More New England Cheating?

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The Breeze
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by The Breeze »

Mothman wrote:This whole thing seems like a tempest in a teapot to me. I'm not endorsing cheating. The rules are in place and should be enforced but I also think, in the big picture, this is a very minor violation and probably not all that unusual. I think teams and players are constantly doing little things like this to gain whatever slight advantage they believe it gives them (see the link I posted above about the Vikings heating footballs on the sidelines during the Panthers game this season, Warren Sapp's comments about Brad Johnson using pine tar, Johnson's own comments about paying to have footballs scuffed up for the Super Bowl, Aaron Rodgers wanting the ball over-inflated, etc.). In many cases, any advantage provided might be more psychological than anything else. Football history is littered with examples of teams doing whatever they can to gain some sort of competitive advantage.

According to a report on PFT, "there’s no reason to believe the officials should have noticed anything unusual" and, according to a league source, "a pressure difference of one or two pounds would not be obvious, if the official is not specifically looking for it." If that's the case, and the difference in air pressure isn't even noticeable without testing, how significant of an advantage could under-inflated footballs possibly have provided? According to the same report, the officials were aware of the issue in the first half and "the league opted not to stop the game during the first half but to test the balls at halftime". That alone tells me this isn't very significant in terms of impact on the game.

The NFL should determine who was responsible for this, fine or otherwise punish them and then take steps to prevent it from happening again. If this stuff is truly important, regulate it and make it impossible for teams and players to mess with the footballs used in the game. The mere fact that this wasn't being done also tells me it was of minimal importance to just about everyone.
I think if it were any other team than the Patriots it would hardly be an issue. My own take on it is influenced by the fact that they have been in the spotlight for this kind of thing before(rule bending). Even going back to the snowplow game...which was another situation where the HC wasn't even culpable.

I can't imagine the air pressure creates that big a difference. What surprises me is that teams supply their own balls rather than some league apparatus. That suggests that their is some leeway for "personalizing" the balls in some way...air pressure/scuffing being the most obvious.

It makes me think that the air pressure standard is there more for continuity than to prevent some edge. If you took the standard away teams could inflate the ball however and all have the same edge.

If you are going to make teams provide their own balls why have the pressure standard?...it doesn't make sense now that I really think about it.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

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The Breeze wrote:I think if it were any other team than the Patriots it would hardly be an issue. My own take on it is influenced by the fact that they have been in the spotlight for this kind of thing before(rule bending). Even going back to the snowplow game...which was another situation where the HC wasn't even culpable.
I agree that this has become such a big issue precisely because it's the Patriots involved and not, say, the Vikings, Browns, Texans, etc.
I can't imagine the air pressure creates that big a difference. What surprises me is that teams supply their own balls rather than some league apparatus. That suggests that their is some leeway for "personalizing" the balls in some way...air pressure/scuffing being the most obvious.
I think there is some leeway. As I understand it, the league provides the team with the footballs in advance of each game and the team can then prepare them (within certain guidelines) prior to the game.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

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Mothman wrote: I think there is some leeway. As I understand it, the league provides the team with the footballs in advance of each game and the team can then prepare them (within certain guidelines) prior to the game.
So, at the end of the day the rule doesn't even make any sense to me. If you are going to let offenses play with their own ball why not let the QB have it the way he likes it? No one gets any extra advantage that way.

Seems like a weird antiquated rule. Maybe more about conformity/uniformity than actual performance enhancing...like Lynch's cleat issue.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

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frosted wrote: It sounds like those involved in the game find it humorous that this situation is receiving so much press/shock/outrage.

It really is though. This is not a big deal, but because ESPN and the media needs something to talk about, they have to exaggerate a "story" to tide people over for the week. And of course social media has taken this and ran with it. From afar, it looks really silly and I haven't really engaged in too much chatter about it, because it's pretty petty stuff.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

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Mothman wrote:I think there is some leeway. As I understand it, the league provides the team with the footballs in advance of each game and the team can then prepare them (within certain guidelines) prior to the game.
From what I understood, teams have a range with which the balls need to be inflated to. It's either a 2 or 3 psi difference. I can't remember, but it's totally conceivable that the Patriots filled it to the lower range of that psi window and as the ball moved outside and was used, it dropped below the required threshold. Probably why it's hard to prove that there was any wrongdoing considering the refs did check the balls prior to the game.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

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These rules are created by the NFL Competition Committee. If ball pressure were not important, my guess is the Competition Committee wouldn't have created a rule to regulate it. The rules exist because someone in a position to know thought ball pressure was significant, and standardizing it was significant enough to create a rule. So we then have a rule, and knowingly breaking the rule is cheating plain-and-simple.

