Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

mansquatch wrote:This went off the rails in a hurry...

Here is my take on the roster:

Offense:
RB: At the moment feels decent, perhaps even competitive. We have two players who can play all three down in Murray and McKinnon.

QB: The backup situation is ugly, but I'm inclined to give them a pass since they are barely 7 months removed from the Teddy injury. The fact we have Bradford at all is probably a hat tip to Spielman.

WR: Diggs, Thielen, and Wright are a legitimate top 3 WR corps. We lack a true Alpha #1, but so do most teams. (The Patriots have no alpha WR and just won the SB against a team with the best WR in the NFL.) Past those three is the Treadwell question mark and some developmental guys. That isn't a bad situation IMO, however we currently lack a true red zone presence within this group. This is a natural fit for Treadwell, so again, can he make strides this offseason? If he can, it will mean very big things for our offense.

TE: Rudolph might be on the most important guys on the team given the lack of a redzone threat. Hopefully he can continue to improve. The new guy they singed (his name escapes me) should also help. I liked Ellison, but mostly he was a blocker, so let us hope that we do not miss that so much. (See next section...)

OL: Still the weakest group on the roster, but better than it was before free agency started. Still no definitive starter at RG. Backup situation at tackle is questionable (Sirles/Hill) to ugly (Clemmings.) Internal line has some positives lower on the depth chart at Kerin (SP?) and Easton. It is worth asking a question here though: How many teams can go 12 deep at OL like the Vikings had to in 2016 and be competitive? I'm going to venture a guess that the answer is ZERO. The place to rip Spielman is the solutions at starter (Kalil/Fusco/Loadholt/Harris/Smith/Sullivan) that lead to the debacle. Worth noting that every single member of that laundry list is off the roster. 6 OL in one offseason! This group still scares me. I think they'll be better than what we saw in 2016, but if injuries hit at tackle again we could be in trouble. It's not a one season fix. Hopefully they are able to add some reasonable depth here in the draft.

Defense:
CB: Probably the deepest group on the team. Losing Munnerlyn will sting some, but Rhodes/Newman/Waynes/Alexander is a solid group and likey as good at this position as any roster in the NFL.

S: Smith is a top 3 safety and probably competes for #1 depening on the role he is playing with the guys in Seasttle. Sandejo has become a solid role player. Some young talent beneath that is still inconsistent. Still I'd rate this group as very strong in the NFL. Finding good safeties at the NFL level is very hard. We are fortunate to have what we have here.

LB: Kendricks/Barr are as good in Nickel as anyone in the NFL IMO. The 3rd guy in the 4-3 is a bit of question with the retirement of Greenway. Not sure about the other guys. Might be a candidate for some depth?

DT: Joseph is fantastic. Tom Johnson isn't bad either. Floyd is an injury concern. They've added Datone Jones. I'd say we've got decent depth here.

DE: Robison/Griffen/Hunter are great. Behind them the talent isn't as strong, but still we've get the solid DE. Depth isn't terrible here.


For me the issue is mostly the same as last year. Can the OL put together a complete season and not completely hamper the team due to injuries? I want to think that having both tackles on IR is abnormal, but we've had so much injury trouble with this position group that it is hard to imagine in not being the case. Then again, three of the major injury bug culprits the last three years were Loadholt, Kalil, and Fusco, all of whom are no longer on the team. In addition we've seen AP not play 2 out of the past three seasons. Hopefully having consistency at RB will also help the offense.

I'm excited for what Bradford can bring to the table with his accuracy and deep ball if we can provide him with some protection. We do not have a dominant WR, but the guys we do have a sneaky and productive. A major question will be if they can get over the hump in the Red Zone and start being productive. If that happens, this team will be a contender given the quality of the defense.
Good post. I agree as well with a lot of this. I do however think we need an athletic pass catching TE behind Rudy. If Rudy ever went down, we are extremely limited there. I wouldnt be surprised if we drafted one later. Wish we still had Pruitt even though he was a "Norv guy"
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by PurpleMustReign »

Whatever happened to possibly trading for Kendrick's brother?

