Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgiving

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9772
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1857

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Maelstrom88 wrote:What's Bradford's YPA since Shurmur took over this year? Check out this pff write up on how Sammy did yesterday.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-mi ... for-lions/

3.5 yard depth of target average is really good isn't it? Is that fact enough for you? It's OK you will eventually admit he sucks it might take you a year or two. I've watched every one of his NFL games. I know better.
You've watched every one of his NFL games?

Why?
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.
User avatar
Maelstrom88
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1827
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:38 am
x 399

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by Maelstrom88 »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: You've watched every one of his NFL games?

Why?
Glutton for punishment. I'm from Missouri and was a Rams fan until they moved. When they moved I bought NFL game pass and switched around between a few teams before picking the Vikings. When they traded for Sam I went back and watched all of the condensed versions of his Eagles starts last year.
mael·strom

a powerful whirlpool in the sea or a river.

a situation or state of confused movement or violent turmoil.
User avatar
Texas Vike
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4672
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:52 am
x 405

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by Texas Vike »

Mothman wrote:
I posted that one the previous page. :) It's definitely a good read and that quote shows why being overly conservative can be detrimental just like being recklessly aggressive. Being too conservative in the passing game is a bit like driving 20 miles under the speed limit in the passing lane.

Left lane sitters! They drive me nuts when I'm making time on a road trip. :lol: Pretty solid metaphor.

I figured I'd missed something--I read some of the doom and gloom, but fortunately I had a great dinner party with friends and family to keep me from wallowing in yesterday's disheartening loss. I think lots of folks sense that our season is likely over (and folks are in post-Turkey day stupor with free time to piss and moan) so there's an abundance of questioning whether Bradford trade was worth it, etc. etc.

In all honesty, I think it's remarkable that we're not getting blown out with the OL we are fielding. It's absurd how many guys we've lost this season. I have read your points about the 3 year tendencies on O under Zim, and you're right... but even so, it's really hard to arrive at any conclusions regarding this year due to the excessive number of injuries to the line (in particular, losing teddy and AD didn't help either).

Hope you had a Happy Thanksgiving, Jim!
User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38292
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 409

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by Mothman »

Texas Vike wrote:Left lane sitters! They drive me nuts when I'm making time on a road trip. :lol: Pretty solid metaphor.
Thanks. I felt good about that one. :)
I figured I'd missed something--I read some of the doom and gloom, but fortunately I had a great dinner party with friends and family to keep me from wallowing in yesterday's disheartening loss. I think lots of folks sense that our season is likely over (and folks are in post-Turkey day stupor with free time to piss and moan) so there's an abundance of questioning whether Bradford trade was worth it, etc. etc.

In all honesty, I think it's remarkable that we're not getting blown out with the OL we are fielding. It's absurd how many guys we've lost this season. I have read your points about the 3 year tendencies on O under Zim, and you're right... but even so, it's really hard to arrive at any conclusions regarding this year due to the excessive number of injuries to the line (in particular, losing teddy and AD didn't help either).
The way I look at it is those injuries to the line didn't all occur in week 1 or week 2 so we have some idea of how the offense looked when healthy (minus Bridgewater, of course). It's been a gradual decimation of the line but the offense has struggled most of the season. It's remarkable that they aren't getting blown out with the OL they're currently fielding but I think that says something about the OL they put on the field in the first place, before the linemen started going down.
Hope you had a Happy Thanksgiving, Jim!
I did, thanks. I hope you did too!
PsyDanny
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1618
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:24 am
Location: south minneapolis
x 20

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by PsyDanny »

RFIP wrote:
I'm really amazed at the lack of football knowledge on this board overall.

Your the type fan that…

It's BECAUSE you know ZERO about pro football.
Any chance you could stop with these kind of condescending comments?

I am fine with your arguments - making some points I tend to agree with. So it is not about content, it is about your approach.

This kind of thing is likely to attract warnings from moderators, with threats of being banned. Otherwise, people who have been on this board are likely to "Foe" you, more or less eliminating you from much of the conversation.

The fact are, this board goes back to Usenet Newsgroups days (including people like me) and a lot of people that know a heck of a lot about football (not so much me). But the thing that makes it work is that the ethic is plenty of room for disagreement without being jerks. It does happen - people being people. But usually ends up with warning and people that persist do not stay here long.

