The German Unicorn

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Jordysghost
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by Jordysghost » Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:39 pm

Mothman wrote: If it was a favor to the league, it might not have even been his call. It could have been a Wilf decision.
I really, really doubt that. Idk what 'favor' you would even be doing the league, MoBo isn't the first international player to garner late round interest.
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by Jordysghost » Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:43 pm

Mothman wrote: I think that might be the case and Michael Sam also occurred to me as another example. Both picks seem like PR moves and, as you said, what that entails behind the scenes is anybody's guess (maybe the Vikes and Rams really did just take one for the team).
That's an excellent idea.
While I think the idea of Sam being a pr move is far fetched in its own right, MoBo being one to me seems ridiculous, the guy was drafted pretty much about where expected, im not getting the rationale behind thinking it was some kind of PR move.

I don't like Fiesta last idea because it seems pretty unfair to offer such a thing to developmental prospects from outside the country, while not also offering such a thing for developmental players from within. (D3 players, Arena players etc. etc.)
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by fiestavike » Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:55 pm

Jordysghost wrote:
I don't like Fiesta last idea because it seems pretty unfair to offer such a thing to developmental prospects from outside the country, while not also offering such a thing for developmental players from within. (D3 players, Arena players etc. etc.)
If the league has a legitimate financial interest in developing the game internationally (which they do) and they believe international players are essential to that, I think it seems at least strategically sound to consider some kind of roster exemption for international players. I don't think they're particularly concerned about equal oportunity for D3 players.
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by Jordysghost » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:02 pm

fiestavike wrote: If the league has a legitimate financial interest in developing the game internationally (which they do) and they believe international players are essential to that, I think it seems at least strategically sound to consider some kind of roster exemption for international players. I don't think they're particularly concerned about equal oportunity for D3 players.
Which isn't even remotely fair in any sense. Not only is that giving an unfair advantage to individual players over another set of individual players, it is giving an unfair advantage to teams with international players in comparison to teams without them.

Could you say 'Well then teams should look harder at players from amongst the international pool to keep up.' Sure, but that is pigeon holing teams into players that they otherwise might not be interested in which is not good for the game, imo.
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by fiestavike » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:21 pm

Jordysghost wrote: Which isn't even remotely fair in any sense.
Who cares?
Not only is that giving an unfair advantage to individual players over another set of individual players, it is giving an unfair advantage to teams with international players in comparison to teams without them.
I'm pretty sure they could find a way to implement it that would mitigate advantages to teams that already have those players on the roster. I think the bigger complication is who gets to count as international. Certainly, lots of teams have Hatian players, but this is of almost no use to the NFLs goal of developing overseas markets since Haiti is a very poor country. I'd have no objection to them simply creating a list of nations where they want to see the league's brand enhanced and counting players from those countries as eligible, but would the PC, "its not fair" crowd make it a PR nightmare?
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by Jordysghost » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:29 pm

fiestavike wrote: Who cares?
I'm pretty sure they could find a way to implement it that would mitigate advantages to teams that already have those players on the roster. I think the bigger complication is who gets to count as international. Certainly, lots of teams have Hatian players, but this is of almost no use to the NFLs goal of developing overseas markets since Haiti is a very poor country. I'd have no objection to them simply creating a list of nations where they want to see the league's brand enhanced and counting players from those countries as eligible, but would the PC, "its not fair" crowd make it a PR nightmare?
I care, the players subject to disadvantage would care, a lot of other fans would care, but most importantly, the NFLPA would care, I cant imagine they would ever stand for such a blatant discrepancy in treatment between players. (Also, I reject the premise that this an issue of 'political correctness' and more so an issue of basic fairness)

Again, you would be pigeon holing players onto teams that wouldn't be interested in them otherwise and imo, that is not good for the game.
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by S197 » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:15 pm

Everyone is a long shot in the 6th round. I think a guy like MoBo is the exact type you want to go out and grab in the 6th or 7th. Someone without a lot of experience but off the chart athleticism. You either go that direction or someone who had a ton of production in college but fell because they didn't have the measurables. In either case, it's all a crap shoot by those rounds.
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by Mothman » Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:19 pm

S197 wrote:Everyone is a long shot in the 6th round. I think a guy like MoBo is the exact type you want to go out and grab in the 6th or 7th. Someone without a lot of experience but off the chart athleticism. You either go that direction or someone who had a ton of production in college but fell because they didn't have the measurables. In either case, it's all a crap shoot by those rounds.