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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

PurpleMustReign wrote:Whatever happened to possibly trading for Kendrick's brother?

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I think the possibility is still out there. Although I think he has a somewhat large cap hit. I could be wrong though
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by CbusVikesFan »

PHP,
just razzing you a bit. Don't take everything so seriously. I keep saying he was a disappointment. I thought I would give you some crap about it all. :D 8)
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by CbusVikesFan »

mansquatch wrote:This went off the rails in a hurry...

Here is my take on the roster:

Offense:
RB: At the moment feels decent, perhaps even competitive. We have two players who can play all three down in Murray and McKinnon.

QB: The backup situation is ugly, but I'm inclined to give them a pass since they are barely 7 months removed from the Teddy injury. The fact we have Bradford at all is probably a hat tip to Spielman.

WR: Diggs, Thielen, and Wright are a legitimate top 3 WR corps. We lack a true Alpha #1, but so do most teams. (The Patriots have no alpha WR and just won the SB against a team with the best WR in the NFL.) Past those three is the Treadwell question mark and some developmental guys. That isn't a bad situation IMO, however we currently lack a true red zone presence within this group. This is a natural fit for Treadwell, so again, can he make strides this offseason? If he can, it will mean very big things for our offense.

TE: Rudolph might be on the most important guys on the team given the lack of a redzone threat. Hopefully he can continue to improve. The new guy they singed (his name escapes me) should also help. I liked Ellison, but mostly he was a blocker, so let us hope that we do not miss that so much. (See next section...)

OL: Still the weakest group on the roster, but better than it was before free agency started. Still no definitive starter at RG. Backup situation at tackle is questionable (Sirles/Hill) to ugly (Clemmings.) Internal line has some positives lower on the depth chart at Kerin (SP?) and Easton. It is worth asking a question here though: How many teams can go 12 deep at OL like the Vikings had to in 2016 and be competitive? I'm going to venture a guess that the answer is ZERO. The place to rip Spielman is the solutions at starter (Kalil/Fusco/Loadholt/Harris/Smith/Sullivan) that lead to the debacle. Worth noting that every single member of that laundry list is off the roster. 6 OL in one offseason! This group still scares me. I think they'll be better than what we saw in 2016, but if injuries hit at tackle again we could be in trouble. It's not a one season fix. Hopefully they are able to add some reasonable depth here in the draft.

Defense:
CB: Probably the deepest group on the team. Losing Munnerlyn will sting some, but Rhodes/Newman/Waynes/Alexander is a solid group and likey as good at this position as any roster in the NFL.

S: Smith is a top 3 safety and probably competes for #1 depening on the role he is playing with the guys in Seasttle. Sandejo has become a solid role player. Some young talent beneath that is still inconsistent. Still I'd rate this group as very strong in the NFL. Finding good safeties at the NFL level is very hard. We are fortunate to have what we have here.

LB: Kendricks/Barr are as good in Nickel as anyone in the NFL IMO. The 3rd guy in the 4-3 is a bit of question with the retirement of Greenway. Not sure about the other guys. Might be a candidate for some depth?

DT: Joseph is fantastic. Tom Johnson isn't bad either. Floyd is an injury concern. They've added Datone Jones. I'd say we've got decent depth here.

DE: Robison/Griffen/Hunter are great. Behind them the talent isn't as strong, but still we've get the solid DE. Depth isn't terrible here.


For me the issue is mostly the same as last year. Can the OL put together a complete season and not completely hamper the team due to injuries? I want to think that having both tackles on IR is abnormal, but we've had so much injury trouble with this position group that it is hard to imagine in not being the case. Then again, three of the major injury bug culprits the last three years were Loadholt, Kalil, and Fusco, all of whom are no longer on the team. In addition we've seen AP not play 2 out of the past three seasons. Hopefully having consistency at RB will also help the offense.

