mike pettine is an idiot

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slapnut19
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mike pettine is an idiot

Post by slapnut19 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:58 pm

do you really want to talk smack about the hottest qb in the league right now when you are about to travel to his house with johnny f'n football as your ammunition? this quote is priceless:

Would you put him there with the guys that can transcend their supporting cast? The [Tom] Bradys, whether it’s Aaron Rodgers, [Drew] Brees, [Ben] Roethlisberger, the ones that you would consider the two, three, four elite guys? No. But he’s certainly played himself into that next tier,” Pettine said, via ESPN.com


has he even watched these guys play lately? brady is that type of qb for sure, but has rodgers really "transcended" his supporting cast this season? has brees looked half as good without graham? wilson is throwing 4 and 5 tds a game to guys like doug baldwin and a rookie tyler lockett. if anyone has transcended their cast it's wilson for sure.


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... f-nfl-qbs/
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Re: mike pettine is an idiot

Post by Jordysghost » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:35 am

slapnut19 wrote:do you really want to talk smack about the hottest qb in the league right now when you are about to travel to his house with johnny f'n football as your ammunition? this quote is priceless:

Would you put him there with the guys that can transcend their supporting cast? The [Tom] Bradys, whether it’s Aaron Rodgers, [Drew] Brees, [Ben] Roethlisberger, the ones that you would consider the two, three, four elite guys? No. But he’s certainly played himself into that next tier,” Pettine said, via ESPN.com


has he even watched these guys play lately? brady is that type of qb for sure, but has rodgers really "transcended" his supporting cast this season? has brees looked half as good without graham? wilson is throwing 4 and 5 tds a game to guys like doug baldwin and a rookie tyler lockett. if anyone has transcended their cast it's wilson for sure.


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... f-nfl-qbs/
Whether or not you feel all those guys are transcending their supporting cast this season, they all have in the Past, and in the case of Rodgers and Brady, they are all time statistical greats. And yea, I think Rodgers definitely transcended his cast this season, look at his statline, now let it sink in that this is one of his worst career years. Brady of course is doing a whole lot with nothing.

I agree Pettine should'nt have said it, but really, he is still right, all of those guys are bona fide HOFers, Wilson isn't, and while he still has alot to prove, and he clearly is a very good player, nothing about his statline implies that he is on par with guys like Rodgers, Brady or Brees, not currently, and not ever in his career to this point..
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slapnut19
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Re: mike pettine is an idiot

Post by slapnut19 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:56 am

i guess i judge qbs on more than stats. i could care less about rodgers stat lines look like this year. he isn't the same dynamic qb without a great receiver(nelson). i watch a lot of packer games and i'd say the defense and running game held that team together this season, not aaron. stat wise he's up there with brady, but brady can truly take an underwhelming group of skill positions a lot farther than rodgers or brees for that matter.

when it comes to elite qbs that i would late in the season or the playoffs it's brady and wilson and it's not even close.
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Re: mike pettine is an idiot

Post by Jordysghost » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:19 am

slapnut19 wrote:i guess i judge qbs on more than stats. i could care less about rodgers stat lines look like this year. he isn't the same dynamic qb without a great receiver(nelson). i watch a lot of packer games and i'd say the defense and running game held that team together this season, not aaron. stat wise he's up there with brady, but brady can truly take an underwhelming group of skill positions a lot farther than rodgers or brees for that matter.

when it comes to elite qbs that i would late in the season or the playoffs it's brady and wilson and it's not even close.
Every single WR of Rodgers has dealt with a lingering injury, one not having played since week 7, and we were down to 1 starter on the O line not long ago. Pinning this all on Nelsons injury is ridiculous, he was one of many factors. Our entire run game went to #### and the severity of injuries in our WR core has taken there toll.

With those facts in mind it is incredible to me that Rodgers still has the stellar statline that he does, our offense is still top 12.

