It's panic time

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chicagopurple
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Re: It's panic time

Post by chicagopurple » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:07 am

anyone who thinks we just need 2 guys on the OL then we are all set is delusional.
No One on the OL is good enough.

Fusco....career journeyman only fit to come in for injured true starters
Kalil.....luckiest guy in the world got his millions and never contributed other then chronic penalties in critical plays.
Clemmings.....draft choice waste that has perfect the art of regression, sliding backward ata consistent rate both on paper and on turf.

and a bunch of veteran pick ups who are milking the Vikes in their waning years when they ought to be retired.
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Pondering Her Percy
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Re: It's panic time

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:22 am

Mothman wrote:

Probably more than that. I don't know. I'm just saying, they should proceed with caution and be careful about giving up too much of their future in a desperate attempt to win this year.
Please, calm down a little, You're "shouting" in all caps in multiple threads.

I'm not saying a trade isn't worth considering, just that it needs to be carefully considered and there are consequences to giving up a second round pick or more for a 31 year old tackle who costs a lot more against the cap. As I said above, it might make sense... it depends on the trade.
Only if it's a wise move in both the short and long term. There's a case to be made either way. I've seen the consequences of this team giving up too many future picks in trade and the hindrance that can be in the future. I've also seen what happens when they go "all in" for one season without sufficient regard for future consequences.
The Bradford trade doesn't become a waste because the Bradford trade wasn't just for this year. If a 5-0 start gets wasted, that would be unfortunate.

If they trade for Staley or Thomas and adding a tackle doesn't turn out to be the secret ingredient that wins them the Super Bowl, isn't the season a "waste" by the standards you're applying above anyway?

Again, I'm not opposed to a trade but it's not a simple impulsive no-brainer. The present and future costs matter. The age and salary of the player acquired matters. The length of that player's remaining contract matters. It's not a decision to be made rashly.
I didn't know you could "shout" on a message board. I use all caps in plenty of my posts and have for quite some time now but that's besides the point. Bottom line is, I'm not laying down if I'm Zim and Spielman. You go out and you do something about it. Don't let a team with this much potential crap the bed
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Mothman
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Re: It's panic time

Post by Mothman » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:47 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:I didn't know you could "shout" on a message board. I use all caps in plenty of my posts and have for quite some time now but that's besides the point.


Generally speaking, using all caps on the internet is considered "shouting". It's not a big deal. If you want to keep doing it, that's fine. I just wanted you to be aware that's how it tends to be perceived.
Bottom line is, I'm not laying down if I'm Zim and Spielman. You go out and you do something about it. Don't let a team with this much potential crap the bed
I don't think they should lay down either. My point was just that they need to proceed wisely, considering all factors.
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Re: It's panic time

Post by TSonn » Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:52 am

Could have been the camera angle last night but it sure looked like Asiata missed some wide open running lanes and choose to run directly into his blockers instead. I think McKinnon would have had some decent gains last night and AD would have had a good game.
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Re: It's panic time

Post by Boon » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:06 am

I still can't get my head wrapped around how this OC is still employed. Fans can sit there from their couch, see a formation and practically call every play being ran. And the whole Treadwell situation is driving me nuts. And I don't want to hear any crap about the OL. They were doing ok the weeks before these last two minus run blocking. But Bradford wasn't getting assaulted as bad. Here's another eye test question, didn't it seem as if when the playbook was shortened to give sam time to learn it the offense was doing better? Like there was a small improv factor involved and it was confusing defenses? The more he's learning the playbook the worse everyone is playing. Ball was out quicker, line was blocking better, offense was a lot more efficient. More opportunistic, it seems odd. Spielman and wilf are probably going to have to step in and handle this before it gets too late. Because it seems Zim is way too loyal to his buddy to make a move. Lets shurmur handle the playcalling. Or even scott but ffs get this dude outta here. seriously.
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Re: It's panic time

Post by mondry » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:38 am

Mothman wrote:
If they trade for Staley or Thomas and adding a tackle doesn't turn out to be the secret ingredient that wins them the Super Bowl, isn't the season a "waste" by the standards you're applying above anyway?
This is the key point, we saw what kind of terrible shape the 2009/2010 all in idea left this team in for 2011 and beyond. It's very short sighted to think we have to do whatever it takes to salvage this year with no regard for the next couple years and what a waste those will be if a big trade doesn't work out.
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Re: It's panic time

Post by losperros » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:58 am

Purple Martin wrote:Our coaches can't do anything with anybody they've had for the last 3 years. Everything has changed at one time or another (or all at once) except two things: the top offensive coach and the results. When you change all the variables except one and get the same or worse result, you have isolated a key problem. Coaching. Norv Turner needs to go, and he needs to go now. We have nothing to lose because we can't get any worse.
Very well said. Seriously, folks, is there really any question about Turner not getting the job done three years later? Turner's time has passed by. It's not dishonorable for that to happen, as it is merely a symptom of being around for a long time in the NFL. It's happened to other coaches and coordinators, and now it's happened to Norv.

