Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

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mansquatch
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by mansquatch »

I hope Jim comes back.

I agree with that comment by Seifert regarding the last 10 games and the coaches it would have gotten fired.

To me there isn't an argument to be made. Ultimately in the NFL you are what your record is. We can debate why it happened, but frankly, who cares?

The only question regarding Zimmer that matters is this: Can he turn things around to a point where they are competitive for a championship. It is a binary question, if the answer is no then they should fire him and move on.

I think the answer is yes. But I agree with the more negative people on here in one regard: It needs to happen next year. We've seen probably 8 games where the team has just been flat and/or tanked hard in the past two seasons. it is a sure sign of an issue where this coach somehow loses his team. That issue needs to get fixed before next season.
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Mothman »

mansquatch wrote:I hope Jim comes back.
Thanks. I was referring to the turn the discussion had taken, not the whole board.
I agree with that comment by Seifert regarding the last 10 games and the coaches it would have gotten fired.

To me there isn't an argument to be made. Ultimately in the NFL you are what your record is. We can debate why it happened, but frankly, who cares?

The only question regarding Zimmer that matters is this: Can he turn things around to a point where they are competitive for a championship. It is a binary question, if the answer is no then they should fire him and move on.

I think the answer is yes. But I agree with the more negative people on here in one regard: It needs to happen next year. We've seen probably 8 games where the team has just been flat and/or tanked hard in the past two seasons. it is a sure sign of an issue where this coach somehow loses his team. That issue needs to get fixed before next season.
Well said. That's pretty much how I feel about it, from the binary question to your conclusion about next season.

I'm undecided on my own answer to that binary question but so far, I'm leaning toward no, mainly because after 3 years, issues I saw in Zimmer's first season remain largely unresolved, particularly on offense. When combined with the "flat" games you mentioned and the collapse and dissent we saw this season, it's hard for me to feel confident that a championship run is just around the corner.
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by S197 »

Mothman wrote: Thanks. I was referring to the turn the discussion had taken, not the whole board.
We had Hutchinson, Longwell, and Allen on a plane ready to go!
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

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S197 wrote: We had Hutchinson, Longwell, and Allen on a plane ready to go!

:lol:
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by mansquatch »

I should clarify that I meant that the flat game issue needs to be resolved next season. The championship thing might be a different animal.

However, I'd like to point out that this team beat the Giants and Packers this season, two of the six NFC playoff teams. We played both DET and DAL to the wire, losing stupidly to both. I doubt anyone would argue that we were not competitive in those games. I like our chances against a team like ATL where our defense matches up well. We played a full strength SEA to the wire last year in the post season. So against the class of the NFC it is plausible that this roster can be quite competitive and even win. So in that respect a trip to the SB is not out of the question. (And this was in spite of the crap OL.)

Injuries are a factor, but IMO, confidence is the bigger issue. It is probably the single largest reason why we are 8-8 and not something better than that. This of course is exactly the issue with the flat games and what Zimmer needs to fix.

I differ from you Jim in that I think Zimmer can fix it. He has been honest about the issue and specifically identified the problem publicly. So really the only question is if he can succeed or not. We'll find out.

As an aside: I do think that Walsh was a factor in the first part of the slump and probably an underrated source of "angst" for the team going back to 2015. He was integral to our first loss to DET in 2016 as well as the playoff loss to SEA last year. Having Forbath on the team probably isn't much of a tangible improvement on paper, but I think "not having Walsh" removes a source of locker room stress from the team. I doubt that on it's own it will solve their woes, but I think having Walsh out of the picture will make it easier to accomplish fixing the above issues.
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Demi »

Regardless of injuries, the offense was not that good to begin with. I still believe the season would have went the same way even if the injuries to Teddy and AP would not have happened. A lot of people give Zim a pass for the injuries, but in reality injuries saved Zim's job.
I think either way his job was safe.
Without them, this team wins more than 7 games.
With them they are clearly a big reason they didn't win more than 7 games.

