Cowboys @ Vikings Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 13

[Purple Reign]

I would like to make a final comment on the missed facemask on the 2 point attempt. The ref is being blamed because he was out of position, and for that play, he didn't see it because of where he was at. But I wouldn't put the blame because he was out of position. He was in his normal position, which is behind the qb and slightly off to one side. In order for him to see that facemask, he would have had to be at least even with Bradford or in front of him. Unfortunately the ref will always have a blind spot no matter where he is positioned. So I can't blame the ref for being out of position.

This is the perfect example of why I'm an advocate for being able to review any play. While this is a judgement type call, everyone who has seen the replay agrees that it was a penalty. For those of you who think it would slow the game down more, I don't understand your logic. While there may be more type of plays that can be reviewed, the total number of challenges wouldn't change (2 per team, with a chance of 3 if the first 2 are successfully challenged) so it's not like there would be more reviews to slow the game down. Besides, I would rather have the call be correct, especially in a critical situation like that.

[losperros]

I would like to make a final comment on the missed facemask on the 2 point attempt. The ref is being blamed because he was out of position, and for that play, he didn't see it because of where he was at. But I wouldn't put the blame because he was out of position. He was in his normal position, which is behind the qb and slightly off to one side. In order for him to see that facemask, he would have had to be at least even with Bradford or in front of him. Unfortunately the ref will always have a blind spot no matter where he is positioned. So I can't blame the ref for being out of position.

This is the perfect example of why I'm an advocate for being able to review any play. While this is a judgement type call, everyone who has seen the replay agrees that it was a penalty. For those of you who think it would slow the game down more, I don't understand your logic. While there may be more type of plays that can be reviewed, the total number of challenges wouldn't change (2 per team, with a chance of 3 if the first 2 are successfully challenged) so it's not like there would be more reviews to slow the game down. Besides, I would rather have the call be correct, especially in a critical situation like that.

FWIW, Patriots head coach Bill Belichick agrees with you. He's wanted to review ref's calls and missed calls for a while now.

[VikingLord]

Just to add another example to this point: even Collingsworth pointed out that of all the Vikings WRs Treadwell was not the fast one, so he was an odd target for the long bomb that we attempted. Carr had him stride for stride. Why even send him on that route when we have speedsters?

Because speed isn't the only thing that matters on a deep route?

Cris Carter wasn't all that fast and neither was Jerry Rice, but both were effective deep receivers due to their ability to sell fakes and physically contest the ball in the air. Simply beating a defender deep based on raw speed is pretty rare even for a "speedster" and usually requires an error on the part of a defender or a complete mismatch.

Bottom line on that play for me is that Treadwell was in position to make the play but wasn't open to begin with, plus the defender made a solid play on the ball. I can't see how anyone else on the Vikings catches that ball either.

[VikingLord]

I wonder that every week. They thought enough of him to sign him to a new deal and then relegated him to the bench. It's strange.

It's obvious isn't it? Wright is not earning his time on the field when they are practicing and preparing and so he sits. The coaches are not seeing the effort and dedication they need to from him and, until they do, he's not getting on the field regardless of whatever extension he signed prior to the season.

To be honest, Wright's numbers suggest he under-performed even last year for his position. Guys like him are fairly common in the pros and I was surprised the Vikes extended him given the overall lack of explosiveness in the passing game last year. I guess they either thought more of his potential than the numbers warranted, or they figured he was held back by other factors like the youth of the QB. Hard to say, but I don't fault the coaches for their decisions regarding personnel anymore. Guys earn their time on the field by the way they practice, prepare, and peform, and Wright is not doing any of those well enough to break into a still substandard group of receivers. He's got nobody to blame but himself.

[losperros]

Because speed isn't the only thing that matters on a deep route?

It matters when a WR is up against Brandon Carr during a critical play. So does experience. Treadwell has neither.

Cris Carter wasn't all that fast and neither was Jerry Rice, but both were effective deep receivers due to their ability to sell fakes and physically contest the ball in the air. Simply beating a defender deep based on raw speed is pretty rare even for a "speedster" and usually requires an error on the part of a defender or a complete mismatch.

I agree. But there are also plenty of speedsters (Randy Moss comes to mind) who smartly use their speed on deep routes. Speed isn't the only thing a WR needs but it sure is advantageous to have it.

Bottom line on that play for me is that Treadwell was in position to make the play but wasn't open to begin with, plus the defender made a solid play on the ball. I can't see how anyone else on the Vikings catches that ball either.

