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 Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article 
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
What does the NFLPA have at stake exactly? If someone does another investigation and publishes the findings then some players may need to answer questions?

It's not like they're using the comments section of an article on NFL.com to make the decision to investigate.

Also, are the players not allowed to participate without NFLPA concent? I wasn't aware of that.

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Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:29 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Cliff wrote:
What does the NFLPA have at stake exactly? If someone does another investigation and publishes the findings then some players may need to answer questions?

It's not like they're using the comments section of an article on NFL.com to make the decision to investigate.

Also, are the players not allowed to participate without NFLPA concent? I wasn't aware of that.

Sent using tapatalk. Typos should be expected.


The NFLPA does not want to set a precedent that players can be subjected to investigation based upon self disgraced and recanted comments, Peyton being cleared only strengthens the idea that this investigation is unfounded, again, to be very clear, the NFLPA does not want to set the precedent that the players can be subjected to investigation based upon self disgraced and recanted comments.

Players can act upon their own volition should they want to, but if they are members of the NFLPA and agree with the NFLPA's stance, why should they?

I can think of one reason, and it is the same reason I think they are going to give in at some point, to dodge suspension, but i don't think it is something they agree with.

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Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:36 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
I'm still not sure how you 'recant' something you never meant for anyone else to hear. You can't 'recant' a statement you made while under police survalance, for example.

It wasn't a statement made to a reporter that he's now trying to take back. Of course he wants to take it back now, it's brought him a ton of heat and likely ruined his career.

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Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:18 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Cliff wrote:
I'm still not sure how you 'recant' something you never meant for anyone else to hear. You can't 'recant' a statement you made while under police survalance, for example.

It wasn't a statement made to a reporter that he's now trying to take back. Of course he wants to take it back now, it's brought him a ton of heat and likely ruined his career.

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That is your perception, but not everybodys.

I don't think this 'ruined his career' by any means, but I think lying in defense of roiding players that are under investigation could probably negatively affect his career greatly, I don't think that is the case though, why did he name Peyton Manning?

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Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:29 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Jordysghost wrote:
Cliff wrote:
I'm still not sure how you 'recant' something you never meant for anyone else to hear. You can't 'recant' a statement you made while under police surveillance, for example.

It wasn't a statement made to a reporter that he's now trying to take back. Of course he wants to take it back now, it's brought him a ton of heat and likely ruined his career.

Sent using tapatalk. Typos should be expected.


That is your perception, but not everybodys.

I don't think this 'ruined his career' by any means, but I think lying in defense of roiding players that are under investigation could probably negatively affect his career greatly, I don't think that is the case though, why did he name Peyton Manning?


What do you mean that's my perception? You can't "recant" something you were busted saying. That's not how it works. Recant means you've changed your mind about an opinion or belief you held. He stated something as a fact and when the thing he stated came out he backpedaled and said he was lying about it in order to "test" someone.

If you don't think there should be an investigation that's fine but saying it shouldn't happen because this guy 'recanted' is nonsense.

So, if you were an professional athlete, you would work with this guy knowing he named several people using HGH? Lying or not? I bet that would do wonders for your public image. Let's say there is no investigation and it's all just pushed to the side/swept under the rug. The players named are always going to have 'questions' surrounding them in the minds of fans. Would you really be willing to take that risk? I wouldn't.

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Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:45 am
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Cliff wrote:
Jordysghost wrote:
Cliff wrote:
I'm still not sure how you 'recant' something you never meant for anyone else to hear. You can't 'recant' a statement you made while under police surveillance, for example.

It wasn't a statement made to a reporter that he's now trying to take back. Of course he wants to take it back now, it's brought him a ton of heat and likely ruined his career.

Sent using tapatalk. Typos should be expected.


That is your perception, but not everybodys.

I don't think this 'ruined his career' by any means, but I think lying in defense of roiding players that are under investigation could probably negatively affect his career greatly, I don't think that is the case though, why did he name Peyton Manning?


What do you mean that's my perception? You can't "recant" something you were busted saying. That's not how it works. Recant means you've changed your mind about an opinion or belief you held. He stated something as a fact and when the thing he stated came out he backpedaled and said he was lying about it in order to "test" someone.

If you don't think there should be an investigation that's fine but saying it shouldn't happen because this guy 'recanted' is nonsense.

So, if you were an professional athlete, you would work with this guy knowing he named several people using HGH? Lying or not? I bet that would do wonders for your public image. Let's say there is no investigation and it's all just pushed to the side/swept under the rug. The players named are always going to have 'questions' surrounding them in the minds of fans. Would you really be willing to take that risk? I wouldn't.


