Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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Mothman
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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

Post by Mothman »

mansquatch wrote:Let me phrase it a different way:

If the OL is better, the array of plays they have to choose from is probably quite a bit larger than what we saw last year or even in 2015.
They couldn't be more aggressive with a limited number of plays?
Also, in 2015, relying on the run to score wasn't that bad of an idea since we were handing the ball to Adrian Petersen who at the team was both the leading rusher in the league and a proven red zone threat. The fact that he is no longer on the team will probably also have an impact this issue. To what extent we do not know.

That last point is another reason why we should be careful to assume we understand patterns or tendencies with regards to the offense.
I guess I just don't see a need for caution in that regard. The patterns and tendencies are easily identifiable. We can see them. Nobody is saying they are immutable.
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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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Jim, the patterns in the past are obvious. However, if the players are different, especially a key cog like Adrian Petersen then a patter which involved him should be considered suspect if going forward he is not on the team.

Likewise, what we saw in 15 and 14 probably isn't that relevant any longer since Norv Turner was calling the plays vs. Pat Shurmer.

I get it, the Vikings did stuff a certain way in the past. I'm not arguing that. I'm asking what they are going to do in 2017. If the staff and roster are different at critical positions then it is logical to think the offense will not be the same.
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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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mansquatch wrote:Jim, the patterns in the past are obvious. However, if the players are different, especially a key cog like Adrian Petersen then a patter which involved him should be considered suspect if going forward he is not on the team.
Existing patterns are all we have to discuss. We can't draw conclusions from what has yet to occur. As I wrote above, I'm not suggesting the patterns and tendencies we've seen are immutable.
Likewise, what we saw in 15 and 14 probably isn't that relevant any longer since Norv Turner was calling the plays vs. Pat Shurmer.

I get it, the Vikings did stuff a certain way in the past. I'm not arguing that. I'm asking what they are going to do in 2017. If the staff and roster are different at critical positions then it is logical to think the offense will not be the same.
It's never exactly the same. It's been different in one capacity or another every year but what we've seen from the team philosophically under Zimmer is likely to inform what we'll see going forward. That doesn't mean there won't be differences and it's possible we could see dramatic differences but it's still worth considering what we've seen so far and what that might tell us about what lies ahead. We obviously don't know what they are going to do in 2017. I'm hoping they will be more aggressive about attacking the end zone and more effective at finishing drives with TDs.
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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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Guys this is an exercise in futility. The fundamental fact and limiting factor was that the team had NO O Line. No matter how great your RB, Coach, or QB might be, you will get nowhere without an OL. We cannot judge the Coaches from last year, not even the O Line Coach, until they have at least an average O Line.

Consider the opposite situation, ie a team with a great O Line and substandard RB.....they DO stand a chance of getting to the end zone.....we did not.
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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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chicagopurple wrote:Guys this is an exercise in futility. The fundamental fact and limiting factor was that the team had NO O Line. No matter how great your RB, Coach, or QB might be, you will get nowhere without an OL. We cannot judge the Coaches from last year, not even the O Line Coach, until they have at least an average O Line.

Consider the opposite situation, ie a team with a great O Line and substandard RB.....they DO stand a chance of getting to the end zone.....we did not.
As I've said several times already, it's not just a one year problem. It's not just an OL issue either.
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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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no, its not. But you cant really judge everything else until you have a servicable line.

I just got my list of game dates and its really hard to face shelling out 230-350$ per ticket for myself and my wife and 2 friends as I have done for years, after the horrible run of poor quality foot ball that management has put of the field for the last 2 yrs. When I take everyone up to MN for the weekend, its well over a grand for tickets, hotel rooms and meals. Up until the last few years I never hesitated because it was a momentous weekend and there was great optimism. Now I feel like I am just going through the motions and kinda wasting my money because the team is rather hopeless.....like Cleveland or Buffalo.....I am NOT excited and kinda feel like a chump buying my tickets.
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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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chicagopurple wrote:no, its not. But you cant really judge everything else until you have a servicable line.

I just got my list of game dates and its really hard to face shelling out 230-350$ per ticket for myself and my wife and 2 friends as I have done for years, after the horrible run of poor quality foot ball that management has put of the field for the last 2 yrs. When I take everyone up to MN for the weekend, its well over a grand for tickets, hotel rooms and meals. Up until the last few years I never hesitated because it was a momentous weekend and there was great optimism. Now I feel like I am just going through the motions and kinda wasting my money because the team is rather hopeless.....like Cleveland or Buffalo.....I am NOT excited and kinda feel like a chump buying my tickets.
I hear you. I'd be reluctant to spend big bucks on a trip to see the Vikes right now too. :(

It's weird to see just how divided we are as a fan base. Some fans are feeling very enthusiastic about the team right now and others seem to have "the blahs". We're obviously in the latter category at the moment, which is a drag. I haven't felt this way since the Childress era and I can't remember the last time I struggled so much to get interested in the draft...

