More New England Cheating?

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VikingLord
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by VikingLord » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:38 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: First of all, I couldn't give two schicks what anybody else in pro football thinks. This isn't a theory. It is a physical fact. Don't believe me?
Believe it or not, I actually *do* get what you are saying and, within limits of the physics, *do* agree it could explain under-inflated balls.

What I am trying to say is, why does Tom Brady or Bill Belichek need to explain 9th grade physics to anyone to say that is what might have happened, especially if, as you are proposing, it was done intentionally by Brady or someone Brady told to do it? Why not just say hey, the balls were inflated to spec when tested before the game and the cold must have caused them to lose pressure when brought outside.

Also, as I understand it, your theory is actually testable, and testable by the NFL itself provided someone records pressure readings for both sets of balls used. The Colts also had a set tested before and at halftime. The balls used by the Colts also went from inside to outside and spent the exact same amount of time in both conditions as those used by the Pats. So it stands to reason based on physics that whatever happened to one set of balls due to the ideal gas law must have happened to the other set of balls. All they would have to do is look at how much pressure the balls used by the Colts lost over that same amount of time. If it is enough to explain the readings they got from the balls used by the Patriots, then I'd say that is the explanation and, as you point out, the Pats technically did nothing wrong as the rule only states an acceptable range of inflation at the time the balls are tested prior to the game.

But if the balls used by the Colts didn't lose enough to explain the readings in the balls used by the Pats, then PV=nRT doesn't explain what was seen.

It's actually a very testable hypothesis provided someone records the readings.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by VikingLord » Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:53 am

Raptorman wrote:Maybe not just an opinion. Click on the link, and watch the video. Three people checking out the difference in ball psi and what it means. Then read the article on the Pats lack of fumbles since 2007. Very interesting.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... 3Fp%3D2932
This is the exact thing I was referring to earlier regarding the Pats and the willingness of a lot of people to just take it at face value that they are so much better at things over a long period of time without any additional "help", seen or unseen. They were caught cheating once and very well could be again here, and who knows how many other things they've managed to get away with that still haven't come to light?
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by The Breeze » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:14 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: No offense, but the "I feel cheated" argument is a very sanctimonious point of view that is also completely irrelevant. How you feel has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual rule. And it's not a technicality of physics. It's a scientific fact. The air pressure in a football will drop if the temperature drops.
I understand that it's a fact. Most people who play with basketballs and footballs outdoors understand this by 12-13 yrs. At least I did. I don't feel that my opinion is at all irrelevant much less completely. I root for the Patriots to win and then find out that through a technicality about the way a specific rule is enforced knowingly gives them a competitive advantage on the playing field (and I'm not saying that's exactly what happened but following your original example) an advantage that to me is uncertain but it is a rule and other people have said it does create a specific advantage....and is quite possibly an act they've been pulling during winter home games for years now. They are cheating the other team and the fans who are invested with the belief that something as simple as the football is not being doctored/altered in any way for an advantage.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: For the record, your example is way, way off base. In your scenario, both players broke the rules. One player happened to not realize it, while the other didn't get caught. My whole point is that no one has proven the Patriots broke any rule here. Simply turning in footballs that are inflated to 12.5 psi is not a rules violation. In fact, by the rule's very definition, it's the opposite.

My example was to suggest that even if the Patriots didn't truly understand that by gametime their balls would be under the legal limit they are still gaining a competitive edge as a result and should be corrected.
If the Patriots did as you said: had the balls inspected at a certain temperature knowing the the change in temp would create illegal balls, then in my opinion they broke the spirit of the rule which is put in place to prevent that from happening. Again like my first comment regarding your original post, "Intention". They intended to cheat and they did if it unfolded the way you suggested.
I think you are blurring the line between what the rule is about and how the league has chosen to enforce it. Enforcement of the rule is flawed as the Patriots have shown and they have shown that they are willing to cheat if they think they can get away with it. In this case they have gotten away with it because no one in their right mind is going to willingly admit that what was done was intentional. It's impossible to prove their intent but it's quite obvious using your example as a case scenario. You applaud that, I don't. I find that at this level of competition with what's at stake in a title game that there is no room for that kind of BS. I find it unsportsmanlike. I'm probably in the minority. I find myself less inclined to root for them as a result...more like hoping they get the $$%^ kicked out of them on sunday. I have never felt that way about the Pats before, unless they are playing the Vikes.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: And by the way, why are you letting the refs off the hook? It's their job to ensure the balls are legal. That's why teams are required to turn them in 2 hours and 15 minutes before game time. If the balls were under inflated, the officials should have taken them back to the Patriots and made them fix them.
When they were alerted to it they did so.
I think the way they have the rule set up is completely stupid, if there is that much of an advantage involved. Either let teams have what ever pressure they want or pick one universal number and have the officials or some official body be in charge.

