It's time to give Case Keenum his due

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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by John_Viveiros » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:49 am

I love Teddy's movement in the pocket, but there was an article this week or last that looked at how Case moved in the pocket, and it was really impressive - maybe better than Teddy. And a really small percentage of pressures leads to sacks for Case. Much below the NFL average (IIRC something like a third as many?). No negative plays in the passing game - huge advantage for this team.

That said, I still think I'd rather go with Teddy long term than Case. Just my feeling. I can see why (8 in a row) you could feel differently though, because I'm a believer that QB's (but not necessarily their stats - see Stafford, Matthew) have an outsized effect on wins and losses.

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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:37 am

PurpleKoolaid wrote: Great speculation, its a free forum. How about a few facts? Like Teddy has NEVER seen this type of an offense, and its not because of Case. Its the new Oline, Pat Shurmur, and the receivers making fantastic plays. Or do you think Teddys Oline, OC, and receivers were better?
How about a few facts? This is a serious question? Did you read the article? It's far from the first I've posted, but it's the best. Did you read it?

What you've given aren't facts. The idea that Teddy would be doing just as well as Case is speculative opinion on your part. I've supported the idea that Case Keenum might actually be evolving into a pretty darned good quarterback with numbers, with film study, and with analysis. You want facts? READ.

We can play this game all day. There is only one proof to me, and that's what happens on the field. If Case Keenum screws this up, I will admit I was wrong. At what point will you do the same? At what point will you stop attributing this man's success to his receivers, offensive line, coach, karma, luck and horseshoes? If he finishes the season 14-2 with 7 straight QBRs of more than 100, will you admit you're wrong about this guy? What's it going to take?

I think I already know the answer.
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by Cliff » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:51 am

I'm a Teddy guy. The guy is damn near a hero in my home town. I think Teddy has the ability to be the better quarterback. What he "might" be doesn't matter to me at this moment though. Not in 2017 because we don't have a "might" in 2017. What we have in 2017 is one of the best QBs in the league.

What does it matter what Case was in the past? What Case is right now is one of the top QBs in the league. He's playing at Tom Brady levels - statwise he's playing better. Forget who it is, why would you bench anybody putting in games like he is?
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by Just Me » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:59 am

Kapp,

Just a question: (Not to take away from or disagree with your point) Why did they use the 36 game number as a 'benchmark'?
I always get cautious when I look at stats and I don't know the rationale for the number(s) chosen.
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:27 am

Just Me wrote:Kapp,

Just a question: (Not to take away from or disagree with your point) Why did they use the 36 game number as a 'benchmark'?
I always get cautious when I look at stats and I don't know the rationale for the number(s) chosen.
I think it's an analyst thing. Maybe a coach thing. It's what they say is an appropriate number of games to gauge whether a quarterback is going to be a dependable starter.

Beyond that, I'm not sure.

Right now, Keenum has started 34 games in his career -- he had 25 starts before he came to the Vikings. Teddy has started 29, including the playoff game against Seattle in '15. Part of the reason I am optimistic about Case's future is that he has gone through games 27-34 with steady (spectacular) upward improvement. I don't believe it's just luck. I believe it's progression. He went from mid-70s in Houston to about 80 with L.A. to over 98 with the Vikings. No doubt, I could be wrong. But until Case's play warrants otherwise, that's where my opinion is.

And the more he plays well, the more my tolerance level for a sub-par performance grows. Even Tom Brady has bad games. But with Tom, you tolerate one bad performance because he's going to give you 10 brilliant ones. Case isn't at that level, obviously. But the more he plays well, the more my tolerance grows. One bad game -- keep him in there and see if he can bounce back. Two in a row, consider a switch.
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:34 am

Cliff wrote:I'm a Teddy guy. The guy is damn near a hero in my home town. I think Teddy has the ability to be the better quarterback. What he "might" be doesn't matter to me at this moment though. Not in 2017 because we don't have a "might" in 2017. What we have in 2017 is one of the best QBs in the league.

What does it matter what Case was in the past? What Case is right now is one of the top QBs in the league. He's playing at Tom Brady levels - statwise he's playing better. Forget who it is, why would you bench anybody putting in games like he is?
It may not always sound like it, but I'm the same as you, Cliff.

I love Teddy Bridgewater. And he should be darned near a hero. What he's gone through and come back from ... it's incredible. And if he ends up being the Vikings QB long-term, I'll be fine with that because he will have earned it. Even though Zimmer loves the guy like a son, I truly believe he'll only make Teddy the long-term guy if he earns it. I trust Zimmer.

