Not elite

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Boon
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Re: Not elite

Post by Boon »

Laserman wrote:hard to say you have a dominant defense when game after game teams drive the ball down the field. While we are a good defense with a lot of talent in many places, we are not dominant very often. When people say Dominant I think of 85 bears, 2000 Ravens, 69 Vikings, 69 chiefs, 70s Steelers.
again, coming into this game they were third in the nfl in total defense, behind carolina and the jags, this completely horrible game dropped them waaaaay down to #5, clearly the #5 defense in the entire league is bleeding yards to every team all season
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VikingPaul73
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Re: Not elite

Post by VikingPaul73 »

PurpleMustReign wrote:Wasn't the original post about the defense, not about the team?

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk

Yes - I should have made it more clear
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Re: Not elite

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Laserman wrote:hard to say you have a dominant defense when game after game teams drive the ball down the field. While we are a good defense with a lot of talent in many places, we are not dominant very often. When people say Dominant I think of 85 bears, 2000 Ravens, 69 Vikings, 69 chiefs, 70s Steelers.
Except that teams haven't driven the ball down the field game after game.

Today was the first time any team gained more than 344 yards against the Vikings. That includes prevent defense in garbage time. For the five previous games before today, the Vikings had not surrendered more than 276 yards. In the modern NFL, that's pretty much dominant.

You say we don't compare favorably to elite defenses of the past. Well, let's take a look at the one stat that experts use more than any other -- yards per play allowed. We came into today tied for first in the NFL for the fewest yards per play allowed at just 4.6. In addition, that's 0.7 ypp below league average of 5.3. In 2000, the Baltimore Ravens gave up 4.3 yards per play, but league average was only 5.0 -- exactly the same 0.7 differential. In 1985, the Bears gave up 4.4 compared to 5.0 -- that's even less of a differential. Ironically, the one team your statement holds true for, at least using this metric, is the '69 Vikings, who gave up a ridiculous 3.4 yards per play, about 1.4 yards below league average.

So tell me ... what's elite? What's dominant? It's all relative, isn't it? And again, those terms just don't mean much when you're winning.

Here's something else that shows today was an outlier. The Redskins won time of possession easily today, and had the ball for 73 plays to our 60. Yet we scored 38 points, and virtually all of it because the offense scored quickly and scored often. How often does that happen to us? Normally when teams move up and down the field, they also give up more yards because the other team has more opportunities. Even so, we gained more than a half yard per play more than Washington did.

In a nutshell, we had a pretty bad game on defense, yet the offense put up 38 and we won on the road. So if y'all want to say the defense isn't elite, that's cool. As long as we keep winning, I'd say it's plenty good enough.
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Not elite

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

808vikingsfan wrote:
Elite is just a label. I wouldnt put too much energy into it. This D is good enough to get to the SB IMO. Sometimes, games like this happen.
Agreed. But when fans say elite defense "don't have these kinds of games" is completely false. The 2000 ravens for example gave up 36 points to the Jags and Brunell threw all over them. Threw for 386 and 3 tds to be exact. A much better game than cousins played. They were down 17-0 after the first quarter. So let's get past that point trying to be proven because it's false.

We have an excellent defense. Maybe not that picky word "elite" but it's very good. And let's no forget if it wasn't for keenums 2 dumb picks, that's 10 less points for Washington.

Either way, elite defenses give up points and DO have games like this. It's happened many of times. Not saying ours is elite but I don't believe it's far off. No less we were without our best pass rusher. This defense is a SB defense. There is zero questioning that so why is this even a thread because a SB is all that matters
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Re: Not elite L

Post by Raptorman »

Let's take a look at this. The New England Patriots defense has been great since Belicheat took over. How good? Well since he took over the Pats defense has held other teams to an average of 18.85 points per game. Last year out of the 19 games they played they held their opponents to 17 points per game or less 13 times. And you know what, they had a game were they gave up 31 and another they gave up 28. It happens. 2000 Baltimore Ravens, averaged 10.5 points per game. Yet they had one game were the Jags scored 36 points on them. In the other 15 games the Ravens averaged 8.6 ppg on defense. I'm not worried about one game. Or even 2 or 3. It's going to happen. If you win half of those games you are doing well.

