Cliff wrote:I guess. Saying "just do better with what you have" doesn't seem like it's always a realistic option.
"So what you broke your metal and wooden baseball bats? Just go out and use with this wiffleball bat. If you can't do that, you're a loser and need to be fired."
We can argue all day about whether or not they addressed the offensive line talent properly or they've just got bad luck. What is inarguable at this point is that there's not enough talent and/or experience on the line. The tools aren't there to be successful against good defensive talent. At least the experience part can be made up to some degree as the season goes on.
Yes, and they may be able to see issues that are correctable and address them. Personally, I think it's clear that defense has been the team's primary focus since Zimmer arrived and the offense has suffered for it. That's been complicated by some personnel decisions on offense that haven't worked out and by some bad luck as well.
Considering their cap situation, saying "just do better with what you have" may be the only option remaining to them but I agree, that doesn't mean it's realistic to expect them to dramatically improve without making changes that may not be possible in season. Maybe the line will pull together and improve over the next few months. We can hope...
Mothman wrote:
Zimmer needs to prove he is up to it. It's not enough to be a resolute leader and a great defensive coordinator. The offense has declined and stagnated for almost 2.5 years on his watch. Turner's been unimpressive but he's not the head coach. Zimmer and Spielman need to turn their focus to the offense and get it right. Maybe Turner should be involved in that going forward and maybe not but the buck stops above his current pay grade.
Zimmer is not off the hook here, that's why I said Norv is in his blind spot. I don't know why he is accepting such unacceptable performances from the offense. As I've said before, if our offense was a defensive player he'd be out of a job. Zimmer can't be OC too, but he has to hold the OC responsible somehow.
Mothman wrote:... a good completion percentage in a performance like that is like putting lipstick on a pig.
I'm not trying to play devil's advocate, but I just don't see the OC as the problem here. If anything, it's amazing what he's wringing out of that sieve of a line. He's even had Bradford throwing downfield in the first five weeks. Of course Bradford has been getting killed even with his successful passes. I'm just amazed that we haven't had more days like yesterday. We've been milliseconds away from QB hits for fumbles in every game.
And our play-action isn't getting any respect either. Having watched Sam since college, he's always been a very accurate passer on roll out plays. I think that's the only "solution" to our line problem, although I admit it doesn't solve everything.
One last thought in line with the thread's topic: Shumer really understands Sam. The last year/last game with Philly, with Shurmer as the head coach, Sam was all world against the Giants at Giant Stadium.
God I hope not, I've been touting how bad he is for some time now, it's so obvious. Sure the O-line is terrible but they're also in a situation where they're asked to run block when the other team is selling out to stop the run on 1st down and they're asked to pass block in obvious 3rd and long situations due to the high rate of failure (due to predictability) on first and second down.
A lot of people thought AD was the problem and with him gone we'd use Mckinnin as this great pass catching weapon out of the back field and we'll be less predicitable and the offense won't have to go through the RB and yet nothing's changed. We still run which ever back right up the gut 70% of the time on first down, fail to use play action on those obvious running downs, and fail to be even remotely creative in the passing game.
Where are the designed roll outs? Where are the screen passes to take advantage of such aggressive pass rushes? Why does it take 3 and a half quarters of getting our #### kicked to get the ball in Patterson's hands? 3rd and 1 and we run it up the gut and get stuffed, 4th and 1 do the exact same thing and get stuffed again.
He needs to go so bad it's not even funny. My only fear is that people will be blinded enough by the O-line to keep letting Norv off the hook. Please Zimmer, tighten that leash, I have to believe you brought in Pat Shurmur in case we needed to go in another direction, end our suffering! He knows Bradford better than Norv anyway!
mondry wrote:We still run which ever back right up the gut 70% of the time on first down, fail to use play action on those obvious running downs, and fail to be even remotely creative in the passing game.
Where are the designed roll outs? Where are the screen passes to take advantage of such aggressive pass rushes? Why does it take 3 and a half quarters of getting our #### kicked to get the ball in Patterson's hands? 3rd and 1 and we run it up the gut and get stuffed, 4th and 1 do the exact same thing and get stuffed again.
