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 Michael Sam and the Vikings 
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
fiestavike wrote:
mondry wrote:
As for the rest of that stuff, our "off the charts" Intelligence is the driving factor. Genetics and upbringing are indeed huge factors but the greater ones individual intelligence is, the more likely they are able to create a different path, rather than just follow the one instilled into them. Some people of course fail to become any thing other than what they were raised to be and thus the chain continues into the next generation.



I'm not sure how you are making the leap to the idea that intelligence is somehow outside of genetics or environment.

Our degree of intelligence is the product of our genetics, first as a living entity, next as a human being generally, then as a human being compared to other human beings, and then environmentally, starting in the womb, and following on to every event, word, feeling, etc we experience.

Since there is no room for a divine imprint of the image and likeness of God within a secular worldview, the material is all that remains, and there is rationally no possibility of free will within this purely materialist worldview. Its merely an illusion. In fact, me typing these words was an inevitability since the moment I was first conceived if there is no God. And whatever you do next was also inevitable since the moment you were conceived if there is no God.


Interesting take, thanks!


Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:12 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
dead_poet wrote:
NFL players reactions

NFL Nation Says: Michael Sam

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/ ... ichael-sam


I like what Felton had to say in this article. Basically the biggest challenges he will face is the same ones that everyone faces. Gotta play well enough to even make the team. Nobodys contract is guaranteed.

I also believe that not a whole lot will change in the NFL, and why should it? I don't see this as much different than any of my co-workers coming out and saying hey Im gay. In general I would wonder why they are telling me, and outside of that, it would be business as usual.


Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:47 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Ah Cliff, you erased your post. Was about to tell you, that my girlfriend would love you.


Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:06 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
KSViking wrote:
Ah Cliff, you erased your post. Was about to tell you, that my girlfriend would love you.


Yeah, it's so far off topic with the religion stuff that I didn't want to stir the pot any more. I considered making a post about it in the Vikings bar but I kind of get the feeling it would end up as an “agree to disagree” kind of conversation.

I fashion myself an amateur student of evolution and it’s hard for me pass up on the design conversation.

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Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:51 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
NextQuestion wrote:
If you did any reading on Hernandez, NE told him to stay out of trouble and he gets charged for murder and gets linked to a double murder. The deck is not in AH's favor and that's why Kraft and Belichick said "no way we keep him".

Ray Lewis was very lucky to keep playing and not get suspended. I find it funny that people like Lewis, Vick, Big Ben, Perish Cox, Chris Cook, etc are welcome with open arms but a gay player? Noooooooooooo

Hopefully King James punched a cat a cooled off from yesterday.


My point is that there will be players who support him, and there will be people who don't support him. Not all NFL players will look at it the way you look at it. As much as NFL teams like to cover up hazing it happens. And by Michael Sam being rookie he's going to get picked on like all the other rookies. One or two players might pick on him because he's gay. It's going to be a distraction because no NFL team has dealt with an openly gay player before like this.

I wish him a successful NFL career but I know it's some guys that are going to give him a hard time. That's not his fault but that's the way life is. Not everyone is going to like your lifestyle.


Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:01 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
King James wrote:
NextQuestion wrote:
If you did any reading on Hernandez, NE told him to stay out of trouble and he gets charged for murder and gets linked to a double murder. The deck is not in AH's favor and that's why Kraft and Belichick said "no way we keep him".

Ray Lewis was very lucky to keep playing and not get suspended. I find it funny that people like Lewis, Vick, Big Ben, Perish Cox, Chris Cook, etc are welcome with open arms but a gay player? Noooooooooooo

Hopefully King James punched a cat a cooled off from yesterday.


My point is that there will be players who support him, and there will be people who don't support him. Not all NFL players will look at it the way you look at it. As much as NFL teams like to cover up hazing it happens. And by Michael Sam being rookie he's going to get picked on like all the other rookies. One or two players might pick on him because he's gay. It's going to be a distraction because no NFL team has dealt with an openly gay player before like this.

I wish him a successful NFL career but I know it's some guys that are going to give him a hard time. That's not his fault but that's the way life is. Not everyone is going to like your lifestyle.


I'm willing to bet the fans make it a bigger deal than any teammate.