Youl get no argument from me in regards to this season, Brady has done great, and I completely believe that Rodgers is having an off year, but career wise I think Brady has had far more to work with then Rodgers, without any doubt, and Bradys on field production career wise still pales far in comparison to Rodgers, like not even close. It seems odd you seem to act as if the Packers or especially the Saints have been more all around talented then the Patriots, because I completely disagree, Brady has had far more to work with then All of them including Peyton Manning, Wilson rode an alltime great D to a SB win, he is good but lets not pretend he deserves to be in this conversation with HOFers.

Rodgers also has the second highest postseason passer rating in NFL history, right after Bart Starr.
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Re: mike pettine is an idiot

Post by slapnut19 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:32 am

Jordysghost wrote: Every single WR of Rodgers has dealt with a lingering injury, one not having played since week 7, and we were down to 1 starter on the O line not long ago. Pinning this all on Nelsons injury is ridiculous, he was one of many factors. Our entire run game went to #### and the severity of injuries in our WR core has taken there toll.

With those facts in mind it is incredible to me that Rodgers still has the stellar statline that he does, our offense is still top 12.

Youl get no argument from me in regards to this season, Brady has done great, and I completely believe that Rodgers is having an off year, but career wise I think Brady has had far more to work with then Rodgers, without any doubt, and Bradys on field production career wise still pales far in comparison to Rodgers, like not even close. It seems odd you seem to act as if the Packers or especially the Saints have been more all around talented then the Patriots, because I completely disagree, Brady has had far more to work with then All of them including Peyton Manning, Wilson rode an alltime great D to a SB win, he is good but lets not pretend he deserves to be in this conversation with HOFers.

Rodgers also has the second highest postseason passer rating in NFL history, right after Bart Starr.


like i said it's not just about stats. how many big playoff wins has rodgers had since 2010? to me he is peyton version 2.0 when it gets to playoff time.

and when it comes to all around offensive skill talent the packers are ahead of where the pats have been. not sure how you can't see that. jennings a few years back, nelson, cobb, lacy, etc. i see gronk and edelman for the pats and that's about it the past few years.
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Re: mike pettine is an idiot

Post by Jordysghost » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:50 am

slapnut19 wrote:

like i said it's not just about stats. how many big playoff wins has rodgers had since 2010? to me he is peyton version 2.0 when it gets to playoff time.

and when it comes to all around offensive skill talent the packers are ahead of where the pats have been. not sure how you can't see that. jennings a few years back, nelson, cobb, lacy, etc. i see gronk and edelman for the pats and that's about it the past few years.
Peyton has a god awful passer rating in the postseason, whether or not you think the Packers have succeeded enough in the playoffs it still doesn't dispute that the on field production points to that being a more organisational problem, and not Rodgers, again, he has the 2nd highest postseason passer rating in NFL history. I could offer my own opinion that we would have without any doubt have made the SB had Rodgers not been injured in week 17 of last year, and while I think there is more then enough to support that opinion, it is just my opinion.



As to Bradys supporting cast, i was thinking mainly pre 2008, but looking at it now Bradys Defenses are still consistently ranked higher then Rodgers, and Brady also has had top 10 O line for the majority of his career, Rodgers has had bottom 5 o lines for most of his, and yet, despite all that, since Aaron Rodgers (From 2008 onward) took over, the only organisation in the NFL that rivals the Patriots in consistent success, is the Packers.

Keep in mind, I am not making any determination on who Rodgers is or isn't better than right now, I am simply pointing out that the on field production points to Rodgers being far, far, far, far above Peytons level of play in the playoffs, Peyton didn't even have a good postseason when he won the SB.
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Re: mike pettine is an idiot

Post by TeddyBaller » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:21 pm

slapnut19 wrote:do you really want to talk smack about the hottest qb in the league right now when you are about to travel to his house with johnny f'n football as your ammunition? this quote is priceless:

Would you put him there with the guys that can transcend their supporting cast? The [Tom] Bradys, whether it’s Aaron Rodgers, [Drew] Brees, [Ben] Roethlisberger, the ones that you would consider the two, three, four elite guys? No. But he’s certainly played himself into that next tier,” Pettine said, via ESPN.com


has he even watched these guys play lately? brady is that type of qb for sure, but has rodgers really "transcended" his supporting cast this season? has brees looked half as good without graham? wilson is throwing 4 and 5 tds a game to guys like doug baldwin and a rookie tyler lockett. if anyone has transcended their cast it's wilson for sure.