Since 1966.

Teams that have given up 17 points per game or less win 70% of the time.
Teams that have given up 17.1 to 21 points per game win 56% of the time.
Teams that have given up 21.1 to 24 points per game win 42% of the time.
Teams that have given up more than 24.1 points per game win 31% of the time.
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Re: Not elite

Post by S197 »

As long as this isn't a trend, I don't care. Also, at least one TD was on Keenum so not all the points were on the D.
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Re: Not elite

Post by mansquatch »

Definitely their worst defensive performance of the year, but they were playing without their best pass rusher and Rhodes was hobbled in the 2nd half.

Personally I'm glad they had a game like this. The offense bailed out the defense in this game and kept the pressure on. That hasn't happened in a game in a LONG time.

This team has guts, and it is beat a decent opponent on the road. That is something we can hang our hats on. WSH is easily a top half team in the NFL and might just squeak into the top 10. They beat SEA in SEA last week, no small feat. We just beat them in their own house. Great win and puts the Vikings on the road to proving they are more than just a result of a soft first half schedule.

The Ram are this week. I suspect if we beat them we'll start getting a lot of national attention. Ironically, the team we just beat had already beaten the Rams, but that is the sports media for you.
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Re: Not elite

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

mansquatch wrote:Definitely their worst defensive performance of the year, but they were playing without their best pass rusher and Rhodes was hobbled in the 2nd half.

Personally I'm glad they had a game like this. The offense bailed out the defense in this game and kept the pressure on. That hasn't happened in a game in a LONG time.

This team has guts, and it is beat a decent opponent on the road. That is something we can hang our hats on. WSH is easily a top half team in the NFL and might just squeak into the top 10. They beat SEA in SEA last week, no small feat. We just beat them in their own house. Great win and puts the Vikings on the road to proving they are more than just a result of a soft first half schedule.

The Ram are this week. I suspect if we beat them we'll start getting a lot of national attention. Ironically, the team we just beat had already beaten the Rams, but that is the sports media for you.
Interesting take here.

Before the Washington game, Mike Florio wrote that the Redskins are better than 4-4, and the Vikings are worse than 6-2. He continued, "It's correction Sunday in Washington." I can't wait to see what Florio has to say now. Nothing makes me happier than a national talking head being forced to eat his words, especially about the Vikings.

If we beat the Rams this coming Sunday, there is no doubt that the Minnesota Vikings HAVE to be part of the Super Bowl conversation. Maybe not the favorite -- that's likely still going to be Philadelphia. But in the conversation.
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Re: Not elite

Post by cmoss84 »

This defense might give up a nice drive or two throughout the game...and garbage yards and points at the end, but I really like them. They have a sense of nastiness to them-they hit hard (not that I want them to injure opposing players, but is seems like it happens a lot). Even when we don't pick up multiple sacks, it seems as though we are putting a good amount of pressure on opposing QBs. They are fun to watch, most of the time. Elite? Probably not. But they are capable of shutting any team down at any time and making a big play at any time (maybe that does qualify them as elite?).
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Re: Not elite

Post by mansquatch »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: If we beat the Rams this coming Sunday, there is no doubt that the Minnesota Vikings HAVE to be part of the Super Bowl conversation. Maybe not the favorite -- that's likely still going to be Philadelphia. But in the conversation.

Irrespective of whether it is right or wrong, we are starting a backup QB who has done nothing prior to this year. We also play in flyover country and up until yesterday the only big win on your schedule was week 1 when our starting QB was still healthy. In that respect it makes sense that we haven't been at the forefront of the NFC conversation.

Also, you have to consider the Sports Media itself: East Coast bias is a thing. So is the cult of the QB. We fail both of those tests. However, who cares? These are the same lemmings who thought GB was a SB team and think DAL is a contender. in both cases the flaws were easy to see if you watched them play. Maybe the tests aren't that accurate?

Enjoy the ride, in about 10 days we'll know if we are a legitimate threat in the playoffs. I predict 9-2 and belly full of Turkey, but I'm an optimist.

