View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:23 am



Reply to topic  [ 170 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 More New England Cheating? 
Author Message
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Posts: 5616
Location: The Great White North
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
First of all, I couldn't give two schicks what anybody else in pro football thinks. This isn't a theory. It is a physical fact. Don't believe me?


Believe it or not, I actually *do* get what you are saying and, within limits of the physics, *do* agree it could explain under-inflated balls.

What I am trying to say is, why does Tom Brady or Bill Belichek need to explain 9th grade physics to anyone to say that is what might have happened, especially if, as you are proposing, it was done intentionally by Brady or someone Brady told to do it? Why not just say hey, the balls were inflated to spec when tested before the game and the cold must have caused them to lose pressure when brought outside.

Also, as I understand it, your theory is actually testable, and testable by the NFL itself provided someone records pressure readings for both sets of balls used. The Colts also had a set tested before and at halftime. The balls used by the Colts also went from inside to outside and spent the exact same amount of time in both conditions as those used by the Pats. So it stands to reason based on physics that whatever happened to one set of balls due to the ideal gas law must have happened to the other set of balls. All they would have to do is look at how much pressure the balls used by the Colts lost over that same amount of time. If it is enough to explain the readings they got from the balls used by the Patriots, then I'd say that is the explanation and, as you point out, the Pats technically did nothing wrong as the rule only states an acceptable range of inflation at the time the balls are tested prior to the game.

But if the balls used by the Colts didn't lose enough to explain the readings in the balls used by the Pats, then PV=nRT doesn't explain what was seen.

It's actually a very testable hypothesis provided someone records the readings.


Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:38 am
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Posts: 5616
Location: The Great White North
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
Raptorman wrote:
Maybe not just an opinion. Click on the link, and watch the video. Three people checking out the difference in ball psi and what it means. Then read the article on the Pats lack of fumbles since 2007. Very interesting.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... 3Fp%3D2932


This is the exact thing I was referring to earlier regarding the Pats and the willingness of a lot of people to just take it at face value that they are so much better at things over a long period of time without any additional "help", seen or unseen. They were caught cheating once and very well could be again here, and who knows how many other things they've managed to get away with that still haven't come to light?


Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:53 am
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:14 pm
Posts: 4016
Location: So. Utah
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
No offense, but the "I feel cheated" argument is a very sanctimonious point of view that is also completely irrelevant. How you feel has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual rule. And it's not a technicality of physics. It's a scientific fact. The air pressure in a football will drop if the temperature drops.
I understand that it's a fact. Most people who play with basketballs and footballs outdoors understand this by 12-13 yrs. At least I did. I don't feel that my opinion is at all irrelevant much less completely. I root for the Patriots to win and then find out that through a technicality about the way a specific rule is enforced knowingly gives them a competitive advantage on the playing field (and I'm not saying that's exactly what happened but following your original example) an advantage that to me is uncertain but it is a rule and other people have said it does create a specific advantage....and is quite possibly an act they've been pulling during winter home games for years now. They are cheating the other team and the fans who are invested with the belief that something as simple as the football is not being doctored/altered in any way for an advantage.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
For the record, your example is way, way off base. In your scenario, both players broke the rules. One player happened to not realize it, while the other didn't get caught. My whole point is that no one has proven the Patriots broke any rule here. Simply turning in footballs that are inflated to 12.5 psi is not a rules violation. In fact, by the rule's very definition, it's the opposite.

