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 REDSKINS name 
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Post REDSKINS name
supposedly many native americans take offense to the name "redskins". when I hear the name redskins I automatically think of the proud Washington redskins. it has a complete different meaning nowadays which is a terrific thing. cant believe some take offense to it in the year 2013. it shouldn't be compared in any way to the n***** word which is totally offensive.


Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:38 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
As an Apache, I, nor does anyone in my family, take offense. Playing the victim does no man any good. I love all Indian names of all athletic teams, although I may not care for the teams themselves. After all, I am a Viking!

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Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:09 am
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Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:22 am
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
Jeffbleedspurple wrote:
I have Indian blood, not a lot, but a little that goes back a few generations. I think the use of native American names is not offensive at all and their use is not intended to be offensive towards these people. Personally I think it's to symbolize bravery, pride and warrior type for the players.
I guess :thumbsup:


I'm mostly Irish so this doesn't offend me personally but I could see why it would offend someone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redskin_(slang)
"Redskin" is a racial descriptor for Native Americans, the origin of which is disputed. Although by some accounts not originally having negative intent [1], the term is now defined by dictionaries of American English as "usually offensive" [2], "disparaging" [3] [4], "insulting" [5], "taboo" [6] and is avoided in public usage with the exception of its continued use as a name for sports teams."

To think of it in another way ... would you walk up to a Native American and say "Hey there, Redskin!"? To me it seems *very* similar to any other racial slur only Native Americans have almost no voice about these issues.

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Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:41 am
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
If someone came up to me and said, "Hey Redskin," I would beam proudly, or laugh. If some wiseguy came up to me and said, "Hey Packer, or Hey Romo," now then fists would fly!

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Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:45 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
People are far too sensitive these days. The End.

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Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:57 am
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
could be embarrassing worse changing the name to something stupid like the new Orleans pelicans.


Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:50 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
I have quite a few Indian friends having lived of a few different reservations. A couple of Washo guys that I went to high school with referred to themselves as 'skins'...not redskins, just skins.

I think the only term used to label Native Americans that was meant to offend (and it does) was savages.

Seems like everything is extra sensitive these days. I just recently read about a group of black bears near Mt Shasta who are really pissed at Chicago. Heads up Chicago.....


Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:28 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
Jeffbleedspurple wrote:
I have Indian blood, not a lot, but a little that goes back a few generations. I think the use of native American names is not offensive at all and their use is not intended to be offensive towards these people. Personally I think it's to symbolize bravery, pride and warrior type for the players.
I guess :thumbsup:

I agree. people need to have thick skin. i'm finnish and I have heard many finlander jokes growing up. didn't offend me at all.
when you hear "redskins" I think everyone automatically think of the Washington redskins. it isn't derogatory at all.


Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:10 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
hibbingviking wrote:
Jeffbleedspurple wrote:
I have Indian blood, not a lot, but a little that goes back a few generations. I think the use of native American names is not offensive at all and their use is not intended to be offensive towards these people. Personally I think it's to symbolize bravery, pride and warrior type for the players.
I guess :thumbsup:

I agree. people need to have thick skin. i'm finnish and I have heard many finlander jokes growing up. didn't offend me at all.
when you hear "redskins" I think everyone automatically think of the Washington redskins. it isn't derogatory at all.


Well the "N-word" was originally neutral. It was just a variation of the Spanish word "Negro" mispronounced by Southerns. So why not have the Washington N*****s? I know a lot of black people that don't take offense to the word ... heck, I hear lots of black people refer to each other as that word.

Would you tell the people upset at that team name that they need to have thicker skin? Why not? Where do you draw the line?

Is it simply the number of people who are insulted that matters? Redskin might insult only 15,000 people where as n****r offends 1,000,000?

You and people you know personally that are Indian don't take offense to the word. So? Some people do. Regardless of what you personally think, the word is a negative racial slur. Look it up in any dictionary made in the last 20 years.

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Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:01 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
My feeling is that it requires the measure of intent when we are just talking about words used in conversation. But as to team names a national symbols it is different for reasons not so obvious. I don't believe the Washington Redskin name is an attempt to marginalize or offend...rather the opposite, it's a symbol of pride. But it's not the truth of native reality in modern society. Here's Sherman Alexie talking to Bill Moyers about it:

Quote:
Bill Moyers: What is it like to be an alien in the land of your birth?