Right now, though, we're starting one of the best quarterbacks in the entire NFL, based on his recent performance. His last four games have only been matched in Vikings history over such as stretch by Brett Favre in 2009, who had an incredible four-game stretch in November of 2009. He's got to be the guy until he proves otherwise.
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:00 pm

Cliff wrote:I'm a Teddy guy. The guy is damn near a hero in my home town. I think Teddy has the ability to be the better quarterback. What he "might" be doesn't matter to me at this moment though. Not in 2017 because we don't have a "might" in 2017. What we have in 2017 is one of the best QBs in the league.

What does it matter what Case was in the past? What Case is right now is one of the top QBs in the league. He's playing at Tom Brady levels - statwise he's playing better. Forget who it is, why would you bench anybody putting in games like he is?
Right now, I dont think anyone is saying to bench Case and play Teddy. At least I havent seen anyone post it. I havent even heard anyone say it in weeks. Case is on a roll, and doing very little wrong. Even Zimmer had to eat his words, and stay with the hot QB. My posts have mainly been about it not being any more speculative saying Teddy could have the Vikings in the same position as Case has, then it is to say there no way Teddy could do the same thing. And then they bring up how Teddy did when he was the starting QB. Its almost an entirely different team. I do like Teddy, but im perfectly happy with Case doing well. If we can keep it up for December, we will surely be in the playoffs, and that what any fan wants at the beginning of the season.

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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by Cliff » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:22 pm

PurpleKoolaid wrote: Right now, I dont think anyone is saying to bench Case and play Teddy. At least I havent seen anyone post it. I havent even heard anyone say it in weeks. Case is on a roll, and doing very little wrong. Even Zimmer had to eat his words, and stay with the hot QB. My posts have mainly been about it not being any more speculative saying Teddy could have the Vikings in the same position as Case has, then it is to say there no way Teddy could do the same thing. And then they bring up how Teddy did when he was the starting QB. Its almost an entirely different team. I do like Teddy, but im perfectly happy with Case doing well. If we can keep it up for December, we will surely be in the playoffs, and that what any fan wants at the beginning of the season.
I guess I'm just a little confused then. We're posting in a topic about why Case Keenum is doing awesome and deserves recognition this season ... where does Teddy come in if you're not talking about starting him this season?
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by 808vikingsfan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:57 pm

Cliff wrote:I guess I'm just a little confused then. We're posting in a topic about why Case Keenum is doing awesome and deserves recognition this season ... where does Teddy come in if you're not talking about starting him this season?
I believe it's because of these posts in this thread and that no one except PurpleKoolaid had defended Teddy.
Didn't Zimmer at one point last year or the year before basically say that he will sink or swim with Teddy? I'm pretty certain he did. With that said, maybe not cementing Case as the starter for the rest of the season is keeping him on his toes week to week. I agree, he should be named the starter, but in some odd way maybe he would become a little complacent. I don't care about feel good stories, or the fact that Teddy is a nice guy, I want the team to win and Case gives them the best opportunity this season. To plug a guy into an offense during a 9-2 season who hasn't played a meaningful game in ages in lunacy. He wasn't any good before, so I've never understood the optimism with Teddy (nobody has any idea of the after effects of the knee injury as far as mentally).
I really miss Bridgewater's consistent 200 yard or less throwing performances with an average of 1 TD a week (or less) as a career average. Can't want to get him back in the lineup. All you Teddy lovers will get what you want because we won't resign Sam or Case and take Teddy on the cheap (with that said, whatever we do pay him it is too much). I would offer Case a 3 or 4 year extension right now.
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by 808vikingsfan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:13 pm

Vikings quarterback Case Keenum was so good, he made and broke coaching careers at Houston

“I can remember vividly an NFL scout telling me, ‘If Case was 2 inches taller, he would be drafted in the first round,’ ” Levine said. “And the other thing you always heard was, ‘He’s a system quarterback.’

“They tried to come up with every reason they could to ignore the stats he had and the games he won. Whenever I talked to someone from the NFL, I would say, ‘Those stats and wins … they were not by accident.’ ”

The Houston system was first installed by Dana Holgorsen and then added to by Kliff Kingsbury. Holgorsen is now the head coach at West Virginia and Kingsbury at Texas Tech.