My example was to suggest that even if the Patriots didn't truly understand that by gametime their balls would be under the legal limit they are still gaining a competitive edge as a result and should be corrected.
If the Patriots did as you said: had the balls inspected at a certain temperature knowing the the change in temp would create illegal balls, then in my opinion they broke the spirit of the rule which is put in place to prevent that from happening. Again like my first comment regarding your original post, "Intention". They intended to cheat and they did if it unfolded the way you suggested.
I think you are blurring the line between what the rule is about and how the league has chosen to enforce it. Enforcement of the rule is flawed as the Patriots have shown and they have shown that they are willing to cheat if they think they can get away with it. In this case they have gotten away with it because no one in their right mind is going to willingly admit that what was done was intentional. It's impossible to prove their intent but it's quite obvious using your example as a case scenario. You applaud that, I don't. I find that at this level of competition with what's at stake in a title game that there is no room for that kind of BS. I find it unsportsmanlike. I'm probably in the minority. I find myself less inclined to root for them as a result...more like hoping they get the $$%^ kicked out of them on sunday. I have never felt that way about the Pats before, unless they are playing the Vikes.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
And by the way, why are you letting the refs off the hook? It's their job to ensure the balls are legal. That's why teams are required to turn them in 2 hours and 15 minutes before game time. If the balls were under inflated, the officials should have taken them back to the Patriots and made them fix them.
When they were alerted to it they did so.
I think the way they have the rule set up is completely stupid, if there is that much of an advantage involved. Either let teams have what ever pressure they want or pick one universal number and have the officials or some official body be in charge.

I think that it's possible the current regime in NE puts winning above integrity. I don't need the league office or the officials to prove or point that out to me because I don't think they feel it's in their best interest...which is another integrity issue IMO.

As for a golf analogy: any golfer tampering with a ball to gain an advantage would be cheating IMO.

I can't support, although I surely can believe it, when professionals hid behind the language of poorly enforced rule to cheat. To me it's the equivalent of a corporation using an offshore account to avoid paying their fair share of taxes. I might expect something like this out of a lessor team like a Detroit or Cleveland...but the fact that it's the premiere franchise of the league and not the first time they have been cast in this light really sucks to me and for the league.

Again my opinion in this vein is based upon the Patriots knowingly creating an unfair advantage for themselves, which has yet to be proven and most likely can't be.


Last edited by The Breeze on Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:14 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:14 pm
Posts: 4016
Location: So. Utah
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
And Breeze, you didn't answer my question. Did Tiger Woods cheat by moving the boulder?

He certainly gained a competitive advantage.


I'm not sure that example fits this scenario, but I don't consider that cheating as I don't imagine it would be difficult for any pro golfer to enlist the help of spectators in such a situation.

In fact I can't think of another example that fits this one exactly. What the NFL does in terms of allowing teams to furnish their own balls is kind of awkward IMO.
Baseball would be the one sport where you might have a similar possibility, but umpires are constantly checking the state of the balls and eliminating any advantage a pitcher might get.


Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:32 pm
Profile
Commissioner

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:24 pm
Posts: 23761
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/12202450/nfl-says-new-england-patriots-had-inflated-footballs-afc-championship-game

Quote:
ESPN Sports Radio 810 in Kansas City reported that the Patriots' footballs were tested at the half, reinflated at that time when they were found to be low, then put back in play for the second half, and then tested again after the game. The report did not reveal the results of the test following the game. All of the balls the Colts used met standards, according to the report.


Also reports the Ravens were the ones that let the Colts know it may be an issue.

Patriots cheated, got caught. Why the need to make excuses for them? To claim it had no affect on the game? If it wasn't an issue, there wouldn't be a rule, and the Patriots wouldn't be doing it. (And they wouldn't have made the push in the first place)

NFL needs to take full control over all game balls and not let either team have access to them outside of play...


Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:10 pm
Profile
Commissioner

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:24 pm
Posts: 23761
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/dungy-nfl-needs-to-restrict-new-englands-substitution-game/

Dungy: NFL needs to restrict New England’s substitution game]

:lol: Guy tried to be all diplomatic early on about it. Until he realizes, hey, they broke the rules!

Quote:
Lost amid the furor over #DeflateGate is New England’s newfound penchant for playing the ineligible-eligible receiver game. Whether it’s a player wearing an ineligible number reporting as an eligible receiver or a player wearing an eligible number reporting as an ineligible receiver, the Patriots have begun aggressively using the tactic in an obvious effort to confuse defenses regarding who will be running a pass route and who won’t be.