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... f-nfl-qbs/

Yes, yes i understand your frustration. Pettine and the browns thought that same as many "confused" nfl fans, that the defense and running games made qb like cam newton and russell wilson look good. Now that lynch, and jimmy graham are gone we are seeing you could plug any runningback in seattles offense, and the read option will work. Seattle's Offense is dangerous because of wilson's legs and his ability to extend plays. Same with Cam Newton.. they went out and drafted some hypejob in manziel who is not as good as wilson, but because they were both short.. people thought it would work,.... wilson, teddy, cam, tyrod, rodgers, winston, mariota these guys have talent... manziel does not

I think if the vikings got rid of adrian peterson, and made this teddy's team like his rookie year.. Teddy would flourish... teddy has russell wilson like traits, lynch and adrain peterson demand the ball almost every down which messes up the rythm of wilson, thats why wilson and teddy only throw for less than 200 yards when those runningbacks where in the lineup... if you let teddy bridgewater, be teddy he would throw for 300 yard games too... like his rookie year, also getting rid of norv turner who i think is ruining teddy like he tried to do to phillip rivers lol would help
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Re: mike pettine is an idiot

Post by TeddyBaller » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:24 pm

Jordysghost wrote: Whether or not you feel all those guys are transcending their supporting cast this season, they all have in the Past, and in the case of Rodgers and Brady, they are all time statistical greats. And yea, I think Rodgers definitely transcended his cast this season, look at his statline, now let it sink in that this is one of his worst career years. Brady of course is doing a whole lot with nothing.

I agree Pettine should'nt have said it, but really, he is still right, all of those guys are bona fide HOFers, Wilson isn't, and while he still has alot to prove, and he clearly is a very good player, nothing about his statline implies that he is on par with guys like Rodgers, Brady or Brees, not currently, and not ever in his career to this point..
brady looked lost without gronkoski... imagine brady or rodgers throwing 5 td's with the weapons on the outside that cam and wilson have RIGHT NOW... i cant see it, so in a sense they are transcending their talent
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Re: mike pettine is an idiot

Post by TeddyBaller » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:25 pm

slapnut19 wrote:

like i said it's not just about stats. how many big playoff wins has rodgers had since 2010? to me he is peyton version 2.0 when it gets to playoff time.

and when it comes to all around offensive skill talent the packers are ahead of where the pats have been. not sure how you can't see that. jennings a few years back, nelson, cobb, lacy, etc. i see gronk and edelman for the pats and that's about it the past few years.

good point, and big ben lost a playoff game to tim tebow
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Re: mike pettine is an idiot

Post by Demi » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:02 pm

I'm glad more coaches are willing to shoot straight. He gave an honest, and seems like pretty good, answer to the question. Instead of the normal line of "Wow he's amazing. Hard to defend. Does the little things right. Good mechanics blah blah blah" you usually get out of these guys.

And honestly, if you were going into this game with Johnny Football would you really care either way? He's coaching one of the worst franchises in the history of sports in a can't win game in a meaningless season. :lol:
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Re: mike pettine is an idiot

Post by Raptorman » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:11 am

Jordysghost wrote:Every single WR of Rodgers has dealt with a lingering injury, one not having played since week 7, and we were down to 1 starter on the O line not long ago. Pinning this all on Nelsons injury is ridiculous, he was one of many factors. Our entire run game went to #### and the severity of injuries in our WR core has taken there toll.

With those facts in mind it is incredible to me that Rodgers still has the stellar statline that he does, our offense is still top 12.