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Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:36 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Cliff wrote:

I'm willing to bet the fans make it a bigger deal than any teammate.


There was actually a segment on NFL AM where they were talking about how the attitude would be in the lockeroom if he were to step in. I can't remember the two players but both were like it would be mixed. You mature players who could probably overlook his sexual preference, then you have those immature players who might try to pick on him. A couple of players have already tweeted how they didn't agree with his views. Man I wish I could remember these players names but all I can tell you that it was on the NFL Network when I was watching it.

No doubt fans will blow it up but I think some players will make a big deal about it too. I don't know if one will be bigger than the other. But im willing to bet that whatever team he lands on, someone is going to get in trouble for harassing him.


Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:02 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Valhalla wrote:
Sometimes I think the Christianity bashers should have their way, this pointless nonsense would have us bowing to Mecca 3 times a day and women having to wear hijabs and not even having the right to drive and would see millions starve that charities feed, atheists haven't brought anything to their fellowmen. But if they want to tout Margaret Sanger pushing their abortion values to the Ku Klux Klan, then let's listen to secularists. Planned Parenthood clinics targetting black neighborhoods and black women being 5 times more likely to abort, while some doctors dispose of babies already born as routine like Dr. Gosnell, I guess that's what their values are more about.


:wtf:

Ah yes, non-Christians are to blame for all the bad, and Christians are responsible for all the good.

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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Again, :wtf: Your randomness is...always interesting.

Christians don't get abortions, or what? Ever? What a crock.

I don't even get your point. You're being so simplistic about it: Christians good; Non-Christians bad. Oogah oogah.

If you must, how about placing blame on the individual, especially concerning very personal issues like abortion, not an entire group or organization? Try that.

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Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:32 am
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Well, we have to end apartheid for one. And slow down the nuclear arms race, stop terrorism and world hunger. We have to provide food and shelter for the homeless, and oppose racial discrimination and promote civil rights, while also promoting equal rights for women. We have to encourage a return to traditional moral values. Most importantly, we have to promote general social concern and less materialism in young people.

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Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:07 am
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
frosted21 wrote:
Did you guys know..

The Main Library at Indiana University sinks over an inch every year because when it was built, engineers failed to take into account the weight of all the books that would occupy the building?

Or that...

A hedgehog's heart beats 300 times a minute on average?


Wrong on both counts! See:

http://www.ask.com/question/how-many-times-does-a-hedgehogs-heart-beat-per-minute; and
http://www.snopes.com/college/halls/sinking.asp

8) :P

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Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:15 am
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Valhalla wrote:
Sometimes I think the Christianity bashers should have their way, this pointless nonsense would have us bowing to Mecca 3 times a day and women having to wear hijabs and not even having the right to drive and would see millions starve that charities feed, atheists haven't brought anything to their fellowmen. But if they want to tout Margaret Sanger pushing their abortion values to the Ku Klux Klan, then let's listen to secularists. Planned Parenthood clinics targetting black neighborhoods and black women being 5 times more likely to abort, while some doctors dispose of babies already born as routine like Dr. Gosnell, I guess that's what their values are more about.


That doesn't make any sense! You seem practically brainwashed to me! Atheists haven't done anything for man? Science is the reason we can affordably feed millions of people. Antibiotics and advanced discoveries in medicine are the reason billions of people throughout history are alive today or lived much longer than they would have. A lot of extremely important human inventions have come from Atheists, Agnostics, or at least not christians. Guys like Albert Einstein, who helped develop the Atom bomb which helped immensely for winning WW2, and if it wasn't for our science outpacing Hitlers we'd be saluting Berlin 3x a day! (lol see, I can do that too!) You guys are so quick to bring up secularism but the last time religion was truly in control, europe went through a 500 year period of stagnation and regression, often referred to as the dark ages.

Another thing that drives me nuts about you guys is how hypocritical you are about doing whatever you can in your power to make sure that baby gets born but AFTER that you couldn't give a crap about some "black" baby right? And I'm sure you complain to your friends / family every year about having to pay extra taxes for welfare and all that. So why would you fight so hard for a baby to be born, even if it's parents can't afford it, if you're so upset (and not very christian btw) about helping that family out via a welfare tax!

