What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Mothman »

autobon7 wrote:I agree with PHP here. Plus I would like to add...... some of the recent comments that Zim made in regards to Uncle Norv. If it is accurate he has said that Norv was not open to suggestion which is something we all had assumed. Even though Zim is the HC I think he let Norv run the show....put too much faith in him and it didn't pan out which reflects back on Zim. So yeah it is ultimately Zims baby but I'll be willing to bet he learned from that mistake and moving forward with Shurmur we will see an offense that will show a bit more urgency and input from Zim/others. Rebuilding the OL remains the most critical piece of the puzzle.......with the rest of the team/positions solid and for the most part fairly deep. I think most will agree that this offseason will be the most critical in recent memory in terms of fixing the OL and winning now. The window will not stay open for long.
I thought last season was the most critical in recent memory. :( Now I fear a championship window has likely closed before it truly opened.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

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YUP
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

chicagopurple wrote:CP hasnt bloomed as he should
Bottom line is, he has matured and improved. He went from borderline bust to being much more of a factor. No matter what way you cut it, it's a sign of improvement and development
Rudolph is simply a great mature talent and I dont think Zim made him what he is
I didnt say Zim "made him" but he also improved this year.

Thielen IS a good example of progress
Yes.

Bridgewater has NOT in anyway proven himself. He is just a big maybe who has shown no downfield passing threat. His biggest assets so far is that he is a nice kid who can throw the ball away rather then toss interceptions. His "progress" is nothing for Zim to brag about and giving the QB coaching job to Norv's Little Boy was Lame Nepotism as its worst.....again THAT is all on Spielman.
lol talk about putting words into mouths. I also never said Bridgewater has "proven himself". I just said that he was looking pretty promising in the preseason
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

autobon7 wrote: I agree with PHP here. Plus I would like to add...... some of the recent comments that Zim made in regards to Uncle Norv. If it is accurate he has said that Norv was not open to suggestion which is something we all had assumed. Even though Zim is the HC I think he let Norv run the show....put too much faith in him and it didn't pan out which reflects back on Zim. So yeah it is ultimately Zims baby but I'll be willing to bet he learned from that mistake and moving forward with Shurmur we will see an offense that will show a bit more urgency and input from Zim/others. Rebuilding the OL remains the most critical piece of the puzzle.......with the rest of the team/positions solid and for the most part fairly deep. I think most will agree that this offseason will be the most critical in recent memory in terms of fixing the OL and winning now. The window will not stay open for long.
Agreed as well.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Mothman wrote: I thought last season was the most critical in recent memory. :( Now I fear a championship window has likely closed before it truly opened.
No. Last season was critical but I'm not going to sit here and say we drafted "bad". No less, we have the majority of this team coming back this year. So why all of the sudden has a window closed? This isnt the 2010 offseason where we had a team of old farts that were standing on their last leg and it was into complete rebuild mode after that. So to say that a window might have closed makes no sense to me. We still have Joseph, Griffen, Hunter, Robison, Stephen, Barr, Kendricks, Lamur, Rhodes, Waynes, Smith, Sendejo, Diggs, Rudolph, Thielen, Boone, Berger, Bradford. I mean that is a lot of talent right there. Then you have guys like Treadwell, Alexander, free agents we sign, and draft picks we get. It's not like these guys are just randomly going to disappear. This team has talent. So like I said, to say a door might have closed just doesnt make much sense to me. The door is most definitely still open because of the guys I just named above.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

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Pondering Her Percy wrote:No. Last season was critical but I'm not going to sit here and say we drafted "bad". No less, we have the majority of this team coming back this year. So why all of the sudden has a window closed?


As I said, I don't think it had truly opened and now a huge rebuild is necessary on the OL, I think they're going to lose some key players and I'm not convinced the backups and youth behind those players will be able to step up and play at the same level, at least not at first.
This isnt the 2010 offseason where we had a team of old farts that were standing on their last leg and it was into complete rebuild mode after that. So to say that a window might have closed makes no sense to me.We still have Joseph, Griffen, Hunter, Robison, Stephen, Barr, Kendricks, Lamur, Rhodes, Waynes, Smith, Sendejo, Diggs, Rudolph, Thielen, Boone, Berger, Bradford. I mean that is a lot of talent right there.
Some of it's pretty average talent and at least one or two of those players might not be back.
It's not like these guys are just randomly going to disappear. This team has talent.
So does most of the competition. What's going to make the Vikes rise above the rest?