I know what you're saying but there are long shots and then there LONG shots. Scouting and solid football experience should still count for something in the 6th round and that pick is also something that can be packaged to move up. In my view, MoBo isn't the type of player you spend a 6th round pick on. Thats eems like maximizing the risk of the investment. To me, he's clearly the type of player a team should sign as a free agent after the draft: all athleticism with little practical experience, a pure project. Players like him work out even more rarely than late round picks. In the 6th round, there are still good football players with enough experience to potentially make the roster and contribute, players like John Sullivan, Brandon Fusco, Blair Walsh or Shamar Stephen.
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by Raptorman » Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:19 pm

Jordysghost wrote:This is a late round developmental pick, did you expect him to do much by now?
Why yes I do! I expect him to be the Tom Brady of Wide receivers! Anything less is a disappointment.
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by S197 » Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:17 pm

Mothman wrote:
I know what you're saying but there are long shots and then there LONG shots. Scouting and solid football experience should still count for something in the 6th round and that pick is also something that can be packaged to move up. In my view, MoBo isn't the type of player you spend a 6th round pick on. Thats eems like maximizing the risk of the investment. To me, he's clearly the type of player a team should sign as a free agent after the draft: all athleticism with little practical experience, a pure project. Players like him work out even more rarely than late round picks. In the 6th round, there are still good football players with enough experience to potentially make the roster and contribute, players like John Sullivan, Brandon Fusco, Blair Walsh or Shamar Stephen.
I had forgotten Sullivan and Fusco were 6th rounders (I was thinking 5th for some reason). I decided to go back and look at our 6th round picks over the last 10 years. They are:

C.J. MOSLEY (191), DT, Missouri
RUFUS ALEXANDER (176), LB, Oklahoma.
JOHN SULLIVAN (187), C, Notre Dame
JAYMAR JOHNSON (193), WR, Jackson State
JOE WEBB (199), QB, UAB
DEMARCUS LOVE (168), OL, Arkansas
MISTRAL RAYMOND (170), DB, South Flordia
BRANDON FUSCO (172), OL, Slippery Rock
ROSS HOMAN (200), LB, Ohio State
BLAIR WALSH (175), K, Georgia
JEFF BACA (196), G, UCLA
ANTONE EXUM (182), S, Virginia Tech
KENDALL JAMES (184), CB, Maine
TYRUS THOMPSON (185), T, Oklahoma
B.J. DUBOSE (193), DE

So 3/15 are solid contributors, with 2/15 playing modest roles at some point (Raymond, Webb). So unscientifically speaking, roughly a 1 in 3 chance of finding a guy that makes an impact on the team. Honestly, that's a little higher than I was expecting, I thought it would be around 20%. So I get where you're coming from and I guess the question then becomes does a guy with TE size and WR speed mitigate lack of experience and body of work. You can make an argument either way.

What I will say is I don't think this was just a "feel good" story pick. Mayock was impressed with him as were other scouts (assuming you believe Mayock). So I do think there's something tangible there, whether or not it comes to fruition, I don't know that anyone really expected to know that at this point in his career.
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by Texas Vike » Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:04 am

S197 wrote: I had forgotten Sullivan and Fusco were 6th rounders (I was thinking 5th for some reason). I decided to go back and look at our 6th round picks over the last 10 years. They are:

C.J. MOSLEY (191), DT, Missouri
RUFUS ALEXANDER (176), LB, Oklahoma.
JOHN SULLIVAN (187), C, Notre Dame
JAYMAR JOHNSON (193), WR, Jackson State
JOE WEBB (199), QB, UAB
DEMARCUS LOVE (168), OL, Arkansas
MISTRAL RAYMOND (170), DB, South Flordia
BRANDON FUSCO (172), OL, Slippery Rock
ROSS HOMAN (200), LB, Ohio State
BLAIR WALSH (175), K, Georgia
JEFF BACA (196), G, UCLA
ANTONE EXUM (182), S, Virginia Tech
KENDALL JAMES (184), CB, Maine
TYRUS THOMPSON (185), T, Oklahoma
B.J. DUBOSE (193), DE

So 3/15 are solid contributors, with 2/15 playing modest roles at some point (Raymond, Webb). So unscientifically speaking, roughly a 1 in 3 chance of finding a guy that makes an impact on the team. Honestly, that's a little higher than I was expecting, I thought it would be around 20%. So I get where you're coming from and I guess the question then becomes does a guy with TE size and WR speed mitigate lack of experience and body of work. You can make an argument either way.