Oh what could have been!


Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:25 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
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On Michael Sam announcing he's openly gay, Spielman thinks it's wrong if that impacts his draft status with an NFL team. "I know that we will make sure that our culture is created where he could fit in to our locker room" Spielman on if #Vikings pick Sam

@MasterStrib on Twitter

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Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:39 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
dead_poet wrote:
Quote:
On Michael Sam announcing he's openly gay, Spielman thinks it's wrong if that impacts his draft status with an NFL team. "I know that we will make sure that our culture is created where he could fit in to our locker room" Spielman on if #Vikings pick Sam

@MasterStrib on Twitter


He better say that! :lol: I wonder if he is being sincere or just trying to make it look good.

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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Funkytown wrote:
Again, :wtf: Your randomness is...always interesting.

Christians don't get abortions, or what? Ever? What a crock.

I don't even get your point. You're being so simplistic about it: Christians good; Non-Christians bad. Oogah oogah.

If you must, how about placing blame on the individual, especially concerning very personal issues like abortion, not an entire group or organization? Try that.


LOL how about you try that. I have never seen anyone make such broad blanket statements. You take one extreme remark, and then take it to the exact other extreme, as if that makes it right. Theres always a middle ground.


Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:31 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Funkytown wrote:
dead_poet wrote:
Quote:
On Michael Sam announcing he's openly gay, Spielman thinks it's wrong if that impacts his draft status with an NFL team. "I know that we will make sure that our culture is created where he could fit in to our locker room" Spielman on if #Vikings pick Sam

@MasterStrib on Twitter


He better say that! :lol: I wonder if he is being sincere or just trying to make it look good.


Kluwe will tell us later. He is working with NSA as we speak, and already has lawsuits in the works for those NFL teams that haven't put in a good for for Sam (all the offices are bugged). I mean the guy is gay, that's all that matters, what are they waiting for? The next State of the Union address Obama can have Sam standing next to that gay NBA guy...because that's whats important. For those of us that don't give a flying F about what sexuality someone is, we have it force feed on us.


Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:36 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
PurpleKoolaid wrote:

LOL how about you try that. I have never seen anyone make such broad blanket statements. You take one extreme remark, and then take it to the exact other extreme, as if that makes it right.


Examples? :D Or do you mean my sarcastic responses to those extreme remarks?

Probably shouldn't take those too seriously, smarts.

Quote:
Theres always a middle ground.


Yep, and I'm usually all about it. Usually.

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Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:54 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Saw some quoted tweet by Brian Hall (Fox Sports) by Spielman that says "I don't care if a guy has three heads". Pretty sure that means "don't care as long as he makes us a better team"

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Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:18 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
NextQuestion wrote:
Saw some quoted tweet by Brian Hall (Fox Sports) by Spielman that says "I don't care if a guy has three heads". Pretty sure that means "don't care as long as he makes us a better team"


That's good. Hopefully he's finding a few guys in the draft to do just that! ...and free agency, off the streets, whatever.

I don't care! Find 'em!

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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
mondry wrote:
Atheists haven't done anything for man? Science is the reason we can affordably feed millions of people. Antibiotics and advanced discoveries in medicine are the reason billions of people throughout history are alive today or lived much longer than they would have. A lot of extremely important human inventions have come from Atheists, Agnostics, or at least not christians. Guys like Albert Einstein, who helped develop the Atom bomb which helped immensely for winning WW2, and if it wasn't for our science outpacing Hitler's we'd be saluting Berlin 3x a day!


Here is a list of scientists who were also Christians. It is proper to point out that not all scientists are Christians (or believe in God) but the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Some of science's greatest contributors have been Christians.

I want to set the record straight on a couple of items though: Einstein never worked directly on the Atom Bomb, he was thought to be a 'security risk.' It is a commonly held belief, but it is not true. Secondly, our science didn't outpace Hitler's. Our industrial might did. So while the Germans were able to produce technology that was superior to the Allies, they lacked the industrial capability to produce a sufficient quantity of these weapons to overcome their quantitative deficiency. Proof of the pudding, is the number of German scientists incorporated into the Space program after the defeat of Germany (both the Russian and the USA) as the Germans had already developed a sub-orbital rocket during WW2 (the V-2 rocket).

