Norv Turner Resigns as OC

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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

Post by Mothman »

Purple Martin wrote:I don't think Bridgewater passes the test, he just had a couple good highlights in preseason play.


I agree.
I don't see that much "improvement" in McKinnon or Diggs. Diggs was excellent from the start. McKinnon was also pretty good out of the gate, and I haven't seen anything I'd call significant improvement in his play that you wouldn't expect just from getting experience.
My point was that getting rookies ready to play well from the start involves preparation, coaching. When a rookie like McKinnon comes into a new system, quite different from what he played in college, and adapts to it well, there's a good chance coaching helped that happen.

In most cases, the kind of improvement you're talking about probably has more to do with the position coaches than the OC anyway.
Even if I accepted all of these nominees as "improved", my real point was the comparitive dearth of players who seem well-coached compared with the defense. Zimmer came in and turned the whole D around. So did Norv, but in the opposite direction. The evidence for the offense being coached upward is sparse.
I see your point but the measuring stick seems pretty subjective. Based on the criteria you've put forward, I don't think there are many players on defense we can point to that have significantly improved due to coaching either. It's easy to dismiss any improvement the same way. For example, most of them were either good before they got into this defense (Griffin, Joseph, Munnerlyn, Newman, etc.), played well from the start (Barr, Kendricks, etc.) or we can argue they've shown the kind of improvement you'd expect just from getting experience (Rhodes, Waynes, Sendejo). Personally, I think some of them actually have improved due to good coaching but I'm playing devil's advocate to reinforce my point about subjectivity.

I'm more inclined to look at the overall performance of the unit and the talent level of the players than how much individual improvement we've seen because I think the latter depends heavily on the individuals themselves and, as I mentioned earlier, on the position coaches.

Again, I'm not a fan of what Norv did in Minnesota. I think your point that there's sparse evidence for the offense being coached upward is right on target. I just think it has as much (if not more) to do with talent and management as it does with Turner's coaching. I don't think he made the most of the hand he was dealt so another coordinator might be able to get more out of the offense but the whole thing has been a fiasco. I see it as an indictment of Zimmer and Spielman at least as much as an indictment of Turner. The former are supposed to have a vision for the team. If you hire Norv Turner, who's been in the league running his system for a long time, you're hiring him to run that system. Consequently, it's necessary to make personnel decisions that will enable the offense to excel with that approach. Instead, they've done the opposite of what they've done with the defense.
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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

Post by mansquatch »

On the Patriots, two things:

1.) Brady is a HOF QB and probably the greatest pure competitor to play the position, that certainly has helped them.

2.) More importantly though is how they manage their players:

The difference between a good NFL player and a great one is small. A lot of it is attitude. Belicik has figured out how to take guys that the rest of the league considers good to average and make them good to great. He finds a way to get the extra gear out of them.

Talent still wins, but guys like Randy Moss who are so talented they can't help but succeed are very rare. It is the combination of mental strength and athletic ability that makes up most championship athletes. Look at the guy in item #1 above. He doesn't have the best physical skill set, he just has the most competitive brain.

I think Zimmer is heading in this direction, he certainly is getting a lot out of his defensive players. On offense he needs to find his compliment or start doing it himself. Somehow Belicik is able to do it on both sides of the ball. Zimmer needs to find a way to do that as well.
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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

Post by Texas Vike »

Mothman wrote:
Again, I'm not a fan of what Norv did in Minnesota. I think your point that there's sparse evidence for the offense being coached upward is right on target. I just think it has as much (if not more) to do with talent and management as it does with Turner's coaching. I don't think he made the most of the hand he was dealt so another coordinator might be able to get more out of the offense but the whole thing has been a fiasco. I see it as an indictment of Zimmer and Spielman at least as much as an indictment of Turner. The former are supposed to have a vision for the team. If you hire Norv Turner, who's been in the league running his system for a long time, you're hiring him to run that system. Consequently, it's necessary to make personnel decisions that will enable the offense to excel with that approach. Instead, they've done the opposite of what they've done with the defense.
The best part of this mid-season change is that we'll have evidence (very soon) that can help substantiate our opinions about Norv. If Shurmur can come in and make improvements to this poorly performing offense with the same dearth of talent on the OL and key players that are out due to injury it will support what some folks have argued here: that Norv was terrible at adjusting to the players he has. I personally am really looking forward to seeing how Shurmur makes use of some untapped talent on our offensive roster--especially Patterson, Treadwell (maybe?) and even Diggs (underexploited under Norv, IMO). I think even Jet will be used in a more intelligent manner under Shurmur. We are about to find out if our speculations have any merit to them at all.