“The NFL is going to have to do something about the Patriots’ ineligible-eligible substitution game,” former NFL head coach and current NBC Sports analyst Tony Dungy told PFT by email on Friday. “It is nothing but an intent to deceive and they are doing it very well. They’re reporting so fast and going so quickly the defense can’t respond. In fact, the officials can’t keep up.”

Dungy believes the officials missed at least one foul with this maneuver during the postseason.

“In the Baltimore game, [Shane] Vereen reported as ineligible several times,” Dungy explained. “If he stays in the game he must report again and continue to be ineligible. He must come out of the game for one play or there has to be a time out for him to play as an eligible receiver. On the touchdown drive Vereen played one play as ineligible and then played the next play in an eligible position. There should have been a penalty.”


You saw it in the LT TD pass. What a shady bunch of crap. They can't get a ring anymore playing by the intent of the law, so they decide to play by the letter of it. As usual. Remember, these are the scumbags that made the NFL overhaul the illegal contact/pass interference rules after they mauled the Colts receivers. How can ANYONE make excuses for this team? They're literally making the game less enjoyable to watch. But "they just try hard"? Give me a break. You can see game to game how the refs are having to adjust to all the CRAP they're pulling. :wallbang:

NFL has to rewrite rules every year for the stuff this "genius" does. A fourteen year old kid could read the rules and start abusing the intent, does that make him a genius too? Man Belicheat is a Grade A ####.


Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:00 pm
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:30 pm
Posts: 2156
Location: Minneapolis
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/ ... ticle_More

_________________
Stop being a hypocrite


Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:41 pm
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:30 pm
Posts: 2156
Location: Minneapolis
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
Demi wrote:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/dungy-nfl-needs-to-restrict-new-englands-substitution-game/

Dungy: NFL needs to restrict New England’s substitution game]

:lol: Guy tried to be all diplomatic early on about it. Until he realizes, hey, they broke the rules!

Quote:
Lost amid the furor over #DeflateGate is New England’s newfound penchant for playing the ineligible-eligible receiver game. Whether it’s a player wearing an ineligible number reporting as an eligible receiver or a player wearing an eligible number reporting as an ineligible receiver, the Patriots have begun aggressively using the tactic in an obvious effort to confuse defenses regarding who will be running a pass route and who won’t be.

“The NFL is going to have to do something about the Patriots’ ineligible-eligible substitution game,” former NFL head coach and current NBC Sports analyst Tony Dungy told PFT by email on Friday. “It is nothing but an intent to deceive and they are doing it very well. They’re reporting so fast and going so quickly the defense can’t respond. In fact, the officials can’t keep up.”

Dungy believes the officials missed at least one foul with this maneuver during the postseason.

“In the Baltimore game, [Shane] Vereen reported as ineligible several times,” Dungy explained. “If he stays in the game he must report again and continue to be ineligible. He must come out of the game for one play or there has to be a time out for him to play as an eligible receiver. On the touchdown drive Vereen played one play as ineligible and then played the next play in an eligible position. There should have been a penalty.”


You saw it in the LT TD pass. What a shady bunch of crap. They can't get a ring anymore playing by the intent of the law, so they decide to play by the letter of it. As usual. Remember, these are the scumbags that made the NFL overhaul the illegal contact/pass interference rules after they mauled the Colts receivers. How can ANYONE make excuses for this team? They're literally making the game less enjoyable to watch. But "they just try hard"? Give me a break. You can see game to game how the refs are having to adjust to all the CRAP they're pulling. :wallbang:

NFL has to rewrite rules every year for the stuff this "genius" does. A fourteen year old kid could read the rules and start abusing the intent, does that make him a genius too? Man Belicheat is a Grade A ####.


:violin:

_________________
Stop being a hypocrite


Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:47 pm
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:45 pm
Posts: 2737
Location: Hawaii
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
For the science buffs out there. A few people have commented about the temperature theory being almost impossible. Valid?
Quote:
RegisHawk says:
Jan 24, 2015 10:29 AM
Two points he missed:

1) The balls are tested by the refs after being inflated. It’s a good bet the refs don’t take the balls into a sauna to make sure they are the proper pressure. So we are still at a rough estimate of 12.5 psi at around 72 degrees Farenheit.