Bottom line for me is there are better options on the team than Treadwell for that particular play. We'll have to agree to disagree about no other Vikings WR could catch the pass, especially if they were at least a half step (if not more) faster than Treadwell while running the route.

[VikingLord]

Well, great minds think alike I guess. Only you do it faster.

Treadwell is such an enigma, but then again, our WRs have provoked a heck of a lot of questions from fans over the past 5-6 years. I would love to know what the rationale was when they chose him--what role did they imagine for him? With so many successful rookie WRs this season on other teams, it smells funny. Especially since we already had a first round WR who was taking a long time to get up to speed. I thought it was Norv's persnickety offense or demanding total precision from his WRs. Maybe it was and we just need more time to see real changes.

It seems obvious that Treadwell's strength is to make catches and fight hard for yards. He was also reputed to be a physical blocker. So why don't we see him more in those roles? Blocking for CP's screens? Slant patterns where he has a chance to pick up YAC.

I think Treadwell suffers from what I term the "athleticism complex". A player who is physically gifted coming out of college like an AD or a Treadwell has learned he can succeed based primarily on physical superiority. As a result, the player rarely develops an appreciation of the finer aspects of the position when he reaches the pro level where physical superiority is less of an advantage. Whereas in high school and even college he excels without working too hard at it, at the pro level where everything is studied to death and everyone playing is the cream of the athletic crop, defenders neutralize those strengths more easily. At that point the player has to study and prepare harder, plus for many they have to pay attention to things they simply never had to before.

For some lucky few, their physical gifts are so overwhelming that they can continue to thrive even at the pro level, but for most of these types of players, it will take them time to round out into complete performers at their positions, and even then they may still not have what it takes to become regular starters at the pro level.

The fact that Treadwell is finding the field is encouraging, but based on what I've seen so far he's got a long way to go. Hopefully not as long as Patterson, but a long way yet. I still think he can develop into a very good WR along the lines of a Cris Carter.

[PurpleMustReign]

FWIW, Patriots head coach Bill Belichick agrees with you. He's wanted to review ref's calls and missed calls for a while now.

I agree as well. I think each play should be challengable, and things like offsides, false start, and facemask should be in play. Holding or PI could be tricky though. Another option would be more officials on the field

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[VikingLord]

Bottom line for me is there are better options on the team than Treadwell for that particular play. We'll have to agree to disagree about no other Vikings WR could catch the pass, especially if they were at least a half step (if not more) faster than Treadwell while running the route.

They tried earlier to Patterson and he was covered too. Is there a better deep option than that on the team?

If that had been Patterson, Diggs, or Johnson instead of Treadwell I think the result on that particular play is the same due to the fact that that particular defender wasn't even close to being beaten on the play.

[Texas Vike]

Because speed isn't the only thing that matters on a deep route?

Cris Carter wasn't all that fast and neither was Jerry Rice, but both were effective deep receivers due to their ability to sell fakes and physically contest the ball in the air. Simply beating a defender deep based on raw speed is pretty rare even for a "speedster" and usually requires an error on the part of a defender or a complete mismatch.

Bottom line on that play for me is that Treadwell was in position to make the play but wasn't open to begin with, plus the defender made a solid play on the ball. I can't see how anyone else on the Vikings catches that ball either.

And why do you think he wasn't open to begin with? Hmmm. Lack of speed, maybe?

You can't imagine how anyone else on the Vikings could possibly outrun the defender? Your imagination skills are lacking!

[Nunin]

They tried earlier to Patterson and he was covered too. Is there a better deep option than that on the team?

If that had been Patterson, Diggs, or Johnson instead of Treadwell I think the result on that particular play is the same due to the fact that that particular defender wasn't even close to being beaten on the play.

I agree the play in question was covered well. The play where Treadwell blundered was down in the redzone when he didn't cut his route short.

AS for Wright? with the way this offense has to run things, depending on YAC, Wright is the one guy, other than Diggs, who has proven capable of that on gameday. He might be the best guy they have for that based on what has already been accomplished by any of them. The excuses made for this staff about why certain guys play and others don't is mystifying when you look at the past results of guys who were benched (CP, Wright) vs the results of guys who get mass snaps (CJ and Wallace).

I think the point is that when you have a makeshift o-line you have a makeshift offense and if you wish to succeed you gotta plug in guys who can best take advantage of those shifts. I see the Vikings being extremely slow in implementing these kinds of alterations.

I'm not saying Wright is the answer to the offensive woes....but he can't possibly be any worse than Treadwell or Johnson....much the same way CP wouldn't have been any worse than Wallace last year.

