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 Making the case for CB Marcus Peters 
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Post Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
I keep going back and forth on Peters and Kevin Johnson as the best corners in the draft. Here's a good read on the case for Peters.

NFL Draft Watch: Why Marcus Peters Is an Elite On-Field Talent

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2260 ... eld-talent

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Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:43 pm
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
I think this is going to be one of the surprises for people who've only been paying casual attention to the draft. One, or both of these guys could go before Trae Waynes. There's been faint rumblings about Waynes' change of direction ability being subpar. I'm also starting to hear Kevin Johnson's name a bit in relation to the best CB discussion. Johnson at #11?


Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:42 pm
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
nightowl wrote:
I think this is going to be one of the surprises for people who've only been paying casual attention to the draft. One, or both of these guys could go before Trae Waynes. There's been faint rumblings about Waynes' change of direction ability being subpar. I'm also starting to hear Kevin Johnson's name a bit in relation to the best CB discussion. Johnson at #11?



It's funny how certain players seem to lose a bit of their luster in draft analysts' eyes in the final weeks before each year's draft. Waynes had been consistently ranked as the top CB in the class and then about a month ago, folks started to question his hips and his change of direction etc. I guess only time will tell, but I'm left to wonder what to make of these tendencies... they happen every year: is it strategical maneuvering of teams that want to make a player they like slide or is it just writers and "draft gurus" that need to create stories that get clicks? Is it the case that one person whose opinion is respected in the field voices critiques and everyone else just parrots it to the point that it becomes a "rumbling"? I felt like a similar thing happened to Barr last year and it led me to question the pick... then Barr played well and was a great match for Zim's D.

BTW, I don't mean this as a critique to any poster here, just an observation of how the media works in influencing fan's perception of players leading up to the draft and the market for our attention... I find it fascinating.


Sun May 03, 2015 9:25 am
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
Texas Vike wrote:
It's funny how certain players seem to lose a bit of their luster in draft analysts' eyes in the final weeks before each year's draft. Waynes had been consistently ranked as the top CB in the class and then about a month ago, folks started to question his hips and his change of direction etc. I guess only time will tell, but I'm left to wonder what to make of these tendencies... they happen every year: is it strategical maneuvering of teams that want to make a player they like slide or is it just writers and "draft gurus" that need to create stories that get clicks? Is it the case that one person whose opinion is respected in the field voices critiques and everyone else just parrots it to the point that it becomes a "rumbling"? I felt like a similar thing happened to Barr last year and it led me to question the pick... then Barr played well and was a great match for Zim's D.


It's probably a combination of all of the above. I also think there's a certain "familiarity breeds contempt' dynamic is involved. There may even be a natural inclination to be contrarian or to want to be surprised that contributes to that near-draft loss of luster. After months of looking at the same players in the top 10 or 15 of a draft, I think there may be a tendency for people to start hoping they will be shocked or surprised on draft night because that's fun. Consequently, they start looking for the flaws in highly-ranked players that might make them slip and they also look at what might push a player up boards. That's one of the reasons we see late risers every year too.

It's a theory anyway... :)

Quote:
BTW, I don't mean this as a critique to any poster here, just an observation of how the media works in influencing fan's perception of players leading up to the draft and the market for our attention... I find it fascinating.


I do too and as you said, it happens every year. I'm convinced it has more to do with the psychology of the evaluators than anything else.


Sun May 03, 2015 10:03 am
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
Mothman wrote:
Texas Vike wrote:
It's funny how certain players seem to lose a bit of their luster in draft analysts' eyes in the final weeks before each year's draft. Waynes had been consistently ranked as the top CB in the class and then about a month ago, folks started to question his hips and his change of direction etc. I guess only time will tell, but I'm left to wonder what to make of these tendencies... they happen every year: is it strategical maneuvering of teams that want to make a player they like slide or is it just writers and "draft gurus" that need to create stories that get clicks? Is it the case that one person whose opinion is respected in the field voices critiques and everyone else just parrots it to the point that it becomes a "rumbling"? I felt like a similar thing happened to Barr last year and it led me to question the pick... then Barr played well and was a great match for Zim's D.