Youl get no argument from me in regards to this season, Brady has done great, and I completely believe that Rodgers is having an off year, but career wise I think Brady has had far more to work with then Rodgers, without any doubt, and Bradys on field production career wise still pales far in comparison to Rodgers, like not even close. It seems odd you seem to act as if the Packers or especially the Saints have been more all around talented then the Patriots, because I completely disagree, Brady has had far more to work with then All of them including Peyton Manning, Wilson rode an alltime great D to a SB win, he is good but lets not pretend he deserves to be in this conversation with HOFers.

Rodgers also has the second highest postseason passer rating in NFL history, right after Bart Starr.
Still harping on how Wilson is not an elite QB. Let's address some things that you talk about. Starting with how Wilson rode and all time great defense to the Super Bowl.
Opponents points and yards during Super Bowl winning season. For the heck of it, let's toss in the Packers 1996 Super Bowl season.

Code: Select all

              Points    PPG   Yards   YPG
Seattle 2013   231      14.4  4378    273.6
Packers 2010   240      15.0  4945    309.0
Packers 1996   210      13.1  4156    259.8 
Wow, look at those team defensive numbers. Wilson just a QB riding on his defense to the Super Bowl. As well as Rodgers, and Favre and Brady in 2003(14.9 ppg), 2004(16.2 ppg) and in 2014 (19.6 ppg)

Now lets take a look at how much better Rodgers and Brady were than Wilson in his first 61 games.

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        Att    Cmp  Perc.  Yards    YPA   TD's  TD%    Int   INT%    Games W/L 
Wilson  1058   1636 64.7   13,239   8.1    98   6.0     33   2.0      44-17
Rodgers 1325   2025 65.4   16,754   8.3   126   6.2     37   1.8      40-21
Brady   1215   1975 61.5   13,647   6.9    95   4.8     51   2.6      47-14
Yup, once again, Rodgers and Brady are miles ahead of Wilson. Of course Wilson has that top defense helping with his passing stats. Well we won't mention that in Brady's first 4 years the Patriots defense was 6, 17, 2, and 4 in scoring. Nothing here to indicate Wilson being a top tier QB in the NFL. I will mention that when the Packer won the SB in 2010 their offensive scoring rank was 10. When the Patriots won it last year, their offensive scoring rank was 4th. When the Seahawks won in 2013, their offensive scoring rank was 8th. Imagine that, the 2013 Seahawks scored more points, 417 than the 2010 Packers 388. But it was all on the Seattle defense. Now of course the argument will be that the Seattle defense scored in 2013. And they did. 3 td's on interceptions and one on a fumble recovery. But then in 2010, the Packers defense scored as well. 3 interceptions returns and 1 fumble return for td's. And for heck of it, Patriots in 2014, 2 blocked field goals and 2 fumbles returned of td's. But that Seattle defense.........

I know lets go to playoff passing. After all Rodgers is second only to Starr. But let's stay to the first three years of their careers.

Code: Select all

         Att    Cmp   Perc.  Yards     YPA   TD's  TD%    Int   INT%    Games W/L 
Wilson    123    202   60.9   1,820    9.0   12   5.9      6    3.0      6-2
Rodgers   117    184   67.8   1,517    8.7   13   7.5      3    1.7      4-1
Brady     135    223   60.5   1,364    6.1    6   2.7      3    1.3      6-0
Rodgers does do better here. Except for the fact that in his first three years the Packers only made the playoffs twice. But then, the Seahawks have that kick butt defense. And of Course Brady is miles ahead of Wilson here. But then the Patriots only went to the playoffs twice in Brady's first 3 years. Why? Because the defense was 17th in points given up in his second year as a starter.

Of course Wilson is just a game manager riding his defense to the playoffs. These numbers don't include week 15 of the 2015 season. Wilson threw 3 more TD's in that game. Becoming the First NFL QB to throw at least 3 TD's in 5 games in a row. Brady never did it. Favre never did it. Rodgers never did. But damn that Seattle defense helping him throw those TD's. He's good. But no where near elite. Just an overpaid average QB.
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Re: mike pettine is an idiot

Post by Jordysghost » Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:29 am

Raptorman wrote: Still harping on how Wilson is not an elite QB. Let's address some things that you talk about. Starting with how Wilson rode and all time great defense to the Super Bowl.
Opponents points and yards during Super Bowl winning season. For the heck of it, let's toss in the Packers 1996 Super Bowl season.

