O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
chicagopurple
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1498
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:45 am
x 88

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by chicagopurple »

any team that has a plan that relies on Kalil is doomed. He will suck while in there, he will commit critical fouls, and then by game 5 will be injured, sitting on the bench and counting his paychecks......

If it IS the Vikes big plan to keep Kalil and Berger as our most experienced stable starters on OL, we are certain to fail again......you all know the definition of insanity, right? Doing the same thinf over and over even though it doesnt work?? That is our fine leaderships mindframe if they dont revamp especially with Kalil.
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

chicagopurple wrote:any team that has a plan that relies on Kalil is doomed. He will suck while in there, he will commit critical fouls, and then by game 5 will be injured, sitting on the bench and counting his paychecks......
This is pure speculation and pretty much an overreaction as well. You really just won't look at the big picture huh? Instead you just repeat how much you hate Kalil and how certain you are that this will happen. If you've paid any attention to what I've written regarding Kalil I've said multiple times that we should resign him to a 1-2 year deal AND draft a LT. So does that, in any sense mean we are "relying on Matt Kalil". No. It provides us with insurance and depth. For some reason you keep looking past that. As for an injury, let me put this into perspective for you since it's about the 3rd time I've repeated myself regarding this.

His game log currently reads:

2012: 16 games, 16 started
2013: 16 games, 16 started
2014: 16 games, 16 started
2015: 16 games, 16 started
2016: 2 games, 2 started.

This year was the first year the guy EVER missed a game in the NFL. But you're so sure he will be injured by week 5? Saying something like that has zero backing behind it.

If it IS the Vikes big plan to keep Kalil and Berger as our most experienced stable starters on OL, we are certain to fail again......you all know the definition of insanity, right? Doing the same thinf over and over even though it doesnt work?? That is our fine leaderships mindframe if they dont revamp especially with Kalil.
:confused: This is quite tiring. But AGAIN, have I not said that Joe Berger has been a top 8 center 2 years in a row now according to PFF. Yet you continue to throw digs at him basically saying we're doomed if he starts. So I'll leave this one in your hands. Please, please tell me why Joe Berger will cause the Vikings to be doomed. You've explained yourself with Kalil and it was simply pure speculation and quite frankly an overreaction that strayed away from my reasoning behind keeping him. So I would like to hear your take regarding Berger. And yes I'm aware of his age and no it hasn't effected his play. Please tell me why Joe Berger dooms the Vikings....... :popcorn:
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
User avatar
chicagopurple
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1498
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:45 am
x 88

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by chicagopurple »

Kalil's poor performances have frequently been attributed to "playing injured" (what nfl line ISNT injured and playing?). I dont buy it. He just isnt a good player. Last year it went beyond using injury as an excuse, he just sat out. It was probably better that he did so.

Berger just isnt a starter quality guy. He would be a back up guy on any contender. He is a utility guy, and valuable in that role.

If these 2 are considered the bedrock veteran starters for 2017, it will not work.
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

chicagopurple wrote:Kalil's poor performances have frequently been attributed to "playing injured" (what nfl line ISNT injured and playing?). I dont buy it. He just isnt a good player. Last year it went beyond using injury as an excuse, he just sat out. It was probably better that he did so.

Berger just isnt a starter quality guy. He would be a back up guy on any contender. He is a utility guy, and valuable in that role.

If these 2 are considered the bedrock veteran starters for 2017, it will not work.
Where are you getting this information regarding Kalil? First of all Matt Kalil just sat out? Dude he had a torn labrum in his hip and had surgery. That's not just "sitting out". He was actually seriously injured. So a good portion of the first paragraph is completely false. Has he been good? No. I would say he's average to below average. It's a stop gap dude. We aren't relying on him and only him if we draft a LT to compete with him which I've been saying this whole time.

