Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by losperros » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:11 pm

S197 wrote:I don't think last year was a fluke, I think we saw the cohesion of players who played like a team for a guy they had faith in. YMMV.
I agree. But that's the main reason why I'm really questioning what I saw last weekend. It looked as if the team was in complete disarray, what with some D players flailing around like chickens with their heads cut off. On top of that, there seemed to be little if any passion from the team. Have the players lost faith?

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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:59 pm

losperros wrote: I agree. But that's the main reason why I'm really questioning what I saw last weekend. It looked as if the team was in complete disarray, what with some D players flailing around like chickens with their heads cut off. On top of that, there seemed to be little if any passion from the team. Have the players lost faith?

That's also how it looked last year vs Seattle and it ended up meaning nothing
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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by Mothman » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:22 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
That's also how it looked last year vs Seattle and it ended up meaning nothing
What it means is that this team still gets seriously out-schemed and out-played too often, even when there's a lot on the line for them. It happened against Seattle. It happened against GB. It happened against San Francisco. It happened against the Bears and Colts this year.

The Colts used personnel to minimize Munnerlyn's playing time on Sunday and to coax the Vikings into playing 3 LBs more often. Then they went after those LBs, especially Greenway. They also went after the safeties, knowing Smith was out and the Vikes would be more vulnerable there.

The offense, of course, tends to be pretty hopeless when they fall very far behind. That's been true for 3 years now.

I think it means something because it keeps happening.

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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:42 am

Mothman wrote:
What it means is that this team still gets seriously out-schemed and out-played too often, even when there's a lot on the line for them. It happened against Seattle. It happened against GB. It happened against San Francisco. It happened against the Bears and Colts this year.

The Colts used personnel to minimize Munnerlyn's playing time on Sunday and to coax the Vikings into playing 3 LBs more often. Then they went after those LBs, especially Greenway. They also went after the safeties, knowing Smith was out and the Vikes would be more vulnerable there.

The offense, of course, tends to be pretty hopeless when they fall very far behind. That's been true for 3 years now.

I think it means something because it keeps happening.
So you're just going to pick apart any bad defensive performance they've had over the past two years (which arent many) and say that they are getting out-coached too often? I mean if you want to get that technical you could do that for just about every team in the NFL.

There are also such thing as the players just playing bad and not doing their job. It happens in every sport and at every level. It doesn't necessarily mean you were "out-coached".

I mean I guess you could say for the Indy game he was since they exposed Harris and Greenway and we didnt expect that however, I'm not sure how you really prepare for something like that when you're in week 15 and a team hasnt done it to you all season. One thing I will say is he should be playing Lamur more instead of Greenway. It's almost like they are just doing Chad a favor because of who he is which is pretty annoying. As for Harris, not much you can do there. It was either him or Kearse
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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by Mothman » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:55 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:There are also such thing as the players just playing bad and not doing their job. It happens in every sport and at every level. It doesn't necessarily mean you were "out-coached".


It doesn't necessarily mean that but in this case, and in too many others, I think the Vikings have been out-coached. They've been beaten strategically, not just because players performed poorly.

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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by Holzberg » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:15 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: But clearly you are on the "I dont like Mike Zimmer no matter what anyone says" bandwagon so I'm not sure where we're going with all this because I dont see you hopping off anytime soon
And clearly you are on the "I like Zimmer no matter what anyone says because he is like me as a coach" bandwagon.

Everyone thinks differently and when people don't agree with you then you fire back at them with this type of message. If that is how Zimmer is, which it looks that way with Norv anyway, then you and him are a lot of like after all. Instead of getting upset that people don't agree with you and the fact that you can't change their mind, than just accept it and move on... like Turner.

I don't post my thoughts on forums to change people's minds. I do it to have discussion and see how others view or feel about things. If everyone agreed with me then what's the point of posting anything. I like when people fire back at me... that's the best part about being here :)

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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:59 am

Holzberg wrote: And clearly you are on the "I like Zimmer no matter what anyone says because he is like me as a coach" bandwagon.

Everyone thinks differently and when people don't agree with you then you fire back at them with this type of message. If that is how Zimmer is, which it looks that way with Norv anyway, then you and him are a lot of like after all. Instead of getting upset that people don't agree with you and the fact that you can't change their mind, than just accept it and move on... like Turner.

I don't post my thoughts on forums to change people's minds. I do it to have discussion and see how others view or feel about things. If everyone agreed with me then what's the point of posting anything. I like when people fire back at me... that's the best part about being here :)
The writing was on the wall for Turner if he didnt change his ways and adapt. Thats exactly what Mike Zimmer did was adapt and wanted to make a change. Guys say he's too stubborn to make changes and then he tries to make changes with Turner and guys fire back saying he handled it poorly, there was "dysfunction" there, etc, etc. Thats what drives me nuts. No less I've never seen so many people complain more about an OC on game day than this board has Norv Turner (actually Musgrave was probably more) and now that he resigned, guys are trying to defend him and point the finger at Mike Zimmer. Its funny how quick people change their minds on here and tend to talk out of both sides of their mouth (not saying you specifically, just in general)
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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by Mothman » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:18 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:The writing was on the wall for Turner if he didnt change his ways and adapt. Thats exactly what Mike Zimmer did was adapt and wanted to make a change. Guys say he's too stubborn to make changes and then he tries to make changes with Turner and guys fire back saying he handled it poorly, there was "dysfunction" there, etc, etc.
You're making a host of assumptions about Turner. We don't know the exact nature of his disagreement with Zimmer. All we can do is guess, which is what you've been doing.