It's probably a combination of all of the above. I also think there's a certain "familiarity breeds contempt' dynamic is involved. There may even be a natural inclination to be contrarian or to want to be surprised that contributes to that near-draft loss of luster. After months of looking at the same players in the top 10 or 15 of a draft, I think there may be a tendency for people to start hoping they will be shocked or surprised on draft night because that's fun. Consequently, they start looking for the flaws in highly-ranked players that might make them slip and they also look at what might push a player up boards. That's one of the reasons we see late risers every year too.

It's a theory anyway... :)

Quote:
BTW, I don't mean this as a critique to any poster here, just an observation of how the media works in influencing fan's perception of players leading up to the draft and the market for our attention... I find it fascinating.


I do too and as you said, it happens every year. I'm convinced it has more to do with the psychology of the evaluators than anything else.



Thanks for your addition to my observations; I think you're spot on with your theory. I'm hoping Waynes pans out. I trust that Zimmer knows what to look for. It is interesting that they made a real point to say that he would COMPETE to start, not anointing him from the get go, as they did with Barr this time last year.


Sun May 03, 2015 8:28 pm
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
Texas Vike wrote:
Thanks for your addition to my observations; I think you're spot on with your theory. I'm hoping Waynes pans out. I trust that Zimmer knows what to look for. It is interesting that they made a real point to say that he would COMPETE to start, not anointing him from the get go, as they did with Barr this time last year.


I noticed that too. In fact, didn't Zimmer also say something like "I expect everyone to compete to start"? I think he wants serious competition and fire from his players this summer.

I'm glad you liked my theory. :)


Mon May 04, 2015 7:13 am
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
Mothman wrote:
It's probably a combination of all of the above. I also think there's a certain "familiarity breeds contempt' dynamic is involved. There may even be a natural inclination to be contrarian or to want to be surprised that contributes to that near-draft loss of luster. After months of looking at the same players in the top 10 or 15 of a draft, I think there may be a tendency for people to start hoping they will be shocked or surprised on draft night because that's fun. Consequently, they start looking for the flaws in highly-ranked players that might make them slip and they also look at what might push a player up boards. That's one of the reasons we see late risers every year too.

It's a theory anyway... :)


Just from my own personal experience I started out watching and liking Waynes. Then I watched a few other corners, including Kevin Johnson and Marcus Peters. Using Waynes as a baseline I just happened to like certain aspects of the latter CBs games better for one reason or another (fluidity, awareness, ball skills, play recognition). And the more I watched them, the more I felt Waynes lacked in a few of these areas in comparison, thus his designation as "consensus top CB" didn't hold water for me anymore and I regulated him much closer to the pack of Johnson, Peters & Jones. And then of course I read some things by a host other analysts/scouts/evaluators that shared some of my concerns and that only reinforced some areas I thought Waynes lacked in comparison. I wasn't trying to be contrarian or one of those hipsters that say they only like those obscure bands nobody has ever heard of ("Guys, Tye Smith from Towson is a stud and so much better than anyone!!"). :)

In the end, I can't really fault the team for the first two picks, even if I'm bummed they couldn't land Miller or Mason in R3. If they had traded down in the first, there's a good chance Waynes would've been gone. If they valued him as highly as they say they did then unless you get quite a bit of compensation for trading down and missing "your guy" (which it doesn't sound like they received) it's simply not worth it. Had they selected DeVante Parker, for example, they still could've landed Kendricks but if they wanted a corner instead they would've been left with Eric Rowe as the BPA at the position (and some think he's better suited for safety) or Ronald Darby. So the thought of Waynes + Kendricks (to me) is > Parker + Rowe/Darby. And had they waited until round 3 for a corner you would've been looking at a guy like Steven Nelson. Though Paul Dawson was there at ILB in R3 so the draft could've been Parker + Rowe + Dawson, which still (to me at least) doesn't look quite as formidable.