I think that it's possible the current regime in NE puts winning above integrity. I don't need the league office or the officials to prove or point that out to me because I don't think they feel it's in their best interest...which is another integrity issue IMO.

As for a golf analogy: any golfer tampering with a ball to gain an advantage would be cheating IMO.

I can't support, although I surely can believe it, when professionals hid behind the language of poorly enforced rule to cheat. To me it's the equivalent of a corporation using an offshore account to avoid paying their fair share of taxes. I might expect something like this out of a lessor team like a Detroit or Cleveland...but the fact that it's the premiere franchise of the league and not the first time they have been cast in this light really sucks to me and for the league.

Again my opinion in this vein is based upon the Patriots knowingly creating an unfair advantage for themselves, which has yet to be proven and most likely can't be.
Last edited by The Breeze on Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by The Breeze » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:32 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:And Breeze, you didn't answer my question. Did Tiger Woods cheat by moving the boulder?

He certainly gained a competitive advantage.
I'm not sure that example fits this scenario, but I don't consider that cheating as I don't imagine it would be difficult for any pro golfer to enlist the help of spectators in such a situation.

In fact I can't think of another example that fits this one exactly. What the NFL does in terms of allowing teams to furnish their own balls is kind of awkward IMO.
Baseball would be the one sport where you might have a similar possibility, but umpires are constantly checking the state of the balls and eliminating any advantage a pitcher might get.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by Demi » Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:10 pm

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/i ... nship-game
ESPN Sports Radio 810 in Kansas City reported that the Patriots' footballs were tested at the half, reinflated at that time when they were found to be low, then put back in play for the second half, and then tested again after the game. The report did not reveal the results of the test following the game. All of the balls the Colts used met standards, according to the report.
Also reports the Ravens were the ones that let the Colts know it may be an issue.

Patriots cheated, got caught. Why the need to make excuses for them? To claim it had no affect on the game? If it wasn't an issue, there wouldn't be a rule, and the Patriots wouldn't be doing it. (And they wouldn't have made the push in the first place)

NFL needs to take full control over all game balls and not let either team have access to them outside of play...
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by Demi » Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:00 pm

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... tion-game/

Dungy: NFL needs to restrict New England’s substitution game]

:lol: Guy tried to be all diplomatic early on about it. Until he realizes, hey, they broke the rules!
Lost amid the furor over #DeflateGate is New England’s newfound penchant for playing the ineligible-eligible receiver game. Whether it’s a player wearing an ineligible number reporting as an eligible receiver or a player wearing an eligible number reporting as an ineligible receiver, the Patriots have begun aggressively using the tactic in an obvious effort to confuse defenses regarding who will be running a pass route and who won’t be.

“The NFL is going to have to do something about the Patriots’ ineligible-eligible substitution game,” former NFL head coach and current NBC Sports analyst Tony Dungy told PFT by email on Friday. “It is nothing but an intent to deceive and they are doing it very well. They’re reporting so fast and going so quickly the defense can’t respond. In fact, the officials can’t keep up.”

Dungy believes the officials missed at least one foul with this maneuver during the postseason.

“In the Baltimore game, [Shane] Vereen reported as ineligible several times,” Dungy explained. “If he stays in the game he must report again and continue to be ineligible. He must come out of the game for one play or there has to be a time out for him to play as an eligible receiver. On the touchdown drive Vereen played one play as ineligible and then played the next play in an eligible position. There should have been a penalty.”
You saw it in the LT TD pass. What a shady bunch of crap. They can't get a ring anymore playing by the intent of the law, so they decide to play by the letter of it. As usual. Remember, these are the scumbags that made the NFL overhaul the illegal contact/pass interference rules after they mauled the Colts receivers. How can ANYONE make excuses for this team? They're literally making the game less enjoyable to watch. But "they just try hard"? Give me a break. You can see game to game how the refs are having to adjust to all the CRAP they're pulling. :wallbang:

NFL has to rewrite rules every year for the stuff this "genius" does. A fourteen year old kid could read the rules and start abusing the intent, does that make him a genius too? Man Belicheat is a Grade A ####.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by frosted » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:41 pm