Sherman Alexie:I mean, it's a destructive feeling. Because, you know, a lot of native culture has been destroyed. So you already feel lost inside your culture. And then you add up feeling lost and insignificant inside the larger culture. So you end up feeling lost squared. And to never be recognized, to never have any power, you know, other minority communities actually have a lot of economic, cultural power. But we don't, you know? Not at all.

I mean, you can still have the Washington Redskins, you know? You can still have the Atlanta Braves and the Cleveland Indians, which is by far the worst. And if you look at Chief Wahoo on their hats and put Sambo next to him, it's the same thing. And, you know, you could never have Sambo anymore.

Most, you know, at least half the country thinks the mascot issue is insignificant. But I think it's indicative of the ways in which Indians have no cultural power. We're still placed in the past. So we're either in the past or we're only viewed through casinos.
http://truth-out.org/video/item/15773-sherman-alexie-on-living-outside-cultural-borders

In this sense I find the names and symbols extremely offense and damaging even though the intent isn't there. I think the amer-opean tribe has a real guilt complex over what took place in this country. They want to claim the iconic "stoic native american" as their own symbol without understanding the irony or fully accepting the responsibility of having systematically dismantled that very image.

A great book to read about some of the deeper wounds still present in native culture is called, "Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James Loewen.


Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:51 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
The Breeze wrote:
My feeling is that it requires the measure of intent when we are just talking about words used in conversation. But as to team names a national symbols it is different for reasons not so obvious. I don't believe the Washington Redskin name is an attempt to marginalize or offend...rather the opposite, it's a symbol of pride.


I agree. And I just feel like if this was SUCH an issue, they wouldn't have been able to name them "The Redskins" in the first place. People are becoming more and more sensitive by the minute. I mean, I get it...but then again I don't. When I hear "Redskins" I think of the football team and the football team only. I guess I'm not all into racial names and such, though...but still.

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Post Re: REDSKINS name
Cliff wrote:
Well the "N-word" was originally neutral. It was just a variation of the Spanish word "Negro" mispronounced by Southerns. So why not have the Washington N*****s? I know a lot of black people that don't take offense to the word ... heck, I hear lots of black people refer to each other as that word.


I hear this argument a lot. And as a white person, I think the word is offensive no matter what. But I also understand that black people say it to each other, and are okay with it. Then you have white people thinking they can say it too, because "black people say it to each other". I disagree. The way I understand it: You have to be black to say it. :) There are certain words that groups of people "own" so to speak. People within those groups can say them to each other (but still probably shouldn't), but when an outsider says them...9 times out of 10 it's to be an a-hole. That's where the problem comes from.

I'm not sure how this relates to the Redskins thing, because up until recently...I had no idea it had to do with anything racist! Shows how much I know! I don't pay attention to ridiculousness!

I DO still think people are far too sensitive, but I suppose I can see how some people could find it offensive. With that said, I just think it's probably too late in the game to change it now. It should have been addressed decades ago.

Here's an idea: Don't watch the Redskins if you don't like the name. Give up on football altogether if you have to! Get the point across! :thumbsup: Show that disgusting organization what's up!

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Post Re: REDSKINS name
MelanieMFunk wrote:

I agree. And I just feel like if this was SUCH an issue, they wouldn't have been able to name them "The Redskins" in the first place.


And that is exactly what Alexie is talking about when he says that Natives have no power in our culture. It's less true today than when the Redskins first got their name...but's it's still true.

The more I understand the issue I see that it's not the words that offend. It's the misrepresentation of native culture that all the symbols and caricatures represent. There aren't many modern Native American role models. Crazy Horse, Geronimo, Sitting Bull? That's not reality to kids growing up on the Rez.


Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:18 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
The Breeze wrote:
MelanieMFunk wrote:

I agree. And I just feel like if this was SUCH an issue, they wouldn't have been able to name them "The Redskins" in the first place.


And that is exactly what Alexie is talking about when he says that Natives have no power in our culture. It's less true today than when the Redskins first got their name...but's it's still true.