That might seem off topic and to an extent, it is but I think it's also a consequence of watching years of offensive futility. I enjoy watching good defense but it would be nice to see a complete team for once.
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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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chicagopurple wrote:no, its not. But you cant really judge everything else until you have a servicable line.

I just got my list of game dates and its really hard to face shelling out 230-350$ per ticket for myself and my wife and 2 friends as I have done for years, after the horrible run of poor quality foot ball that management has put of the field for the last 2 yrs. When I take everyone up to MN for the weekend, its well over a grand for tickets, hotel rooms and meals. Up until the last few years I never hesitated because it was a momentous weekend and there was great optimism. Now I feel like I am just going through the motions and kinda wasting my money because the team is rather hopeless.....like Cleveland or Buffalo.....I am NOT excited and kinda feel like a chump buying my tickets.
For me it's been the exact opposite, I was much more pessimistic before going to the games. Granted I've been lucky as of late, I was there to watch them blow out the Chargers and then beat the Packers the following year in the new stadium opener, so that helps. It's awesome to see a sea of fans in purple, the stadium, the skol chant, some old school guy blowing the horn (was Bud Grant last year).

The atmosphere is great but if you aren't into it, doesn't seem to make sense paying money if you feel like you're just going through the motions. All I can say is the Falcons started 2015 at 5-0 then ended up 8-8 for the year. Look where they were in 2016. And I feel they did it with much less adversity than the Vikings had to face.
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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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S197 wrote: For me it's been the exact opposite, I was much more pessimistic before going to the games. Granted I've been lucky as of late, I was there to watch them blow out the Chargers and then beat the Packers the following year in the new stadium opener, so that helps. It's awesome to see a sea of fans in purple, the stadium, the skol chant, some old school guy blowing the horn (was Bud Grant last year).

The atmosphere is great but if you aren't into it, doesn't seem to make sense paying money if you feel like you're just going through the motions. All I can say is the Falcons started 2015 at 5-0 then ended up 8-8 for the year. Look where they were in 2016. And I feel they did it with much less adversity than the Vikings had to face.

Agree. I can't see how being a Vikings fan now, could be worse than how it was during the Frazier and Childress era. 3-13, QB carousel on a weekly basis. Enter 2017. Bradford is one of the best QBs the Vikings have had in 13 years (maybe more). They have a top 5 defense. They can afford to sit Clemmings. They seem to be moving away from a run first philosophy. The GM and HC seem to be on the same page. They finally have a place to call home. Plus, this year seems to be a deep draft and the Vikings have a lot of mid round picks which they should be able to fill the major holes.

Losing interest. Losing patience. Not much anyone can do to help you with that. But I don't think you can say it's because the product on the field is worse than before.

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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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808vikingsfan wrote:Agree. I can't see how being a Vikings fan now, could be worse than how it was during the Frazier and Childress era. 3-13, QB carousel on a weekly basis. Enter 2017. Bradford is one of the best QBs the Vikings have had in 13 years (maybe more). They have a top 5 defense. They can afford to sit Clemmings. They seem to be moving away from a run first philosophy. The GM and HC seem to be on the same page. They finally have a place to call home. Plus, this year seems to be a deep draft and the Vikings have a lot of mid round picks which they should be able to fill the major holes.

Losing interest. Losing patience. Not much anyone can do to help you with that. But I don't think you can say it's because the product on the field is worse than before.
It feels stagnant. Sure, there are changes every year but the mediocrity remains.

This dissatisfaction isn't without a foundation. Do people here realize we're actually in the least successful extended stretch of seasons in Vikings history (in terms of actually reaching the postseason)? They've been to the playoffs 5 times in the past 16 years and they've won just one playoff game in that period.
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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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Mothman wrote:
This dissatisfaction isn't without a foundation. Do people here realize we're actually in the least successful extended stretch of seasons in Vikings history (in terms of actually reaching the postseason)? They've been to the playoffs 5 times in the past 16 years and they've won just one playoff game in that period.