One of the most frustrating parts of the offense, aside from the remarkably leaky offensive line, has been the team's inability to utilize players according to their strengths. The offense has to toss Norv's system out the window. Sam Bradford has become uncomfortable, the WRs oftentimes run routes conflicting with a porous OL, some of the offensive weapons aren't getting proper playing time, and the running game is nonexistent. But given the overall skill player talent available, especially at WR, a decent coordinator with imagination should be able to get at least an average NFL performance from them.
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TSonn
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Re: It's panic time

Post by TSonn » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:35 am

mondry wrote: This is the key point, we saw what kind of terrible shape the 2009/2010 all in idea left this team in for 2011 and beyond. It's very short sighted to think we have to do whatever it takes to salvage this year with no regard for the next couple years and what a waste those will be if a big trade doesn't work out.
I don't really see it as mortgaging the future at all. Our last 2 first round draft picks and our second round pick this year are all still sitting on the bench. The future is already here and not playing yet. That's the beauty of taking BPA on draft night - it opens up the door for important trades to help the short-term. Besides, being in a dire straights situation has already gotten us the best QB we've had since Favre and, before him, Culpepper... it could also land us the best LT we've had since McKinnie.

Also - it's not like we'd be trading for guys who are going to be retiring in the next year or two. Bradford could legitimately be our QB for the next 10 years. Staley or Thomas still have another good 4-5 years at least as well.
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Norv Zimmer
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Re: It's panic time

Post by Norv Zimmer » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:36 am

Anyone notice how bad the screen plays beat us last night? Why dont the Vikings ever run screen passes they throw it to asiata in the flats every once in a while but it rarely seems like they have a designed screen play.

That screen last night where they faked a trap run play with a guard pulling was beautiful.... I would love to see plays like that.
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Re: It's panic time

Post by TSonn » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:37 am

Norv Zimmer wrote:Anyone notice how bad the screen plays beat us last night? Why dont the Vikings ever run screen passes they throw it to asiata in the flats every once in a while but it rarely seems like they have a designed screen play.

That screen last night where they faked a trap run play with a guard pulling was beautiful.... I would love to see plays like that.
We tried one last night and Bradford couldn't hold onto the ball long enough for the play to develop.
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Re: It's panic time

Post by Texas Vike » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:37 am

losperros wrote: Very well said. Seriously, folks, is there really any question about Turner not getting the job done three years later? Turner's time has passed by. It's not dishonorable for that to happen, as it is merely a symptom of being around for a long time in the NFL. It's happened to other coaches and coordinators, and now it's happened to Norv.

One of the most frustrating parts of the offense, aside from the remarkably leaky offensive line, has been the team's inability to utilize players according to their strengths. The offense has to toss Norv's system out the window. Sam Bradford has become uncomfortable, the WRs oftentimes run routes conflicting with a porous OL, some of the offensive weapons aren't getting proper playing time, and the running game is nonexistent. But given the overall skill player talent available, especially at WR, a decent coordinator with imagination should be able to get at least an average NFL performance from them.

Add one more to this line of thinking. My suspicion is that Zimmer just doesn't feel as confident about his experience and knowledge on the offensive side of the ball to make the move that needs to be made: moving on from Norv. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's why he brought Shurmur in, just in case Norv stunk again this season, he'd have a plan B on staff already. Juxtaposed to our overall defensive evolution since Zimmer arrived, our offense has gone in the exact opposite direction. I have complete faith in Zim's philosophies and ideas on D and that he knows what kind of players he needs to execute it. On O, I don't get that feeling AT ALL (yes, I'm shouting! :whistle: ).

Among the many annoying Norvisms is something you mention here--that we have talent (especially at WR) that simply goes unused. We have Patterson, Diggs, Rudy, etc. and have first down from the three and Norv chooses to run Matt F'n Asiata up the middle, why? Because our OL is so dang elite and they will surely open up huge holes for this former lift operator to run through? Holy smokes, my wife thought I was nuts yelling this stuff at the TV last night. She's right. :lol:
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Mothman
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Re: It's panic time

