Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scrutiny

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38292
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 409

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by Mothman »

S197 wrote:The problem is even in a tough year, Zimmer fielded a good defense. Frazier's defense was almost dead last in YPG in his final season. 31st in the league. His secondary holds the NFL record for longest streak without an interception. If he's a victim of circumstance, he wouldn't have failed in Tampa and demoted once again to a positions coach.
If context matters for one coach it matters for the other.
Zimmer is 26-22 as a HC. Frazier was 18-29. How is that even close to the same arc?
What you posted above isn't an arc. It's a pair of W/L totals. The similar arcs are: losing first season—significant improvement and a playoff appearance in season 2— disappointing drop-off in the third year. Note that they are similar, not identical. There are differences and good reasons for those differences which, again, reinforces the importance of context. Simply pointing to W/L totals is the antithesis of providing that context.
There is no double standard. As his record shows, Frazier was not a very good HC. His further demotions since leaving the Vikings provides further evidence he's not a very good DC either. His association with Childress may not have helped but he was let go on his own lack of merit.
Again, you're ignoring the context you say is necessary. He wasn't "demoted" in Tampa Bay. He remained defensive coordinator. Lovie Smith took over the play calling in year 2 which he is notorious for doing. He did it repeatedly in Chicago and to more than one DC, including Ron Rivera (and we all know he can't coach). Frazier spent one season doing a good job as a position coach in Baltimore and he's already a defensive coordinator again. There's no shame in that. After all, there are only so many DC and HC jobs out there at any given time. The man has been steadily employed as an NFL coach for 19 years now. He's obviously respected by his peers.

But now you have me defending Frazier's merits and that's not the point.
As I've already pointed out, there's absolutely no correlation between the trajectories of the two coaches. Believing there is only confirms your own bias.
You're shooting the messenger and I don't think I'm the one demonstrating bias here. There are clear correlations between the two coaches. There are clear differences too but either context matters or doesn't matter. It can't simply be applied where it's convenient and ignored when it's not. Pointing to how injuries impacted one coach but ignoring how they affected the other is unfair. Trashing one coach's team for poor defenses or late game collapses and ignoring similarly significant shortcomings on the other's team is also unfair. Sure, it's terrible that Frazier's defense was 31st in the league in his final season but where's the harsh criticism for Zimmer's offenses finishing #27, #29 and #28 the last 3 years? That's so much better? Does he get a pass because he just wanted to focus on defense? What about last year's running game, which was dead last in the league?
HardcoreVikesFan
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6652
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:28 pm
x 21

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by HardcoreVikesFan »

Great timing on this article by Reusse - given what is happening with Mike Zimmer's health.


Anyway, Zimmer definitely should be held responsible for what happens this season. A losing season is unacceptable. Another 8-8 season, at least in my mind, is also unacceptable.
A Randy Moss fan for life. A Kevin Williams fan for life.
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12790
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 662

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by S197 »

I don't see a lack of context. I stated that a HC is responsible for the entire team. So yes, Zimmer is responsible for the offensive woes. However, at the end of the day it's all about wins and in that respect they are not similar. Frazier was given a lot more flak after year 3 because he had a losing record, Zimmer does not.

The emphasis on the defense is because both were defensive coordinators. Team defense by year:
2011 - #31
2012 - #15
2013 - #32
2014 - #11
2015 - #5
2016 - #6

Those are just the raw numbers but what is the context that needs to be provided that explains two years where the defense is at or near dead last?

Frazier had a tough year when the secondary got decimated. He also greatly benefitted from AD's MVP season in 2012. Net-net I think the rankings are pretty close to where they should be. Factoring everything in, I'd say the Vikings defense in the Frazier era was probably in the bottom quartile of the league. Zimmer's defense, I think top 5 is about right. Certainly top 10.

From my point of view, there's no correlation in terms of performance (wins/losses). There's also no correlation in defense. Really, the only correlation is both coaches had a good second year. But honestly that sort of thing could very well be an anomaly rather than correlation.

