Toxic Leadership

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MountainGirl
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by MountainGirl »

fiestavike wrote: Norv Turner has a long history in this league and he doesn't have a reputation as a flake. He didn't just quit because things weren't going the way he wanted.
That's what he said. He didn't like the direction they decided to go with the offense, so he quit. Not professional and not good for the team. Any losses after that are his fault IMO. But let's see how things go without him and without any distractions this year.
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chicagopurple
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by chicagopurple »

Its not just Norv, its an organization that would put together a head coach and a VERY veteran OC who dont see eye to eye. An organization that would let the OC put his baby boy in charge of a developing QB. AN organization that lets its OL decay while paying a premium for an aging RB and young QB...to both of their detriment......all of this is on Spielman.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

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MountainGirl wrote:That's what he said. He didn't like the direction they decided to go with the offense, so he quit.
That's not what he said. He said:

"It's something people may not understand. It's not me against somebody else. The situation was such ... I don't think I could get done the things we needed to get done. It wasn't something you just wake up and decide. It's been building. It wasn't going to work with me. So let me get out of the way and let them have a chance to make it work."

I think it's important to acknowledge his obvious effort to be diplomatic and to understand that leaving midseason was surprisingly out of character for Turner. He made a point of saying it was a "building" situation. I think the key to understanding what happened probably lies in that comment and in his remark that "I don't think I could get done the things we needed to get done". Why? That comment sure makes it sound like an untenable situation was allowed to develop within the organization and led to Turner stepping aside.

From the same article linked to above:
Turner mentioned several times "where we are as a team" as a reason for why he stepped away.
That sure looks to me like a diplomatic way to say things were messed up within the organization.
Not professional and not good for the team. Any losses after that are his fault IMO.


That's letting the people actually involved in those losses off the hook pretty easily. The players and coaches involved in the last 9 games had something to do with the outcomes.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by MountainGirl »

Mothman wrote: That's not what he said. He said:

"It's something people may not understand. It's not me against somebody else. The situation was such ... I don't think I could get done the things we needed to get done. It wasn't something you just wake up and decide. It's been building. It wasn't going to work with me. So let me get out of the way and let them have a chance to make it work."

I think it's important to acknowledge his obvious effort to be diplomatic and to understand that leaving midseason was surprisingly out of character for Turner. He made a point of saying it was a "building" situation. I think the key to understanding what happened probably lies in that comment and in his remark that "I don't think I could get done the things we needed to get done". Why? That comment sure makes it sound like an untenable situation was allowed to develop within the organization and led to Turner stepping aside.

From the same article linked to above:

That sure looks to me like a diplomatic way to say things were messed up within the organization.


That's letting the people actually involved in those losses off the hook pretty easily. The players and coaches involved in the last 9 games had something to do with the outcomes.
Here's the quote I read: “Mike and I just had different ideas about what we needed to do and how we needed to do it,” said Turner, 64, reached at his home in Del Mar. “It wasn’t going to work, so I removed myself from it.” So basically he didn't like the direction they were going in, so he quit on the team in the middle of the season. That's weak in my opinion. I got this from the LA Times. Here's the link. http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp ... story.html
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by mansquatch »

Trying to get into the weeds on this particular issue is a useless endeavor. We do not know the full story. The whole point of my previous post could be summed up with the old cliche "where there is smoke there is fire."

I do not and cannot know exactly what is wrong or why. I'm just pointing out that the things we saw happen last year are extremely likely to have roots in managerial issues.

It could be any number of things: Maybe the guys they drafted do not "gel" with the leadership style of Zimmer and Crew. Maybe the same is true of Norv vs. Zimm? Maybe Norv got tired of things or was in fact stubborn about his system. It could be ANYTHING, we simply do not know enough of the why or how to make any meaningful conjecture beyond the simple fact that SOMETHING went terribly wrong.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by mansquatch »

MountainGirl wrote: Here's the quote I read: “Mike and I just had different ideas about what we needed to do and how we needed to do it,” said Turner, 64, reached at his home in Del Mar. “It wasn’t going to work, so I removed myself from it.” So basically he didn't like the direction they were going in, so he quit on the team in the middle of the season. That's weak in my opinion. I got this from the LA Times. Here's the link. http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp ... story.html
Not to be rude, but this statement is open to interpretation. We do not how much Norv was willing to take to conclude if he or Zimmer were the individual being unreasonable. We know they reached an impasse. We do not know if it was mutual or one sided, only that it happened.

