Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a year

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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

IrishViking wrote:I am honestly a little surprise by the opposition to the idea.

You are telling me that if we miss the playoffs again in anything other than lets say a 10-6 bizarre season where it comes down to the wire, meaning we go 8-8 again, people would be happy going into a 5th season with a couch who has lead us to a single playoff game and lost at home?

I am not saying THIS offseason, I am saying if we have another 8-8 year or a 7-9, 6-10 year. We will be looking at 4 years and a single playoff game that we lost. I simply don't see how you could categorize Zimmers Tenure as successful at that point. :confused:

I only bring it up because we have a BIG hill to climb. I know we have the rose colored off season glasses on but we need at least 3 completely new Olinemen to play WELL next year to have a shot on top of our defense needing to play as well as it was playing initially in the year for the whole season. I hope Zimmer can do it but if I had to put money on whether or not our offense and oline will be significantly better and our defense will continue to play at a high level next year... I'd say no.
It's not like this defense is old. So why couldnt it continue to play at a high level?? By letting go AP, we have the cap to get 1-2 big FA OL plus drafting. Not sure why some think this cant happen. It can. It's all about making the right moves and drafting right. I have faith that Zim and Spielman have that handled.
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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by autobon7 »

I'm with PHP....if they play their cards right it is possible.
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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by S197 »

IrishViking wrote:I am honestly a little surprise by the opposition to the idea.

You are telling me that if we miss the playoffs again in anything other than lets say a 10-6 bizarre season where it comes down to the wire, meaning we go 8-8 again, people would be happy going into a 5th season with a couch who has lead us to a single playoff game and lost at home?

I am not saying THIS offseason, I am saying if we have another 8-8 year or a 7-9, 6-10 year. We will be looking at 4 years and a single playoff game that we lost. I simply don't see how you could categorize Zimmers Tenure as successful at that point. :confused:

I only bring it up because we have a BIG hill to climb. I know we have the rose colored off season glasses on but we need at least 3 completely new Olinemen to play WELL next year to have a shot on top of our defense needing to play as well as it was playing initially in the year for the whole season. I hope Zimmer can do it but if I had to put money on whether or not our offense and oline will be significantly better and our defense will continue to play at a high level next year... I'd say no.
For me it depends on the circumstances. A healthy Vikings team should have a winning season but there are extraordinary circumstances where I would allow some leeway. I don't count a blow out loss and Walsh shanking a FG as equal, for instance, so it's not only record for me but also other factors at play.
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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by PurpleMustReign »

If the Vikings regress further, then it is time to look for a new coach. Zimmer hasn't been here long enough to earn more than a couple of underachieving seasons, imo


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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by fiestavike »

I think it would be a mistake, but I expect it to happen if they don't make the playoffs. Making the playoffs is pretty much what this fanbase expects and demands. Everyone *wants* to win a Super Bowl, but just being competitive is enough to keep us enthused. The organization has basically taken that approach since they were owned by multiple owners and through the McCombs years. I really hoped the Wilfs would bring a new attitude, but so far I don't see it. Its an organization plagued by low standards and pretty much has been for decades. The current temperature of the fans is pretty much in line with the organizational standards - be creative enough to get a little more production out of your components, seek improvement instead of excellence, putter along and see if maybe you can squeeze an unlikely superbowl victory out of a tenuous approach. *At least* make the playoffs and aim to improve your regular season record by 1 or 2 games each year. If you fall to 8-8, replace them with someone who might be able to make a little better use of the pieces on the board and get tthe team back to 10-6, where at least they're in the playoffs and 'anything can happen'.

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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by Mothman »

fiestavike wrote:I think it would be a mistake, but I expect it to happen if they don't make the playoffs. Making the playoffs is pretty much what this fanbase expects and demands. Everyone *wants* to win a Super Bowl, but just being competitive is enough to keep us enthused. The organization has basically taken that approach since they were owned by multiple owners and through the McCombs years. I really hoped the Wilfs would bring a new attitude, but so far I don't see it. Its an organization plagued by low standards and pretty much has been for decades. The current temperature of the fans is pretty much in line with the organizational standards - be creative enough to get a little more production out of your components, seek improvement instead of excellence, putter along and see if maybe you can squeeze an unlikely superbowl victory out of a tenuous approach. *At least* make the playoffs and aim to improve your regular season record by 1 or 2 games each year. If you fall to 8-8, replace them with someone who might be able to make a little better use of the pieces on the board and get tthe team back to 10-6, where at least they're in the playoffs and 'anything can happen'.