You can recant anything that came out of your mouth.

Once again, I think the consequences of lying in defense of players currently under investigation after making the comments he did are much greater then any soreness a player might feel in regards to his comments,, I don't think recanting and defending the same names he dropped that are currently under investigation serves much of a purpose or would help him much anyway.

Once again, if these comments were justly based in reality why was Manning cleared?

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Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:40 am
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Jordysghost wrote:
You can recant anything that came out of your mouth.


Tell that to a defendant who is on tape talking about a drug deal.

Quote:
Once again, I think the consequences of lying in defense of players currently under investigation after making the comments he did are much greater then any soreness a player might feel in regards to his comments,, I don't think recanting and defending the same names he dropped that are currently under investigation serves much of a purpose or would help him much anyway.


See, now *that* is a perception. You're giving you opinion (as I did) about what I think it means to his career.

Quote:
Once again, if these comments were justly based in reality why was Manning cleared?


Guilty people are cleared of crimes all the time ... being cleared doesn't always mean you were innocent, it just means they couldn't prove you were guilty.

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Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:48 am
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Cliff wrote:
Jordysghost wrote:
You can recant anything that came out of your mouth.


Tell that to a defendant who is on tape talking about a drug deal.

Quote:
Once again, I think the consequences of lying in defense of players currently under investigation after making the comments he did are much greater then any soreness a player might feel in regards to his comments,, I don't think recanting and defending the same names he dropped that are currently under investigation serves much of a purpose or would help him much anyway.


See, now *that* is a perception. You're giving you opinion (as I did) about what I think it means to his career.

Quote:
Once again, if these comments were justly based in reality why was Manning cleared?


Guilty people are cleared of crimes all the time ... being cleared doesn't always mean you were innocent, it just means they couldn't prove you were guilty.


But if its that easy for a guilty man to be cleared in this situation, why even bother with the investigation? If it is that simple, what is even the point? Your basing an investigation upon a retracted statement that didn't even hold the slightest bit of water in regards to one of the biggest names on the list.

Nothing about this investigation hold any water at all, your going to interview one player to no avail, and then just write it off as 'Oh well just because he was cleared doesn't mean he was innocent'? :roll: This is exactly the kind of attitude the NFLPA is trying to counter, your essentially saying the investigation is warranted because 'it just is.'

In any event, Clay and J Pep have submitted to the NFLs demands. http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports ... /88961554/

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Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:39 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Jordysghost wrote:
But if its that easy for a guilty man to be cleared in this situation, why even bother with the investigation? If it is that simple, what is even the point? Your basing an investigation upon a retracted statement that didn't even hold the slightest bit of water in regards to one of the biggest names on the list.

I'm assuming that the evidence won't be exactly the same for all parties involved. They would have made contact at different times, there would potentially be different sets of witnesses, etc, etc.

Quote:
"Nothing about this investigation hold any water at all, your going to interview one player to no avail, and then just write it off as 'Oh well just because he was cleared doesn't mean he was innocent'? :roll: This is exactly the kind of attitude the NFLPA is trying to counter, your essentially saying the investigation is warranted because 'it just is.'

I don't know if he was innocent or guilty. If they weren't able to find evidence for Manning that means for all intents and purposes he's innocent. I wasn't saying that Manning was guilty in this case, just that being ruled innocent doesn't mean you necessarily were ...

Plus, Manning being cleared has nothing to do with the other players. It's not like they all would have gone as a group.

I'm saying an investigation is warranted because an undercover investigation suggested that several NFL players are using illegal performance enhancing drugs ...

Quote:
In any event, Clay and J Pep have submitted to the NFLs demands. http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports ... /88961554/

That's their best course of action in my opinion. It's the only way it's going to be put behind them either way. Not responding to the documentary was impossible unless they wanted to be seen as cheaters. In my opinion the investigation is probably a good thing for the players overall. It's likely that there is no real concrete evidence so they'll be cleared and it'll be put to bed, but that's just my perception ;)

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:15 am
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Your damn straight there is no real or clear evidence in this situation, which is exactly why the NFLPA didn't want their players submitting to investigation. To me, in a situation like that, there is nothing to 'suggest' that several NFL players were using or taking PEDs.

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:07 am
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Jordysghost wrote:
Your damn straight there is no real or clear evidence in this situation, which is exactly why the NFLPA didn't want their players submitting to investigation. To me, in a situation like that, there is nothing to 'suggest' that several NFL players were using or taking PEDs.