The Cougars generally played with four receivers, one running back and no tight ends. It wasn’t all quick read passes. Far from it.

“Case threw short, midrange and deep,’’ Levine said. “He loved to throw deep, as you’ve seen with the Vikings.

“I didn’t recruit him, but he has all the things you look for as a recruiter. He has the arm, the mobility in the pocket, and also the poise and natural leadership. His dad is a famous high school coach in Texas, and you could tell right away that he’s a coach’s kid
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by mosscarter » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:10 pm

The fact that people are even mentioning Bridgewater is laughable. Keenum is the MVP of the entire NFL.

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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by John_Viveiros » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:10 am

mosscarter wrote:The fact that people are even mentioning Bridgewater is laughable. Keenum is the MVP of the entire NFL.
I think using the term "laughable" is pretty inflammatory. Both guys are great QB's and Case probably deserves more MVP consideration than he's getting because he missed a game and a half of stats, so his league rankings are artificially low.

But I think we all realize that the 2015 offense under Norv and with Adrian Peterson was not a QB-friendly system, certainly not for piling up TD stats, because Peterson was getting all the shots to score. And the offense was so boooooorrrrrrriiiinnnnnggggg and predictable. Shurmer has done an incredible job - maybe the best OC work since Billick, and Billick maybe was getting credit for the work of Moss, Carter, Reed, and Smith as offensive weapons, because he certainly couldn't reproduce that kind of offense in Baltimore.

Reading between the lines, which you can disagree with if you want, Mike Zimmer seemed to early-on look for a reason to play Teddy. Maybe it was favoritism, but my thought was that Teddy actually looked a little better in practices. But Case is performing at a near MVP level in games, under pressure, with live rushers coming at him. And while Teddy is historically a great pressure QB, it's hard to imagine a Vikings QB playing better than Case is in this stretch of games against playoff contenders, especially with him knowing that one bad game could send him to the bench. Starting in your first NFC Championship game (God willing) would be incredible pressure for one of these guys, so knowing that Case (or Teddy, based on prior work) is passing that test with flying colors is pretty satisfying.

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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by dead_poet » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:44 am

mosscarter wrote:The fact that people are even mentioning Bridgewater is laughable. Keenum is the MVP of the entire NFL.
Russel Wilson may have something to say about that.
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by Cliff » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:02 am

808vikingsfan wrote: I believe it's because of these posts in this thread and that no one except PurpleKoolaid had defended Teddy.
That's fair and Kapp actually mentions him immediately in the post (though not necessarily to debate whether or not he should be in the starter in the future, I don't think). It just seemed weird to be defending Keenum in a post dedicated to praising Keenum lol
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by 720pete » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:33 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: You know what annoys me? Every so-called "expert" out there telling me it's simply a matter of time before midnight strikes and Case Keenum turns back into a pumpkin. I'm tired of people assuming that because he was a pedestrian quarterback for the Rams, he'll always be a pedestrian quarterback.


I believe fully that if Teddy Bridgewater replaces Case Keenum at any point this season, we're finished. We will not win the Super Bowl.

For one reason, there is no way that Teddy can get up to speed with this offense to the degree that this team needs to win a Super Bowl. Not in four weeks. But the biggest reason is that there is absolutely no way that Bridgewater can lift his play to the championship level Keenum has shown us over the past several weeks. As a matter of fact, Teddy has NEVER played at that level -- at any point in his career. Teddy Bridgewater would have to put up a 100+ QBR in 5 of his next 7 games just to equal what Case has done in his career. Now all of a sudden, after nearly two full years of not taking a single snap in a regular-season game, he's going to put up those kinds of numbers? I like Teddy. But the truth is staring us all right in the face. This has the potential to be Kurt Warner all over again, and you want to go back to Trent Green.
I agree completely, 100%.

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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by mansquatch » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:56 am

I said this in the Teddy thread: Case IS putting up numbers that will likely tickle a 4,000 yard season when it is all said and done. Note that this is on 14/1/2 games. He didn't play the 1st half against CHI, and he didn't play in week 1. You might even argue it is 13 1/2 games since the game vs. PIT he wasn't taking full practice snaps and was coming in as a true backup.

Additionally, this week is the last game of the season against a statistically tough defense, so barring some serious stupidity on his part or some crazy uncharacteristic mistakes by our WR, it is highly likely he'll be a single digit INT QB when it is all said and done.