That kind of stuff drives me crazy, too. I'm afraid we see it all too often with offensive coordinators who try to force feed the players into their precious system as opposed to trying to design the schemes around the team's talent.
mondry wrote:Please Zimmer, tighten that leash, I have to believe you brought in Pat Shurmur in case we needed to go in another direction, end our suffering! He knows Bradford better than Norv anyway!
Good point about Shurmur. But I have the feeling Zimmer is already picking Shurmur's brain about using Bradford wisely. Unless Shurmur can improve both the offensive line blocking and playcalling strategy, there might not be much he can do.
Where's this coming from? This isn't on Norv -- from a play calling perspective that is...Who knows what kind of hand he has in coaching up the lineman.
PacificNorseWest wrote:Where's this coming from? This isn't on Norv -- from a play calling perspective that is...Who knows what kind of hand he has in coaching up the lineman.
Where it is coming from? Three straight years of ever-worsening offensive performance. We've been through changes in RB, QB, Oline, seasons, offseasons, assistant coaches and still we suck offensively. What has remained the same through all of this sucking? Norv Turner, the over-rated OC who once won a Super Bowl with a Hall of Fame QB and a Hall of Fame RB, and hasn't been near one since.
Mothman wrote:... a good completion percentage in a performance like that is like putting lipstick on a pig.
The Patriots lost 16-0 to the Bills without Tom Brady. The Cardinals offense scored 6 points yesterday. So did the Seahawks. I think Atlanta and Washington are decent teams, both lost yesterday to sub-par teams (although I think the Chargers are a lot better than their record reflects).
Yes, the line is a huge problem but lets try and not lose perspective. This is still a 5-1 team without either starting tackle and their #1 offensive weapon. Bradford has been on the team for 6 weeks or so. I don't care who you have as OC, that's going to impact you in a major way.
As PHP mentioned, every team has a weakness. You can't be solid at every position, especially with injuries. The Vikings are just going to need to find a way to win in spite of the line's shortcomings. Norv is old school but I think he's willing to adapt. Did no one see us run the wildcat at least twice?
Patterson is on the field a lot more. You're not going to see Chip Kelley offense out there, but is that what we really want?
Issues that were known were exposed this week. No doubt about that but lets see how they adjust. Seven weeks ago a lot of people were throwing in the towel on this season and look at where we are now. This is still a good team. A really good team that at the very least deserves the benefit of the doubt.
losperros wrote:
Good point about Shurmur. But I have the feeling Zimmer is already picking Shurmur's brain about using Bradford wisely. Unless Shurmur can improve both the offensive line blocking and playcalling strategy, there might not be much he can do.
When Shurmur was at Philly his teams total offensive rating in 2014 was 5th in the league .
In 2015 he was rated 12th and he wasn't working with a great line or recievers.
That's a far cry better than Norv's 29th 2015 currently 32nd in 2016
I'm hoping they start leaning heavier on Shurmur.
Not to many teams in the NFL are without problems though.
We just need to take it one game at a time and try to improve. That's all you can do...
I agree with you that people shouldn't hit the panic button but we have seen some issues that keep coming up. I personally feel that the line is garbage. However, I also feel that this offense aids in the issue with the lack of creativity. It's no secrete that this team run s on first down almost all of the time. It's the lack of surprise from this offense hats troubling. When I was playing coach from behind my tv screen yesterday I was just hoping that the Vikings would actually do a playaction on either third or fourth down when they couldn't get one yard. One yard with one way Asiata who will run into a brick wall before changing direction.
There will be other games like this as long as Norv and Zimmerman keep playing run, run, play action pass deep ball type offense.
TURNER??? LOL...Better question is "Will Tony S be OL coach Monday night???'
Turner is FAR from the problem with the O. Poor OL and weak RB's are dragging down the offense and make no mistake the Bears can put a lot of the same pressure on next Monday that Philly just did.
That said, I expect OL juggling to be the order of this weeks practice.
Zimmer hasn't had the success he's had by succumbing to knee-jerk reactions. Norv isn't the one out there blocking on the offensive line, and it's plain as the nose on my face that it was the poor offensive line play coupled with a boat load of mistakes in all phases that led to the loss. No way Norv deserves blame for all of that.
My theory is Zimmer is hoping that Arians gets canned in AZ after this season so he can bring him in. Then we'll have the two meanest coaches in the NFL. It will be beautiful.
Winning is not a sometime thing it is an all of the time thing - Vince Lombardi