This isn't fans using a couple half #### injuries as an excuse to feel better about their team and the failed season. The entire offense fell apart. And I don't put any of that on a defensive minded head coach who help up his side of the equation as long as could be expected. This isn't Childress with full control getting the job based on Andy Reid and keeping it based on his defense. There was nothing Zimmer could have done to affect the outcome of this season in a more positive direction IMO. Spielman? The offensive coaches he hired? The offense he put together?...
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

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Demi wrote: I think either way his job was safe.
Without them, this team wins more than 7 games.
With them they are clearly a big reason they didn't win more than 7 games.

This isn't fans using a couple half #### injuries as an excuse to feel better about their team and the failed season. The entire offense fell apart. And I don't put any of that on a defensive minded head coach who help up his side of the equation as long as could be expected. This isn't Childress with full control getting the job based on Andy Reid and keeping it based on his defense. There was nothing Zimmer could have done to affect the outcome of this season in a more positive direction IMO. Spielman? The offensive coaches he hired? The offense he put together?...

Zimmer put together his coaching staff, not Spielman. Zimmer is the head coach, in charge of the team,. It doesn't matter if he's a defensive-minded coach or an offensive-minded coach. As the head coach, his responsibility is to coach the entire team, not one unit.
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

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mansquatch wrote:I should clarify that I meant that the flat game issue needs to be resolved next season. The championship thing might be a different animal.
I understood what you meant. :)
However, I'd like to point out that this team beat the Giants and Packers this season, two of the six NFC playoff teams. We played both DET and DAL to the wire, losing stupidly to both. I doubt anyone would argue that we were not competitive in those games. I like our chances against a team like ATL where our defense matches up well. We played a full strength SEA to the wire last year in the post season. So against the class of the NFC it is plausible that this roster can be quite competitive and even win. So in that respect a trip to the SB is not out of the question. (And this was in spite of the crap OL.)

Injuries are a factor, but IMO, confidence is the bigger issue. It is probably the single largest reason why we are 8-8 and not something better than that. This of course is exactly the issue with the flat games and what Zimmer needs to fix.

I differ from you Jim in that I think Zimmer can fix it. He has been honest about the issue and specifically identified the problem publicly. So really the only question is if he can succeed or not. We'll find out.
I don't know if he can fix it or not. I'm not ruling that out. I just lack confidence in his ability to get this team where it needs to go, especially after this season. As you said, we'll find out.
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Jordysghost »

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Oh of course it is. But at the same time, are you honestly going to sit there and say if we had AP, Kalil, Smith and Harris for the entire year that we would be 8-8 or worse? Highly; highly doubtful. Our OC resigned and we had to modfiy our offense because of those 3 OL being out. Not sure how we could go 8-8 or worse with all those guys in the fold and we'd probably still have turner here
First off, I think AP would have made a difference, but you took a distinct risk making a back his age with his injury history a key offensive cog.

Yea, I have seen plenty of teams forced to adjust their offense due to injuries on the like, every single year there is always one. You act like this is some unfathomable sutuation thay noone ever encountered before.
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Texas Vike »

Mothman wrote:
Zimmer put together his coaching staff, not Spielman. Zimmer is the head coach, in charge of the team,. It doesn't matter if he's a defensive-minded coach or an offensive-minded coach. As the head coach, his responsibility is to coach the entire team, not one unit.

It seems to me that Demi's post is EXACTLY the fan opinion that troubles you most, right Jim? I totally get why. He isn't just a D coordinator. He's our head coach. It's time for him to fulfill all of the duties of that position.
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Mothman »

Texas Vike wrote:It seems to me that Demi's post is EXACTLY the fan opinion that troubles you most, right Jim?
Correct!
I totally get why. He isn't just a D coordinator. He's our head coach. It's time for him to fulfill all of the duties of that position.
Exactly right.

Zimmer did a great job of taking a defense in need of an overhaul and building it into one of the league's better units but too many people are willing to overlook the fact that an offense that had climbed to 13th in the league (with Ponder and Cassel at QB!) dropped into the bottom 15% or so in Zimmer's first season and has stayed there.

That drop and stagnation is indicative of what worries me most about Zimmer's Vikings. Under Zimmer, the team's been able to significantly improve in the area he knows best: pass defense. The improvement there has been dramatic. The run defense isn't better. In fact, the Vikings have allowed a higher yards per carry average in each of the past 3 seasons than they did in each of the previous 3. The offense has grown worse and this year, without Peterson and with the o-line woes, the running game was the worst in the NFL.