:wallbang:
I'm a little fuzzy on the exact source of your frustration. Is it mainly with the organization's standards? Do you feel they are holding Zimmer back from a pursuit of excellence rather than just improvement (I ask that because of your first sentence)?

I'm certainly not a fan of the idea that they just need to reach the postseason and "'anything can happen" approach.
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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by fiestavike »

Mothman wrote: I'm a little fuzzy on the exact source of your frustration. Is it mainly with the organization's standards? Do you feel they are holding Zimmer back from a pursuit of excellence rather than just improvement (I ask that because of your first sentence)?

I'm certainly not a fan of the idea that they just need to reach the postseason and "'anything can happen" approach.
I am mainly frustrated with the organization. There's a lot of conjecture in this, and it may be wrong, and you can disregard it, but my instinct is that Zimmer will be fired if they have another season like we just had. I think at some point this season Zimmer began coaching for his job rather than for excellence, and cost the team Norv Turner. I think all of this happens because the organizational standard is short sighted and geared toward minimal achievement rather than lasting excellence. These things have a way of being overtly expressed OR filter down through an organization. I think the fans want to make the playoffs, the Wilfs want to make the playoffs, and a great coach wants to build a great team. Period. When those priorities get out of whack, bad things happen. Compromises are made that shouldn't be made, corners are cut...the Vikings this year became DESPERATE in my opinion and made a lot of poor decisions.

I think in the right circumstance Zimmer will be a great coach. It probably won't be in Minnesota.
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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by Mothman »

fiestavike wrote:I am mainly frustrated with the organization. There's a lot of conjecture in this, and it may be wrong, and you can disregard it, but my instinct is that Zimmer will be fired if they have another season like we just had. I think at some point this season Zimmer began coaching for his job rather than for excellence, and cost the team Norv Turner. I think all of this happens because the organizational standard is short sighted and geared toward minimal achievement rather than lasting excellence. These things have a way of being overtly expressed OR filter down through an organization. I think the fans want to make the playoffs, the Wilfs want to make the playoffs, and a great coach wants to build a great team. Period. When those priorities get out of whack, bad things happen. Compromises are made that shouldn't be made, corners are cut...the Vikings this year became DESPERATE in my opinion and made a lot of poor decisions.
Thanks for the clarification. I do think the organization can sometimes get too focused on short-term goals and lose sight of what they need to do to achieve long-term success (ie: excellence).

I think coaches want to build great teams but they probably want to make the playoffs as much as anybody, especially following a season that ended like the 2016 season did for the Vikings. It seems safe to assume Zimmer wanted to build on his previous success. Did he have any reason to feel he was coaching for his job this season? He was coming off a division title and had just been rewarded with a contract extension. I'm inclined to think any desperation he felt came from within. After a 5-0 start, I imagine he had high expectations for his team and he seems to have them for himself. He and his team may have simply faced a test they both failed in 2016.
I think in the right circumstance Zimmer will be a great coach. It probably won't be in Minnesota.
Perhaps not. It might depend on what both he and Rick Spielman learn from these past few seasons. I mention the latter because their fates with the Vikings are inextricably tied together.
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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by mansquatch »

They are linked by they have different weaknesses.

Zimmer seems to have a strong handle on all aspects of Defense. On ST things are mostly going well outside of the kicking issues.

Offense is a problem, but the why and how of it is murky. Is it because Zim delegated too much to Norv. (Noting that there will always be delegation to a coordinator.) Or is it Zimmer dictating a conservative approach that is too far to the side of playing it safe, hampering the team? I don't know the exact answer, just that it isn't working.

Additionally, Zimmer has shown some weakness on the Morale Front. We've seen several performances in each of his seasons that are inexplicable. The loss on MNF to SF in 2015 and loss at home to IND last season are the biggest examples of this. Also, they went 3-8 down the stretch this year. There were explanations for some of that slide, but some of it was the Defense, which was healthy, just not playing complete games. The team's resolve seemed to fold at times and they went in the tank. It is Zimmer's job as the HC to make sure that doens't happen.