If enforcing the rule is a significant burden, or the rule itself is unenforceable due to technical considerations, then the affected people (read, coaches, players, refs) should take it back for review by the Competition Committee. They should not simply ignore it and then claim later that ignoring it contributed nothing to the ultimate outcome. That belief (and the seeming willingness of so many to believe it in this case because hey, it's Tom Brady we're talking about here, right?) seems completely unfounded to me. Brady makes his living throwing the ball. Maybe he doesn't throw it or grip it nearly as well if it's properly inflated, which in turn makes his passes less accurate, have less velocity, or perhaps wobble or something as they come out, making it harder for the receiver to adjust and make a solid catch.

It seems like a lot of people have just accepted Bill Belichek as a football equivalent of God, and Tom Brady is his prophet. Their miracles are simply a product of their divinity and those results shouldn't be questioned because they are so darned impressive. They are like magicians, consistently doing what no others can do despite this being a copycat league full of many other very talented, motivated, and smart people. But all accede to the Divine presence of the mighty New England Patriots who merely work *harder*, are *smarter*, and *more* talented than all those other teams and the people on them.

:puke:

Or maybe, just maybe, other factors are at work. Maybe, just maybe, Belichek and Brady have found ways to consistently bend and break the rules to create an unfair advantage and are willing to accept the risk of occasionally getting caught. They might wager (correctly, I would add), that even if they are caught, neither the punishment meted out by the league nor the backlash from fans will be significant enough to deter them from doing it again. Winning is everything, and if you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar a few times, but still end up getting the cookies anyway, then I'd say their calculus is probably accurate.

It will be very interesting to see how hard the league comes down on them for this.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

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VikingLord wrote:These rules are created by the NFL Competition Committee. If ball pressure were not important, my guess is the Competition Committee wouldn't have created a rule to regulate it. The rules exist because someone in a position to know thought ball pressure was significant, and standardizing it was significant enough to create a rule. So we then have a rule, and knowingly breaking the rule is cheating plain-and-simple.

If enforcing the rule is a significant burden, or the rule itself is unenforceable due to technical considerations, then the affected people (read, coaches, players, refs) should take it back for review by the Competition Committee. They should not simply ignore it and then claim later that ignoring it contributed nothing to the ultimate outcome. That belief (and the seeming willingness of so many to believe it in this case because hey, it's Tom Brady we're talking about here, right?) seems completely unfounded to me. Brady makes his living throwing the ball. Maybe he doesn't throw it or grip it nearly as well if it's properly inflated, which in turn makes his passes less accurate, have less velocity, or perhaps wobble or something as they come out, making it harder for the receiver to adjust and make a solid catch.

It seems like a lot of people have just accepted Bill Belichek as a football equivalent of God, and Tom Brady is his prophet. Their miracles are simply a product of their divinity and those results shouldn't be questioned because they are so darned impressive. They are like magicians, consistently doing what no others can do despite this being a copycat league full of many other very talented, motivated, and smart people. But all accede to the Divine presence of the mighty New England Patriots who merely work *harder*, are *smarter*, and *more* talented than all those other teams and the people on them.

:puke:

Or maybe, just maybe, other factors are at work. Maybe, just maybe, Belichek and Brady have found ways to consistently bend and break the rules to create an unfair advantage and are willing to accept the risk of occasionally getting caught. They might wager (correctly, I would add), that even if they are caught, neither the punishment meted out by the league nor the backlash from fans will be significant enough to deter them from doing it again. Winning is everything, and if you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar a few times, but still end up getting the cookies anyway, then I'd say their calculus is probably accurate.

It will be very interesting to see how hard the league comes down on them for this.
I understand what you're saying and don't necessarily disagree. What I don't get is putting teams in charge of handling the footballs rather than some official or independent body. Which is apparently what is being done for the Superbowl.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

Post by 808vikingsfan »

IMO, deflating footballs are like scuffing baseballs, you are altering equipment to enhance performance. Just because some other people do it, doesn't make it OK. Cheating is cheating.

It shouldn't be a big deal. The Patriots tried cheating again and got caught. Penalize them and move on.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

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The Breeze wrote: I understand what you're saying and don't necessarily disagree. What I don't get is putting teams in charge of handling the footballs rather than some official or independent body. Which is apparently what is being done for the Superbowl.
I agree. It doesn't make sense. Just have one source for balls and problem solved. With the way it is now, they may as well color the footballs with team colors depending on who's on offense.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

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I don't understand the downplaying of it, honestly.

I hear how the QB is the most important position on the field ... one team did something to give their QB an advantage and one didn't. The QB with the advantage threw 3/1 TD/INT ratio and completed 65% of his passes. The one who didn't have it (and who was also the #1 pick in the Pro Bowl for the second year in a row) had a 0/1 TD/INT ratio and completed 36%.

It's possible Luck isn't great in the playoffs. It's possible that Brady is just that much better than him in those conditions. It's also possible that the ball would have made a difference and lowered Brady to Luck's level in the game.

Oh well ... it doesn't matter now anyway. The Patriots are in the Super Bowl and it's likely nothing will come of this. It's wasted time even considering anymore at this point.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

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Cliff wrote:I don't understand the downplaying of it, honestly.