As far as Berger, I'll also ask, where are you getting this information from? Last year he was the #3 pass blocking center and #7 run blocking center. In 2015 he allowed 1 sack all year.
The play of center Joe Berger saves this unit from being ranked among the very worst in the league, and while Alex Boone didn’t exactly justify his contract, he was solid in his first year with the team.
To say he wouldn't start for any contender....what are you even basing that off?? I can tell you right now he would start over Seattle's Justin Britt and New England's David Andrews because neither of them were very good this year. So there's a contender and Super Bowl champ for you so I won't bother going any further. Either way, I have zero clue what you're basing any of this off of. I've provided you stats and you've came back with "he just isn't starting quality" and "he wouldn't start for a contender". Both of those claims are beyond false. Give me some kind of reasoning behind this stuff because outside of that, it just looks like you're plucking this out of thin air.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
User avatar
chicagopurple
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1498
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:45 am
x 88

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by chicagopurple »

stats for Berger dont mean much compared to watching the actual games. No one on the team was respectable for blocking....Our RB never had any holes to run thru, our QB had to run 2 sec release plays all year because the line was an epic failure.....if you think your stats on Berger translate to real quality, every team in the league would be trying to recruit him away....that is NOT the case....no quality team would plug him in as a starter.

as far as Kalil, of course I know his injury and he HAD to sit out this year....my point was the previous years he continually had some injury that gave him some excuse (in the eyes of Spielman) for his chronic under performance....it was all just that, an excuse.

Bottom line, neither of these guys offer a real answer and the team needs to totally move on and build a real winner..not tread water with these guys.
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

chicagopurple wrote:stats for Berger dont mean much compared to watching the actual games. No one on the team was respectable for blocking....Our RB never had any holes to run thru, our QB had to run 2 sec release plays all year because the line was an epic failure.....if you think your stats on Berger translate to real quality, every team in the league would be trying to recruit him away....that is NOT the case....no quality team would plug him in as a starter.

as far as Kalil, of course I know his injury and he HAD to sit out this year....my point was the previous years he continually had some injury that gave him some excuse (in the eyes of Spielman) for his chronic under performance....it was all just that, an excuse.

Bottom line, neither of these guys offer a real answer and the team needs to totally move on and build a real winner..not tread water with these guys.
Lol my god dude. Alex Mack is a really good center. Does that mean "everyone tried to recruit him away" after a good first year in Atlanta?? No. So just because a team didn't try to trade for Joe Berger means he's not good? :roll: Last year when AP ran in between tackle and guard or outside of tackle, he averaged 2.6 YPC. When he ran on either side of Berger he averaged 4.6. But that means nothing right? The guy has given up like 3-4 sacks in two full seasons. That means nothing right? The Seattle Seahawks had a worse line than we did, they were considered contenders, they wouldn't start Joe Berger? False. David Andrews was the worst OL on New England this year, they wouldn't start Joe Berger? False.

I've watched every game this year. More than once because I bought game pass and I can tell you that Joe Berger is a good center. I would imagine anyone else on here would agree. Is it a position we have to consider soon? Yes because of his age but he is a rock solid center. Once again, I've provided everything possible when it comes to facts and statistics and you're picking stuff out of the clouds with no backing behind it. You have zero justification that Berger is not a "starting quality center" and you continue to show that with your fact-less posts. How about agree to disagree because I can tell I'm doing nothing but wasting my time and energy with you regarding this.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
808vikingsfan
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3927
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:45 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 151

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by 808vikingsfan »

VikingPaul73 wrote:I'm surprised about all of the talk about 8-8 in this thread and others; and that we were just a win or 2 from the playoffs meaning we were very very close to being a contender.

I see that point, but to me, there is a big difference between a season split of 4-4 / 4-4.....and a season split of 5-0 / 3-8.

the 2nd half of the season was absolutely brutal. and the defensive collapse in the last quarter of the season was even more disturbing.

Just my $0.02 :smilevike: :smilevike:
Wait. How is 5-0/3-8 a season split? Shouldn't it be 5-3/ 3-5?

IMO, the injuries caught up to this team. You need talent on the field to win. For the OL, you also need continuity. I think a lot of people are much more disappointed in this season because the Vikings started 5-0. When you look back on it, considering who they lost to injury, they had no business winning 5 in a row to start.

in my opinion, the last quarter of a season is much more indicative of the next year than the 1st quarter. And in this case, the Vikes were one of the worst teams in the NFL. Definitely bottom third, maybe worse.
IMO, it depends. Don't want to beat a dead horse but look at Altanta. They started 5-0 and ended 2015 at 2-6. Every season is a new season. Anything can happen. That's why we watch sports.