Spielman has an obvious issue with finding OL talent. (I think coaching plays a role here as well.) The QB selection has been questionable. However, beyond that they've done rather well drafting most other positions. It hasn't been perfect. I know others think this is worse than I'm labeling it, but this is where I stand on the deal.

I think there are two major challenges facing the team in 2017:
1.) Figuring out the "new normal" for NFL OL both in terms of drafting them as well as coaching them so as to get results that both better and quicker (to get reults) given the state of the college game. Also upgrading our current starting line up.
2.) Resolving the morale issue that seems to cost us 2-4 silly losses each season under Zimmer.
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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by Mothman »

mansquatch wrote:They are linked by they have different weaknesses.

Zimmer seems to have a strong handle on all aspects of Defense. On ST things are mostly going well outside of the kicking issues.

Offense is a problem, but the why and how of it is murky. Is it because Zim delegated too much to Norv. (Noting that there will always be delegation to a coordinator.) Or is it Zimmer dictating a conservative approach that is too far to the side of playing it safe, hampering the team? I don't know the exact answer, just that it isn't working.

Additionally, Zimmer has shown some weakness on the Morale Front. We've seen several performances in each of his seasons that are inexplicable. The loss on MNF to SF in 2015 and loss at home to IND last season are the biggest examples of this. Also, they went 3-8 down the stretch this year. There were explanations for some of that slide, but some of it was the Defense, which was healthy, just not playing complete games. The team's resolve seemed to fold at times and they went in the tank. It is Zimmer's job as the HC to make sure that doens't happen.

Spielman has an obvious issue with finding OL talent. (I think coaching plays a role here as well.) The QB selection has been questionable. However, beyond that they've done rather well drafting most other positions. It hasn't been perfect. I know others think this is worse than I'm labeling it, but this is where I stand on the deal.

I think there are two major challenges facing the team in 2017:
1.) Figuring out the "new normal" for NFL OL both in terms of drafting them as well as coaching them so as to get results that both better and quicker (to get reults) given the state of the college game. Also upgrading our current starting line up.
2.) Resolving the morale issue that seems to cost us 2-4 silly losses each season under Zimmer.
I think what you're referring to as a morale issue is actually more of a game-planning/exploitable weaknesses issue. When I look at the blowout losses the Vikes have suffered in each of the last 3 years, what stands out to me most are those issues. That said, regardless of what we see as the root problem, they need to avoid suffering those blowout losses.

Figuring out the OL issues is a huge hurdle. If they can clear it, that should help them take care of some other things too.

Another major challenge they need to solve is scoring, especially in the red zone, where their TD-scoring efficiency has steadily declined under Zimmer. They've been among the worst teams in the league in that area over the last 2 seasons. That gets back to the overarching problem with their offense that you mentioned above.
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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by chicagopurple »

I CANNOT blame Sparano.....You cant build a OL out of a bunch of over-priced Jello.
Last edited by chicagopurple on Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by IrishViking »

chicagopurple wrote:I can blame Sparano.....You cant build a OL out of a bunch of over-priced Jello.

I assume you meant cant? Or did Sparano have some odd coaching habits?
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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by Alaskan »

autobon7 wrote:I'm with PHP....if they play their cards right it is possible.


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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by 808vikingsfan »

Alaskan wrote:

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x3

No matter how ugly people want to paint this season, the Vikings were only 2 games out of first place in the North. Make the oline respectable, add a DT and RB. They'll have as good a chance as any other team. It's going to be a fun 2017.
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Re: Offensive staff has almost completely turned over in a y

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

808vikingsfan wrote: x3

No matter how ugly people want to paint this season, the Vikings were only 2 games out of first place in the North. Make the oline respectable, add a DT and RB. They'll have as good a chance as any other team. It's going to be a fun 2017.
Exactly. Granted, we'll see how everything goes in a few months but some are acting like the sky is falling. We went 8-8 and were 2 games out. No less games that were decided in the final seconds. Plus a game like the Dallas one where we lose by 2. It's not like we're the 1-15 Browns. Atlanta was 8-8 last year and should have won the SB. That isn't out of the question with this team. Especially with how good our defense is.
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