Of course, this is all speculation until we see where these guys are in 2-3 years.

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Mon May 04, 2015 8:05 am
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
dead_poet wrote:
Mothman wrote:
It's probably a combination of all of the above. I also think there's a certain "familiarity breeds contempt' dynamic is involved. There may even be a natural inclination to be contrarian or to want to be surprised that contributes to that near-draft loss of luster. After months of looking at the same players in the top 10 or 15 of a draft, I think there may be a tendency for people to start hoping they will be shocked or surprised on draft night because that's fun. Consequently, they start looking for the flaws in highly-ranked players that might make them slip and they also look at what might push a player up boards. That's one of the reasons we see late risers every year too.

It's a theory anyway... :)


Just from my own personal experience I started out watching and liking Waynes. Then I watched a few other corners, including Kevin Johnson and Marcus Peters. Using Waynes as a baseline I just happened to like certain aspects of the latter CBs games better for one reason or another (fluidity, awareness, ball skills, play recognition). And the more I watched them, the more I felt Waynes lacked in a few of these areas in comparison, thus his designation as "consensus top CB" didn't hold water for me anymore and I regulated him much closer to the pack of Johnson, Peters & Jones. And then of course I read some things by a host other analysts/scouts/evaluators that shared some of my concerns and that only reinforced some areas I thought Waynes lacked in comparison. I wasn't trying to be contrarian or one of those hipsters that say they only like those obscure bands nobody has ever heard of ("Guys, Tye Smith from Towson is a stud and so much better than anyone!!"). :)

In the end, I can't really fault the team for the first two picks, even if I'm bummed they couldn't land Miller or Mason in R3. If they had traded down in the first, there's a good chance Waynes would've been gone. If they valued him as highly as they say they did then unless you get quite a bit of compensation for trading down and missing "your guy" (which it doesn't sound like they received) it's simply not worth it. Had they selected DeVante Parker, for example, they still could've landed Kendricks but if they wanted a corner instead they would've been left with Eric Rowe as the BPA at the position (and some think he's better suited for safety) or Ronald Darby. So the thought of Waynes + Kendricks (to me) is > Parker + Rowe/Darby. And had they waited until round 3 for a corner you would've been looking at a guy like Steven Nelson. Though Paul Dawson was there at ILB in R3 so the draft could've been Parker + Rowe + Dawson, which still (to me at least) doesn't look quite as formidable.

Of course, this is all speculation until we see where these guys are in 2-3 years.


Funny analogy to the hipster obscure band tendency. I remember that from the days before hipsters were called "hipsters" :) I guess they were just pre-hipsters.

The other element that was in play was that there wasn't an ILB worthy of pick 11 and our other major need (OL) saw the only player worthy of such a high pick come off the board really early (Scherf). I was kind of thinking they might go with Parker, but I trust that they scouted him hard and decided Waynes was the pick that would help the team more. The one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that Waynes is very confident and capable of shutting WRs down, even if he doesn't get a lot of INTs and even if he is a bit grabby. I anticipate a bit of a learning curve, like there was with Rhodes. I love his 4.31 40 time, but hope he can add some NFL bulk to that skinny frame.


Mon May 04, 2015 10:12 am
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
Texas Vike wrote:
The one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that Waynes is very confident and capable of shutting WRs down, even if he doesn't get a lot of INTs and even if he is a bit grabby. I anticipate a bit of a learning curve, like there was with Rhodes. I love his 4.31 40 time, but hope he can add some NFL bulk to that skinny frame.


I certainly hope he's capable. While he allowed only one touchdown in 2014 (opponents liked to target the other Michigan State corner who was very bad), he allowed at least one reception of 20 yards or more in five games and allowed 14.9 yards per reception. His awareness and play recognition isn't great either, and those are two things I believe are the hardest to "coach." He was #19 in completion percentage allowed (over 50%) last year. Not awful, but not elite. I think he's going to be effective when he plays physical man and his deep speed should be an asset on "go" routes. I worry about the intermediate and routes that require quick recognition and change of direction.

