Lack of big plays.

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Nunin
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by Nunin » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:45 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: He's a 36 year old pocket QB!!! You're going to sit there and tell me he is mobile? At least sam is younger. Hill is about to croak.
no way dude....did you read my post?

i in no way saud that hill is 'mobile' i said that sam is not way more mobile than him. they both epitomize immobile QBs IMO. and on top of that hill has a better pocket presence.

but i'm not advocating for hill here....i just took umbrage to that particular comment.

:popcorn:
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:51 am

Nunin wrote: no way dude....did you read my post?

i in no way saud that hill is 'mobile' i said that sam is not way more mobile than him. they both epitomize immobile QBs IMO. and on top of that hill has a better pocket presence.

but i'm not advocating for hill here....i just took umbrage to that particular comment.

:popcorn:
All I know is, Bradford is far and away the better option. By a long shot. So I have no clue why Hill is even being brought up.
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Nunin
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by Nunin » Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:04 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:

I agree he is the better option....but that conclusion can be easily reached without suggesting something that doesn't show up on film.
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by jackal » Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:52 pm

its because our OL can't hold up a few seconds to have deep plays
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by S197 » Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:35 pm

Nunin wrote:the line is bad lol

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easton should start at center the rest of the way and berger, if he's healthy, should take over for fusco IMO
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go only knows what they'll do at tackle if sirle(sp) can't go.....but maybe put boone @LT.....keep fusco at RG and put berger at LG
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they gotta try something other than clemmings and beavers lol omg
I mentioned this last week but I think kicking Boone out to LT and Berger to G might be an option if Sirles can play. I think he can, twitter was saying he had his helmet on after the injury so I dont think it's too serious. Clemmings really shouldn't be considered right now. It's bad enough that he can't block anyone but he also has a ton of drive killing penalties. If he was playing smart football but was just getting beat then that's one thing but when you're chop blocking guys when the play is being run to the opposite sideline, you gots to go!
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by Nunin » Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:48 pm

S197 wrote: I mentioned this last week but I think kicking Boone out to LT and Berger to G might be an option if Sirles can play. I think he can, twitter was saying he had his helmet on after the injury so I dont think it's too serious. Clemmings really shouldn't be considered right now. It's bad enough that he can't block anyone but he also has a ton of drive killing penalties. If he was playing smart football but was just getting beat then that's one thing but when you're chop blocking guys when the play is being run to the opposite sideline, you gots to go!
i can't imagine boone being as bad at tackle as clemmings, he couldn't be worse. hopefully berger is ok.
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by Nunin » Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:49 pm

S197 wrote: I mentioned this last week but I think kicking Boone out to LT and Berger to G might be an option if Sirles can play. I think he can, twitter was saying he had his helmet on after the injury so I dont think it's too serious. Clemmings really shouldn't be considered right now. It's bad enough that he can't block anyone but he also has a ton of drive killing penalties. If he was playing smart football but was just getting beat then that's one thing but when you're chop blocking guys when the play is being run to the opposite sideline, you gots to go!
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by PacificNorseWest » Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:23 pm

In order to go down the field, the line needs to be able to sustain a block for more than 3.6 seconds, which hasn't been achieved much this season. If you're asking for blind hail mary passes in the general direction of a receiver, then this offense is still better off dinking and dunking...Be realistic here...
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:52 pm

PacificNorseWest wrote:In order to go down the field, the line needs to be able to sustain a block for more than 3.6 seconds, which hasn't been achieved much this season. If you're asking for blind hail mary passes in the general direction of a receiver, then this offense is still better off dinking and dunking...Be realistic here...
Exactly. Many like to just spit things out and not actually think about it. Or think magically that we had all these extra picks we could've used to build an OL and could've still sustained an elite d at the same time.

Everyone has ideas, but I've yet to hear one solution. Or past solution. Pretty easy to sit behind a computer screen and criticize an NFL personnel man acting like you have all the answers. When in reality, they don't. I've laid every draft for the past 3 years out. Nobody acknowledges it, and everyone continues to say, "Spielman doesn't know how to build an OL". No different than if he put all his eggs in the OL basket and passed on guys like Barr, Rhodes, Kendricks, Hunter, Waynes,etc.