I read somewhere once: "Hypocrisy, self-deception, and intellectual dishonesty are all pretty much invisible to those infected with it. So there's a very good chance we all have some form of it that's as glaringly obvious to others as theirs is to us. Anyway, ideas are true or false because of how they correspond to reality, not how their believers do." Einstein was (for all practical purposes) an agnostic so if one were to suggest that only Christians have brought good things to civilization that would be disingenuous. If anything, though, the fact that Einstein didn't work directly on the bomb actually helps your argument, as he was responsible for revolutionizing physics (going beyond the Newtonian model) and some people consider the bomb to be 'evil.' (I happen to think it saved far more lives than it took, but that's a whole different debate).

I'd still prefer we lose the labels (i.e. all Christians are hypocrites; or all gays are 'gross', etc.) and treat people as complex individuals. But, it is understandable when both sides of a debate believe they have morality on their side, things get a little 'emotional.'

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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Just Me wrote:

I want to set the record straight on a couple of items though: Einstein never worked directly on the Atom Bomb, he was thought to be a 'security risk.' It is a commonly held belief, but it is not true. Secondly, our science didn't outpace Hitler's. Our industrial might did. So while the Germans were able to produce technology that was superior to the Allies, they lacked the industrial capability to produce a sufficient quantity of these weapons to overcome their quantitative deficiency. Proof of the pudding, is the number of German scientists incorporated into the Space program after the defeat of Germany (both the Russian and the USA) as the Germans had already developed a sub-orbital rocket during WW2 (the V-2 rocket).


Interesting about Einstein, but either way, we made the finished product first (or at least used the finished product first!) so something had to of gone right in that department. You're exactly right about our industrial capability though "Carrying" the load until we got to that point. Not sure on the exact words but a joke from the German tank commanders goes something like "we could destroy 9 ally tanks for everyone one of ours, but they always had a 10th." And that went for the American Shermans and the Russian t34's. The cannons often couldn't even penetrate the armor of the tiger tanks so the russians started ramming the tigers to see if that would work lol. In the end, Russian Winter might have been the best weapon the ally's had against the Tigers.

Yeah during the cold war capturing #### scientists was a top priority for both sides. Wernher von Braun is a name everyone should know more about.


Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:46 am
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Just read some of the religious talk on here. Interesting.

Do you like Phil Collins?

I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, "Duke". Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on "Duke" where Phil Collins' presence became more apparent. I think "Invisible Touch" was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums. Listen to the brilliant ensemble playing of Banks, Collins and Rutherford. You can practically hear every nuance of every instrument. In terms of lyrical craftsmanship, the sheer songwriting, this album hits a new peak of professionalism. Take the lyrics to "Land of Confusion", in this song, Phil Collins addresses the problems of abusive political authority.

"In Too Deep" is the most moving pop song of the 1980s, about monogamy and commitment. The song is extremely uplifting. Their lyrics are as positive and affirmative as anything I've heard in rock. Phil Collins' solo career seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying, in a narrower way. Especially songs like "In the Air Tonight" and "Against All Odds". But I also think Phil Collins works best within the confines of the group, than as a solo artist, and I stress the word artist. This is "Sussudio", a great, great song, a personal favorite.

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Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:21 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
You and your music talk ;), but Against All Odds is the best. Great tune. :)

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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
NextQuestion wrote:

Do you like Phil Collins?

I've been a big Genesis fan ever since the release of their 1980 album, "Duke". Before that, I really didn't understand any of their work. Too artsy, too intellectual. It was on "Duke" where Phil Collins' presence became more apparent. I think "Invisible Touch" was the group's undisputed masterpiece. It's an epic meditation on intangibility. At the same time, it deepens and enriches the meaning of the preceding three albums. Listen to the brilliant ensemble playing of Banks, Collins and Rutherford. You can practically hear every nuance of every instrument. In terms of lyrical craftsmanship, the sheer songwriting, this album hits a new peak of professionalism. Take the lyrics to "Land of Confusion", in this song, Phil Collins addresses the problems of abusive political authority.