I think that's what 808 was getting at. Its been grim. The Ownership group - McCombs - Childress - Frazier...Zimmer is a dramatically new direction. They played the cover 2 (mostly not very well) for the better part of 20 years, and have taken a new direction. After some of what transpired last year, I'm less hopeful, but it certainly doesn't feel stale to me. Its starting to feel impatient and desperate though. I hope they prove me wrong this year and keep laying a foundation instead of mortgaging to save their jobs.
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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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fiestavike wrote:I think that's what 808 was getting at. Its been grim. The Ownership group - McCombs - Childress - Frazier...Zimmer is a dramatically new direction. They played the cover 2 (mostly not very well) for the better part of 20 years, and have taken a new direction. After some of what transpired last year, I'm less hopeful, but it certainly doesn't feel stale to me. Its starting to feel impatient and desperate though. I hope they prove me wrong this year and keep laying a foundation instead of mortgaging to save their jobs.
I don't think switching defensive schemes constitutes a dramatically new direction for the team. I see Zimmer's Vikings teams as an extension of the same direction with a new defensive scheme. We might say the team is in the Childress era, Zimmer era, etc. but what the Vikes are really in is the Wilf/Spielman era. We've seen continuity of similar issues across 3 different coaching staffs now and the extension of that same extended unsuccessful stretch I mentioned above.

They've already stopped laying the foundation
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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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Mothman wrote:They've already stopped laying the foundation
That's what I'm afraid of.
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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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fiestavike wrote: That's what I'm afraid of.

LOL! You responded to that fast! I took that line out, thinking it might be stated too definitively, but you responded to it before I could delete it so what the heck, i've put it back in.

I'll just qualify it by saying I fear what you fear: that they've already stopped. We've seen that show before and It speaks to what I was writing about above: we're in the Spielman/Wilf era. The characteristics that have defined the team for over a decade now flow down from the top.
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Re: Red Zone Scoring and Play Calling

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Mothman wrote:
LOL! You responded to that fast! I took that line out, thinking it might be stated too definitively, but you responded to it before I could delete it so what the heck, i've put it back in.

I'll just qualify it by saying I fear what you fear: that they've already stopped. We've seen that show before and It speaks to what I was writing about above: we're in the Spielman/Wilf era. The characteristics that have defined the team for over a decade now flow down from the top.
I recognize the correlation, but I'm not certain about the causation yet.

I hope to see the Wilfs exercise the kind of patience that we've seen in Pittsburg over the years. If they are applying pressure to 'win now', this team is probably 1-2 years out from full rebuilding mode. If they mortgaged the future in order to not have to open the stadium with a backup QB, that doesn't reassure me about the Wilfs. If Spielman invested in Bradford as a solid longterm solution, I feel a little better about it, despite my lukewarm opinion of Bradford as an NFL QB.

I didn't like Childress from the get go, and I think it was the right move to fire him, but I liked that they seemed to show some interest in continuity by retaining Frazier. It wasn't the right move, but it was a good instinct in my opinion. The problem was they had a wrong vision in the first place, and it never seemed to be a vision shared by the full organization.

Do they have the right vision this time around with Zimmer? I don't know, but I like transitioning to an aggressive defense in todays NFL. The key is to get the whole organization on the same page going forward. That means you don't try to run the cover 2 and fail to invest in LBers capable of playing it at a high level. You don't try to run Turner's offense and neglect the OT position. And now, you can't try to run Shurmurs system and not get him offensive weapons that can create mismatches. You can't run Zimmer's defense and fail to have a true, effective 3 technique, and a safety who can allow more versatility. I'm reassured by the OTs they targetted in FA that they are at least looking for personnel to match their system, and not bringing in guys like Wagner to run the system we just left behind. I have a similar take on letting Peterson walk. On the other hand, Its a slight mystery to me that they let Patterson walk as we institute an offense which could make better use of his talents, but I have heard from a couple sources that he is such a goofball that maybe it was more of a cultural/personality issue than a scheme fit issue.

I haven't drawn a conclussion on the Wilfs yet, except that they are 100 percent an improvement over the ownership group and Red McCombs.

*edit: From where they were when Zimmer and Turner came in, this team had what I thought was a great vision but a VERY long way to go in order to get the pieces to complete that vision. I wish they'd been able to show the patience to put all those pieces together and complete what would have been a perennial contender, but c'est la vie.

Shurmur's system is clearly a short cut to try to attain production instead of excellence, and I'm not excited about it, but if they commit to the defensive vision, perhaps the pairing can be effective enough to still become contenders.
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