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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by frosted » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:47 pm

Demi wrote:http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... tion-game/

Dungy: NFL needs to restrict New England’s substitution game]

:lol: Guy tried to be all diplomatic early on about it. Until he realizes, hey, they broke the rules!
You saw it in the LT TD pass. What a shady bunch of crap. They can't get a ring anymore playing by the intent of the law, so they decide to play by the letter of it. As usual. Remember, these are the scumbags that made the NFL overhaul the illegal contact/pass interference rules after they mauled the Colts receivers. How can ANYONE make excuses for this team? They're literally making the game less enjoyable to watch. But "they just try hard"? Give me a break. You can see game to game how the refs are having to adjust to all the CRAP they're pulling. :wallbang:

NFL has to rewrite rules every year for the stuff this "genius" does. A fourteen year old kid could read the rules and start abusing the intent, does that make him a genius too? Man Belicheat is a Grade A ####.
:violin:
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by 808vikingsfan » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:57 pm

For the science buffs out there. A few people have commented about the temperature theory being almost impossible. Valid?
RegisHawk says:
Jan 24, 2015 10:29 AM
Two points he missed:

1) The balls are tested by the refs after being inflated. It’s a good bet the refs don’t take the balls into a sauna to make sure they are the proper pressure. So we are still at a rough estimate of 12.5 psi at around 72 degrees Farenheit.

2) The formula referenced (pV=nRT) refers to temperature in Kelvin. For those who don’t know, Kelvin is basically Celsius with a starting point of Absolute Zero for its zero-point, which is 273.15 degrees below that for Celsius. So, in order to be 10.5 psi (roughly a 14% drop in pressure), the temperature has to drop at least 40 degrees Kelvin, which would roughly equate to at least 72 degrees Farenheit.
For the DIY guys :
willycents says:
Jan 24, 2015 10:40 AM
|Ok. A decidedly non-scientific test just to satisfy myself.
The test: I inflated my kids 2 footballs to 13 pounds in my house. It was a shade over 72 degrees in my living room. I then placed them outside for 2 hours at a temperature initially of 9 degrees, finishing at 4 degrees, by my non-calibrated thermometers.
The result: With the same gauge I used initially, the finishing pressure was just a shade over 12.5 pounds.
The analysis: a drop of about 65 degrees in two hours results in a pressure loss of about one half pound in leather Wilson brand footballs that are about six months old.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... footballs/
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by Demi » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:57 pm

:roll: Coach was fined, Team was fined, lost a draft pick.

Last time they cheated

They cheated again, and got caught.

And look, another cheating scandal! What team? The same one? I bet it's just a coincidence. Wait, substitution issues, AND ball PSI issue? Aw coincidence. Play that violin. Nothing to see here. :roll:
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by frosted » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:08 pm

Oops
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by Demi » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:15 pm

I'm not mad. Just pointing out they were caught cheating and punished. And now they were caught cheating again. As well as "bending" rules. In the same post season. :confused:
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by VikingLord » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:26 pm

While this doesn't surprise me, it's depressing nonetheless...

The problem isn't that the Patriots might have been cheating - the problem is that someone called them out on it and now they are inconvenienced by the truth. Classic "image protection".

There will be 1 of 2 possible outcomes to this:

A) The league will severely punish Belichek and the Patriots ala what they did to AD, thus making sure the risk calculus for getting caught changes and they don't have other teams looking to bend and twist the rules
B) They will fail to do that, thus encouraging widespread adoption of the same tactics by other teams, which will pretty much make the rules meaningless over time and possibly encourage even more blatant disregard

I saw Belichek's presser, and he's basically daring the league to do something about it. It will be interesting to see if they fold up into the fetal position like Harbaugh, or if they come down as hard and abruptly as they did against players who also spoke boldly about how they weren't sorry for what they did.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by frosted » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:34 pm

Demi wrote:I'm not mad. Just pointing out they were caught cheating and punished. And now they were caught cheating again. As well as "bending" rules. In the same post season. :confused:
Oh, sorry. That was rude.

I mean, it is what it is - maybe they're dirty old b@stards that cheat all the time, but I think it's naive to look at this as some sort of egregious activity that goes against the integrity of the game.

But everyone has the right to decide for themselves, so sorry for infringing upon that with my violin. It was mean.

The end.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:42 pm

I'm not gonna argue on this anymore.

This has to do with New England, not the Vikings. I don't think they did anything wrong, but I'm not wasting my brain power on it any more.

Moving on to free agency and the draft.
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