"In Too Deep" is the most moving pop song of the 1980s, about monogamy and commitment. The song is extremely uplifting. Their lyrics are as positive and affirmative as anything I've heard in rock. Phil Collins' solo career seems to be more commercial and therefore more satisfying, in a narrower way. Especially songs like "In the Air Tonight" and "Against All Odds". But I also think Phil Collins works best within the confines of the group, than as a solo artist, and I stress the word artist. This is "Sussudio", a great, great song, a personal favorite.


American Psycho, correct? Was your intent to imply something?

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Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:34 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Finally! :)

I've just been having fun with this thread now for the past few posts.

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Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:17 pm
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
NextQuestion wrote:
Finally! :)

I've just been having fun with this thread now for the past few posts.


:P

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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
NextQuestion wrote:
Finally! :)

I've just been having fun with this thread now for the past few posts.


If I had no sense of humor, I would long ago have committed suicide. :beerchug:

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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
There are those we encounter in life whose opinions remain entrenched regardless of the facts. The question is, is there value in trying to change their minds, knowing that reason will barely dent their armor? For me, I have slowly discovered I have better things to do than tilt at completely unreasonable windmills. They will frustrate you to the point of sarcasm and frustration, and no one watching the discussion unfold will be swayed by either. There are some truly ignorant and hateful things being thrown out from all sides. I have resorted to use of the "foe" feature on some of the most hateful and ignorant. Some may find my intolerance for those who are unreasonable to be hypocritical. That may be true. But I am convinced that nothing I say will sway them, and there is greater reward in hoping that somehow they find a better path and focus on having productive discussions.

As for Michael Sam, he seems built to be an overachiever. Undersized, not a clear fit as DE or LB, but a high-character guy with a great work ethic. Based on that, I'm cheering for him to succeed. Unless he becomes a Packer, of course.

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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
BGM wrote:
There are those we encounter in life whose opinions remain entrenched regardless of the facts. The question is, is there value in trying to change their minds, knowing that reason will barely dent their armor? For me, I have slowly discovered I have better things to do than tilt at completely unreasonable windmills. They will frustrate you to the point of sarcasm and frustration, and no one watching the discussion unfold will be swayed by either. There are some truly ignorant and hateful things being thrown out from all sides. I have resorted to use of the "foe" feature on some of the most hateful and ignorant. Some may find my intolerance for those who are unreasonable to be hypocritical. That may be true. But I am convinced that nothing I say will sway them, and there is greater reward in hoping that somehow they find a better path and focus on having productive discussions.

As for Michael Sam, he seems built to be an overachiever. Undersized, not a clear fit as DE or LB, but a high-character guy with a great work ethic. Based on that, I'm cheering for him to succeed. Unless he becomes a Packer, of course.


Why would you cheer for him over any other kid out there that's trying to make it in the NFL as a LB/DE? That's what I don't get. All this talk about it, and just not here. Like he is something special. And hes not. Heck, half the people don't even know what position he will play. But because he said he likes guys, lets all wish him the best! I just don't get it.


Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:35 am
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Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
PurpleKoolaid wrote:
Why would you cheer for him over any other kid out there that's trying to make it in the NFL as a LB/DE? That's what I don't get. All this talk about it, and just not here. Like he is something special. And hes not. Heck, half the people don't even know what position he will play. But because he said he likes guys, lets all wish him the best! I just don't get it.


That's a valid question, but what's the alternative? (I'm assuming we don't want to wish him the worst?). He's going to garner attention (whether it's unwanted or not) because of the historic precedent of an openly gay player entering the NFL draft. Brian's statement focused on attributes that I think we all hold in high regard ("he seems built to be an overachiever. Undersized, not a clear fit as DE or LB, but a high-character guy with a great work ethic.") except for "undersized" part which usually activates the "Underdog" impulse in all of us. Who doesn't like a good underdog story a la John Randle (undrafted player who eventually makes it to the Hall of Fame, etc.). Brian also clearly stated based on that (previously mentioned attributes) he was hoping Sam succeeded.

In the end, it will be about how the person plays on the field. Wishing him the best, seems the 'decent thing' to do, wouldn't you agree? (Unless he's a Packer - In which case he is automatically considered 'scum' :wink: )

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