2) The formula referenced (pV=nRT) refers to temperature in Kelvin. For those who don’t know, Kelvin is basically Celsius with a starting point of Absolute Zero for its zero-point, which is 273.15 degrees below that for Celsius. So, in order to be 10.5 psi (roughly a 14% drop in pressure), the temperature has to drop at least 40 degrees Kelvin, which would roughly equate to at least 72 degrees Farenheit.


For the DIY guys :
Quote:
willycents says:
Jan 24, 2015 10:40 AM
|Ok. A decidedly non-scientific test just to satisfy myself.
The test: I inflated my kids 2 footballs to 13 pounds in my house. It was a shade over 72 degrees in my living room. I then placed them outside for 2 hours at a temperature initially of 9 degrees, finishing at 4 degrees, by my non-calibrated thermometers.
The result: With the same gauge I used initially, the finishing pressure was just a shade over 12.5 pounds.
The analysis: a drop of about 65 degrees in two hours results in a pressure loss of about one half pound in leather Wilson brand footballs that are about six months old.


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... footballs/

_________________
Joined: Aug 2006
Deleted: Sept 12 2014
Reborn: Sept 17 2014


Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:57 pm
Profile
Commissioner

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:24 pm
Posts: 23761
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
:roll: Coach was fined, Team was fined, lost a draft pick.

Last time they cheated

They cheated again, and got caught.

And look, another cheating scandal! What team? The same one? I bet it's just a coincidence. Wait, substitution issues, AND ball PSI issue? Aw coincidence. Play that violin. Nothing to see here. :roll:


Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:57 pm
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:30 pm
Posts: 2156
Location: Minneapolis
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
Oops

_________________
Stop being a hypocrite


Last edited by frosted on Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:08 pm
Profile
Commissioner

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:24 pm
Posts: 23761
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
I'm not mad. Just pointing out they were caught cheating and punished. And now they were caught cheating again. As well as "bending" rules. In the same post season. :confused:


Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:15 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Posts: 5616
Location: The Great White North
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
frosted wrote:
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/01/24/ravens-coach-john-harbaugh-sounds-like-man-pleading-for-forgiveness-over-deflategate/nomWQem0ynWFfq4RG27QHP/story.html?p1=Article_Related_Box_Article_More


While this doesn't surprise me, it's depressing nonetheless...

The problem isn't that the Patriots might have been cheating - the problem is that someone called them out on it and now they are inconvenienced by the truth. Classic "image protection".

There will be 1 of 2 possible outcomes to this:

A) The league will severely punish Belichek and the Patriots ala what they did to AD, thus making sure the risk calculus for getting caught changes and they don't have other teams looking to bend and twist the rules
B) They will fail to do that, thus encouraging widespread adoption of the same tactics by other teams, which will pretty much make the rules meaningless over time and possibly encourage even more blatant disregard

I saw Belichek's presser, and he's basically daring the league to do something about it. It will be interesting to see if they fold up into the fetal position like Harbaugh, or if they come down as hard and abruptly as they did against players who also spoke boldly about how they weren't sorry for what they did.


Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:26 pm
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:30 pm
Posts: 2156
Location: Minneapolis
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
Demi wrote:
I'm not mad. Just pointing out they were caught cheating and punished. And now they were caught cheating again. As well as "bending" rules. In the same post season. :confused:


Oh, sorry. That was rude.

I mean, it is what it is - maybe they're dirty old b@stards that cheat all the time, but I think it's naive to look at this as some sort of egregious activity that goes against the integrity of the game.

But everyone has the right to decide for themselves, so sorry for infringing upon that with my violin. It was mean.

The end.

_________________
Stop being a hypocrite


Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:34 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 6541
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
I'm not gonna argue on this anymore.

This has to do with New England, not the Vikings. I don't think they did anything wrong, but I'm not wasting my brain power on it any more.

Moving on to free agency and the draft.