I'll say it again, if the team performs poorly and the offense struggles again, Zimmer deserves scrutiny. Right now he's a coach with a winning record and a vastly improved defense. I think with any semblance of an O-line or a healthy AD and this team doesn't go .500 last year. The reason I'm willing to give him more leeway is because I think his body of work shows promise. The reason I gave Frazier more scrutiny is because he looked significantly less promising after year 3. At this point in their respective careers, I just don't see the correlation that should make me treat the two as equal.
User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38292
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 409

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by Mothman »

S197 wrote:I don't see a lack of context. I stated that a HC is responsible for the entire team. So yes, Zimmer is responsible for the offensive woes. However, at the end of the day it's all about wins and in that respect they are not similar. The emphasis on the defense is because both were defensive coordinators.
I figured as much but that shouldn't matter because we're talking about them as head coaches, not defensive coordinators and as we've agreed, that means they were responsible for the entire team.
Those are just the raw numbers but what is the context that needs to be provided that explains two years where the defense is at or near dead last?
Primarily injuries and personnel issues.
Frazier had a tough year when the secondary got decimated. He also greatly benefitted from AD's MVP season in 2012.
Yes, just like Zimmer benefitted from AD's league-leading rushing performance in his only winning season.
From my point of view, there's no correlation in terms of performance (wins/losses). There's also no correlation in defense.
Not on offense either, although I didn't make a correlation in any of those areas, I just pointed out a similarity in the basic arc of their first 3 years. As I've already said, i'm not interested in arguing about whether one coach is better than the other.
I'll say it again, if the team performs poorly and the offense struggles again, Zimmer deserves scrutiny. Right now he's a coach with a winning record and a vastly improved defense.
... and a distinctly inferior offense. That is equally relevant and it certainly seems worthy of scrutiny.
At this point in their respective careers, I just don't see the correlation that should make me treat the two as equal.
It shouldn't require a correlation. That's why there's a double standard. They don't need to be coaches of equal skill or merit to deserve the same level of critical observation and examination. Subtitute Childress or Tice or Green for Frazier and the same thing would be true.
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9771
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1857

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Mothman wrote: Thanks but whether the column is trash or not, the fundamental points it raises are valid, even if people don't think Reusse supported them well. Shooting the messenger just distracts from the message.
But Jim, the message is so obvious that any Vikings fan with half a functioning brain has likely been saying the same thing for the past 6 months. It's like writing, "The sun rises in the east." Wow, Sherlock ... you're a freaking genius!

Note to columnists: Give me something I don't know. Put forth an opinion with a fresh take, and back your opinion with facts.

Just because Reusse is paid to write his opinions doesn't give him license to just bloviate. He's supposed to use his access to players, coaches, executives, etc. to give us something we couldn't come up with on our own. He also has access to virtually every paid statistical service known to man. So to simply state the obvious is lazy journalism. Worse yet, it's boring as hell.
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.
Nunin
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:40 am

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by Nunin »

Kapp's last comment is why I read forums over journalists.
In todays world there is so much access to info that it actually feeds into the lazy journalism practice. It's not just sports either.
The other end is the journalist who just goes over the top all the time just to bait readers.
It's so bad that the people who clamor for some authenticity are actually an overwhelming minority IMO.
Everyone seems more or less distracted by style while oblivious to the lack of substance.
The Kardashianization of the nation...yo.
The off season sucks.
PurpleMustReign
Starting Wide Receiver
Posts: 19150
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:48 pm
Location: Crystal, MN
x 114
Contact:

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by PurpleMustReign »

Nunin wrote:Kapp's last comment is why I read forums over journalists.
In todays world there is so much access to info that it actually feeds into the lazy journalism practice. It's not just sports either.
The other end is the journalist who just goes over the top all the time just to bait readers.
It's so bad that the people who clamor for some authenticity are actually an overwhelming minority IMO.
Everyone seems more or less distracted by style while oblivious to the lack of substance.
The Kardashianization of the nation...yo.
The off season sucks.
That's the one thing I like about Sid Hartman... He used himself, and himself alone, to get his information. He does t sit at a computer all day researching or surfing the net... If he wants info, he goes to th source and gets it.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
The Devil whispered in the Viking's ear, "There's a storm coming." The Viking replied, "I am the storm." ‪#‎SKOL2018
User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38292
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 409

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by Mothman »

J. Kapp 11 wrote:But Jim, the message is so obvious that any Vikings fan with half a functioning brain has likely been saying the same thing for the past 6 months. It's like writing, "The sun rises in the east." Wow, Sherlock ... you're a freaking genius!

Note to columnists: Give me something I don't know. Put forth an opinion with a fresh take, and back your opinion with facts.

Just because Reusse is paid to write his opinions doesn't give him license to just bloviate. He's supposed to use his access to players, coaches, executives, etc. to give us something we couldn't come up with on our own. He also has access to virtually every paid statistical service known to man. So to simply state the obvious is lazy journalism. Worse yet, it's boring as hell.
I understand your complaint but I don't want to keep debating Reusse's merits as a columnist or the merits of this particular column. He just touched on something I wanted to discuss and I've been trying to discuss it. Hopefully my posts have been interesting even if his column wasn't.
mansquatch
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3836
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pm
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
x 117

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by mansquatch »

Frasier's best year on Defense was worse than Zimmer's worst year. How is Zimmer not an improvement?