The scary thing is if the offense keeps playing like it did on Saturday and the defense rebounds 11-2 isn't out of the question. I'm thinking the entire playoffs go through US Bank. :govikes:
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Re: Not elite

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

mansquatch wrote:
Irrespective of whether it is right or wrong, we are starting a backup QB who has done nothing prior to this year. We also play in flyover country and up until yesterday the only big win on your schedule was week 1 when our starting QB was still healthy. In that respect it makes sense that we haven't been at the forefront of the NFC conversation.

Also, you have to consider the Sports Media itself: East Coast bias is a thing. So is the cult of the QB. We fail both of those tests. However, who cares? These are the same lemmings who thought GB was a SB team and think DAL is a contender. in both cases the flaws were easy to see if you watched them play. Maybe the tests aren't that accurate?

Enjoy the ride, in about 10 days we'll know if we are a legitimate threat in the playoffs. I predict 9-2 and belly full of Turkey, but I'm an optimist.

The scary thing is if the offense keeps playing like it did on Saturday and the defense rebounds 11-2 isn't out of the question. I'm thinking the entire playoffs go through US Bank. :govikes:
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Re: Not elite

Post by Cliff »

Really we're starting our 3rd string QB, aren't we? Lol
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VikingLord
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Re: Not elite

Post by VikingLord »

Would I like to see the defense lock teams down every game? Of course. Is that necessary for them to win every game? I hope not.

Let's put it this way - it's a team game with 3 phases, any of which can win, or lose, a game. While one phase can be consistently overwhelming and make up for flaws in the other two, in terms of winning and being able to win, the best teams can win in all three phases and can make up for bad games by one or even two of the phases.

Also, while the defense did struggle, they also came up big on a few 4th downs (Redskins had to go for it 4th five times in the game) and did a good job of getting off the field on 3rd down for the most part. It's really the big plays by the Redskins through the air and some of the failure to consistently stop the run that stood out from a defensive standpoint. Obviously, they'll want to button that up and not make a habit out of allowing that to happen again, but the offense and Forbath more than made up for it.
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Re: Not elite

Post by Just Me »

I started thinking about our defense (elite is just a subjective label IMHO) and wondered whether or not 1 game could (or should) make a difference in that assessment. I looked at last year's number 1 (source) defense 15.6 points per game (New England) and decided to look at individual games during the 2016 season.

Guess what I found? In the ninth game of the 2016 season, coming out of a bye week, the Patriots (who normally were solid on defense) gave up 31 points to a Seattle Seahawks team that was only ranked 18th in offense. (if you're curious - Washington currently ranks #12 in offense). My point is that if by the standards we are looking at (giving up 30 points in a single game) somehow knocks a team out of this category, then the #1 defense last year doesn't fit the moniker of 'elite' either.
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Re: Not elite

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Just Me wrote:I started thinking about our defense (elite is just a subjective label IMHO) and wondered whether or not 1 game could (or should) make a difference in that assessment. I looked at last year's number 1 (source) defense 15.6 points per game (New England) and decided to look at individual games during the 2016 season.

Guess what I found? In the ninth game of the 2016 season, coming out of a bye week, the Patriots (who normally were solid on defense) gave up 31 points to a Seattle Seahawks team that was only ranked 18th in offense. (if you're curious - Washington currently ranks #12 in offense). My point is that if by the standards we are looking at (giving up 30 points in a single game) somehow knocks a team out of this category, then the #1 defense last year doesn't fit the moniker of 'elite' either.
Let's take a look at some of the great defenses in NFL history
• In 2000, the Ravens gave up 36 to Jacksonville.
• In 1985, the Bears gave up 38 to the Dolphins.
• In 1976, the Pittsburgh Steelers gave up 30 to the Patriots.
• In 1971, our own Minnesota Vikings, one of the truly great defenses of all time (only 9.9 ppg allowed), gave up 30 to the 6-8 San Diego Chargers.

It is not unprecedented for a great defense to have a bad day.

And here's something of note. Of all the games listed above, only one of them resulted in a win for the defense that had a bad day. We won against Washington. I'm good with that.

(Fun note that I didn't know: The '71 Vikings had 57 takeaways in 14 games ... 27 interceptions and 30 fumbles recovered. Unbelievable!)
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