My point is that if things were healthy they never would have gotten to the point of a mid-season resignation. As who is the problem, we have no idea. IMO everyone is likely to be at least somewhat to blame.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by Alaskan »

MountainGirl wrote:I mostly lurk on here, but I'm a Zimmer fan and I wanted to say something. I think Norv Turner had a lot to do with the problems last year. Things weren't going the way he wanted so he quit, and I believe he caused a lot of division and strife in doing so. It's weak to quit in the middle of the season when you don't get your own way, and that's what he did. I think he fed into a lot of hard feelings and worked against Zimmer in that way. It's not surprising that they lost when he not only left them in the middle of the season, but, in my opinion, caused morale to drop. I think he intentionally wrecked morale on his way out. This is probably not a popular opinion but now that they've moved on from him, his son, and players/staff who were part of the problem, I think the winning starts again.
I agree with your take for the most part. I am not sure he intentionally wrecked moral on his way out.....but it was no question a by-product of him leaving IMO. Him quitting midseason was a weak move from a leader, that is something that cannot be argued with.....Its a fact.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

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MountainGirl wrote:Here's the quote I read: “Mike and I just had different ideas about what we needed to do and how we needed to do it,” said Turner, 64, reached at his home in Del Mar. “It wasn’t going to work, so I removed myself from it.” So basically he didn't like the direction they were going in, so he quit on the team in the middle of the season. That's weak in my opinion. I got this from the LA Times. Here's the link. http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp ... story.html

Thanks for the link. Again, I think we have to consider Turner's well-established character, the larger context of his comments and his obvious efforts at diplomacy. In that context, it seems more likely to me that Turner was undermined or otherwise found himself in a situation in which he felt it was better to relieve simmering tensions that were going to be detrimental to the team by leaving rather than remain and let that situation continue to build.

If it's "weak" for a coordinator to resign mid-season, I think it's even weaker to bring in his replacement and undermine what he's trying to do, which appears to be at least part of what happened. Personally, I also suspect his comment about not being able to do the things they needed to get done may have been, in part, a jab at Rick Spielman for failing to provide Turner with the kind of personnel his system clearly needs to be successful. That's speculation though.

Regardless of how we want to perceive Turner's decision to leave, it serves as a string indication that things weren't running smoothly behind the scenes.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by Alaskan »

fiestavike wrote: Norv Turner has a long history in this league and he doesn't have a reputation as a flake. He didn't just quit because things weren't going the way he wanted.
I don't feel she is calling him a flake. I see her point completely. His decision to leave the way he did had a negative effect on the team and attributed to the downward spiral. No question. It was a extremely weak move by a leader. That does not define excellence. Norv has been in this league for a long time and has been all over the place, with the only real success coming in Dallas, 25 years ago with HOF talent all over the offense that he oversaw. Since then he has been your average coach, not the definition of excellence.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by fiestavike »

Alaskan wrote: I don't feel she is calling him a flake. I see her point completely. His decision to leave the way he did had a negative effect on the team and attributed to the downward spiral. No question. It was a extremely weak move by a leader. That does not define excellence. Norv has been in this league for a long time and has been all over the place, with the only real success coming in Dallas, 25 years ago with HOF talent all over the offense that he oversaw. Since then he has been your average coach, not the definition of excellence.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by MountainGirl »

mansquatch wrote: Not to be rude, but this statement is open to interpretation. We do not how much Norv was willing to take to conclude if he or Zimmer were the individual being unreasonable. We know they reached an impasse. We do not know if it was mutual or one sided, only that it happened.

My point is that if things were healthy they never would have gotten to the point of a mid-season resignation. As who is the problem, we have no idea. IMO everyone is likely to be at least somewhat to blame.
Fair enough. My interpretation came from the words in that article combined with the fact that he quit on his team mid season, which is inexcusable IMO. Definitely up to individual interpretation though.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by Mothman »

Alaskan wrote:I don't feel she is calling him a flake. I see her point completely. His decision to leave the way he did had a negative effect on the team and attributed to the downward spiral. No question. It was a extremely weak move by a leader. That does not define excellence.


But the question at hand is what conditions led to his departure, not just the impact his departure had on the season. He didn't leave for no reason so what is it about the team's culture and what was happening behind the scenes, within the management structure, that precipitated Turner's departure? A situation that results in the OC resigning midseason doesn't strike me as "defining excellence" either.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by Mothman »

mansquatch wrote:Trying to get into the weeds on this particular issue is a useless endeavor. We do not know the full story. The whole point of my previous post could be summed up with the old cliche "where there is smoke there is fire."

I do not and cannot know exactly what is wrong or why. I'm just pointing out that the things we saw happen last year are extremely likely to have roots in managerial issues.

It could be any number of things: Maybe the guys they drafted do not "gel" with the leadership style of Zimmer and Crew. Maybe the same is true of Norv vs. Zimm? Maybe Norv got tired of things or was in fact stubborn about his system. It could be ANYTHING, we simply do not know enough of the why or how to make any meaningful conjecture beyond the simple fact that SOMETHING went terribly wrong.
Well said.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by autobon7 »

I have never been a fan of Turner but it was obvious that something was going on behind closed doors. Then when he vacates the job when we were the last undefeated team left........He told the Minneapolis Start Tribune...."it got to the point where I didn't think it was going to work with me. So I removed myself". Great leader.....I think not.
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Re: Toxic Leadership

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Alaskan wrote: I agree with your take for the most part. I am not sure he intentionally wrecked moral on his way out.....but it was no question a by-product of him leaving IMO. Him quitting midseason was a weak move from a leader, that is something that cannot be argued with.....Its a fact.
I agree as well. I've mentioned before that he knew the OL was struggling and was still burying Bradford under center going into 7 step drops. Notice how there was a drastic change in the passing game when he left? I honestly think he was being stubborn. He wanted to run the offense the way he always has and didnt want to change it. I could see Zim going to him asking to shorten up our drops and get the ball out quicker and that just wasn't his style.
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