I'm going to give him a lot of slack in year 1. He's going to make some mistakes, which is to be expected. I just hope they aren't consistent and too costly. I also hope he's not out there too early. I wouldn't mind Newman staring the year on the outside opposite Rhodes. Watching the DPI/holding calls will be something to monitor with him, too. I'm more excited to see him in 2016 after a year of great coaching.

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Mon May 04, 2015 10:31 am
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
Texas Vike wrote:
Funny analogy to the hipster obscure band tendency. I remember that from the days before hipsters were called "hipsters" :) I guess they were just pre-hipsters.


That's me: pre-hipster. Most of my friends in college weren't familiar with most of the bands I liked.

I prefer to think I was just ahead of the curve. :)


Mon May 04, 2015 11:28 am
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
dead_poet wrote:
I certainly hope he's capable. While he allowed only one touchdown in 2014 (opponents liked to target the other Michigan State corner who was very bad), he allowed at least one reception of 20 yards or more in five games and allowed 14.9 yards per reception.


I'm curious: to what degree are those two stats connected? In other words, if he didn't allow many receptions most of the time but gave up receptions of 20 yards or more in 5 games, that would obviously drive up the average.

I'm also wondering if any of those longer gains were allowed when they were playing loose coverage and protecting a lead. Maybe not but if so, there is a difference between allowing a big gain while playing prevent and allowing one in a tight game or crucial situation.

Anyway, overall, those numbers don't concern me too much because I have yet to see a corner who didn't give up some big plays. To me, down-to-down performance is more important. WRs are talented and they're going to win some battles so it's really the percentage of battles the CB wins that counts most and if I'm not mistaken, Waynes did well in that department. Obviously, keeping receivers from scoring against you is pretty important too. :)

I'm surprised to hear his awareness and recognition questioned because both seem good to me. Eye of the beholder, eh?


Mon May 04, 2015 11:35 am
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
Mothman wrote:
Texas Vike wrote:
Funny analogy to the hipster obscure band tendency. I remember that from the days before hipsters were called "hipsters" :) I guess they were just pre-hipsters.


That's me: pre-hipster. Most of my friends in college weren't familiar with most of the bands I liked.

I prefer to think I was just ahead of the curve. :)



With the Chicago connection I'm picturing you as a character in the movie "High Fidelity" working at John Cusack's character's record shop: "Oh, you've never heard of the Beta Band?" :lol:


Mon May 04, 2015 12:03 pm
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
Maybe I can help by posting a few of my notes/videos. Note, he obviously makes his share of good plays and can stay in a receiver's hip pocket at times. I'm not expecting him to be perfect here, but maybe I have higher expectations for his draft position.

Vs. Nebraska



This game he is waaaaay too grabby (though he gets screwed late on a play that was more initiated by the receiver). Had a couple of flagrant holding/PI calls and a theme with him is a lot of jersey grabbing.

First play shows him a slow to react.

3:30 -- flagrant PI

4:45 -- slow to react and/or stop/start. Allows 4 yards of separation despite QB throwing off back foot and a completion that shouldn't have been in the NFL

While he's good on "go" routes, he got beat on the one starting at 6:54. Looks like he bit on a stop/go route (or that was just a strange route to begin with).

Vs. Baylor



I'm not sure what happened here at :55 but that was an easy score and it looked like he was barely covering. Maybe he was expecting the fade but that's just horrible.

The very next play (1:07) shows you what I'm talking about with awareness and hip fluidity, but that's hard to defend unless you're reading the QB. The WR may have pushed off a bit but I expect a little more physicality and "fight" than that effort.

He's beaten bad deep at 2:44 and allowed another easy reception the very next play. He may have been slightly injured, though, as he took a big shot earlier in the game and missed a few plays. He also dropped a pretty easy INT/pick 6.