What I will say is I don't think this was just a "feel good" story pick. Mayock was impressed with him as were other scouts (assuming you believe Mayock). So I do think there's something tangible there, whether or not it comes to fruition, I don't know that anyone really expected to know that at this point in his career.
Thanks for putting that analysis together. I enjoyed reading it. I agree with you that MoBo was likely more than just a feel good pick, he has potential, no doubt about it. My gripe is more along these lines: we REALLY needed to address OL. Why take a WR when we had already invested a high pick in Treadwell and have a similar athletic freak (CP), who is much closer to being a contributor, but similarly needs some refinement before he can crack the starting lineup.

I get it. BPA, right? Honestly, if I were GM I'd have gone with BOTA (best OT available). I mean, if they're going to go with this BS quantity over quality investment in the position, then we needed to do it with draft picks too.
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by Mothman » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:09 am

S197 wrote:So 3/15 are solid contributors, with 2/15 playing modest roles at some point (Raymond, Webb). So unscientifically speaking, roughly a 1 in 3 chance of finding a guy that makes an impact on the team. Honestly, that's a little higher than I was expecting, I thought it would be around 20%. So I get where you're coming from and I guess the question then becomes does a guy with TE size and WR speed mitigate lack of experience and body of work. You can make an argument either way.
Indeed and this is a pretty extreme case. We're talking about an extreme lack of experience and thus a player facing a massive learning curve. This isn't even Cordarrelle Patterson, with one year of major college football experience to go with loads of athletic talent. Boehringer is making a quantum leap in both the level of competition and the complexity of the playbook. When weighed against other potential uses for the work, I think it's difficult to make a compelling case for the choice.
What I will say is I don't think this was just a "feel good" story pick. Mayock was impressed with him as were other scouts (assuming you believe Mayock). So I do think there's something tangible there, whether or not it comes to fruition, I don't know that anyone really expected to know that at this point in his career.
What's there is size and athleticism but I question whether the Vikings will be willing to make the likely 3 or 4 year commitment to developing this player, especially after they spent a 1st round pick on Patterson and their commitment to developing him as a receiver has appeared questionable (to me anyway). If they weren't willing to show more patience with a first round investment that cost them multiple picks, it's hard to believe they'll make that 3+ year commitment to a long shot and if they won't, the pick was pretty pointless from the start unless it was a PR move for the league.

If he makes the practice squad, that will tell us a little more about their level of commitment.
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by fiestavike » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:38 pm

Mothman wrote: Indeed and this is a pretty extreme case. We're talking about an extreme lack of experience and thus a player facing a massive learning curve. This isn't even Cordarrelle Patterson, with one year of major college football experience to go with loads of athletic talent. Boehringer is making a quantum leap in both the level of competition and the complexity of the playbook. When weighed against other potential uses for the work, I think it's difficult to make a compelling case for the choice.
What's there is size and athleticism but I question whether the Vikings will be willing to make the likely 3 or 4 year commitment to developing this player, especially after they spent a 1st round pick on Patterson and their commitment to developing him as a receiver has appeared questionable (to me anyway). If they weren't willing to show more patience with a first round investment that cost them multiple picks, it's hard to believe they'll make that 3+ year commitment to a long shot and if they won't, the pick was pretty pointless from the start unless it was a PR move for the league.

If he makes the practice squad, that will tell us a little more about their level of commitment.
I don't think there is anything unfair about your take on this. He's clearly a long term (and long shot) project, but they have given Freuchte 3 years already I think, so its not as though they don't have a track record of trying to invest in a longshot WR.
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by mondry » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:34 pm

fiestavike wrote:
I don't think there is anything unfair about your take on this. He's clearly a long term (and long shot) project, but they have given Freuchte 3 years already I think, so its not as though they don't have a track record of trying to invest in a longshot WR.
Agreed, and like it or not there is a big difference between how you have to handle a first round pick like Patterson and a 6th round flier on a guy like MoBo. Neither player was even close to ready to play in the NFL but you have to give the 1st rounder reps in real games and deal with the mistakes. The mistakes started to heavily out weigh the production and they had to pull the plug which I completely understand. You can't let one player hurt your team that much just for the sake of developing that one player.

They can afford to take it slow with MoBo though because there isn't that same level of commitment or expectation in him so there's no real harm in seeing what happens with him over time on the practice squad, as long as they deem him worthy of the spot that is.
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Re: The German Unicorn

Post by S197 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:47 pm

Right, when you are paying a guy the minimum salary vs 1st round money, it affords you more flexibility. Thielen is another player who they've given several years and looks like he could potentially pay dividends this year. And that might really be key to MoBo, can he contribute on special teams like Thielen was able to.
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