More New England Cheating?

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808vikingsfan
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by 808vikingsfan » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:46 pm

Mothman wrote:
That's an interesting perspective considering they're currently being taken to task on a national level by fans and the media alike. That's hardly worshipful behavior.
I'd say so too and that puts them pretty much in line with the history of the league. I'm still waiting for someone here to express outrage at the Vikings heating up footballs on the sideline earlier this season to gain an advantage. They were cheating. They violated the rules and the league warned them about it. Shouldn't we be incensed?

I suspect the turmoil over this topic has a lot less to do with worshipfully putting Belichick and Brady on a pedestal than knocking them off one.
Weren't both teams heating (defrosting would be a better term) the footballs?

Maybe we should be questioning the Colts (or any other team that played the Patriots in recent years) for not doing the same? :)
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by 808vikingsfan » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:55 pm

Mothman wrote:

He also went 9 for 9 to start the second half and threw all 2 of his 3 TDs during that stretch... and all of that was after the officials had addressed the ball problem. So, where did the advantage really manifest itself? It certainly didn't clearly show in Brady's on-field performance. He was better after the balls were inflated to the correct PSI. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm downplaying it because I don't think it's a big deal. I think media are treating it like Watergate because it's a ratings/clicks/paper-selling godsend during the first of two weeks between the conference championships and the Super Bowl and because of the Pats past transgression.

If they cheated, they cheated and as I said earlier in the thread, they should face whatever consequences the league deems necessary but there is very little reason to believe the deflated balls had any serious impact on the outcome of the game.
I don't think it would've made a difference in this game. Maybe in the Ravens game?
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by frosted » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:57 pm

Were/are people outraged over this?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11414 ... tact-rules
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by vikingsfan90 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:53 am

so... the nfl is investigating its own team's crime and it's getting smaller and smaller? How is this not a conflict of interest?! Does the nfl really think we are such fools? How many more things will they blow up and scale down before they are satisfied that everyone forgot about Adrian Peterson and Ray Rice and how roger goodell totally screwed those situations up!
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by dead_poet » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:31 pm

The NFL issued a statement Friday on "DeflateGate," saying it's been determined that footballs used by the Patriots in the second half of Sunday's AFC Championship Game were properly inflated, but footballs used by the Patriots in the first half were "under-inflated."

The investigation is being led by Ted Wells and Jeff Pash. Wells and Pash have interviewed 40 people, and their investigation remains "ongoing" with no timetable for a resolution. Per the initial statement, "The goals of the investigation will be to determine the explanation for why footballs used in the game were not in compliance with the playing rules and specifically whether any noncompliance was the result of deliberate action." The Patriots have publicly denied altering footballs at any point before or during last Sunday's game.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by Raptorman » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:14 pm

dead_poet wrote:The NFL issued a statement Friday on "DeflateGate," saying it's been determined that footballs used by the Patriots in the second half of Sunday's AFC Championship Game were properly inflated, but footballs used by the Patriots in the first half were "under-inflated."

The investigation is being led by Ted Wells and Jeff Pash. Wells and Pash have interviewed 40 people, and their investigation remains "ongoing" with no timetable for a resolution. Per the initial statement, "The goals of the investigation will be to determine the explanation for why footballs used in the game were not in compliance with the playing rules and specifically whether any noncompliance was the result of deliberate action." The Patriots have publicly denied altering footballs at any point before or during last Sunday's game.
The simplest answer is usually the correct one. Since we know the weather had nothing to do with it, The Colts balls were not affected, then it had to be done by someone.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:47 pm

Three words.

Ideal Gas Law.

PV=nRT

The only thing you need to know is that pressure is on one side of the equation, and temperature is on the other. If temperature goes down, so does pressure.

You inflate the balls to 12.5 psi in the locker room at 75 degrees. You take the balls outdoors to 35-degree temperatures, and it a scientific fact that the pressure will drop. As a matter of fact, it will drop to 10.6 psi, given the volume of the football.

The rule DOES NOT SPECIFY what the temperature must be when the pressure is measured. It only states the pressure, and that the balls must be delivered to the officials no less than 2 hours, 15 minutes before game time. THE OFFICIALS then are supposed to determine whether they meet specifications.

So ... let's say that Tom Brady understands the ideal gas law. That's not far fetched. After all, we all understand it intuitively when we inflate our tires, and Brady is a 15-year veteran who knows his craft. And let's say that Brady KNOWS if he has the equipment manager inflate the balls to exactly 12.5 psi at 75 degrees, they'll end up at 10.6 psi once they've equalized with the outside temperature.

Even if he knew all that AND did it intentionally to gain a competitive advantage ... HE DID NOT CHEAT.

Tax accountants understand this. They will use any legal means to save their client money. They will use the tax code to their client's advantage. The Supreme Court has ruled that this is legal.