I'm excited for what Bradford can bring to the table with his accuracy and deep ball if we can provide him with some protection. We do not have a dominant WR, but the guys we do have a sneaky and productive. A major question will be if they can get over the hump in the Red Zone and start being productive. If that happens, this team will be a contender given the quality of the defense.
I think the Patriots signed Brandon Cooks recently. They also had Moss. But I know what your saying, perennially they have not had a true #1. This is one reason why I was disappointed in the Treadwell pick.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by S197 »

Nice post mansquatch. I would add Sharmar Stephen has played well in relief of Floyd. I also agree with PHP that they need to look for another pass catching TE.

I think interior line is going to need to be a priority. Berger played okay last year but he's nearing the end of his career. I think they also need a CP replacement. Someone who can return kicks and get YAC on screens and misdirections. I think their first 5 picks should be some order of C/G, RB, QB, T, TE. Perhaps subbing in a WR, DT or OLB depending on how the board shakes out.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by mansquatch »

I think they need to do BPA in the 2nd round to ensure adding playmaking potential. But I agree on going for depth where it is needed most.

OL was never going to be a single season fix, not when you jettison 2 guys who have started at Guard in the past two seasons and three guys who've been you're starter at tackle (4 if you count Jake Long) over the same time period. I agree on needing more inside (and outside) depth, I'm just dubious that anyone they draft will contribute in 2017. (in terms of OL)

This is speculation on my part, but I think part of why we saw them jettison Fusco/Harris so early was Tony Sparano. He probably concluded they were dead weight and that it was time to move on. I dobut anyone here found that move controversial. The tackles were a no brainer. One can argue on the guys they signed, but I think they signed guys that should they pan out will give the Vikings some longevity upon which to build (I still can't believe Carolina gave Kalil 5 years at $55M...) despite not being glamorous signings. I'm sure this will get me flamed, but I think how they approached those contracts shows positive things for Spielman vs. negative. As I've said before, the criticism is more that he had to sign 2 tackles in the first place, not who he signed. (and didn't overpay for relative to the market.)

I think the offense is going to surprise people this year, I feel like a lot of people are actually undervaluing just how much impact the OL play in 2016 had on our performance. This isn't to say I think they can just plug a couple of average players in there (which is basically what they did) and be world beaters. Not at all. Just that they were REALLY AWFUL in 2016, so even crawling to average is a significant improvement. Our Defense was good enough to win us 8 games last year despite that awful offense. How many games does it win with an average offense? Hopefully they'll do a better job this year and we'll get to find out.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by HardcoreVikesFan »

Maybe it is time to take a hard look at your system Rick.

8-8 wasn't solely an anomaly - it was in large part due to YOUR FAILURE as a GM to adequately find both effective starting offensive linemen and quality depth along the long.

The QB position largely has been a mess in your ten years here. No one could have predicted what would happen to Teddy. Nevertheless, we are out a first round pick in 2017 and a fourth round pick in 2018 because YOU FAILED to adequately address the back-up QB position.

We have not been able to have continued success drafting outside of round one. I'll applaud your finds of Everson Griffen, Danielle Hunter, Stefon Diggs, and even Blair Walsh.

However, I cannot overlook the following picks while you have been the main decision maker: Christian Ballard, Josh Robinson, Jeff Locke, Scott Crichton, David Yankey, T.J. Clemmings, Mycole Pruitt, Willie Beavers, your premature commitment to Brandon Fusco, and your continued commitment to Christian Ponder.

It is frustrating as a fan to have witnessed ONE playoff win in the last ten years. How much longer are you going to make us fans support mediocrity?
Last edited by HardcoreVikesFan on Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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shhhhh! You will upset Percy.......
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by PurpleMustReign »

HardcoreVikesFan wrote:Maybe it is time to take a hard look at your system Rick.

8-8 wasn't solely an anomaly - it was in large part due to YOUR FAILURE as a GM to adequately find both effective starting offensive linemen and quality depth along the long.