As far as being the worst in Q4, there were 22 teams that had the same or worse record than the Vikings.
Joined: Aug 2006
Deleted: Sept 12 2014
Reborn: Sept 17 2014
User avatar
VikingPaul73
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3371
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:07 pm
x 141

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by VikingPaul73 »

I said split, not 50-50 split :v):

Injuries definitely hurt on offense but their D was relatively healthy
User avatar
chicagopurple
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1498
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:45 am
x 88

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by chicagopurple »

the D paid a price for the pitiful offense...they were able to carry the load in the first half then started breaking down. I cant fault them too much. We do need to bone up the run defense, we gave up way too much on the ground especially as the year went on. Overall, the D is the least of our worries.
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

chicagopurple wrote:the D paid a price for the pitiful offense...they were able to carry the load in the first half then started breaking down. I cant fault them too much. We do need to bone up the run defense, we gave up way too much on the ground especially as the year went on. Overall, the D is the least of our worries.
This I will agree with you on
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
PurpleMustReign
Starting Wide Receiver
Posts: 19150
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:48 pm
Location: Crystal, MN
x 114
Contact:

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by PurpleMustReign »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: This I will agree with you on
I agree mostly... It was really disturbing to see teams like Detroit anf Indianapolis move the ball at will and convert so many 3rd downs.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
The Devil whispered in the Viking's ear, "There's a storm coming." The Viking replied, "I am the storm." ‪#‎SKOL2018
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

PurpleMustReign wrote: I agree mostly... It was really disturbing to see teams like Detroit anf Indianapolis move the ball at will and convert so many 3rd downs.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Indy was a weird game. The Detroit games just seems like a lot of dinking and dunking. They knew that if they Stafford held the ball too long they were in trouble. He was getting the ball out quick. Indy kind of reminded me of last year's regular season Seattle game. It seems like we're good for one of those type games a year. We either run with teams and win or lose by a little then there is one game we look worse than the Browns. Not sure what it is but it's starting to seem like a once a year thing. Hopefully we can start to stop that.

I think it was more the 2nd GB game and the Indy game where you really saw this defense start to wear down. As for Detroit I just thought they had really good game plans vs. us. I'm sure if you see this offense scoring more, you won't see that so much from the defense at the end of the season. You didnt see them fade in 2015. If anything they looked better at years end.
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38292
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 409

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by Mothman »

Pondering Her Percy wrote:Indy was a weird game. The Detroit games just seems like a lot of dinking and dunking. They knew that if they Stafford held the ball too long they were in trouble. He was getting the ball out quick. Indy kind of reminded me of last year's regular season Seattle game. It seems like we're good for one of those type games a year. We either run with teams and win or lose by a little then there is one game we look worse than the Browns. Not sure what it is but it's starting to seem like a once a year thing. Hopefully we can start to stop that
I wish it was just a "once a year" thing. It happens more than that. In the last 2 years, we've seen it happen again and again. It occurred @SF, home against GB and home against SEA in 2015. In 2016, they were blown out by Indy and @GB. They were dominated @CHI and @PHI too, even though late, "garbage time" TDs kept the final scores in those last 2 games a little closer than the others.

That's 7 games in 2 seasons in which the Vikes weren't really competitive. :(
Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9241
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 1117

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Mothman wrote: I wish it was just a "once a year" thing. It happens more than that. In the last 2 years, we've seen it happen again and again. It occurred @SF, home against GB and home against SEA in 2015. In 2016, they were blown out by Indy and @GB. They were dominated @CHI and @PHI too, even though late, "garbage time" TDs kept the final scores in those last 2 games a little closer than the others.

That's 7 games in 2 seasons in which the Vikes weren't really competitive. :(
Philly dominated our offense which isn't hard to do. I would say our defense held its own that game. It's just we couldn't stop turning the ball over. I'm talking about games where both O and D play bad. Philly wasn't one of those games
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri
User avatar
chicagopurple
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1498
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:45 am
x 88

Re: O-line changes have begun -- Vikes release Fusco, Harris

Post by chicagopurple »

dinking and dunking is the way to success today....The Pats, Seattle, even GB buy into the "death by a thousand papercuts" offense, and it works (well, not for us, naturally). I guess the big question is how do we do better at defending it, esp vs the run. One BIG step is to have a competent offense that can actually accomplish some ball control time and allow the D to rest and force the opponent to take more risks under pressure. Anyone able to look at how our D performed on Third downs this year? I feel like we gave up alot of 1st down plays on 3rd down, but I am no Stat Master.
Post Reply