So I am asking - lighten up on the condescension but, otherwise, keep your thoughts coming.

Doing so is likely to keep you :welcome
"My anterior orifice is forever causing me extreme difficulty;
therefore, I shall endeavor to acquire some self-control."
PacificNorseWest
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2936
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:10 am
Location: Seattle, Wa
x 150

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by PacificNorseWest »

Not sure if this has been addressed in other threads, but did Harrison Smith look a few steps slower this game than he has the whole season? And what was up with the baggy sweats under his pads? His he trying to hid some elbow braces or something? He usually goes bareskin.
Nunin
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:40 am

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by Nunin »

smith got dinged up sunday night. ankle injury. maybe he's still feelin it?
PacificNorseWest
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2936
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:10 am
Location: Seattle, Wa
x 150

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by PacificNorseWest »

Nunin wrote:smith got dinged up sunday night. ankle injury. maybe he's still feelin it?

That's what was reported, but you never know the severity. It was clear, however, that he was much slower than usual yesterday. I noticed a few replays where he wasn't jumping in on to help gang tackle or be the second man of support that he usually would be.
User avatar
IIsweet
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 916
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:02 pm
x 167

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by IIsweet »

Having read all of your thoughts, there is much over reaction and undue hatred being thrown around.
I have always been overly critical of Spielman and if I am placing blame anywhere, it's him.
Bradford didn't draft or sign these OL and continue to pay for subpar performances.
Zimmer may have selected Norv, Shurmur, and the coaching staff, but the personnel is not entirely on him.

Bradford has the natural tools and when given some time, has the ability to make every throw. Biggest knock on him is just how quickly he checks down and his lack of mobility.

If I am Zygi..... I look at my roster and ask if it's a SB contending roster. IMO, not even close. Defensively, I think that we are good enough to win a SB, realistically another year though and they are special. I hope that we finally add a big fat strong DT. Joseph is a great talent, but remember the Williams wall? I would look for a big fella like fat Pat was.

Offensively though I think we suck. I think that we have a lot of really good pieces but their talents are not being utilized to the fullest. Problem starts and ends with the OL. Very little can be accomplished if we cannot either open up running lanes or pass block. You have to be able to do one or the other to win. Right now, they cannot do neither. The QB cannot feel comfortable allowing for the WR routes to develop. The RB have nowhere to run, the OC has no idea how to move the ball because these guys continue to get hurt and now our line looks like Legos...

So, again, the blame falls on the OL, but I think it's a bigger problem. I think the problem is Spielman. He obviously believes that athletes and play makers win games, but he does not value building the OL. He has missed often with his selection of OL in the draft and not even that good with FA. Until he believes that you win the LOS and you win the game.... We will continue to be disappointed as fans.
On a side note, ever thought that we're the team that always drafts the guy that falls ???? Floyd, Patterson, Bridgewater, Treadwell, Alexander, Clemmings.
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9772
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1857

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Texas Vike wrote:
Left lane sitters! They drive me nuts when I'm making time on a road trip. :lol: Pretty solid metaphor.
It's a simile, not a metaphor.

Don't you just hate grammar police? :whistle:
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9772
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1857

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

IIsweet wrote:Having read all of your thoughts, there is much over reaction and undue hatred being thrown around.
I have always been overly critical of Spielman and if I am placing blame anywhere, it's him.
Bradford didn't draft or sign these OL and continue to pay for subpar performances.
Zimmer may have selected Norv, Shurmur, and the coaching staff, but the personnel is not entirely on him.

Bradford has the natural tools and when given some time, has the ability to make every throw. Biggest knock on him is just how quickly he checks down and his lack of mobility.

If I am Zygi..... I look at my roster and ask if it's a SB contending roster. IMO, not even close. Defensively, I think that we are good enough to win a SB, realistically another year though and they are special. I hope that we finally add a big fat strong DT. Joseph is a great talent, but remember the Williams wall? I would look for a big fella like fat Pat was.

Offensively though I think we suck. I think that we have a lot of really good pieces but their talents are not being utilized to the fullest. Problem starts and ends with the OL. Very little can be accomplished if we cannot either open up running lanes or pass block. You have to be able to do one or the other to win. Right now, they cannot do neither. The QB cannot feel comfortable allowing for the WR routes to develop. The RB have nowhere to run, the OC has no idea how to move the ball because these guys continue to get hurt and now our line looks like Legos...