Granted true freshman KD Cannon (whom he was matched up against a lot in this game) is going to be a high draft pick in the draft in a couple of years and someone to watch next season because he does fun things. The kid roasted Michigan State in this one to the tune of 8 catches for 197 yards and 2 TDs, a good amount on Waynes' coverage. A 19 year-old true freshman that's getting the better of our first-round NFL cornerback? Eek. Maybe we can chalk this up to possibly a small injury/bad game but goodness.

Vs. Ohio State



:48 he shows either a lack of awareness or athleticism or a combination of both.

At 2:35 he flips his hips too early and is caught out of position. He allows four yards of separation.

At 4:28 he gets embarrassed by a QB run.

At 4:45 he's not fast enough to save the rushing TD.

Again, I hate being put in position to say I don't like him. I do. I just don't think he's top-11 NFL draft good. He has areas that he really needs to improve. I think he can but I also don't think he's going to be a better pro than Rhodes.

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Mon May 04, 2015 12:48 pm
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
Texas Vike wrote:
With the Chicago connection I'm picturing you as a character in the movie "High Fidelity" working at John Cusack's character's record shop: "Oh, you've never heard of the Beta Band?" :lol:


LOL! I didn't work in one of those shops but I sure frequented a lot of them! I felt like Cusack's character was visiting a bunch of my old hangouts when I watched that movie.


Mon May 04, 2015 12:55 pm
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
Mothman wrote:
Texas Vike wrote:
With the Chicago connection I'm picturing you as a character in the movie "High Fidelity" working at John Cusack's character's record shop: "Oh, you've never heard of the Beta Band?" :lol:


LOL! I didn't work in one of those shops but I sure frequented a lot of them! I felt like Cusack's character was visiting a bunch of my old hangouts when I watched that movie.


Me too! In MPLS it was "Northern Lights" on Hennepin, "Electric Fetus" and later "Cheapo". Ah, the good old days, when you bought your music at a store and interacted with other humans in person about it! :rock:


Mon May 04, 2015 1:13 pm
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
dead_poet wrote:
Maybe I can help by posting a few of my notes/videos. Note, he obviously makes his share of good plays and can stay in a receiver's hip pocket at times. I'm not expecting him to be perfect here, but maybe I have higher expectations for his draft position.

(snip)

Again, I hate being put in position to say I don't like him. I do. I just don't think he's top-11 NFL draft good. He has areas that he really needs to improve. I think he can but I also don't think he's going to be a better pro than Rhodes.


He might not be...

I appreciate the effort you went to in that post. I saw the whole Baylor game and he did struggle in that one, although he was injured so that's a mitigating factor. I've seen the other videos you posted too and I can't argue that some of the plays you pointed to were bad plays. However, my take on that is that basically what I said above: every CB takes a bad angle, allows a TD, gives up an easy completion, etc. at times. I've never seen one who didn't so while I see evidence of that stuff on film of Waynes, and I definitely think he has flaws in his game that need improving, I find his overall body of work quite good. Regarding whether or not he's "top-11 NFL draft good": you know me, where he's picked doesn't matter much to me. If he was projected as a third-rounder then it would bug me but I'm fine with where they drafted him. He certainly wasn't going to be available in another round.

I hope none of that sounds dismissive. I see an occasional lack of awareness in his game but I see the opposite more often. I like what Zimmer said:

Quote:
“I felt like he could help us a whole lot in a lot of different ways. Everybody bases the Pro Bowl on how many interceptions you get and you may get six or eight interceptions a year, I look at penalties and how many times you deny your guy the football and you have the chance to do that 40 times a ball game, so I think that’s important for our corners here.”


I think that's a great way to look at it.


Mon May 04, 2015 1:19 pm
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
Texas Vike wrote:
Me too! In MPLS it was "Northern Lights" on Hennepin, "Electric Fetus" and later "Cheapo". Ah, the good old days, when you bought your music at a store and interacted with other humans in person about it! :rock:


It was nice.:) I could hang out in those places and look through the record bins for hidden gems for hours.