There is a recording of a guy admitting he helped these players get HGH and it had enough weight to produce an hour long documentary. So "nothing to suggest" is wrong. You may not find it a reason to investigate, but that's just your perspective and not everyone feels that way :)

By the way ... how exactly do you think this benefits the NFL? What is their motive for investigating the players?

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:23 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Cliff wrote:
Jordysghost wrote:
Your damn straight there is no real or clear evidence in this situation, which is exactly why the NFLPA didn't want their players submitting to investigation. To me, in a situation like that, there is nothing to 'suggest' that several NFL players were using or taking PEDs.


There is a recording of a guy admitting he helped these players get HGH and it had enough weight to produce an hour long documentary. So "nothing to suggest" is wrong. You may not find it a reason to investigate, but that's just your perspective and not everyone feels that way :)

By the way ... how exactly do you think this benefits the NFL? What is their motive for investigating the players?


And that statement has already been put to the test on one player to no avail. :confused:

I don't think the NFL is doing this for some benefit of their own and never said nor implied such a thing, so I don't really understand how that question is relevant.

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:34 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Cliff wrote:

By the way ... how exactly do you think this benefits the NFL? What is their motive for investigating the players?


to clear them and move on, because this is bad for business, and the perception that they might be caught up in this is bad for business. Meet the players, clear them, write off the report, and move on.


Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:42 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
fiestavike wrote:
Cliff wrote:

By the way ... how exactly do you think this benefits the NFL? What is their motive for investigating the players?


to clear them and move on, because this is bad for business, and the perception that they might be caught up in this is bad for business. Meet the players, clear them, write off the report, and move on.


Lol, riiiiigghhtt, now this is all the NFL's conspiracy to clear the players names unjustly, you think they could have had someone tell Clay and Pep that before they took it down to the wire with suspensions on the line.

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:44 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Jordysghost wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
Cliff wrote:

By the way ... how exactly do you think this benefits the NFL? What is their motive for investigating the players?


to clear them and move on, because this is bad for business, and the perception that they might be caught up in this is bad for business. Meet the players, clear them, write off the report, and move on.


Lol, riiiiigghhtt, now this is all the NFL's conspiracy to clear the players names unjustly, you think they could have had someone tell Clay and Pep that before they took it down to the wire with suspensions on the line.


its not a conspiracy, its just common sense.


Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:56 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
fiestavike wrote:
Jordysghost wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
to clear them and move on, because this is bad for business, and the perception that they might be caught up in this is bad for business. Meet the players, clear them, write off the report, and move on.


Lol, riiiiigghhtt, now this is all the NFL's conspiracy to clear the players names unjustly, you think they could have had someone tell Clay and Pep that before they took it down to the wire with suspensions on the line.


its not a conspiracy, its just common sense.


Right, and while I do believe you truly want to believe that, im wondering why Clay and Pep never got the memo.

I guess the MLB is also in on the common sense, given that a few of their players mentioned have been interviewed and cleared as well.

The dude who made the statements said they were inaccurate, every single player mentioned that complied has been interviewed and cleared, common sense is right.

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:00 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Jordysghost wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
Cliff wrote:

By the way ... how exactly do you think this benefits the NFL? What is their motive for investigating the players?


to clear them and move on, because this is bad for business, and the perception that they might be caught up in this is bad for business. Meet the players, clear them, write off the report, and move on.


Lol, riiiiigghhtt, now this is all the NFL's conspiracy to clear the players names unjustly, you think they could have had someone tell Clay and Pep that before they took it down to the wire with suspensions on the line.

So again; what does the NFL have to gain by doing this?

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:21 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Cliff wrote:
Jordysghost wrote:
fiestavike wrote:

to clear them and move on, because this is bad for business, and the perception that they might be caught up in this is bad for business. Meet the players, clear them, write off the report, and move on.


Lol, riiiiigghhtt, now this is all the NFL's conspiracy to clear the players names unjustly, you think they could have had someone tell Clay and Pep that before they took it down to the wire with suspensions on the line.

So again; what does the NFL have to gain by doing this?

Sent using tapatalk. Typos should be expected.


I never stated the NFL was going through with this investigation for some profit of their own, but to answer your question, so that nobody can say they turned a blind eye to PED allegations, unfounded and unsubstantial they may be.

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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Jordysghost wrote:

Right, and while I do believe you truly want to believe that, im wondering why Clay and Pep never got the memo.

I guess the MLB is also in on the common sense, given that a few of their players mentioned have been interviewed and cleared as well.

The dude who made the statements said they were inaccurate, every single player mentioned that complied has been interviewed and cleared, common sense is right.