So, again, the blame falls on the OL, but I think it's a bigger problem. I think the problem is Spielman. He obviously believes that athletes and play makers win games, but he does not value building the OL. He has missed often with his selection of OL in the draft and not even that good with FA. Until he believes that you win the LOS and you win the game.... We will continue to be disappointed as fans.
On a side note, ever thought that we're the team that always drafts the guy that falls ???? Floyd, Patterson, Bridgewater, Treadwell, Alexander, Clemmings.
I'm going to challenge you (and others) on this one.

Phil Loadholt -- not an All-Pro, but a solid tackle, especially in the running game. Spielman didn't cause his achilles to tear.
Matt Kalil -- considered to be easily the best O-lineman coming out of college when he was drafted, and made the Pro Bowl as a rookie. Spielman didn't cause him to suddenly go into suck mode, or to be constantly hurt, or to go on IR. And how many of us would KILL to have him at LT right now?
John Sullivan -- on the cusp of being an All-Pro until he hurt his back. Spielman didn't cause his back to go out, nor did he force Sullivan to lift weights before his back was ready.
Brandon Fusco -- among the top-rated guards on PFF a couple of years ago. Now he gets knocked on his a$$ every other play. Why has he descended into suckitude? I'm sure Spielman is as perplexed as anyone.
Joe Berger -- good enough to replace Sullivan, but now he's hurt.
Alex Boone -- after a slow start, he's been solid, but even he has missed time due to injury.
Andre Smith -- we can argue whether he was any good, but the fact remains that he was a high draft choice and gave us at least a chance of being average at RT -- until he got hurt and went on IR.
Mike Harris -- Widely regarded as one of our top O-linemen last year. Where is he now? He's like Jimmy Hoffa -- has disappeared without a trace. Rick's fault?

Has O-line been a priority in the early draft rounds for Spielman. No. But not every team builds a line that way. The Vikings have gone the "draft low and develop" route. As I've said many times, it may not be the way we think he ought to build an O-line, but it's what he's chosen to do, and there's precedent for it. He's far from the only GM to go this route. And we can sit here and go "Dallas Cowboys" all we want, but the Cowboys haven't won squat for years, and until they do, there's no reason to make their "draft the entire line in the first round" the model. Their defense is not terribly good, and I believe they will get exposed in the playoffs.

Here's the other truth ... we are 6-5, having played with a line that has had 10 or 11 different combinations due to injury. I honestly believe that if our opening day line had been able to stay together, we might very well be 8-3 or better right now. Continuity is everything with an O-line, and we've had none. I believe there has only been one instance this entire season where the same 5 guys were together for 2 games in a row -- we won the second of those two games against the Cardinals.

We all like to say, "Can't make injuries an excuse." That's a nice buzz phrase, but the truth is that talent wins in this league, and virtually every O-lineman close to having real talent is on the shelf. When you're trotting out Willie Beavers at RT and T.J. Clemmings at LT, it's a miracle this team even had a chance to win on the road.

Obviously something's got to be done for next season. But I doubt you'll ever see another year like this for injuries to one unit of a Vikings football team. It's been brutal.
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.
Purple Reign
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1292
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:17 pm
Location: St. Paul, MN
x 6

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by Purple Reign »

Iron Lion wrote: While I agree with what you're saying, Bradford did lead a game-winning touchdown drive against the Lions in week 9.
Did I miss something? I thought Detroit won that game. :lol:
Nunin
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:40 am

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by Nunin »

echoing Kapp:

it's been a rough season for a talented team.
a perfect storm, if you will.
nothing to be gained by assigning blame.
everyone is frustrated~
RFIP
Veteran
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:02 pm

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by RFIP »

Purple Reign wrote: Did I miss something? I thought Detroit won that game. :lol:
You are correct sir. He led them to the go-ahead score only to watch it disappear. In fact he did that in both Lions games, leading 4th Q scoring drives that the defense coughed up, and in the skins game he led them back from 10-0 down to a 20-14 lead which didn't hold up either. That's 3 of the five losses right there.
randomghost11
Rookie
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:48 am

Re: Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Thanksgivi

Post by randomghost11 »

Maybe if the offense could put up more than 16 points in either game vs the Lions than the defense wouldn't be able to cough it up
Post Reply