The QB position has been largely been a mess in your ten years here. No one could have predicted what would happen to Teddy. Nevertheless, we are out a first round pick in 2017 and a fourth round pick in 2018 because YOU FAILED to adequately address the back-up QB position.

We have not been able to have continued success drafting outside of round one. I'll applaud your finds of Everson Griffen, Danielle Hunter, Stefon Diggs, and even Blair Walsh.

However, I cannot overlook the following picks while you have been the main decision maker: Christian Ballard, Josh Robinson, Jeff Locke, Scott Crichton, David Yankey, T.J. Clemmings, Mycole Pruitt, Willie Beavers, your premature commitment to Brandon Fusco, and your continued commitment to Christian Ponder.

It is frustrating as a fan to have witnessed ONE playoff win in the last ten years. How much longer are you going to make us fans to support mediocrity?
Skol!

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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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PurpleMustReign wrote: Skol!

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+1
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by PurpleKoolaid »

HardcoreVikesFan wrote:Maybe it is time to take a hard look at your system Rick.

8-8 wasn't solely an anomaly - it was in large part due to YOUR FAILURE as a GM to adequately find both effective starting offensive linemen and quality depth along the long.

The QB position has been largely been a mess in your ten years here. No one could have predicted what would happen to Teddy. Nevertheless, we are out a first round pick in 2017 and a fourth round pick in 2018 because YOU FAILED to adequately address the back-up QB position.

We have not been able to have continued success drafting outside of round one. I'll applaud your finds of Everson Griffen, Danielle Hunter, Stefon Diggs, and even Blair Walsh.

However, I cannot overlook the following picks while you have been the main decision maker: Christian Ballard, Josh Robinson, Jeff Locke, Scott Crichton, David Yankey, T.J. Clemmings, Mycole Pruitt, Willie Beavers, your premature commitment to Brandon Fusco, and your continued commitment to Christian Ponder.

It is frustrating as a fan to have witnessed ONE playoff win in the last ten years. How much longer are you going to make us fans to support mediocrity?
Finally, a post that makes sense. Going from mediocre, to ok, to bad, then back to mediocre, has become tiresome. Along with no solutions to problems we have had for years, just cheap band-aids.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

CbusVikesFan wrote:PHP,
just razzing you a bit. Don't take everything so seriously. I keep saying he was a disappointment. I thought I would give you some crap about it all. :D 8)
My bad :D It's always hard to tell if someone is being serious or not on here.
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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

Post by mansquatch »

The vast difference between my posts and the previous two or three really blows my mind.

If I were to boil my view down to it's essence it would be this:

If you get 2016 level of Defensive performace (or better), + Sam Bradford as good or better than last year + Average OL play = Playoff contender. Over simplified for sure, but is basically where I'm at.

I'm fine if people want to debate that, it is just my opinion. (Jim and I have gone back and fourth on it for the entire offeseason.) I'm just curious why people think that if the OL improves to average we are still a complete disaster? That logic completely escapes me. We went 8-8 last year with probably the worst NFL OL I've seen in 20 years as a serious fan. if that doesn't speak to the quality of the rest of the roster I'm really not sure what does? I do not understand the thought process that leads to a conclusion of "we are headed to a losing season" if that same OL gets better. Sometime I wonder if some of the posters on here turn off the game when the defense is on the field?

It also feels like a lot posters have a serious axe to grind with Spielman and they do not care about what they are seeing on Sundays. As I've said here and other times the GM issue comes up: As compared to what? How do you rate him? It is easy to say he hasn't hit on all his draft picks. OK great. What is the average hit rate in the NFL? What is really good? I've asked those questions literally dozens of times on here and I never get a clear answer. I've come to view the attitude as this:

Pissed off, don't know why.

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Re: Rick Spielman hasn't lost faith in himself or his system

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Pondering Her Percy wrote: My bad :D It's always hard to tell if someone is being serious or not on here.
No, I should have added a couple of smiley faces with it. My bad. I admire your acumen and passion for the Vikings and football in general. Woot!
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