Win against the Saints is a must because.......

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Nunin
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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by Nunin » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:15 am

I forgot and wanted to add to my rambling take that for me, the bigger part of coaching o-line, at the pro-level, is scheme and adjustments. Moving guys to help and mixing protection to nullify what the defense is doing.
If you have a draft pick who has several years of organised ball on the line (high school/college) under his belt and he has to be coddled in the hand fighting/fundamental department....it's a bad pick IMO. A real prospect will pick up that stuff fast or already have it down to a certain degree. The larger task will be schooling them on pro pace, specific defenders, strength building and schemes.
It's why so many rookies can start in this league and be assets immediately. Kalil, for example.
Picking lineman based on measurables and potential is wreckless.....which is what the Clemmings pick was all about.
Guy had 1 season of experience total.
Totally bizzare thinking there for a pro system IMO.
Hopefully that's all i have to say about that. It's not like I know for reals what I'm talking about, obviously I have never coached an o-line. Just my opinion based on my observations...which have been exaccerbated over the past 5-7 years due to the flow of inequity the vikes have had between their investments and on field results.
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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by autobon7 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:35 am

Nunin wrote:I forgot and wanted to add to my rambling take that for me, the bigger part of coaching o-line, at the pro-level, is scheme and adjustments. Moving guys to help and mixing protection to nullify what the defense is doing.
If you have a draft pick who has several years of organised ball on the line (high school/college) under his belt and he has to be coddled in the hand fighting/fundamental department....it's a bad pick IMO. A real prospect will pick up that stuff fast or already have it down to a certain degree. The larger task will be schooling them on pro pace, specific defenders, strength building and schemes.
It's why so many rookies can start in this league and be assets immediately. Kalil, for example.
Picking lineman based on measurables and potential is wreckless.....which is what the Clemmings pick was all about.
Guy had 1 season of experience total.
Totally bizzare thinking there for a pro system IMO.
Hopefully that's all i have to say about that. It's not like I know for reals what I'm talking about, obviously I have never coached an o-line. Just my opinion based on my observations...which have been exaccerbated over the past 5-7 years due to the flow of inequity the vikes have had between their investments and on field results.
Very good points made Nunin. Completely agree with the Clemmings pick.....what were they thinking? That was a complete wiff. This season will be a prove-it season for sure.....just can't afford to start out 0-1. 0-1 very well could spell 0-2 since they will travel to Pit week two. Like I said I want to see an aggressive sense of urgency out of the gate and that goes for players and coaching. Even if that means taking a couple/few more chances each game.
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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by autobon7 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:52 am

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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by mansquatch » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:44 am

DP this is a rare moment where i slightly disagree with your take. I think you need to look at the recent hit rates, ie before and after the practice changes went into effect. I suspect that after the hit rate is lower. The Vikings are not the only team having the same problem.

However, right now there is an opportunity in the NFL for OL coaches to contribute in a big way to their team's success. Unfortunately the Vikings haven't yet been able to make that happen.


Also, for the guy saying its going to be bad because we are already talking about this, we haven't played a game yet. No one except maybe the Vikings coaching staff knows where we are at with the OL.
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:11 pm

dead_poet wrote: But have they? In the past 10 years they have selected 7 offensive linemen in the top four rounds. In the same time period the Vikings have selected 5 in the top four rounds. If you just compare top two rounds, those numbers are 3 and 2, respectively. They've committed a bit more to the offensive line and it's paid off. Though not necessarily in Super Bowls...so maybe not really.

Comparatively, the Cowboys have spent 25 picks on defense in the first four rounds. The Vikings spent 20 picks on defense the first four rounds in the last 10 years.
As stated above, the Vikings have spent fewer picks on defense than the Cowboys in the last decade. The difference is the Cowboys have lucked out and picked high-round guys that turned out (and stayed good/uninjured) on the offensive line. We seemed to have performed better at that on the defensive side of the ball (with fewer high/mid-round picks to boot!).
Ugh. Those were rough days indeed.

(I loved Mewelde! He was a jack-of-all-trades in the Sproles vein.)
I agree with a lot of this DP. I said something similar to this on here last year. It seems like a lot of fans put Dallas' OL up on a pedestal and believe that if ours doesnt look like that or close to that, Spielman/Zimmer dont know what they are doing.

As I have said before and you said as well, we have leaned towards D in the early rounds of the draft instead of OL. Dallas has been the opposite. To me it almost feels like some fans think "Well, we should have draft this LT and this RT and this OG, but COMPLETELY forget that IF we did that and we drafted those offensive lineman, we WOULDNT have players like Rhodes, Barr, Kendricks, etc. And guess what the next gripe would be??? "Spielman doesnt know how to draft LBs", "Spielman cant find a shutdown CB", etc. It's SO easy to sit here and say we shouldve picked Taylor Lewan and Zack Martin and so on but at the time, we also had HUGE holes on defense. No less did everyone really think guys like Martin and Lewan were going to be year to year pro bowlers? No.

Bottom line is, you dont see many teams with the best of both worlds. An elite offense to go with an elite defense. Look at Seattle. Loaded defense with a worse offensive line than ours was. Arizona, same thing. A lot of flopped picks on the OL. The Giants now have a good defense but still have a porous OL.

Do we need to be more balanced? Yes. But to think we should have the best of both worlds at this point is very unrealistic. You cant just plug in great OL and think we would still have everyone we have on this defense.