Code: Select all

              Points    PPG   Yards   YPG
Seattle 2013   231      14.4  4378    273.6
Packers 2010   240      15.0  4945    309.0
Packers 1996   210      13.1  4156    259.8 
Wow, look at those team defensive numbers. Wilson just a QB riding on his defense to the Super Bowl. As well as Rodgers, and Favre and Brady in 2003(14.9 ppg), 2004(16.2 ppg) and in 2014 (19.6 ppg)

Now lets take a look at how much better Rodgers and Brady were than Wilson in his first 61 games.

Code: Select all

        Att    Cmp  Perc.  Yards    YPA   TD's  TD%    Int   INT%    Games W/L 
Wilson  1058   1636 64.7   13,239   8.1    98   6.0     33   2.0      44-17
Rodgers 1325   2025 65.4   16,754   8.3   126   6.2     37   1.8      40-21
Brady   1215   1975 61.5   13,647   6.9    95   4.8     51   2.6      47-14
Yup, once again, Rodgers and Brady are miles ahead of Wilson. Of course Wilson has that top defense helping with his passing stats. Well we won't mention that in Brady's first 4 years the Patriots defense was 6, 17, 2, and 4 in scoring. Nothing here to indicate Wilson being a top tier QB in the NFL. I will mention that when the Packer won the SB in 2010 their offensive scoring rank was 10. When the Patriots won it last year, their offensive scoring rank was 4th. When the Seahawks won in 2013, their offensive scoring rank was 8th. Imagine that, the 2013 Seahawks scored more points, 417 than the 2010 Packers 388. But it was all on the Seattle defense. Now of course the argument will be that the Seattle defense scored in 2013. And they did. 3 td's on interceptions and one on a fumble recovery. But then in 2010, the Packers defense scored as well. 3 interceptions returns and 1 fumble return for td's. And for heck of it, Patriots in 2014, 2 blocked field goals and 2 fumbles returned of td's. But that Seattle defense.........

I know lets go to playoff passing. After all Rodgers is second only to Starr. But let's stay to the first three years of their careers.

Code: Select all

         Att    Cmp   Perc.  Yards     YPA   TD's  TD%    Int   INT%    Games W/L 
Wilson    123    202   60.9   1,820    9.0   12   5.9      6    3.0      6-2
Rodgers   117    184   67.8   1,517    8.7   13   7.5      3    1.7      4-1
Brady     135    223   60.5   1,364    6.1    6   2.7      3    1.3      6-0
Rodgers does do better here. Except for the fact that in his first three years the Packers only made the playoffs twice. But then, the Seahawks have that kick butt defense. And of Course Brady is miles ahead of Wilson here. But then the Patriots only went to the playoffs twice in Brady's first 3 years. Why? Because the defense was 17th in points given up in his second year as a starter.

Of course Wilson is just a game manager riding his defense to the playoffs. These numbers don't include week 15 of the 2015 season. Wilson threw 3 more TD's in that game. Becoming the First NFL QB to throw at least 3 TD's in 5 games in a row. Brady never did it. Favre never did it. Rodgers never did. But damn that Seattle defense helping him throw those TD's. He's good. But no where near elite. Just an overpaid average QB.
Ok stop putting words in my mouth first of all.

Yes those ppg averages are comparable, but there are a lot of factors to play into that, and while I agree that 96 D should be up there (That entire team was loaded) the Seahawks D is remembered as one of the greatest of all time for a reason, and the Packers 2010 D really can't compare. The 8 ranked Seattle Offense was spearheaded by a fantastic rushing game, one of which Rodgers/Brady have never had, leading to a 20-7 TD INT ratio for Wilson, and sub 3500 yards.