This is all Tom Brady did. The rule does not specify temperature. He used the rule to his advantage. The rule places the onus on the refs. Brady used that to his advantage, too.

I say, "Nice job outta you, Tom Brady."
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by The Breeze » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:39 pm

Intent
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:48 pm

The Breeze wrote:Intent
So what?

Don't want anyone to use the rule to their advantage? Write a better rule.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by VikingLord » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:53 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: This is all Tom Brady did. The rule does not specify temperature. He used the rule to his advantage. The rule places the onus on the refs. Brady used that to his advantage, too.

I say, "Nice job outta you, Tom Brady."
You sound pretty sure about that, and I might buy it but for one small problem - neither Brady nor Belichek said that was what happened. In fact, both of them, despite being pretty astute individuals familiar with footballs, pretty much said they had no idea what caused the footballs to deflate.

Other problem with your theory is that pretty much nobody else in the pro football world (mostly former QBs and players) is saying that is what must have happened either.

It would be a nice job if indeed it was the explanation, but it doesn't seem to be based on what those involved are saying.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by frosted » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:55 pm

VikingLord wrote: You sound pretty sure about that, and I might buy it but for one small problem - neither Brady nor Belichek said that was what happened. In fact, both of them, despite being pretty astute individuals familiar with footballs, pretty much said they had no idea what caused the footballs to deflate.

Other problem with your theory is that pretty much nobody else in the pro football world (mostly former QBs and players) is saying that is what must have happened either.

It would be a nice job if indeed it was the explanation, but it doesn't seem to be based on what those involved are saying.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... footballs/
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by VikingLord » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:02 am

Thanks for posting that link, frosted. That is the first I've seen others discussing Kapp's theory, and as I said in my response to him, it is actually a reasonable possible explanation for what was observed.

But the problem remains that neither Brady nor Belichek brought that up, and both have been around footballs long enough to know they could deflate under those conditions. If either of them had just said "Hey, footballs lose pressure if they're inflated warm and brought outside", I'd be more inclined to believe that is what happened.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by frosted » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:05 am

VikingLord wrote:Thanks for posting that link, frosted. That is the first I've seen others discussing Kapp's theory, and as I said in my response to him, it is actually a reasonable possible explanation for what was observed.

But the problem remains that neither Brady nor Belichek brought that up, and both have been around footballs long enough to know they could deflate under those conditions. If either of them had just said "Hey, footballs lose pressure if they're inflated warm and brought outside", I'd be more inclined to believe that is what happened.
No problem, I just happened to see it a few minutes ago actually, haha - and I mean, it's still a pretty sketchy way of going about things, even if it is true. At this point, I'm more or less just pumped for a (hopefully) great football game a week from Sunday.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:26 am

VikingLord wrote: You sound pretty sure about that, and I might buy it but for one small problem - neither Brady nor Belichek said that was what happened. In fact, both of them, despite being pretty astute individuals familiar with footballs, pretty much said they had no idea what caused the footballs to deflate.

Other problem with your theory is that pretty much nobody else in the pro football world (mostly former QBs and players) is saying that is what must have happened either.

It would be a nice job if indeed it was the explanation, but it doesn't seem to be based on what those involved are saying.
First of all, I couldn't give two schicks what anybody else in pro football thinks. This isn't a theory. It is a physical fact. Don't believe me? Conduct your own experiment. Inflate a football to 12.5 pounds at room temperature, put it in the refrigerator for an hour (most refrigerators regulate temperature at about 37 degrees, roughly the same air temperature as the game that day), remove the football, and measure the pressure. The ideal gas law is a physical law that WILL apply to your experiment. The ball will measure somewhere between 10.5 and 11 pounds. Nothing the so-called pro football experts can say will change the immutable laws of physics.

Second, given the prevailing attitude and stunning lack of understanding on the subject, there is no way Tom Brady is going to tell the truth. I mean, we're talking explaining the ideal gas law to a thousand media hacks who didn't pay attention in 9th grade science. They'd crucify him.

And besides, It just doesn't matter. The rule doesn't account for temperature, so if the balls the Patriots turned in to the refs 2 hours and 15 minutes before the game were inflated to at least 12.5 pounds, then they did nothing wrong ... even if they knew the pressure would drop. They followed the rule as written. Again, if you don't like the Pats taking advantage of a rule, write a better rule.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by The Breeze » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:31 am

VikingLord wrote:Thanks for posting that link, frosted. That is the first I've seen others discussing Kapp's theory, and as I said in my response to him, it is actually a reasonable possible explanation for what was observed.

But the problem remains that neither Brady nor Belichek brought that up, and both have been around footballs long enough to know they could deflate under those conditions. If either of them had just said "Hey, footballs lose pressure if they're inflated warm and brought outside", I'd be more inclined to believe that is what happened.
They wouldn't cop to intentionally skirting a rule to gain an advantage cause it's still cheating. If that's how it happened no one will ever admit to it.
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