I don't even understand th realation between most of what you are saying and what I'm saying except that perhaps you are imagining vulnerabilities in your argument and trying to get ahead of them. I honestly don't know, but they have nothing to do with what I've said.

Simple question: Do you really believe the NFL wants to see Clay Mathews, let alone PEYTON MANNING caught up in a PED scandal?


Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:29 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Jordysghost wrote:
Cliff wrote:
Jordysghost wrote:
[quote="fiestavike"]

to clear them and move on, because this is bad for business, and the perception that they might be caught up in this is bad for business. Meet the players, clear them, write off the report, and move on.


Lol, riiiiigghhtt, now this is all the NFL's conspiracy to clear the players names unjustly, you think they could have had someone tell Clay and Pep that before they took it down to the wire with suspensions on the line.

So again; what does the NFL have to gain by doing this?

Sent using tapatalk. Typos should be expected.


I never stated the NFL was going through with this investigation for some profit of their own, but to answer your question, so that nobody can say they turned a blind eye to PED allegations, unfounded and unsubstantial they may be.[/quote]
So ... remind me how that's bad and why players shouldn't comply when there's an allegation of this magnitude?

This is a major story that came out. It really doesn't matter what you think about the evidence or how legit it is. It's there, it was popularized, and there's absolutely no way it'll just go away on its own.

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:32 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
fiestavike wrote:
Jordysghost wrote:

Right, and while I do believe you truly want to believe that, im wondering why Clay and Pep never got the memo.

I guess the MLB is also in on the common sense, given that a few of their players mentioned have been interviewed and cleared as well.

The dude who made the statements said they were inaccurate, every single player mentioned that complied has been interviewed and cleared, common sense is right.


I don't even understand th realation between most of what you are saying and what I'm saying except that perhaps you are imagining vulnerabilities in your argument and trying to get ahead of them. I honestly don't know, but they have nothing to do with what I've said.

Simple question: Do you really believe the NFL wants to see Clay Mathews, let alone PEYTON MANNING caught up in a PED scandal?


What in my previous post could possibly 'Not understand the relation between what we are both saying'?

Do I think the NFL straight up WANTS those players to be caught up in PED usage? No, but I don't think they would WANT them to be implicated and subject to an investigation based upon a self disgraced article either, but it happened.

By your logic im curious as to why the NFL didn't just write off the article, and also why Clay, Pep and the entire NFLPA didn't get the memo that the NFL had their back the whole time and wanted only to clear them.

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:38 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Cliff wrote:
Jordysghost wrote:
Cliff wrote:
So again; what does the NFL have to gain by doing this?

Sent using tapatalk. Typos should be expected.


I never stated the NFL was going through with this investigation for some profit of their own, but to answer your question, so that nobody can say they turned a blind eye to PED allegations, unfounded and unsubstantial they may be.

So ... remind me how that's bad and why players shouldn't comply when there's an allegation of this magnitude?

This is a major story that came out. It really doesn't matter what you think about the evidence or how legit it is. It's there, it was popularized, and there's absolutely no way it'll just go away on its own.

Sent using tapatalk. Typos should be expected.


It is bad because in the eyes of the NFLPA it sets the precedent that players have to submit to an investigation regardless of the evidence, or lackthereof, in question.

Your claiming that evidence doesn't matter? Really? Should you be subject to unlawful search and/or seizure regardless of evidence simply because 'There is no way it will go away on its own'?

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:45 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Jordysghost wrote:
Cliff wrote:
Jordysghost wrote:
[quote="Cliff"]
So again; what does the NFL have to gain by doing this?

Sent using tapatalk. Typos should be expected.


I never stated the NFL was going through with this investigation for some profit of their own, but to answer your question, so that nobody can say they turned a blind eye to PED allegations, unfounded and unsubstantial they may be.

So ... remind me how that's bad and why players shouldn't comply when there's an allegation of this magnitude?

This is a major story that came out. It really doesn't matter what you think about the evidence or how legit it is. It's there, it was popularized, and there's absolutely no way it'll just go away on its own.

Sent using tapatalk. Typos should be expected.


It is bad because in the eyes of the NFLPA it sets the precedent that players have to submit to an investigation regardless of the evidence, or lackthereof, in question.

Your claiming that evidence doesn't matter? Really? Should you be subject to unlawful search and/or seizure regardless of evidence simply because 'There is no way it will go away on its own'?[/quote]

No, I didn't say the evidence doesn't matter. I said what *you* as an individual thinks about it doesn't matter.

With the level of evidence presented they think it's woth a look. The fact that the guy took back what he said doesn't change it being evidence.