_________________
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.


Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:42 pm
Profile
Commissioner

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:24 pm
Posts: 23761
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
It's amazing there is a clearly written rule, they broke it, and people are making excuses for them. This isn't the eligible receiver stuff, where they just found a way around a rule. They blatantly broke a rule that has zero wiggle room.
Quote:
NFL rules stipulate a game ball must be inflated to 12 ½ to 13 ½ pounds per square inch.


They had footballs under 12 1/2 psi. That were at or above 12 1/2 psi before the game when checked.

Remember all the people making excuses for spy gate? Now a team is busted for breaking a rule again and people are making excuses. Players busted for PEDs? Excuses. Beating your wife? Excuses (until the video comes out). Beating your kid? Excuses.

There are laws and rules. Teams/Players clearly break them. People don't think they should be punished for it? :confused:


Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:52 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:14 pm
Posts: 4016
Location: So. Utah
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
I watched Belichek's presser and was intrigued by how much emotion he showed. He definitely looked like he was telling the truth as far as he knew, whereas Brady, not so much.

Bill's words that I found to be the central issue in all of this:

Quote:
"At no time was there any intent whatsoever to try to compromise the integrity of the game or to gain an advantage," he said.


He certainly seems concerned about this with good reason.

I'm sure Goodell and Co. have a handle on it :rofl:


Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:08 am
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37219
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
Demi wrote:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/dungy-nfl-needs-to-restrict-new-englands-substitution-game/

Dungy: NFL needs to restrict New England’s substitution game]

:lol: Guy tried to be all diplomatic early on about it. Until he realizes, hey, they broke the rules!

Quote:
Lost amid the furor over #DeflateGate is New England’s newfound penchant for playing the ineligible-eligible receiver game. Whether it’s a player wearing an ineligible number reporting as an eligible receiver or a player wearing an eligible number reporting as an ineligible receiver, the Patriots have begun aggressively using the tactic in an obvious effort to confuse defenses regarding who will be running a pass route and who won’t be.

“The NFL is going to have to do something about the Patriots’ ineligible-eligible substitution game,” former NFL head coach and current NBC Sports analyst Tony Dungy told PFT by email on Friday. “It is nothing but an intent to deceive and they are doing it very well. They’re reporting so fast and going so quickly the defense can’t respond. In fact, the officials can’t keep up.”

Dungy believes the officials missed at least one foul with this maneuver during the postseason.

“In the Baltimore game, [Shane] Vereen reported as ineligible several times,” Dungy explained. “If he stays in the game he must report again and continue to be ineligible. He must come out of the game for one play or there has to be a time out for him to play as an eligible receiver. On the touchdown drive Vereen played one play as ineligible and then played the next play in an eligible position. There should have been a penalty.”


You saw it in the LT TD pass. What a shady bunch of crap. They can't get a ring anymore playing by the intent of the law, so they decide to play by the letter of it.


Declaring a player eligible or ineligible is within the both the letter and intent of the rules and the Patriots are hardly the first team to take advantage of that possibility, nor will they be the last. If the officials missed a call that's on the officials. It's their job to enforce the rules.


Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:43 am
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Posts: 5616
Location: The Great White North
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
Mothman wrote:
Declaring a player eligible or ineligible is within the both the letter and intent of the rules and the Patriots are hardly the first team to take advantage of that possibility, nor will they be the last. If the officials missed a call that's on the officials. It's their job to enforce the rules.


Do you respect Dungy? Do you think he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the rules regarding eligibility and their enforcement?


Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:52 pm
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37219
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
VikingLord wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Declaring a player eligible or ineligible is within the both the letter and intent of the rules and the Patriots are hardly the first team to take advantage of that possibility, nor will they be the last. If the officials missed a call that's on the officials. It's their job to enforce the rules.


Do you respect Dungy? Do you think he knows what he's talking about when it comes to the rules regarding eligibility and their enforcement?