I wonder if Norv will be sipping a cocktail from his armchair hoping for an utter failure on offense to feel vindicated? Must be an odd feeling for him.
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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

Post by IrishViking »

Texas Vike wrote: The best part of this mid-season change is that we'll have evidence (very soon) that can help substantiate our opinions about Norv. If Shurmur can come in and make improvements to this poorly performing offense with the same dearth of talent on the OL and key players that are out due to injury it will support what some folks have argued here: that Norv was terrible at adjusting to the players he has. I personally am really looking forward to seeing how Shurmur makes use of some untapped talent on our offensive roster--especially Patterson, Treadwell (maybe?) and even Diggs (underexploited under Norv, IMO). I think even Jet will be used in a more intelligent manner under Shurmur. We are about to find out if our speculations have any merit to them at all.

I wonder if Norv will be sipping a cocktail from his armchair hoping for an utter failure on offense to feel vindicated? Must be an odd feeling for him.
He might just be tired of the Rat race. From what I have heard this could easily be a resignation based on him not having the drive anymore and realizing it and stepping back for the good of the team.
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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

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Texas Vike wrote:The best part of this mid-season change is that we'll have evidence (very soon) that can help substantiate our opinions about Norv. If Shurmur can come in and make improvements to this poorly performing offense with the same dearth of talent on the OL and key players that are out due to injury it will support what some folks have argued here: that Norv was terrible at adjusting to the players he has.
It will but I think it's going to take more than a few games to make that determination. It would be wonderful if fixing the offense turned out to be as simple as changing OCs mid-season.
I personally am really looking forward to seeing how Shurmur makes use of some untapped talent on our offensive roster--especially Patterson, Treadwell (maybe?) and even Diggs (underexploited under Norv, IMO). I think even Jet will be used in a more intelligent manner under Shurmur. We are about to find out if our speculations have any merit to them at all.
Indeed, we will. I certainly hope we see more use of Patterson in particular and I really want to see a less predictable offense. That said, other than when Shurmur was running Kelly's offense in Philadelphia, his track record as an OC and HC isn't that impressive. In addition to learning about Turner and what the offense is capable of under a different coordinator, we're going to learn more about Shurmur outside of Kelly's system. it should be interesting!

I'm not sure how on earth Shurmur is going to get around the weaknesses of the OL week after week but if he can do it, or if the line can simply play better, things could get really interesting.
I wonder if Norv will be sipping a cocktail from his armchair hoping for an utter failure on offense to feel vindicated? Must be an odd feeling for him.
He doesn't strike me as that kind of guy.

What I'd like to know is the nature of the philosophical disagreement he and Zimmer had about how to fix the offense. Say what you will about Turner, he knows a little something about offense so I can't help wondering what their differences were. Did Turner have a good idea of how to fix the offense and was Zimmer interested in something else or vice versa?
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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

Post by mansquatch »

A question I have: Why do you think we'll suddenly see more of CP84 or Treadwell? Unless I missed something there is nothing that points to the conservatism in starting rookies as being a product of Norv. We've seen the same approach with Waynes on defense.
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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

Post by Texas Vike »

mansquatch wrote:A question I have: Why do you think we'll suddenly see more of CP84 or Treadwell? Unless I missed something there is nothing that points to the conservatism in starting rookies as being a product of Norv. We've seen the same approach with Waynes on defense.