Guess what everyone would be saying....."wow look at the lack of depth at LB or CB or DE.. Our defense is terrible. Spielman doesn't have a clue how to build a defense", etc etc. It gets old. I feel like some think we magically had 3 first round picks that Spielman decided not to use on OL. We can't have the best of both worlds here people. Especially when you were rebuilding from the ground up back in 2012.

I'm not sitting here saying the guy didn't make some mistakes along the line. But I'm not going to sit here and say the guy took a bad approach. How can you when we have the defense we do and got raped by injuries on the offensive side. No less he hired a great coach. And we've gotten better every year since Zim has been here. However when the injuries hit your best players, teams are going to struggle. It's inevitable. Look at GB. They were always looks at as "the team that had it all together and had great management and FO". Now look at them!!! They are worse than us.

90% of the time, the teams that make the super bowl boil down to who avoided the major injuries. Is anyone going to sit here and say if Cam Newton went down they would've still went to the SB last year? I sure hope not. Look at Dallas. Healthy as could be on the offensive side. Even defense for the most part. Compare GB to Dallas right now. Not much difference in talent but one is healthy and one isn't. Same with us
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:09 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Exactly. Many like to just spit things out and not actually think about it. Or think magically that we had all these extra picks we could've used to build an OL and could've still sustained an elite d at the same time.

Everyone has ideas, but I've yet to hear one solution. Or past solution. Pretty easy to sit behind a computer screen and criticize an NFL personnel man acting like you have all the answers. When in reality, they don't. I've laid every draft for the past 3 years out. Nobody acknowledges it, and everyone continues to say, "Spielman doesn't know how to build an OL". No different than if he put all his eggs in the OL basket and passed on guys like Barr, Rhodes, Kendricks, Hunter, Waynes,etc.

Guess what everyone would be saying....."wow look at the lack of depth at LB or CB or DE.. Our defense is terrible. Spielman doesn't have a clue how to build a defense", etc etc. It gets old. I feel like some think we magically had 3 first round picks that Spielman decided not to use on OL. We can't have the best of both worlds here people. Especially when you were rebuilding from the ground up back in 2012.

I'm not sitting here saying the guy didn't make some mistakes along the line. But I'm not going to sit here and say the guy took a bad approach. How can you when we have the defense we do and got raped by injuries on the offensive side. No less he hired a great coach. And we've gotten better every year since Zim has been here. However when the injuries hit your best players, teams are going to struggle. It's inevitable. Look at GB. They were always looks at as "the team that had it all together and had great management and FO". Now look at them!!! They are worse than us.

90% of the time, the teams that make the super bowl boil down to who avoided the major injuries. Is anyone going to sit here and say if Cam Newton went down they would've still went to the SB last year? I sure hope not. Look at Dallas. Healthy as could be on the offensive side. Even defense for the most part. Compare GB to Dallas right now. Not much difference in talent but one is healthy and one isn't. Same with us
And to your point ...

Dallas seems to be everybody's poster child for "how to build an O-line." But there's a cost to drafting that many linemen that high, and for them, it comes on the defensive side of the ball. Dallas' defense is not particularly good, and in the playoffs, they're likely to get exposed. That means they can't afford for Dak Prescott to make any mistakes with that defense. A good team like Seattle will bury them if they're not perfect on offense. Washington put up close to 500 yards of offense against them on Thanksgiving. Do that same thing in the playoffs, and they'll lose.

As I said in another thread, before we make Dallas the model for how to build a roster, how about we see them win a playoff game? They haven't done much of that since Jimmy Johnson was roaming the sidelines.
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by Purple Reign » Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:37 pm

PacificNorseWest wrote:In order to go down the field, the line needs to be able to sustain a block for more than 3.6 seconds, which hasn't been achieved much this season. If you're asking for blind hail mary passes in the general direction of a receiver, then this offense is still better off dinking and dunking...Be realistic here...
The point is you have to keep the defense honest. If you never throw a deep ball, then they aren't going to worry about a deep pass and sit on the short throws. You don't even have to complete the pass, just the fact you attempt a couple keeps them somewhat honest. Just like if you don't have a running game you still have to run it a few times.
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by Nunin » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:10 am

yeah, i agree you gotta take your shots. this is a different issue than the teambuilding issue.
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they are really hurting at rb when you factor in the line instability. it really reduces everything when you can't be any kind of threat running the ball.
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mckinnon, for all his strength and athleticism, is just easy to bring down most of the time, and asiata is good at what he does but it's not enough with this line the way it is.
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the only bona fide threats on offense are at wr.
diggs being the best IMO, is banged up too.
just a tough situation all around.
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still have a punchers chance....we'll see if the weaker links can find a way to step up.
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they don't appear to be giving up in any sense and they are to the point where they have little to lose...so take some shots i say.
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:12 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: And to your point ...