I respect him. What does that have to do with the rules or my comment above? Dungy's not saying the tactic is illegal. He may be right that the competition committee will need to look at it to consider if it should remain legal or if a rule change is necessary because of the way the Patriots have successfully used the tactic in combination with a hurry up offense to confuse defenses this postseason. However, right now, during this season, the tactic is legal so what's the problem? The Patriots aren't doing anything wrong in this regard. On the contrary, they've been doing something rather clever and effective. If they make a mistake in their execution of one of these eligible/ineligible plays, the onus is on the officials to penalize them for it. After all, they are there are to maintain control of the game and enforce the rules. If the pace of substitutions and reports moves too fast for them, they have whistles and the authority to slow things down and assert more control.

The bottom line here is that ineligible players are allowed to report as eligible and vice versa. A team must have at least 7 players on the line of scrimmage and the Patriots met that requirement. There's nothing in the rules about which 7 players must be on the line and as long as players report their eligibility to the officials and the official reports that information to the captain of the defense, it's all above board. The idea that it's problematic because it's an attempt to deceive is just silly, since NFL teams are constantly attempting to deceive each other using legal tactics. That's a part of the game.


Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:33 pm
Profile
Fenrir
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Posts: 10698
Location: Hawaii
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
I was pretty torn about who to root for in the Super Bowl as I don't particularly care for either team, but between all this nonsense and KWill, I'll just go with the Seahawks.


Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:45 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:14 pm
Posts: 4016
Location: So. Utah
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
Mothman wrote:

I respect him. What does that have to do with the rules or my comment above? Dungy's not saying the tactic is illegal. He may be right that the competition committee will need to look at it to consider if it should remain legal or if a rule change is necessary because of the way the Patriots have successfully used the tactic in combination with a hurry up offense to confuse defenses this postseason. However, right now, during this season, the tactic is legal so what's the problem? The Patriots aren't doing anything wrong in this regard. On the contrary, they've been doing something rather clever and effective. If they make a mistake in their execution of one of these eligible/ineligible plays, the onus is on the officials to penalize them for it. After all, they are there are to maintain control of the game and enforce the rules. If the pace of substitutions and reports moves too fast for them, they have whistles and the authority to slow things down and assert more control.

The bottom line here is that ineligible players are allowed to report as eligible and vice versa. A team must have at least 7 players on the line of scrimmage and the Patriots met that requirement. There's nothing in the rules about which 7 players must be on the line and as long as players report their eligibility to the officials and the official reports that information to the captain of the defense, it's all above board. The idea that it's problematic because it's an attempt to deceive is just silly, since NFL teams are constantly attempting to deceive each other using legal tactics. That's a part of the game.



I don't get the whining towards NE on this stuff either. The whining should be directed at the officials...which is where Harbaugh seemed to take it the first time. I never really heard definitively if the officials were guilty of not allowing enough time before the snap so the Ravens could line up correctly.

In the Championship game were the penalty was not called, I'm of the opinion there should be some punishment/consequences for the officials. There's players getting fines for simple issues nearly every game but officials seem to escape the consequences for missing blatant things.
Or maybe not and it's just not publicized.

But Dungy blaming the Pats for a missed call is off the mark. Funny that he's an old Colt.

Regardless, Belicheck and his team are confronted with a significant image issue when HoFers are calling him Bellicheat(Shula) and people like Aikman and Brunell are casting doubts on Brady, now Dungy piling on...all during prep time for the Superbowl. Bellichek has spent a lot of energy trying to diffuse this stuff. I wonder what the distractions will cause for his team if anything?


Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:26 pm
Profile
Commissioner

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:24 pm
Posts: 23761
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
Quote:
However, right now, during this season, the tactic is legal so what's the problem?


The intent of the rule is to give the defense time to adjust, and to know who is and isn't eligible. Declaring players eligible as close to the snap as possible isn't within the spirit of the rule. Which is why it's going to be changed. If there wasn't a problem the NFL competition committee wouldn't be taking it up, ex-NFL coaches wouldn't be calling them out, and officials wouldn't be "missing" things that apparently aren't there to begin with.


Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:36 pm
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37219
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
The Breeze wrote:
I don't get the whining towards NE on this stuff either. The whining should be directed at the officials...which is where Harbaugh seemed to take it the first time. I never really heard definitively if the officials were guilty of not allowing enough time before the snap so the Ravens could line up correctly.

In the Championship game were the penalty was not called, I'm of the opinion there should be some punishment/consequences for the officials. There's players getting fines for simple issues nearly every game but officials seem to escape the consequences for missing blatant things.
Or maybe not and it's just not publicized.

But Dungy blaming the Pats for a missed call is off the mark. Funny that he's an old Colt.

Regardless, Belicheck and his team are confronted with a significant image issue when HoFers are calling him Bellicheat(Shula) and people like Aikman and Brunell are casting doubts on Brady, now Dungy piling on...all during prep time for the Superbowl. Bellichek has spent a lot of energy trying to diffuse this stuff. I wonder what the distractions will cause for his team if anything?


It's tough to say, It may help them "circle the wagons" and seriously focus.

Belichick and Brady are definitely confronted with a serious image issue. I didn't hear Shula's comment but I suspect that's the pot calling the kettle black. There's no way a guy who coached back when he did, and coached for so long, didn't push the envelope at times and honestly, what bugs me about a lot of the criticism from former players and coaches is just that: the implication that the kind of stuff people are railing against Brady and Belichick for doing isn't positively commonplace in the NFL. A study of NFL history, or just listening to some other ex-players and coaches, reveals the opposite. Heck, that paragon of NFL coaching virtue, Tony Dungy, revealed the NFL coaching mindset in the PFT article at the link above:

Quote:
Dungy said that, if he were coaching the Seahawks, he’d reluctantly tell the players to fake defensive injuries in the Super Bowl to counter New England’s tactic.


Later, he reconsidered his position and said “I apologize for suggesting an illegal tactic to counteract this. That is not the way to handle it" but his comment shows us the NFL mentality... and Dungy is one of the league's good guys.


Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:42 pm
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37219
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
Demi wrote:
Quote:
However, right now, during this season, the tactic is legal so what's the problem?


The intent of the rule is to give the defense time to adjust, and to know who is and isn't eligible.


That responsibility falls on the officials, not the offense.

Quote:
Which is why it's going to be changed. If there wasn't a problem the NFL competition committee wouldn't be taking it up


We don't know that they are taking it up and we also don't know what, if anything, they will do if they decide to take a look at it.

Quote:
...and officials wouldn't be "missing" things that apparently aren't there to begin with.


What does that even mean?


Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:48 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:14 pm
Posts: 4016
Location: So. Utah
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
Mothman wrote:
Later, he reconsidered his position and said “I apologize for suggesting an illegal tactic to counteract this. That is not the way to handle it" but his comment show us the NFL mentality... and Dungy is one of the league's good guys.



This has been my axe to grind all along...and I agree with you about history and the pot/kettle....but I would like to see an effort made to shift that mentality. Altruistic, perhaps.....but I was impressed with Belichek's presser given how he usually is in regards to public expression. I think it takes people in leadership positions to make those shifts, not necessarily people granted positions of authority. The difference between Belichek and Goodell IMO, for example.

For me it echoes further into our society as to why we need laws, comandments or rule to know not to do "bad" things and how we define success in our culture.

It's a slippery slope when it come to a competitive sport like football. The conversation is interesting and I've enjoyed reading everyone's takes on it.


Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:56 pm
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37219
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
The Breeze wrote:
This has been my axe to grind all along...and I agree with you about history and the pot/kettle....but I would like to see an effort made to shift that mentality. Altruistic, perhaps.....but I was impressed with Belichek's presser given how he usually is in regards to public expression. I think it takes people in leadership positions to make those shifts, not necessarily people granted positions of authority. The difference between Belichek and Goodell IMO, for example.


Well said and the sentiment may be altruistic but I'd like to see an effort to shift that mentality as well.

Quote:
For me it echoes further into our society as to why we need laws, comandments or rule to know not to do "bad" things and how we define success in our culture.