Now for the first 61 games you posted, yes those are nice stats indeed, and he compares favorably to Tom Brady at least, but really, what is this proving aside from it took Brady a little while to reach elite level of play? I agree Brady was on loaded teams in NE for the brunt of his SB runs, Brady also wasn't the player he is today, or has been, during that time as well. (Which is still pretty good, just like Wilson)

Playoffs, you kind of say it yourself there, Rodgers only made it to the playoffs twice his first 3 years, his first year he was marred by a bottom 10 D, bottom 10 O line, and non existant running game, all things that Wilson has seldom had to deal with his career, on the contrary he has had quite the opposite up until this year. (And while first 61 games Aaron Rodgers would momentarily see a breif renaissance of the his teams Defensive rankings for two years, his O line and running game would remain much in similar condition., and yet the statline reads as it does)



It seems like you are misunderstanding my view on Wilson, I never said that he was 'average' nor that he did not possess the potential to be elite one day, only that he isn't elite, and going on every year of his career prior to this one, he isn't, though he is doing a decent enough job rewriting his typical level of on field production as of late, but I never claimed he wasn't.

You seem to like contextual stats, but there is no better way to make my point than pointing at his career statistics, do they look elite to you? What season of his would you consider to this point to be elite? You point to Brady's career statistics throughout his first 61 games but seem to act as if Brady's career trajectory began with him being arguably one of the best ever, which statistically isn't true. Brady became to Elite HOF player he is, just as Wilson could.

When you never throw for 4000+ yards, or 30 TDs, you are going to have a hard time convincing people that your numbers to that point are 'elite', especially when you have everything a QB could want, Top D, top RB. Now yes, Wilson is both A. Very young, and B. Already doing his best to elevate himself into this category as of this season (Which Is neither here nor there in ths specific discussion as I never once suggested or implied he wasn't on track to do so. Important to note.)
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Re: mike pettine is an idiot

Post by Raptorman » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:00 pm

Well apparently being an elite QB means you have to be able to throw 30 TD's a year and 4,000 yards. As well as not having help from the rest of the team. Which I guess means Brady didn't become elite until his 7 year as a QB. Because he never threw more than 30 TDs until Randy Moss showed up. But than Wilson, well he should surpass both those marks by the end of this season. I do always love the fact that the target keeps changing with Wilson. First he's not elite because of his defense. Then he's not elite because he hasn't thrown for 4,000 yards and 30 tds, or the fact that they have a good running game. Never mind that part of that running game is from him. So, at the end of the year when he has thrown 4,000 yards an 30 td's, he is either elite or not? Or will it be because of his running game, or defense, or the players around him. Moving target. He doesn't pass the eye test.

BTW, if you take out Wilson's number from the run game in 2013, they only had 1658 yards rushing without him. That vaunted rush game you talked about, well part of it was Wilson. 1658 yards would have been 21st in the league as far as rushing goes that year. Below both Green Bay(2136 yards) and New England(2065 yards). But then Wilson gets no credit for that. Matter of fact, if you take out Wilson' rushing yards over the last 4 years, the Seahawks rushing game, well it becomes worse than the Patriots or the Packers for the most part. But we won't talk about that. Because we all know elite QB's stand back in the pocket and throw for 4,000 yards and 30 TD's. Without Wilson's rushing yardage the Seahawks run game would have fallen to 9th in 2012, below the Pats. In 2013 it would have been 21st. Below both the Packers and the Pats. 2014, 12th, just below the Packers. And so far this year, they would be 15th. Again, below the Packers. But Brady and Rodgers never had the advantage that Wilson had in the run game. Wait, the Patriots run game, has averaged 1877 yards per year since Brady became the starter. That equates to about an average 12th or 13th rank in league over that time. 8 times in Brady's career the Patriots have had rushing games that eclipsed the 1800 yard mark for the year. But I am sure that is due to the Patriots running to run the clock out in garbage time.