I just don't look at the Vikings and see a likely Super Bowl-winning roster or a roster that's just one offseason away from becoming one. Maybe I'm wrong about that but I have to call 'em like I see 'em.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

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Pondering Her Percy wrote: Safety I didnt mind because Newman can play there
That is pure speculation. Safety and corner are completely different positions. Just because Newman is a good corner doesn't mean he can play safety effectively. Plus, retirement is still a major possibility for him.

The safety depth is a concern. Antone Exum even when healthy has shown nothing. Anthony Harris took a step back this year. I have hope for Jayron, but he looked lost when he had to play.
LB, Lamur can play just about any spot and was better than Greenway IMO.
Jury is still out on Lamur for me. He has the athleticism, I will give him that. Not sure he is a starting-type player.
Brothers and Cole can fill in at the middle.
Brothers looked great on special teams. Still, Brothers as a back-up/potential starter at linebacker is still a huge unknown. Cole is easily replaceable.
DT, if you look at a healthy roster, Joseph, Floyd, Stephen and Johnson is a solid group.
I'd subtract Floyd from the group - as he did nothing this season. Plus, Floyd could be packing his bags. If Linval were to go down - then what? A tandem of an aging Toby Johnson and Stephen does not inspire a lot of confidence.
I never said they didnt need quality players and quality depth. If they didnt, I would guess we are in the SB.
Never explicitly stated you did. Strange though, being on the other side of putting words in others' mouth - eh? :gone:
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Mothman wrote:
As I said, I don't think it had truly opened and now a huge rebuild is necessary on the OL, I think they're going to lose some key players and I'm not convinced the backups and youth behind those players will be able to step up and play at the same level, at least not at first.
I don't really think they're losing many key players. You continue to say that but I'm not sure where its coming from. We've been known to retain our own ever since Spielman has taken over.

Some of it's pretty average talent and at least one or two of those players might not be back.
I would say a select few are average but many of them are pretty solid players and key parts to this team. I'm not sure who you see leaving. I can't see Thielen leaving his home state. Are you saying Berger might retire? I mean I don't know who else you're really referring to.

So does most of the competition. What's going to make the Vikes rise above the rest?
Because there are many teams that aren't in a position like us with a very good defense and good skilled players on offense. It's not like we have holes all over this roster. A lot of teams do. That's why I think we have an advantage here.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

HardcoreVikesFan wrote:
That is pure speculation. Safety and corner are completely different positions. Just because Newman is a good corner doesn't mean he can play safety effectively. Plus, retirement is still a major possibility for him.
But you see older CBs make that switch because it doesnt require the speed or athleticism as CB does. So it could benefit him. It's benefited others. It's speculation yeah but I see no reason why Newman couldn't be average at worst.

Jury is still out on Lamur for me. He has the athleticism, I will give him that. Not sure he is a starting-type player.
Lamur was a tackling machine in the preseason and I can't imagine he covers worse than Greenway did.

Brothers looked great on special teams. Still, Brothers as a back-up/potential starter at linebacker is still a huge unknown. Cole is easily replaceable.
I mean theres a reason guys are backups. Usually because they aren't good enough to start. They just need to come in and play average. Which I think both Cole and Brothers could do.

I'd subtract Floyd from the group - as he did nothing this season. Plus, Floyd could be packing his bags. If Linval were to go down - then what? A tandem of an aging Toby Johnson and Stephen does not inspire a lot of confidence.
I said before, I don't see Floyd getting cut because of the dead money hit AND he IS a good player when healthy. Many on here wrote off Rudolph because of his injury history and look how that turned out. Pretty glad we didnt cut him loose just because we were mad he was always injured. Tom Johnson is the one aging. Not Toby Johnson. He was on our practice squad this year. Stephen is an ok backup. And as I said in my mock, I had us taking one in the 3rd. We have draft picks and free agency. How about we wait and see before we say we have no depth at DT.

Never explicitly stated you did. Strange though, being on the other side of putting words in others' mouth - eh? :gone:
Good one :roll: I see you're drinking the koolaid too.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

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Pondering Her Percy wrote:I don't really think they're losing many key players. You continue to say that but I'm not sure where its coming from.
I don't know what confuses you about it. I've listed them more than once.

They could lose Newman to retirement and Munnerlyn to free agency. That would be two of their top 3 CBs. They will likely lose Greenway to retirement. Peterson could be gone due to cap/contract issues. Patterson could leave via free agency. Kalil could be gone. Floyd could be gone. There are other possibilities too but those are the most significant.