TLDR Version: He is playing like an MVP caliber QB. Use your eyes and watch him play instead of relying on old stats with other teams and over inflated media blowhards.

Also, look not only at the record, but the quality of the wins. We are not winning games on luck or with last minute heroics. How many games have we had this season where it felt like it could go either way? maybe 2 or 3? That is the sign of a truly elite team and not a wanna be. Keenum is a big part of the offensive part of that equation.

The bottom line is Case IS doing it. We hoped leading into 2016 that Teddy MIGHT be able to do it. Why one would trade hope for reality is beyond me?

FWIW, I hope they make Pat Shurmer the highest paid OC in the league. Whatever they are doing, this coaching staff has found a winning formula and winning group of guys. They need to keep it together.
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by TheCoolerOne » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:18 pm

It seems like the stance that Bridgewater would come in and kill it is predominately speculative, some basis on a handful of statistics from two years ago, so it would be no less valid than the stance that he would come in and play poorly.

Okay so he's never had the offensive line, coordinator, talent, etc., etc., like he would have this year. That's all definitely true, but that doesn't just make him throw 350 yards and four touchdowns. If Bridgewater came in Sunday and threw three picks and otherwise looked lost, the only argument those in his corner could fall back on is the one that they used to elevate him to automatic success. "Well he only played so poorly because he's not used to this coordinator, talent, offensive line." You'd end up having to circle back around to justify any bad performance he puts in.

I lurk around here and Daily Norsemen and various other places during the season, and being more of an outsider looking in when it comes to the discussion about Bridgewater, there seems to be a definite blurring of the line between him being a good man and a good player. Not that it means anything to y'all, but my brother and I call it the Honorable Man Syndrome. Because H.M. Bridgewater works hard, gives his time back to the community, has a great personality, says all the right things, and Zimmer really likes him, it is perceived that that automatically translates onto the field.

When I see things like "It isn't fair to say Bridgewater..", whether or not my position means anything to anyone, I feel that it validates the blurring of the line I continue to see. Fair doesn't play in discussions like this, to me, anyway.

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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by VikingLord » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:55 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:If Case Keenum screws this up, I will admit I was wrong.
I wouldn't admit anything because even if he screws it up somehow, that doesn't take away from what he's accomplished. You could make a real argument that he's been the best QB in the NFL this year. Not the best QB on the Vikings - in the whole NFL.

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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by VikingLord » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:01 pm

dead_poet wrote: Russel Wilson may have something to say about that.
I agree. Case is doing well but he's not alone, either in terms of the MVP or in terms of the overall success of his team. There seem to be a few players who make compelling arguments to be the MVP at this point.

With that said, it doesn't matter if Case gets MVP, and to be honest, I don't think he will sniff it in the end. Not because he doesn't merit serious consideration, but more because he lacks the name recognition and past successes of the guys he'll be up against.

Now, win a Superbowl (and better yet, win it convincingly), and that conversation will change in a hurry.

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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by 808vikingsfan » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:02 pm

VikingLord wrote: I wouldn't admit anything because even if he screws it up somehow, that doesn't take away from what he's accomplished. You could make a real argument that he's been the best QB in the NFL this year. Not the best QB on the Vikings - in the whole NFL.

After watching Brees, Stafford, and Ryan x2, It would be tough to argue. Except for Wilson and Wentz, I have yet to watch another QB that I've been really impressed with this year.

Although, it doesn't mean Case can't play better. If he starts hitting those big opportunities (missed Thielen twice vs ATL for TDs), the Vikings would be almost unstoppable.
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by PurpleMustReign » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:32 pm

Brees is having an outstanding year. Brady is too, as usual. I would put Case in top 5 for the year.

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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:02 pm

PurpleMustReign wrote:Brees is having an outstanding year. Brady is too, as usual. I would put Case in top 5 for the year.

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I thought the crew on Good Morning Football put it really well.

If this were the Heisman Trophy, Case Keenum would be invited to the Downtown Athletic Club. He might not win the trophy, but he'd definitely be a finalist. I think that's fair.
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by hardrock » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:50 pm

Hello, guys, This is my first post, however , I've been around a while. This is a great board and a lot of FB knowledge. I'm a Sam fan and I wish the best for all three QB's.

How long has it been since the Vikings have been 11-3? Case deserves his day and even talk about either Teddy or Sam replacing him is really surprising.

He needs to know that a down game will not be his end. He has proved that he is the QB now and in the future because, IMO he has earned the right on the field. Who has done better?