The more I understand the issue I see that it's not the words that offend. It's the misrepresentation of native culture that all the symbols and caricatures represent. There aren't many modern Native American role models. Crazy Horse, Geronimo, Sitting Bull? That's not reality to kids growing up on the Rez.


Yeah. Admittedly, I don't know a whole lot about the issue. I don't think the Redskins should have to change their name because of a handful of people getting upset about it. But if they do...oh well. It doesn't affect me any. I just don't see it happening. That's all. If it was going to happen, I think it would have happened long ago. Not that, "Well...it's been this way for so long. We're just used to it. It's okay. It's fine. Get over it." is a great excuse or reasoning...but I think that's how it's going to go down.

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Post Re: REDSKINS name
MelanieMFunk wrote:

Yeah. Admittedly, I don't know a whole lot about the issue. I don't think the Redskins should have to change their name because of a handful of people getting upset about it. But if they do...oh well. It doesn't affect me any. I just don't see it happening. That's all. If it was going to happen, I think it would have happened long ago. Not that, "Well...it's been this way for so long. We're just used to it. It's okay. It's fine. Get over it." is a great excuse or reasoning...but I think that's how it's going to go down.

I don't see a name change either, because that wouldn't solve the problem anyway. It's a point of reference to bring up the bigger issues that are difficult to deal with.

So, I think that it being talked about is cool, because there will always be those people who learn more about the actual history as a result.


Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:40 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
The Breeze wrote:
MelanieMFunk wrote:

I agree. And I just feel like if this was SUCH an issue, they wouldn't have been able to name them "The Redskins" in the first place.


And that is exactly what Alexie is talking about when he says that Natives have no power in our culture. It's less true today than when the Redskins first got their name...but's it's still true.

The more I understand the issue I see that it's not the words that offend. It's the misrepresentation of native culture that all the symbols and caricatures represent. There aren't many modern Native American role models. Crazy Horse, Geronimo, Sitting Bull? That's not reality to kids growing up on the Rez.


Exactly.

The problem isn't that "Red Skin" is the worst possible thing you could say to a Native American, In my opinion. It's a reminder that their voices aren't loud enough in this country to merit the consideration. It would never be appropriate to have a "minor" racial slur as a team logo for Jewish people or black people in this country, for example.

A team named the "BlackSkins" with an African warrior made up in "black face" as a mascot wouldn't stand up ... even if it had been around the last 80 years. Even though "BlackSkin" isn't even a real racial slur and "RedSkin" is.

The only difference is that American Indians don't have a real voice ... and that's the slap in the face to those offended.

At least that seems to be the case.

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Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:54 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
MelanieMFunk wrote:
The Breeze wrote:
My feeling is that it requires the measure of intent when we are just talking about words used in conversation. But as to team names a national symbols it is different for reasons not so obvious. I don't believe the Washington Redskin name is an attempt to marginalize or offend...rather the opposite, it's a symbol of pride.


I agree. And I just feel like if this was SUCH an issue, they wouldn't have been able to name them "The Redskins" in the first place.


You have to keep the time period in context. They were renamed from the Boston Braves to the Boston Redskins in 1933. To put that in perspective, the Civil Rights Act was not passed until 1964, over three decades later.


Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:37 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
The Breeze wrote:
I don't believe the Washington Redskin name is an attempt to marginalize or offend...rather the opposite, it's a symbol of pride.


While that may be the case today, you might want to read up on Redskins founder George Preston Marshall before believing that's been the case throughout their history, which would include the original naming of the team. Marshall was very much a racist and was the reason the Redskins were the last NFL team to integrate, only doing so after DC threatened to pull the lease on RFK.


Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:03 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
glg wrote:
The Breeze wrote:
I don't believe the Washington Redskin name is an attempt to marginalize or offend...rather the opposite, it's a symbol of pride.


While that may be the case today, you might want to read up on Redskins founder George Preston Marshall before believing that's been the case throughout their history, which would include the original naming of the team. Marshall was very much a racist and was the reason the Redskins were the last NFL team to integrate, only doing so after DC threatened to pull the lease on RFK.