I'll raise the issue I raised earlier. If you are looking at why they went backward in 2016, you have to answer the question of what role the uncontrollables played. How much of 8-8 was bad leadership and how much was injuries?

It is my opinion, the place where Zimmer under-performed last year was during October, specifically from the bye week through the first loss at DET. After that you can probably sum up the failure in his inability to pull them out of the tank they found themselves in. However, I think the bigger issue was that stretch of weeks in OCT where they tanked in the first place. This is where it is completly fair to get after Zimmer without reservation.

Interestingly, the Packers were in a similar situation last year, and it can reasonably be argued that their best player and not their head coach pulled them out. Who on the Vikings is going to do that for the club in a similar situation? In 2012 that guy was Adrian Petersen. He was hurt last year and now he is a Saint. Who will fill those shoes if they need filling in 2017? Is there someone who can fill those shoes on the team?
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38292
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 409

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by Mothman »

mansquatch wrote:Frasier's best year on Defense was worse than Zimmer's worst year. How is Zimmer not an improvement?
The defense has improved under Zimmer. That's not in dispute.
I'll raise the issue I raised earlier. If you are looking at why they went backward in 2016, you have to answer the question of what role the uncontrollables played. How much of 8-8 was bad leadership and how much was injuries?
It's impossible to quantify.
It is my opinion, the place where Zimmer under-performed last year was during October, specifically from the bye week through the first loss at DET. After that you can probably sum up the failure in his inability to pull them out of the tank they found themselves in. However, I think the bigger issue was that stretch of weeks in OCT where they tanked in the first place. This is where it is completly fair to get after Zimmer without reservation.

Interestingly, the Packers were in a similar situation last year, and it can reasonably be argued that their best player and not their head coach pulled them out. Who on the Vikings is going to do that for the club in a similar situation? In 2012 that guy was Adrian Petersen. He was hurt last year and now he is a Saint. Who will fill those shoes if they need filling in 2017? Is there someone who can fill those shoes on the team?
It's unclear. Someone would have to emerge as that kind of elite difference-maker.
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12790
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 662

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by S197 »

To sort of steer this away from Reusse (although thank you Kapp for succinctly stating what I was having trouble expressing) this is what I think Zimmer was thinking when he took over. No evidence to back any of this up other than what transpired.

Zimmer clearly knows how to run a defense but he more or less gave the keys to Norv delegating his weakness to someone he felt would be able to run the offense. Zimmer focused on the defense and with regards to the team, I think he focused on attitude. Specifically, the mindset of team accolades over individual. Keeping a strong work ethic and holding yourself individually accountable.

After his second season I think he realized that giving Norv unilateral control (with Scott as his right hand) clearly wasn't working so he brought in Shurmur and Pagano, who were supposed to have input in some of the play calling. Power struggle ensues and Norv basically takes his ball and goes home. Based on the way Norv ran the offense, both from a playcalling and personnel perspective, he seemed rather stubborn in his ways.

Looking back on it, I think the mistake Zimmer made was failing to identify Norv is a little too "old school" for the modern NFL. I think he was right to delegate an area outside of his comfort zone but chose the wrong person. Honestly, I don't know if Shurmur will be better, at least he and Bradford go way back so I'm hoping there's some synergy there. Zimmer also needs to start transitioning into a more active role with the offense. He may not need to be calling plays, but he needs to lay out his vision and make sure his coordinators are follow that rather than running their own show.
User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38292
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 409

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by Mothman »

Regarding Turner, it's interesting to note:

Zimmer’s record with Turner as OC: 23-18 (5-2 last season)
Zimmer’s record so far without Turner as OC: 3-6

There are obviously many other factors to consider so attribute whatever meaning to those W/L totals that you choose…
mansquatch
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3836
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pm
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
x 117

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by mansquatch »

I know he is busy telling me my other post is trash, so I'm going to throw this in while he is distracted:

Jimsucksbig
:spanking:
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38292
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 409

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by Mothman »

mansquatch wrote:I know he is busy telling me my other post is trash, so I'm going to throw this in while he is distracted:

Jimsucksbig
:spanking:

I know you're just kidding but I'm not laughing. :( I guess I'm just not in the mood. This whole thread has reinforced how frustrating I'm finding the board these days.

I did read your new post but I didn't trash it.
mansquatch
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3836
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:44 pm
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
x 117

Re: Reusse: Zimmer's leadership of Vikings deserving of scru

Post by mansquatch »

aww, I really was trying to be funny. Sorry.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
Post Reply