Yes, I think Zimmer is conservative too, but in one of Zimmer's recent pressers he literally said that he gave Norv "Free will" to do as he deemed appropriate on offense. I don't know WHY Norv was so hesitant to use CP84, but I know now that it was HIS choice.
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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

Post by losperros »

Texas Vike wrote:
Yes, I think Zimmer is conservative too, but in one of Zimmer's recent pressers he literally said that he gave Norv "Free will" to do as he deemed appropriate on offense. I don't know WHY Norv was so hesitant to use CP84, but I know now that it was HIS choice.
In that case, I think Norv was flat out wrong. Patterson should and could have contributed on offense last season, and he could have done more this season as well. I'm hoping Shurmur will discover CP84 is on the team and has explosive skills, and Shurmur will utilize him appropriately.

As for the conservatism of not starting rookies, I think Mansquatch is onto something. That approach happens on both offense and defense. So I think it might be Zimmer's philosophical method, which means it still may be standard operating procedure.
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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

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mansquatch wrote:A question I have: Why do you think we'll suddenly see more of CP84 or Treadwell? Unless I missed something there is nothing that points to the conservatism in starting rookies as being a product of Norv. We've seen the same approach with Waynes on defense.
It's norv, why people continue to ask why is remarkable.

Why do I think we'll see more? Because he didn't like or confused Patterson and didn't play him for whatever reason. And Treadwell? I think he pissed off turner with his raiders hat nonsense and turner benched him. Dude was Ole Miss #1 and had no question marks about his routes or catching ability. He wasn't raw, he was legit. ALL OF A SUDDEN he has issues running routes. Cmon now. Lets be real here. He plays his favorites. He did it in san diego, he did it on Oakland, he did it in Cleveland, and he sure as hell did it in Minnesota. Get in his doghouse, don't see the field. Doesn't matter what it's for. So glad that dude is gone
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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

Post by Boon »

You can't compare Waynes and Treadwell. Waynes actually saw the field as a rookie and we all know why he wasn't seeing the field more, because he was grabby mcgrabberson. We all saw it in the preseason. Know what I saw from Treadwell in the preseason? A red zone bully who has a Dez Bryant like catch radius, but yet he hasn't seen the field. This is not a conspiracy, it couldn't be any more obvious that Turner wasn't starting Treadwell JUST BECAUSE.
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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

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I'm sorry but you guys are not providing evidence, you are providing opinion. Waynes was kept on a very tight leash last year only seeing the field when injuries required it and on Special Teams. There are similiarities to how Treadwell is being treated. Maybe they are coincidental, maybe not, but that is my question. There are folks on here who have CONCLUDED that was because of Norv. My question is why have you concluded that? What is your evidence?

How do you conclude it was all Norv when Waynes has been treated similarly and he plays on defense?

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just not finding the current reasoning very persuasive.

I think we'll see different play calling with Shurmur, but I'm not convinced the handling of Rookies will change at all.
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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

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losperros wrote:In that case, I think Norv was flat out wrong. Patterson should and could have contributed on offense last season, and he could have done more this season as well. I'm hoping Shurmur will discover CP84 is on the team and has explosive skills, and Shurmur will utilize him appropriately.

As for the conservatism of not starting rookies, I think Mansquatch is onto something. That approach happens on both offense and defense. So I think it might be Zimmer's philosophical method, which means it still may be standard operating procedure.
They've started some rookies so it seems to be a choice they make on a case by case basis.
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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

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"So I think it might be Zimmer's philosophical method."


There ya go, Jim. Maybe that's part of the philosophical difference between Zimmer and Norv that led him to resign. Maybe not.
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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

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PacificNorseWest wrote:"So I think it might be Zimmer's philosophical method."


There ya go, Jim. Maybe that's part of the philosophical difference between Zimmer and Norv that led him to resign. Maybe not.

Wait... what are you quoting? I think I missed something.
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Re: Norv Turner Resigns as OC

Post by Texas Vike »

mansquatch wrote:I'm sorry but you guys are not providing evidence, you are providing opinion.

Speaking for only myself, I referred to evidence from Zimmer's presser that revealed an important fact. Here's what I posted elsewhere:
My suspicion proved accurate. In his post-Norv resignation presser Zimmer says: "Since Norv has been here I've given him almost 100% free will on everything they've done offensively."

http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/vide ... 802bc89611

(@ about 2:50 mark)
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