Dallas seems to be everybody's poster child for "how to build an O-line." But there's a cost to drafting that many linemen that high, and for them, it comes on the defensive side of the ball. Dallas' defense is not particularly good, and in the playoffs, they're likely to get exposed. That means they can't afford for Dak Prescott to make any mistakes with that defense. A good team like Seattle will bury them if they're not perfect on offense. Washington put up close to 500 yards of offense against them on Thanksgiving. Do that same thing in the playoffs, and they'll lose.

As I said in another thread, before we make Dallas the model for how to build a roster, how about we see them win a playoff game? They haven't done much of that since Jimmy Johnson was roaming the sidelines.
Great point and I agree. I saw an article the other day that Dallas has also had one of the easiest schedules in the league this year. I wouldn't be surprised at all if our defense gives them fits. It all depends on the offense of course for us.

Like I said above, by no means am I going to sit here and say Spielman hasn't made his mistakes. I'm clearly a big supporter of him but to build an elite defense and have a strong offense or just offensive line for that matter, isn't as easy as some on here feel like it may be. Look at Seattle as well. Elite defense but also an extremely poor OL. Luckily they have one of the best scrambling QBs of his time. You put Manning or any kind of true immobile pocket passer back there in a Seattle uniform and you can declare him dead.
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by Mothman » Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:38 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: Exactly. Many like to just spit things out and not actually think about it. Or think magically that we had all these extra picks we could've used to build an OL and could've still sustained an elite d at the same time.

Everyone has ideas, but I've yet to hear one solution. Or past solution. Pretty easy to sit behind a computer screen and criticize an NFL personnel man acting like you have all the answers. When in reality, they don't. I've laid every draft for the past 3 years out. Nobody acknowledges it, and everyone continues to say, "Spielman doesn't know how to build an OL". No different than if he put all his eggs in the OL basket and passed on guys like Barr, Rhodes, Kendricks, Hunter, Waynes,etc.

Guess what everyone would be saying....."wow look at the lack of depth at LB or CB or DE.. Our defense is terrible. Spielman doesn't have a clue how to build a defense", etc etc. It gets old. I feel like some think we magically had 3 first round picks that Spielman decided not to use on OL. We can't have the best of both worlds here people. Especially when you were rebuilding from the ground up back in 2012.

I'm not sitting here saying the guy didn't make some mistakes along the line. But I'm not going to sit here and say the guy took a bad approach. How can you when we have the defense we do and got raped by injuries on the offensive side. No less he hired a great coach.
Did he? I'd say the jury is still out on that point. Zimmer was "crowned" awfully fast but it still looks to me like the Vikes just hired a terrific defensive coordinator and made him head coach/defensive coordinator.
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Re: Lack of big plays.

Post by Mothman » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:01 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:Like I said above, by no means am I going to sit here and say Spielman hasn't made his mistakes. I'm clearly a big supporter of him but to build an elite defense and have a strong offense or just offensive line for that matter, isn't as easy as some on here feel like it may be. Look at Seattle as well. Elite defense but also an extremely poor OL.
Yes, after winning a Super Bowl and going to back-to-back Super Bowls. They had cap issues, made tough choices and it's not working out for them up front but this season isn't in a bubble.

By all means, take a closer look at Seattle but look deeper than the present. They're a team that hired a new head coach and GM in 2010. They built an elite defense, built a strong, effective o-line that could move people and create holes for their power running back, found and developed a franchise QB and won a Super Bowl within 4 years. They nearly won 2 in a row.

It's not impossible. Nobody thinks it's easy. Nobody thinks there are a bunch of magical extra draft picks out there that make it easy. It's about decision-making: get the right coach, draft the right QB, make the right choices and yes, have a bit of luck. Above all, hire the right GM.

Spielman's been in MN for a decade and the Vikes have only tasted post-season success once yet people defend him as if he's been a builder of champions. :confused:
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