And as far as the defense goes, let me point something out about Brady and the Patriots. Everyone thinks of Brady as elite because the Pats win so much. But the fact is, since Brady has been their starting QB, the Patriots defense has been one of the best in the league. They have held other teams to and average of 18.8 ppg since 2001(an average of 7.9 in ranking for points allowed). The odds of any QB winning when the other team is held to that number is around 75%. So while Brady may be throwing for 4,000 yards and 30+ TD's, his defense makes it pretty easy for him. Not to mention, Brady is hardly ever, pulled from a game.
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Re: mike pettine is an idiot

Post by Raptorman » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:18 pm

You know what else we don't want to mention about the Seahawks.

Average PPG on offense and defense.

Code: Select all

                  Offense ppg      Defense ppg
Before Wilson        18.8            23.5
After  Wilson        25.7            15.8   
Does having a good defense help? Yes. Just ask Brady. But I am sure the extra 7 point per game can be attributed to the defense in some way, or the run game.

TD/Int for four years before Wilson, and Wilson's the last 4 years to date.

Code: Select all

                 TD       Int
Before Wilson    65        66
After Wilson    101        33  
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Re: mike pettine is an idiot

Post by Jordysghost » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:55 pm

Raptorman wrote:Well apparently being an elite QB means you have to be able to throw 30 TD's a year and 4,000 yards. As well as not having help from the rest of the team. Which I guess means Brady didn't become elite until his 7 year as a QB. Because he never threw more than 30 TDs until Randy Moss showed up. But than Wilson, well he should surpass both those marks by the end of this season. I do always love the fact that the target keeps changing with Wilson. First he's not elite because of his defense. Then he's not elite because he hasn't thrown for 4,000 yards and 30 tds, or the fact that they have a good running game. Never mind that part of that running game is from him. So, at the end of the year when he has thrown 4,000 yards an 30 td's, he is either elite or not? Or will it be because of his running game, or defense, or the players around him. Moving target. He doesn't pass the eye test.

BTW, if you take out Wilson's number from the run game in 2013, they only had 1658 yards rushing without him. That vaunted rush game you talked about, well part of it was Wilson. 1658 yards would have been 21st in the league as far as rushing goes that year. Below both Green Bay(2136 yards) and New England(2065 yards). But then Wilson gets no credit for that. Matter of fact, if you take out Wilson' rushing yards over the last 4 years, the Seahawks rushing game, well it becomes worse than the Patriots or the Packers for the most part. But we won't talk about that. Because we all know elite QB's stand back in the pocket and throw for 4,000 yards and 30 TD's. Without Wilson's rushing yardage the Seahawks run game would have fallen to 9th in 2012, below the Pats. In 2013 it would have been 21st. Below both the Packers and the Pats. 2014, 12th, just below the Packers. And so far this year, they would be 15th. Again, below the Packers. But Brady and Rodgers never had the advantage that Wilson had in the run game. Wait, the Patriots run game, has averaged 1877 yards per year since Brady became the starter. That equates to about an average 12th or 13th rank in league over that time. 8 times in Brady's career the Patriots have had rushing games that eclipsed the 1800 yard mark for the year. But I am sure that is due to the Patriots running to run the clock out in garbage time.

And as far as the defense goes, let me point something out about Brady and the Patriots. Everyone thinks of Brady as elite because the Pats win so much. But the fact is, since Brady has been their starting QB, the Patriots defense has been one of the best in the league. They have held other teams to and average of 18.8 ppg since 2001(an average of 7.9 in ranking for points allowed). The odds of any QB winning when the other team is held to that number is around 75%. So while Brady may be throwing for 4,000 yards and 30+ TD's, his defense makes it pretty easy for him. Not to mention, Brady is hardly ever, pulled from a game.
Total rushing yards has alot of factors involved with it, comparing the YPG averages between Lynch and the Packers/Patriots RBs would be far more appropriate, would you not agree?

I certainly never changed the target of which Wilson needs to hit to be considered elite, sounds like a personal matter of perception on your part, nor did I ever state 'you cant have help from the team', but I really would like to ask what season prior to maybe this one of Wilsons would you consider 'Elite'? Seriously.
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"Follow my lead today, whos goona be the big dog with me?" - Aaron Rodgers, February 6th, 2011

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