It's possible Turner wanted to adapt in different ways than Zimmer and that's what led to the rift. We simply don't know.
No less I've never seen so many people complain more about an OC on game day than this board has Norv Turner (actually Musgrave was probably more) and now that he resigned, guys are trying to defend him and point the finger at Mike Zimmer. Its funny how quick people change their minds on here and tend to talk out of both sides of their mouth (not saying you specifically, just in general)
I don't think many of us were happy with Turner's offense in Minnesota but the finger was being pointed at Zimmer in regard to the offense long before Norv left. That's not a new, post-Turner development and it doesn't represent a change of mind or double talk.

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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:25 am

Mothman wrote:
You're making a host of assumptions about Turner. We don't know the exact nature of his disagreement with Zimmer. All we can do is guess, which is what you've been doing.

It's possible Turner wanted to adapt in different ways than Zimmer and that's what led to the rift. We simply don't know.
I feel like we do know. Turner spoke out and said we had different views of where the offense was going. Then IMMEDIATELY after he left, we went into a quick drop short pass game. So with Turner leaving, I would have to imagine this short pass game was something he DIDNT want to do. I'm not sure what else could have really happened

I don't think many of us were happy with Turner's offense in Minnesota but the finger was being pointed at Zimmer in regard to the offense long before Norv left. That's not a new, post-Turner development and it doesn't represent a change of mind or double talk.
Guess I missed the blaming Zim for the offense posts because I've seen an awful lot of Norv on here
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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by Mothman » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:57 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:I feel like we do know.
You may feel like we know but we don't actually know. If we knew, guessing or assuming would be unnecessary.
Guess I missed the blaming Zim for the offense posts because I've seen an awful lot of Norv on here
I guess you did. Nevertheless, those posts were made.

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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:30 pm

Mothman wrote:
You may feel like we know but we don't actually know. If we knew, guessing or assuming would be unnecessary.
Turner practically came out and said it. It's not like Turner wanted to go to a short passing game too. Otherwise he would have stayed. What else is there to really figure out??

Or are you saying "you may feel like we know but we actually dont know" because I say the same thing to you regarding whether Spielman was calling the shots pre-2012 or not? :lol:
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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by IrishViking » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:38 pm

Or maybe Norv had a different methodology for figure out the problems :confused:


You guys make it sound so simple. Why don't you become the OC?

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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:41 pm

IrishViking wrote:Or maybe Norv had a different methodology for figure out the problems :confused:


You guys make it sound so simple. Why don't you become the OC?
Nobody is saying it's simple. It's just by the looks of it, Norv didnt want a change and Zimmer did. And that's why Norv left. Nothing is simple with this OL. Hence why we have a modified offense that requires quick drops and passes. Pretty obvious
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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by Mothman » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:50 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:Turner practically came out and said it. It's not like Turner wanted to go to a short passing game too. Otherwise he would have stayed. What else is there to really figure out??
Plenty. What did Turner want to do? I don't think we should just assume it's what he was doing. he undoubtedly understood there were personnel issues on the offense too. Maybe he had very adjustments in mind.

When Turner left, he played politician and said he felt he was "holding them back from things all getting on the same page. I don't want anyone to think I was bailing. It just wasn't working." He also said '"It's something people may not understand," Turner said. "It's not me against somebody else. The situation was such ... I don't think I could get done the things we needed to get done. It wasn't something you just wake up and decide. It's been building. It wasn't going to work with me. So let me get out of the way and let them have a chance to make it work."

I think there's more than one way to interpret that. I also think he may have been undermined by the hiring of Shurmur, who has been a dink n' dunk playcaller his whole career, something that fits with Zimmer's apparently conservative offensive philosophy. Turner's stint with the Vikings was atypical of his career. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, it was the poorest offensive stretch of his career as a coordinator and head coach. After he left, the Vikings doubled down on conservative playcalling. Some of that was obviously due to OL limitations but when I read between the lines of his comments and compare his time in MIN to what he did elsewhere, I have to wonder if he wasn't handcuffed a bit not only by personnel but by conservative coaching philosophy. That's what his statement implies to me: he wasn't going to be allowed to do what he thought was necessary to make the offense work.

That's speculation, too, of course, but it would be nice to know what if anything, Turner was proposing to address the Vikings issues on offense.
Or are you saying "you may feel like we know but we actually dont know" because I say the same thing to you regarding whether Spielman was calling the shots pre-2012 or not? :lol:
:lol: No, that's not it.

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Re: Interview that nearly ended Zimmer’s head-coaching dream

Post by Mothman » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:51 pm

IrishViking wrote:Or maybe Norv had a different methodology for figure out the problems :confused:
Exactly. We don't know what he wanted to do. We just know he didn't think he was going to be able to do it in Minnesota.

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