I hear how the QB is the most important position on the field ... one team did something to give their QB an advantage and one didn't. The QB with the advantage threw 3/1 TD/INT ratio and completed 65% of his passes. The one who didn't have it (and who was also the #1 pick in the Pro Bowl for the second year in a row) had a 0/1 TD/INT ratio and completed 36%.

It's possible Luck isn't great in the playoffs. It's possible that Brady is just that much better than him in those conditions. It's also possible that the ball would have made a difference and lowered Brady to Luck's level in the game.

Oh well ... it doesn't matter now anyway. The Patriots are in the Super Bowl and it's likely nothing will come of this. It's wasted time even considering anymore at this point.
Just another tainted SB appearance for NE.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

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It's a rule that the balls need to be at a certain level. If not the rule was broken. It's like the rule that player's can't smoke marijuana. Now, I don't think anyone would argue that marijuana is in anyway a performance enhancer. Yet it's still against the rules. Get caught, get punished. The NFL punishes players for wearing the wrong color of socks, or shoes or even gloves. So, they are supposed to look the other way because the balls were intentionally deflated after the refs gave them to the Pats? I find it interesting that Brady was one of the players to push for separate balls for away teams several years ago. The way they manage the balls today is a result of that push. So, have they been doing it for the last several years? Probably.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

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I keep flip flopping on this.

If it's not an advantage why would anyone do it?
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Re: More New England Cheating?

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Cliff wrote:I don't understand the downplaying of it, honestly.

I hear how the QB is the most important position on the field ... one team did something to give their QB an advantage and one didn't. The QB with the advantage threw 3/1 TD/INT ratio and completed 65% of his passes.


He also went 9 for 9 to start the second half and threw 2 of his 3 TDs during that stretch... and all of that was after the officials had addressed the ball problem. So, where did the advantage really manifest itself? It certainly didn't clearly show in Brady's on-field performance. He was better after the balls were inflated to the correct PSI. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm downplaying it because I don't think it's a big deal. I think media are treating it like Watergate because it's a ratings/clicks/paper-selling godsend during the first of two weeks between the conference championships and the Super Bowl and because of the Pats past transgression.

If they cheated, they cheated and as I said earlier in the thread, they should face whatever consequences the league deems necessary but there is very little reason to believe the deflated balls had any serious impact on the outcome of the game.
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Re: More New England Cheating?

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VikingLord wrote:These rules are created by the NFL Competition Committee. If ball pressure were not important, my guess is the Competition Committee wouldn't have created a rule to regulate it. The rules exist because someone in a position to know thought ball pressure was significant, and standardizing it was significant enough to create a rule. So we then have a rule, and knowingly breaking the rule is cheating plain-and-simple.

If enforcing the rule is a significant burden, or the rule itself is unenforceable due to technical considerations, then the affected people (read, coaches, players, refs) should take it back for review by the Competition Committee. They should not simply ignore it and then claim later that ignoring it contributed nothing to the ultimate outcome. That belief (and the seeming willingness of so many to believe it in this case because hey, it's Tom Brady we're talking about here, right?) seems completely unfounded to me. Brady makes his living throwing the ball. Maybe he doesn't throw it or grip it nearly as well if it's properly inflated, which in turn makes his passes less accurate, have less velocity, or perhaps wobble or something as they come out, making it harder for the receiver to adjust and make a solid catch.

It seems like a lot of people have just accepted Bill Belichek as a football equivalent of God, and Tom Brady is his prophet. Their miracles are simply a product of their divinity and those results shouldn't be questioned because they are so darned impressive. They are like magicians, consistently doing what no others can do despite this being a copycat league full of many other very talented, motivated, and smart people. But all accede to the Divine presence of the mighty New England Patriots who merely work *harder*, are *smarter*, and *more* talented than all those other teams and the people on them.
That's an interesting perspective considering they're currently being taken to task on a national level by fans and the media alike. That's hardly worshipful behavior.
Or maybe, just maybe, other factors are at work. Maybe, just maybe, Belichek and Brady have found ways to consistently bend and break the rules to create an unfair advantage and are willing to accept the risk of occasionally getting caught. They might wager (correctly, I would add), that even if they are caught, neither the punishment meted out by the league nor the backlash from fans will be significant enough to deter them from doing it again. Winning is everything, and if you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar a few times, but still end up getting the cookies anyway, then I'd say their calculus is probably accurate.
I'd say so too and that puts them pretty much in line with the history of the league. I'm still waiting for someone here to express outrage at the Vikings heating up footballs on the sideline earlier this season to gain an advantage. They were cheating. They violated the rules and the league warned them about it. Shouldn't we be incensed?

I suspect the turmoil over this topic has a lot less to do with worshipfully putting Belichick and Brady on a pedestal than knocking them off one.
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