Musgrave is a waaayyy better mind for todays game in hindsight, and I'd never thought I'd say something like that.

[S197]

The throw to Treadwell is what he's here for. The guy is slow but is supposed to have a big catch radius and wins with physicality/technique. There were so many people on this forum saying "we don't need another speedster" "we need a guy who can fight for the ball" etc.

I said grab a playmaker like Fuller. "Fuller has hands of stone!" "one trick pony!" Well Mr. Hands of stone already has 450 yards and 2 TD's. I'm not bringing this up as a told you so, but a lot of comments are contradictory to what was said at the draft.

Treadwell may turn out to be good. Hopefully great. But if you can't rely on him to run a comeback route on 3rd down then what's the point of drafting him? Should he have been out there on that particular play? Maybe not but the where's Wright rhetoric was where's Treadwell a few weeks back.

He needs to see the field because we need another weapon. We know what we have in Wright, we need to see what Treadwell has, even if it means rookie goofups along the way.

[Mothman]

It's obvious isn't it? Wright is not earning his time on the field when they are practicing and preparing and so he sits.

Sorry, that's not obvious to me.

The coaches are not seeing the effort and dedication they need to from him and, until they do, he's not getting on the field regardless of whatever extension he signed prior to the season.

So his effort and dedication suddenly became an issue after not being an issue for years? You're putting forth the same "trust the coaching staff's judgment" argument that was used all last season to justify only throwing two passes to Patterson. I just don't buy it, especially about a player like Wright who has proven he can help the team win games.

To be honest, Wright's numbers suggest he under-performed even last year for his position.

Of course they do. He was part of a craptastic passing game. Mike Wallace's numbers in 2015 suggested under-performance too but paired with a better passer in 2016, his YPC has shot up and he's on track to more than double his output from last year in fewer games.

Guys like him are fairly common in the pros and I was surprised the Vikes extended him given the overall lack of explosiveness in the passing game last year. I guess they either thought more of his potential than the numbers warranted, or they figured he was held back by other factors like the youth of the QB. Hard to say, but I don't fault the coaches for their decisions regarding personnel anymore. Guys earn their time on the field by the way they practice, prepare, and peform, and Wright is not doing any of those well enough to break into a still substandard group of receivers. He's got nobody to blame but himself.

That shows a level of faith in the Vikings bumbling offensive coaching staff that I'd argue they don't deserve.

[Nunin]

The throw to Treadwell is what he's here for. The guy is slow but is supposed to have a big catch radius and wins with physicality/technique. There were so many people on this forum saying "we don't need another speedster" "we need a guy who can fight for the ball" etc.

I said grab a playmaker like Fuller. "Fuller has hands of stone!" "one trick pony!" Well Mr. Hands of stone already has 450 yards and 2 TD's. I'm not bringing this up as a told you so, but a lot of comments are contradictory to what was said at the draft.

Treadwell may turn out to be good. Hopefully great. But if you can't rely on him to run a comeback route on 3rd down then what's the point of drafting him? Should he have been out there on that particular play? Maybe not but the where's Wright rhetoric was where's Treadwell a few weeks back.

He needs to see the field because we need another weapon. We know what we have in Wright, we need to see what Treadwell has, even if it means rookie goofups along the way.

if the team falls out of contention....we'll seelots of treadwell IMO

i hated the pick and still do

[losperros]

Guys earn their time on the field by the way they practice, prepare, and peform, and Wright is not doing any of those well enough to break into a still substandard group of receivers. He's got nobody to blame but himself.

If you've been there watching the practices, then tell us what you're seeing and not seeing from Wright. Otherwise, I question whether you really know what Wright is doing at practice. Given what he's done on the field in the past, Wright has capable hands and has made some big plays.

I also don't agree about the Vikings having a substandard group of receivers. I don't think the skill player talent on the team is bad. Could it be better? Sure. In fact, it could probably be better right now with a few changes.

[VikingLord]

And why do you think he wasn't open to begin with? Hmmm. Lack of speed, maybe?

You can't imagine how anyone else on the Vikings could possibly outrun the defender? Your imagination skills are lacking!

I didn't say. What I tried to say was speed isn't the only factor, or in most cases I've seen, even a primary factor, in a WR's ability to get open deep. And I think I substantiated that belief with two examples of players who consistently got open deep (even wide open deep) and yet who didn't have great straight-line speed.

What receivers do the Vikings have that you think can simply beat a CB on a straight run down the field and open up the kind of separation that Treadwell couldn't get on that play? For that matter, what receivers are there in the league that could consistently do that?

Speed is way overrated for deep routes.