Maybe most or all of those players will be back and perhaps some of them shouldn't be back but most of them have been important to the team in recent years and their return isn't guaranteed. Several of them are starters. Some of them have been among the best in the NFL in their roles.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Mothman wrote: I don't know what confuses you about it. I've listed them more than once.

They could lose Newman to retirement and Munnerlyn to free agency. That would be two of their top 3 CBs. They will likely lose Greenway to retirement. Peterson could be gone due to cap/contract issues. Patterson could leave via free agency. Kalil could be gone. Floyd could be gone. There are other possibilities too but those are the most significant.

Maybe most or all of those players will be back and perhaps some of them shouldn't be back but most of them have been important to the team in recent years and their return isn't guaranteed. Several of them are starters. Some of them have been among the best in the NFL in their roles.
I know you've listed them. That wasnt my point. I'm aware of who the free agents on this team are. What did Greenway bring to this team anymore other than leadership. I would have to imagine Lamur could fill in with ease. It wasnt a tough spot to fill. As for the CBs, yes thats why they drafted Alexander but if worse came to worse and we lost both Newman and Munnerlyn which I don't see happening, you're going to see us look to fill that void either in FA or the draft. Kalil's spot needed to be assessed regardless and will be if he does walk. I don't see Floyd going anywhere again because of the dead money hit and the comparison I made to Rudolph.

Either way, for all or even half of these guys to leave via FA seems very unlikely to me. Spielman has been notorious for keeping his own. It sounds like you're looking at it like all or most of those guys are leaving. You hardly ever see teams let that many guys walk. So this is why I said it's unlikely.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

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Pondering Her Percy wrote:I know you've listed them. That wasnt my point. I'm aware of who the free agents on this team are. What did Greenway bring to this team anymore other than leadership. I would have to imagine Lamur could fill in with ease.
Maybe he can. :confused:
As for the CBs, yes thats why they drafted Alexander but if worse came to worse and we lost both Newman and Munnerlyn which I don't see happening, you're going to see us look to fill that void either in FA or the draft.
Of course but that doesn't mean they will fill those spots so successfully that there won't be a drop off and in a defense that relies heavily on man to man coverage, a drop in the quality of coverage could make a real difference.
Either way, for all or even half of these guys to leave via FA seems very unlikely to me. Spielman has been notorious for keeping his own. It sounds like you're looking at it like all or most of those guys are leaving.
I'm not. If that's what I meant, I'd just say it. I'm simply talking about potential changes and unknowns that could impact the overall quality of the team.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Mothman wrote:

Maybe he can. :confused:
I'm not sure why that is confusing. I mean what does Greenway bring to the table at this point other than leadership? Lamur is a tackling machine (+1), is much more athletic and agile than Greenway (+2) and I cant imagine he's any worse in coverage than Greenway is (+3). I still believe the only reason Greenway got the nod at WLB this year is because it was probably his last year playing.
Of course but that doesn't mean they will fill those spots so successfully that there won't be a drop off and in a defense that relies heavily on man to man coverage, a drop in the quality of coverage could make a real difference.


I would have to imagine that if they think Newman is retiring, they push after Munnerlyn harder. I just cant see us going from 5 deep at CB to 3 deep without pressing Munnerlyn hard.
I'm not. If that's what I meant, I'd just say it. I'm simply talking about potential changes and unknowns that could impact the overall quality of the team.
Yeah I mean they are unknowns but I can only see a few at the max happening. Not sure how much of an impact it would really make.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

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Pondering Her Percy wrote:I'm not sure why that is confusing.
It's not. I just meant it to serve as a shrug and because it's the emoji for "confusion", that became confusing! :lol: Sorry about that.
I would have to imagine that if they think Newman is retiring, they push after Munnerlyn harder. I just cant see us going from 5 deep at CB to 3 deep without pressing Munnerlyn hard.
Yeah I mean they are unknowns but I can only see a few at the max happening. Not sure how much of an impact it would really make.
If the coverage becomes more vulnerable anywhere, that's a weakness that can be exploited.
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Re: What to make of the Vikings' quiet 2016 rookie class?

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

Mothman wrote:
It's not. I just meant it to serve as a shrug and because it's the emoji for "confusion", that became confusing! :lol: Sorry about that.
:lol: Too much confusion going on here
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