:appl:

Great board!

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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by Angels Wings » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:04 am

No doubt he deserves his due. He has played well
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by jackal » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:12 am

I will be honest I wanted Sam as our starter for the future.

He was way better QB than Teddy

If I were the GM I would move on from Teddy
and Sam I don’t think either could stay healthy
for a season.

I would draft a back up and or someone to
compete for future starting spot1-3 years
down the road.
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by germannorseman » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:39 am

jackal wrote:I will be honest I wanted Sam as our starter for the future.

He was way better QB than Teddy

If I were the GM I would move on from Teddy
and Sam I don’t think either could stay healthy
for a season.

I would draft a back up and or someone to
compete for future starting spot1-3 years
down the road.
I too was a Bradford fan and wanted him as our starter. He showed what he could do before he was injured. Now I am a Keenan fan. I do think we need to move on from Bradford. He just can't do it. Too fragile, he'll never get a team through a Superbowl. Bridgwater I'm not ready to let go of yet. At this point Case is the guy for me and for next year at least to see if he's for real or just a one season wonder. Teddy needs to be ready for next year just in case. But I do support whole heartedly looking at a QB next year if there are any worth taking. If Case is a one year wonder and Teddy can't cut it I don't want us completely floundering and wishing we had a QB again. It's been a long hard haul on that front and I don't want to see it continue.

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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by PurpleKoolaid » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:04 pm

Case has earned my respect. Heck, he was darn near perfect Sunday, 20/23, thats pretty damn good. And he knows to look for Kyle in the endzone. I cant believe teams let Kyle get open like that. If we have both Case and Teddy next year, I would bet Case wins the starting job hands down. He also has the respect of his teammates. I know a lot of fans are crazy over Teddy, I am as well, but Case has proved hes more then a backup here. And Im pretty sure his knees are both good.

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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by 808vikingsfan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:27 pm

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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:23 pm

PurpleKoolaid wrote:Case has earned my respect. Heck, he was darn near perfect Sunday, 20/23, thats pretty damn good. And he knows to look for Kyle in the endzone. I cant believe teams let Kyle get open like that. If we have both Case and Teddy next year, I would bet Case wins the starting job hands down. He also has the respect of his teammates. I know a lot of fans are crazy over Teddy, I am as well, but Case has proved hes more then a backup here. And Im pretty sure his knees are both good.
Holy cow, dude. Ton of respect to you for that admission. I know you're a great fan of Teddy. I'm a fan, too, but I came to your conclusion regarding Keenum about 3 weeks ago. We've just had different timing.

I keep going back to Drew Brees. About the same size. Not undrafted, but not a first-rounder, either. Slow start to his career -- the numbers for Brees' first 25 starts are actually worse than Keenum's. The key for Brees, though, was that he had steadily improving numbers over those 25 games -- Case has, too. Brees found his stride after getting with the right coach in Sean Payton. Keenum seems to have found his magic with Shurmur.

Not saying Case Keenum is the next Drew Brees. But there are a ton of commonalities. Case has 7 games of 100+ passer rating this year, and 5 of the past 6. He's an eyelash from a 100 rating for the year. It's the very definition of a breakout season.

Will it continue? I hope so. And I hope he's wearing The Purple when it does.
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Re: It's time to give Case Keenum his due

Post by Just Me » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:23 am

Just to throw "another log on the fire":

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2017/12/1 ... m-its-time

Keenum has expressed a desire to stay in Minnesota
We’d love to stay,” Case says.
“We would,” Kimberly echoes.
“The first six or eight months we’ve been here, it’s been great,” Case says. “We understand how the NFL works, but we love it here. We love the city, love the people here, love the organization.”

And why wouldn’t they.
Keenum has had easily the best season of his pro career. Here is where he ranks in key QB metrics after week 15:

Completion %: 67.9% (2nd)
Passer Rating: 98.9 (tied 7th)
ANY/A: 7.19 (7th)
INT %: 1.6% (tied 5th lowest)
Sack %: 3.83% (5th)
All of those metrics also exceed Tom Brady’s career averages, despite Keenum playing on a new team, with unfamiliar receivers, and a new scheme.
Since the bye week, he also is ahead of Brady in every meaningful statistic except total passing yardage. Keenum has 1609 vs Brady's 1622 (a mere thirteen yard differential).


(More info at the link)
I've told people a million times not to exaggerate!

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