Re: 'the NFLPA doesn't want to set a precedent'. What does that matter? The NFLPA doesn't have the power to do that anyway, obviously.

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:05 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Cliff wrote:
Jordysghost wrote:
Cliff wrote:


It is bad because in the eyes of the NFLPA it sets the precedent that players have to submit to an investigation regardless of the evidence, or lackthereof, in question.

Your claiming that evidence doesn't matter? Really? Should you be subject to unlawful search and/or seizure regardless of evidence simply because 'There is no way it will go away on its own'?


No, I didn't say the evidence doesn't matter. I said what *you* as an individual thinks about it doesn't matter.

With the level of evidence presented they think it's woth a look. The fact that the guy took back what he said doesn't change it being evidence.

Re: 'the NFLPA doesn't want to set a precedent'. What does that matter? The NFLPA doesn't have the power to do that anyway, obviously.

Sent using tapatalk. Typos should be expected.


Well yea, obviously some random #### fans opinion on the matter doesn't matter, but I never claimed it did, so im not really sure how that is relevant.

I think you misunderstood me, the NFLPA did not want the NFL to set the precedent that players can be investigated based off what they feel to be an unsubstantiated, and unfounded basis. By giving into the NFL's demands they do exactly that, the NFLPA still is not down with the investigation, but fortunately for my sanity it isn't just their choice, and there are multiple NFL players who want to avoid suspension.

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:17 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
So we agree then. Your opinion as to if they have enough evidence doesn't matter. The people whose opinion do matter think it's enough evidence.

Even if I agree they only care so they can say they tried and sweep it under the rug. I'm not saying the llayers are guilty, just that I expect the same result regardless.

I guess that's why this whole pretending to put up a fight thing is silly. The NFLPA never had the power to do anything anyway. It's all moot.

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:34 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Cliff wrote:
So we agree then. Your opinion as to if they have enough evidence doesn't matter. The people whose opinion do matter think it's enough evidence.

Even if I agree they only care so they can say they tried and sweep it under the rug. I'm not saying the llayers are guilty, just that I expect the same result regardless.

I guess that's why this whole pretending to put up a fight thing is silly. The NFLPA never had the power to do anything anyway. It's all moot.

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Yea, my opinion doesn't matter, though I share my opinion with NFLPA, whos opinion to a certain extent, does matter, which leads me to my next point.

The NFLPA certainly doesn't have all the power, but as the union representing the majority of the leagues employee they DO have some power, and that is the entire issue of this discussion, the NFLPA did not believe that there players should submit to an investigation based up what they feel to be unsubstantiated and unfounded claims, they were and still likely are concerned about the consequences from that precedent being set.

In principle I agree with the NFLPA, but I am happy the league threatened suspension being that that is what it took to get Clay and Pep to cooperate with the NFL's demands, which is in my opinion, in the team they play fors best interest.

I don't agree the NFL is doing this just to sweep it under the rug and say the tried, I think there would be easier courses of action had that been the case, this entire situation has been like pulling teeth.

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:43 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
In this situation the NFLPA had no power and they had to have known it. Going this far was delaying the inevitable.

We disagree and that's fine. I'm over the topic though. I know how this is going to go down. Everyone does. The NFL literally has to have video of a player doing something before they take action.

It boils down to us arguing semantics about whether an investigation is warrented and I think we're out of things to say at this point.


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Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:09 pm
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Packers Suck

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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Cliff wrote:
In this situation the NFLPA had no power and they had to have known it. Going this far was delaying the inevitable.

We disagree and that's fine. I'm over the topic though. I know how this is going to go down. Everyone does. The NFL literally has to have video of a player doing something before they take action.

It boils down to us arguing semantics about whether an investigation is warrented and I think we're out of things to say at this point.


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Idk why you think the NFLPA had no power, they are the players union after all..

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:22 pm
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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Pulling me back in ;)

Could they stop the NFL from suspending? What action did they take? What action could they have taken?

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:15 pm
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Packers Suck

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Post Re: Three Packers Linebackers named in Steroids Article
Cliff wrote:
Pulling me back in ;)

Could they stop the NFL from suspending? What action did they take? What action could they have taken?

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They encouraged their players not to comply with the investigation, thank goodness it isn't only there choice and Clay and Pep would rather avoid suspension then fight for the NFLPA's beliefs.

They didn't do much, they couldn't do much, but they did what they could, I don't think that equates to being powerless however, they are the union representing the most important part of the league. I don't think they did what they did just for the #### of it.

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Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:34 pm
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