Mon May 04, 2015 1:20 pm
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
Mothman wrote:
I appreciate the effort you went to in that post. I saw the whole Baylor game and he did struggle in that one, although he was injured so that's a mitigating factor. I've seen the other videos you posted too and I can't argue that some of the plays you pointed to were bad plays. However, my take on that is that basically what I said above: every CB takes a bad angle, allows a TD, gives up an easy completion, etc. at times. I've never seen one who didn't so while I see evidence of that stuff on film of Waynes, and I definitely think he has flaws in his game that need improving, I find his overall body of work quite good. Regarding whether or not he's "top-11 NFL draft good": you know me, where he's picked doesn't matter much to me. If he was projected as a third-rounder then it would bug me but I'm fine with where they drafted him. He certainly wasn't going to be available in another round.

I hope none of that sounds dismissive. I see an occasional lack of awareness in his game but I see the opposite more often. I like what Zimmer said:

Quote:
“I felt like he could help us a whole lot in a lot of different ways. Everybody bases the Pro Bowl on how many interceptions you get and you may get six or eight interceptions a year, I look at penalties and how many times you deny your guy the football and you have the chance to do that 40 times a ball game, so I think that’s important for our corners here.”


I think that's a great way to look at it.


I know it looked like nitpicking but I was trying to get a representative sample. Are these issues chronic? Can they be fixed? I have no idea. As long as he ends up denying a reception more often than allowing one, great. Then we can talk about to what degree. :) He has a lot what you look for in a quality corner, including a willingness to learn. We all know Zimmer is going to be hard on him (as he was Rhodes) and he seems open to that. I think he can improve. Hopefully he helps make the defense even more formidable in pass protection and rush support. I could care less if he gets 13 interceptions or one. As long as he's not allowing a lot of completions, I'll be happy. I'll be excited to see him in camp.

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Mon May 04, 2015 1:33 pm
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
dead_poet wrote:
I know it looked like nitpicking but I was trying to get a representative sample.


No worries. Your intent was clear and I know you aren't down on Waynes, just a little concerned about aspects of his game. I feel the same way about Kendricks. I love his motor and his production but it seems to me he can play a little over-aggressive or out of control at times and I'm not sure if his size will prove detrimental against a power running game. I hope not.

Quote:
Are these issues chronic? Can they be fixed? I have no idea. As long as he ends up denying a reception more often than allowing one, great. Then we can talk about to what degree. :) He has a lot what you look for in a quality corner, including a willingness to learn. We all know Zimmer is going to be hard on him (as he was Rhodes) and he seems open to that. I think he can improve. Hopefully he helps make the defense even more formidable in pass protection and rush support. I could care less if he gets 13 interceptions or one. As long as he's not allowing a lot of completions, I'll be happy. I'll be excited to see him in camp.


Well said.

Heck, I don't even worry so much about completions. If he does a good job of preventing big plays and scoring plays, and if he's effective on third down, that's what matters most to me. I take that back: fitting well into a defense that accomplishes those goals is what matters most to me. :)


Mon May 04, 2015 2:07 pm
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
Baylor did that to everyone this year! They routinely put up 40 to 70 points per game. I have to think part of the issue was scheme. I also think Bryce Petty was one heck of a QB--very accurate all over the field. I would've loved him in the 4th.


Mon May 04, 2015 4:51 pm
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Post Re: Making the case for CB Marcus Peters
Mothman wrote:
Texas Vike wrote:
With the Chicago connection I'm picturing you as a character in the movie "High Fidelity" working at John Cusack's character's record shop: "Oh, you've never heard of the Beta Band?" :lol:


LOL! I didn't work in one of those shops but I sure frequented a lot of them! I felt like Cusack's character was visiting a bunch of my old hangouts when I watched that movie.


Record guy here too!


Mon May 04, 2015 4:59 pm
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