I know about Marshall's racism as it's well documented. I did a little search and interestingly enough, the Redskins first head coach was named Lone Star Dietz who claimed to be part Sioux Indian. So, while Marshall had no love for African-Americans it's entirely possible he had genuine admiration for Native Americans. I don't think anyone would name their team something they didn't like just to show hostility to an entire culture of people.

I think ,in a lot of ways, Anglo-Americans have a deep respect for the strength of Native cultures because their own cultures are so fractured.....and guilt laden. But that's just like, my opinion,...man

Anyway, the wiki page I found Lone Star Dietz on also had this to say about the "proud symbol vs racial sterotype" debate:

Quote:
There is much debate whether the use of the word Redskin is acceptable as a name for a sports team. Clarence Page of the Orlando Sentinel wrote in 1992 "[The Washington Redskins] are the only big time professional sports team whose name is an unequivocal racial slur. After all, how would we react if the team was named the Washington Negroes? Or the Washington Jews? ... It is more than just a racial reference, it is a racial epithet." Larry Dolan, owner of the Cleveland Indians, has criticized the Redskins' team name during a discussion of his own team's controversial Native American logo, Chief Wahoo.[3] According to Dolan, "if we were the Redskins, the day after I owned the team the name would have been changed".[3]

The unofficial mascot of the team is an African American man, Zema Williams (aka Chief Zee), who has attended games since 1978 dressed in a red faux Indian costume complete with feathered war bonnet and tomahawk. It is not unusual for other fans to attend games in similar costume.[4]

Many others believe that the name is a positive reference to the culture of Native Americans. Many Redskins fans say that it is a reference to the strength and courage of Native Americans. Some scholars counteract this argument by saying that any stereotype, whether positive or negative, is a hindrance to the advancement of a group. Scott B. Vickers quotes Susan Harjo "the use of any stereotype in the portrayal of Indians is considered ... to be contributory to their dehumanization and deracination."

The stereotyping of Native Americans must be understood in the context of history which includes conquest, forced relocation, and organized efforts to eradicate native cultures, such as the boarding schools of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, which separated young Native Americans from their families in order educate them as Euro-Americans.[5] "Since the first Europeans made landfall in North America, native peoples have suffered under a weltering array of stereotypes, misconceptions and caricatures. Whether portrayed as noble savages, ignoble savages, teary-eyed environmentalists or, most recently, simply as casino-rich, native peoples find their efforts to be treated with a measure of respect and integrity undermined by images that flatten complex tribal, historical and personal experience into one-dimensional representations that tells us more about the depicters than about the depicted." [6](Carter Meland (Anishinaabe heritage) and David E. Wilkins (Lumbee) are professors of American Indian Studies at the University of Minnesota)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington ... ontroversy

What I find fascinating is that the real issue isn't the name of a team, it's the complete lack of respect for Native's in general. Imagine the outrage for a name like the Mississippi Cottonpickers, or The Tennessee Tar-babys. It would be completely unacceptable to even suggest such a thing because everyone is now taught how wrong slavery/racism is/was and affirmative action/Rooney rule and all that.....Yet no one in our Government has ever even bothered apologizing to the Native Americans for what amounts too attempted genocide and long list of broken treaties. And to top it off, capitalists, protected by that same government, are given the right to use their conquered image...like an animal head above the fireplace.

I know it's said that it's a minority who have expressed being offended...but I think most should be offended at what has become of our indigenous people. But they aren't cause they aren't ed-ja-macated. I tell people who want to go visit a 3rd world country to just visit Pine Ridge or the Navajo Nation.

anyway...enough ranting. This topic gets me worked up.


Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:37 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
Well I dont think any native american would like to be called a redskin sooooooooooo. I remember a while back some native americans were trying to get the NFL to get the Skins to change their name but failed. I do agree now in this generation, that Redskins name isn't meant for racism but you have to look at it from the Native American shoes. Just like joking. Everyone loves to joke but when the joke is on you it's not that funny to you anymore.

And that's probably how they feel about the Redskins name. The term Redskins was already a racial slur when the word first came about. But hey nothing to do about it now huh? Plus the Redskins have so much history with that name that changing it won't be the same for the team.


Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:23 am
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
This reminds me of the Chris Rock bit:

http://youtu.be/AQRTirco4Mg

(NSFW: Language)


Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:46 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
This is just White Elitism. "White Man's Burden" stuff. White people get to take this goofy, token stance about a child's game and pretend that they are "uplifting the savages" that they nearly exterminated.

Meanwhile, almost every Indian I've talked about Chiefs, Braves and Redskins as names doesn't care about it.

The offensive mascot stuff is at the height of its stupidity on college campus where uptight people in power take away a purportedly disgraceful mascot...
And 80+ percent of the campus immediately wants it back.

It all ends with a lame bird or cat mascot. Would you like to watch the Washington Leopards or the Washington Purple Grosbeaks?


Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:27 am
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
Unfortunately this engine will keep gaining steam year after year, team after team. Some will succumb, and many people will continue to allow themselves the wear the "victim" skin.

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Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:03 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
personally, I have a general rule of thumb in regards to stuff like this. I don't take offense to much myself. I have thick skin and very little bothers me. that said, I am a white male. I haven't lived in the shoes of any other race or faced any type of discrimination really. I just think it is poor taste to tell other people what they should and should not be offended about. if a large group of native americans says that this word is discrimatory and it offends them...who the hell am I to tell them, "no it's not and no it doesn't".

now, i'm not saying that any time a group complains about something the powers that be need to change. but I always find it amusing that people are so opinionated that they feel they can tell others what to think. do people think this group of native americans is just making things up and they are not truly bothered by the word? are they just complaining to complain?

I guess I think that in 2013 we need to be smarter and more accepting of everyone. is this a battle really worth fighting? with all the terrible crap that goes on every day i'd like to see people picking their battles better. and this goes for both sides. but if someone says that they are offended by something, I think they deserve the respect that they truly are offended and not just making up reasons to complain.

:confused:

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Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:16 pm
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Post Re: REDSKINS name
Impressive proposal for Washington name change: http://www.behance.net/gallery/Washingt ... l/11458543

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Post Re: REDSKINS name
dead_poet wrote:
Impressive proposal for Washington name change: http://www.behance.net/gallery/Washingt ... l/11458543


I like it. Curious to see how this all plays out. It's not going away, that's for sure.

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Post Re: REDSKINS name
I have very simplistic way of viewing this. If it wouldn't be a socially acceptable suggestion tomorrow, we shouldn't accept it as tradition today. In other words, if we live in a world where nobody would dare suggest the name Redskins for a new team, why do we accept it as a name for an existing team? Things change, so should that Team Name.


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Post Re: REDSKINS name
nightowl wrote:
I have very simplistic way of viewing this. If it wouldn't be a socially acceptable suggestion tomorrow, we shouldn't accept it as tradition today. In other words, if we live in a world where nobody would dare suggest the name Redskins for a new team, why do we accept it as a name for an existing team? Things change, so should that Team Name.



Yeah it is striking to me how every argument for this usually breaks down into either A) grandfathering it in. B) anecdotal references to personally knowing .001% of the native population isn't offended.


I'll just toss out my two cents. I went to school in Bemidji. Not only are there a lot of Native Americans up there. They have a strong sense of national pride, thanks in part to places like Red Lake and leaders like Winona LaDuke. All of the Native Americans I knew up there thought it was a stupid ignorant name. They were smart enough not to be offended by it but didn't get why people clung to a racial profiling tool as name for a team.


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Post Re: REDSKINS name
hibbingviking wrote:
could be embarrassing worse changing the name to something stupid like the new Orleans pelicans.


Well, see that actually makes sense because...apparently there are a lot of Pelicans down there. The brown pelican is the state bird of Louisianna. Makes more sense than some of the ridiculous mascot/location mismatches like Utah Jazz, Cincinnati Bengals, Detroit Lions, LA LAKERS, the list goes on and on...

So, if they're going to change it (which seems inevitable at this point), they should go something that's authentic and fits the Washington DC area. Maybe one of these:

Washington Windbags
Washington Snakes
Washington Do-Littles
Washington Shutdowns
Washington Embarrassments


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