All in all, I think this OL is much improved. Love the move of Easton to LG (have been a supporter of him for a while), Elf is solid, Berger is solid, Reiff is better than Kalil so thats a plus and Remmers does worry me at times. Either way, it's way better than a year ago. No less, we have two MUCH better RBs.

As for the D, 3 technique worries me. I really want to see Jaleel there. I'm really pushing for Gedeon. Sendejo always makes me nervous but I still feel like we're in very good shape. Although I cant wait to see the first big play made by Drew Brees and hear everyone go "Wow this defense is nowhere near elite, we're doomed, seasons over", etc. Big plays are going to happen with that offense. It's about limiting them. Cant wait for monday night!!! :v):
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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by Hunter Morrow » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:23 pm

If we don't win by at least a touchdown I am off the dark horse SB winner in their own house purple Kool Aid. The New Orleans Saints went 7-9 in 4 of its last 5 seasons, including the last three in a row, for a pretty simple reason: The team just isn't that good. If we are a real deal team we win by at least seven points.
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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by dead_poet » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:38 pm

They're starting a rookie at LT. Griffen should be licking his chops.
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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by S197 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:04 pm

It's no secret talent on the O-line was severely lacking this year and it may be a trend. When is the last time we had to wait 20 picks before an O-lineman was chosen? Or only 2 O-linemen in the 1st round? You usually see 2 within the first five picks.

The combination of bigger and faster pass rushers and the style of college ball has really impacted the ability to find quality linemen.
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halfgiz
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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by halfgiz » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:44 pm

A win againest the Saints will mean we are hungry and want it. Plus it's important because we have another tough game the following week.
I think one of our problems with the team is discipline. I'm not sure who you want to pin that on.
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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by Boon » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:48 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:I get what you're saying, DP. But while Dallas has expended a lot of draft capital on offensive linemen, it has come at the expense of their defense. Let's not forget, they've only won two playoff games THIS CENTURY. They also had the luxury of having the undrafted Tony Romo as their quarterback for the better part of a decade, allowing them to stockpile early-round talent at other positions.

The Vikings, on the other hand, have used most of their recent draft capital on defense. Whether that strategy will ever pay off is up for debate, but it's the choice they've made.

Any time I question our recent drafts, I only have to think back to the dark days of the Red McCombs era to put it in perspective. I swear, the Vikings missed on virtually every draft pick for the better part of 10 years (Adrian Peterson and Chad Greenway being a couple of notable exceptions). Even guys like Sidney Rice (one good season) and Percy Harvin (flake extraordinaire) didn't turn out the way we thought they would. I especially remember 2004 and 2005, when literally the only serviceable player taken was Mewelde Moore.

At least the Wilfs are making an effort.
I wouldn't call moss, kevin williams and B-rob misses

Edit: just to clarify, those three were drafted in the mccombs era and moss is arguably the best receiver to ever step foot on a football field. Kwill is a borderline hall of famer as well
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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by Maelstrom88 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:47 am

dead_poet wrote:They're starting a rookie at LT. Griffen should be licking his chops.
That's where we have to win the game. Stop the short passes and eat up their oline.
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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by mansquatch » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:14 am

Quick release short passes are more about the LB / DL making tackles and maintaining their assignments than the pass rush. Same reason you saw the Vikings employ that type of offense last season, they had no pass protection so they went to an offense that could withstand DE basically running free every down.
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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:35 am

Hunter Morrow wrote:If we don't win by at least a touchdown I am off the dark horse SB winner in their own house purple Kool Aid. The New Orleans Saints went 7-9 in 4 of its last 5 seasons, including the last three in a row, for a pretty simple reason: The team just isn't that good. If we are a real deal team we win by at least seven points.
Lets get this straight before we just say "they arent that good". This is a team with an extremely good offense but had an extremely poor defense. They were 1/2 a team last year. And in turn they were right around .500 because of it. And lets not forget, they had an offseason, free agency and a draft just like we did. And added some solid pieces to their defense. I think that if we contain Brees we win this game. But we all know thats no easy task. But just basing them off a season ago and saying we should win by at least a touchdown isnt really the way to go by it. This is going to be a battle. We need to move the ball on offense against this team (which we should). The key is, can our defense limit the big plays from Brees.
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Norv Zimmer
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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by Norv Zimmer » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:16 pm

I think that if we score more points than them we win easy. We need to run the ball and pass the ball effectively and get into to the end zone scoring TDs. Our defense needs to put pressure on Brees and limit the number of yards and points they put up. Also I think that I am a great football mind. :lol:
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Re: Win against the Saints is a must because.......

Post by Hunter Morrow » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:56 pm

I go back and forth if this is a hard or easy schedule for the Vikings, I am not quite sure? Look at the first six games of the season. They look kinda rough. I think we need to have some positive momentum for a road game against the Steelers. I would suppose the Bears game would be a gimmie but we have only beaten the Bears five times at Soldier Field in the past 20 years. I know they seem like fluke games, but the Lions swept us last year. The Packers have really given us some brutal losses over the years. Tampa Bay can put up points.

Saints-Steelers-Buccaneers-Lions-Bears-Packers looks like the most important stretch of the schedule followed by the last six games. I really don't think this team is going to do anything if it loses to the Saints at home.
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