Post by Mothman » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:37 am

It does look like the game may have passed Turner by a bit but I think the offensive problems run deeper and I'm not convinced replacing Norv Turner will solve them. I think this problem begins with Spielman and Zimmer and it needs to be solved at that level first. As far as I'm concerned, the bloom is off the rose with Zimmer. I like a lot of things about the man: his toughness, his leadership, his skill as a defensive play caller and game-planner are all admirable. He practically drips intensity but as I mentioned elsewhere, the Vikings have exchanged one set of problems for another. Once again, they're an extremely unbalanced team. On Zimmer's watch, the defense has risen and the offense has descended near the bottom of the league, where it continues to flirt with historic lows by both team and league standards. Last year the Vikes flirted with a team season low for TD passes. This year it's the running game that could end up being historically bad. It's certainly not all Zimmer's fault. Some of it's on Spielman and Turner and the players. Everyone has to share some portion of the blame. Injuries have been a factor too. Whoever is reading this can throw in all the usual caveats... the bottom line is Spielman hand-picked his HC. Together, they've put together this coaching staff, this roster, this offense. There are certain trends that have clearly emerged over the past 2.5 seasons: predictability on offense, poor OL play, lack of efficiency in the red zone, a tendency to get blown out 2-3 times a year because the defense falters and the offense proves completely incapable of producing, a sometimes baffling stubbornness when it comes to play calling and personnel, etc.. After 2.5 seasons, this is the offense they've built. I imagine they own that but they also need to be held accountable for it.

By "held accountable", I don't mean Zimmer should be fired. I just mean we shouldn't keep compartmentalizing blame. Sparano and even Turner are symptomatic of deeper problems. Replacing Turner after this season might be a good idea but if that happens, and if his replacement is going to be successful, a shift in philosophy is necessary. If Zimmer wants to field a defensive team with a complementary, run-oriented offense, they need to build accordingly. They brought in Turner, a coordinator who likes to use a power running game and complement it with an aggressive downfield passing game and then didn't build accordingly. They drafted a QB ill-suited to that approach and failed to build an OL that could really make that power running game sing or provide time for slower-developing, downfield passing plays. What we're seeing on offense seems like a failure from the top down, a failure of vision. To some extent, this offense is the price they're paying for building the defense and maybe over the next few years, they can build a team where both units are good but right now, if the idea was to open a championship window in year 3, it looks like they might have sabotaged their own efforts.
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Re: It's panic time

Post by germannorseman » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:37 am

The running game is nonexistent because the line can't open a hole to save themselves. The passing game has slowed because Bradford has zero time to throw. Out receivers are not the problem this year and neither is the QB. We are actually about 3 linemen from a super bowl. We are a horrible line and would need an average line to get there.

And yes I agree on Norv. It may be time to,live on, but geez you got to feel bad for Bradford of Norv leaves. He would have to,learn ANOTHER system. As many OCs as that guy has had you would think his brain would explode.

Our defense still,only have up 20 pts. Our offense again couldn't score more than 20 points. We are NOT going to fix this line this year unless we can get 2 decent linemen by today. And that's not happening. So prepare for a long offensive season.

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Re: It's panic time

Post by Mothman » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:47 am

Texas Vike wrote:Add one more to this line of thinking. My suspicion is that Zimmer just doesn't feel as confident about his experience and knowledge on the offensive side of the ball to make the move that needs to be made: moving on from Norv. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's why he brought Shurmur in, just in case Norv stunk again this season, he'd have a plan B on staff already. Juxtaposed to our overall defensive evolution since Zimmer arrived, our offense has gone in the exact opposite direction. I have complete faith in Zim's philosophies and ideas on D and that he knows what kind of players he needs to execute it. On O, I don't get that feeling AT ALL (yes, I'm shouting! :whistle: ).

Among the many annoying Norvisms is something you mention here--that we have talent (especially at WR) that simply goes unused. We have Patterson, Diggs, Rudy, etc. and have first down from the three and Norv chooses to run Matt F'n Asiata up the middle, why? Because our OL is so dang elite and they will surely open up huge holes for this former lift operator to run through? Holy smokes, my wife thought I was nuts yelling this stuff at the TV last night. She's right. :lol:
I know I keep hammering away at this point but after 2.5 years of this, I just can't see it as a Turner problem anymore. It's a Zimmer problem. Whether he's confident about his offensive knowledge or not, as the head coach he has to lay down the proverbial law and run his team. If he wants Turner to call something less predictable and more likely to succeed than running Asiata up the middle on 1st down, he needs to make that happen. Emphasize it in meetings, when formulating the game plan, in practice. Get on the headphones when it's first and goal and let Turner know what he wants to see!
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Re: It's panic time

Post by halfgiz » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:52 am

germannorseman wrote:The running game is nonexistent because the line can't open a hole to save themselves. The passing game has slowed because Bradford has zero time to throw. Out receivers are not the problem this year and neither is the QB. We are actually about 3 linemen from a super bowl. We are a horrible line and would need an average line to get there.

And yes I agree on Norv. It may be time to,live on, but geez you got to feel bad for Bradford of Norv leaves. He would have to,learn ANOTHER system. As many OCs as that guy has had you would think his brain would explode.

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Bradford would more than likely team up with his old coordinator Pat Shurmur. Who is already on our coaching staff. So it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal.
Last edited by halfgiz on Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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