It's a slippery slope when it come to a competitive sport like football. The conversation is interesting and I've enjoyed reading everyone's takes on it.


It is interesting and I suspect that's one of many reasons why this affair has gripped the nation's attention for a week. Has anything ever spoken to the popularity of the NFL more effectively than the media tidal wave (and all the accompanying discussion) over under-inflated footballs? When you think about it, it's pretty wacky. :banana:


Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:13 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee

Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:14 pm
Posts: 4016
Location: So. Utah
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
Mothman wrote:
It is interesting and I suspect that's one of many reasons why this affair has gripped the nation's attention for a week. Has anything ever spoken to the popularity of the NFL more effectively than the media tidal wave (and all the accompanying discussion) over under-inflated footballs? When you think about it, it's pretty wacky. :banana:



Whacky, symbolic and apropos all in one. It's easy to see the Patriots, in their red white and blue, representing our own cultural elite, the people who get slapped on the hands for bending rules the rest of us get busted for. I suppose there are many who would like to see that group have the wind taken out of their sails.....or their balls deflated.

Fate not being without a sense of irony?


Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:32 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Posts: 5616
Location: The Great White North
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
Mothman wrote:
The idea that it's problematic because it's an attempt to deceive is just silly, since NFL teams are constantly attempting to deceive each other using legal tactics. That's a part of the game.


The line is a fine one to be sure, but I'm not making the argument that the substitution rules are a problem in themselves. I agree that it's the job of the refs to enforce the rules and if a team violates them and the refs miss it, that is on the refs and the NFL itself to ensure officiating is done correctly.

But even staunch admirers of Bill Belichek's acumen have to admit that the spirit of rules can be abused. Loopholes can be found, ways to exploit interpretations to increase the likelihood of a certain outcome, ways to tilt the odds in one's favor despite the intent of most rules which is to neutralize unfair advantage.

We'll see where this ends up, but what is 100% certain is the NFL will get more of what it allows. The only way to stamp out undesirable outcomes is to come down forcefully when teams cross the line. If this is desirable (either the ball treatment or late eligible declarations), then more teams will do it and Belichek and the Pats will have to keep digging through the rule book to figure out more ways to exploit the rules to maintain whatever relative advantage they get from doing that.


Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:10 am
Profile
Defensive Tackle
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Posts: 37219
Location: Chicago, IL
Post Re: More New England Cheating?
VikingLord wrote:
Mothman wrote:
The idea that it's problematic because it's an attempt to deceive is just silly, since NFL teams are constantly attempting to deceive each other using legal tactics. That's a part of the game.


The line is a fine one to be sure, but I'm not making the argument that the substitution rules are a problem in themselves. I agree that it's the job of the refs to enforce the rules and if a team violates them and the refs miss it, that is on the refs and the NFL itself to ensure officiating is done correctly.

But even staunch admirers of Bill Belichek's acumen have to admit that the spirit of rules can be abused. Loopholes can be found, ways to exploit interpretations to increase the likelihood of a certain outcome, ways to tilt the odds in one's favor despite the intent of most rules which is to neutralize unfair advantage.


Virtually all deception in the NFL is an attempt to tilt the odds in one's favor within the rules so I don't really see a "spirit of the rule" violation or an unfair advantage in what they did. Teams have been running tackle eligible plays for decades! I think the complaints have a lot more to do with the fact that it's the Patriots who did it and frankly, most of them read like sour grapes. There certainly wasn't a lot of complaining from teams or fans when J. J. Watt was catching TDs this season or when teams began running "no huddle" offenses, which are also designed to put the defense at a disadvantage.

Quote:
We'll see where this ends up, but what is 100% certain is the NFL will get more of what it allows. The only way to stamp out undesirable outcomes is to come down forcefully when teams cross the line. If this is desirable (either the ball treatment or late eligible declarations), then more teams will do it and Belichek and the Pats will have to keep digging through the rule book to figure out more ways to exploit the rules to maintain whatever relative advantage they get from doing that.


Which is what everybody else in the league does too.


Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:26 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 170 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.