It's been evident for 3 years now that the offense and run defense needed to get better and that hasn't happened in any substantive way. Combine that with the dissension in the ranks and the collapse this season and I'm left wondering if Zimmer's a pass defense specialist who's simply in over his head as a head coach.
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Texas Vike »

Mothman wrote: Correct!
Exactly right.

Zimmer did a great job of taking a defense in need of an overhaul and building it into one of the league's better units but too many people are willing to overlook the fact that an offense that had climbed to 13th in the league (with Ponder and Cassel at QB!) dropped into the bottom 15% or so in Zimmer's first season and has stayed there.

That drop and stagnation is indicative of what worries me most about Zimmer's Vikings. Under Zimmer, the team's been able to significantly improve in the area he knows best: pass defense. The improvement there has been dramatic. The run defense isn't better. In fact, the Vikings have allowed a higher yards per carry average in each of the past 3 seasons than they did in each of the previous 3. The offense has grown worse and this year, without Peterson and with the o-line woes, the running game was the worst in the NFL.

It's been evident for 3 years now that the offense and run defense needed to get better and that hasn't happened in any substantive way. Combine that with the dissension in the ranks and the collapse this season and I'm left wondering if Zimmer's a pass defense specialist who's simply in over his head as a head coach.

Great post, Jim. Your position seems completely reasonable to me. I think this is the clearest that I've ever seen it stated, btw.
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Mothman »

Texas Vike wrote:
Great post, Jim. Your position seems completely reasonable to me. I think this is the clearest that I've ever seen it stated, btw.
Thanks. I'm glad to hear that. I realized as I was typing it that if I'd actually been able to state my position that clearly in the first place, I might have saved myself some difficult discussions. :lol:

I'm not giving up on Zimmer but I very much feel he's entering a "prove it" year.
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by mmvikes »

IMO, Zimmer and Spielman had a lot of rebuilding to do. Pretty tough to rebuild an entire team at once. They seemed to concentrate on the defense first as that was the most in need. They did not exclude the offense, but focused more on the defense. In that Zimm has been very successful. Losing Teddy was devastating but was negated by Ricks trade for Sam. I may be in the minority, but I don't see losing AP as a huge factor. Loadholts inability to recover from injuries and retirement hurt us. The Smith signing didn't work out. I think CJ would have been better at RT than moving last minute to LT when Kalil went down. Whatever happened to Harris head hurt also. He was good at RG the previous year. Fusco never regained his solid play at RG. Not keeping Sully was a mistake as it pushed Berger to start at C instead of having an exceptional backup at multiple positions, although C was our best oline spot this year. Boone, although a major improvment, was not what was hoped for. Kalil is below average, but we did find out that it could get worse. Sirles and Easton have performed well when called upon. Long may have been an improvement had he not gone down so quickly. I think you can easily blame injuries for this years record and give Zimm a pass.
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Re: Mike Zimmer begins offseason of ‘soul searching"

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

mmvikes wrote:IMO, Zimmer and Spielman had a lot of rebuilding to do. Pretty tough to rebuild an entire team at once. They seemed to concentrate on the defense first as that was the most in need. They did not exclude the offense, but focused more on the defense. In that Zimm has been very successful. Losing Teddy was devastating but was negated by Ricks trade for Sam. I may be in the minority, but I don't see losing AP as a huge factor. Loadholts inability to recover from injuries and retirement hurt us. The Smith signing didn't work out. I think CJ would have been better at RT than moving last minute to LT when Kalil went down. Whatever happened to Harris head hurt also. He was good at RG the previous year. Fusco never regained his solid play at RG. Not keeping Sully was a mistake as it pushed Berger to start at C instead of having an exceptional backup at multiple positions, although C was our best oline spot this year. Boone, although a major improvment, was not what was hoped for. Kalil is below average, but we did find out that it could get worse. Sirles and Easton have performed well when called upon. Long may have been an improvement had he not gone down so quickly. I think you can easily blame injuries for this years record and give Zimm a pass.
As I have said before, it was a huge killer and I don't look at this season as a true tell of Zims abilities as a coach. He went 8-8 with a team that had an offense that wasnt great to begin with and then got murdered by injuries. I think Zim is a great coach for this team and have no worries when it comes to him and Spielman
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