View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:40 pm



This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 255 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 Michael Sam and the Vikings 
Author Message
All Pro Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:23 pm
Posts: 1736
Location: Alabama
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
saint33 wrote:

Quote:
Incorrect, gays can and do reproduce. They cannot reproduce with each other

That's what I meant.

And who are you to decide how men or women are supposed to act? Because they don't act the way you act, or the way you were raised, or the way you believe is "right" that makes them immoral? Is it then also immoral to believe in different religions than you? Or to not believe in any religion at all?

as for the rest of your post, ignorance really is bliss I guess


And who are you to think my views are ignorant???? :lol: If I think it's immoral then that's what I believe in. If you endorse men sticking each other in the bum then that's you. But I do not support that lifestyle. Does that mean I hate you? No. Why do I have to support gay views? Tell me.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:16 pm
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:43 am
Posts: 2250
Location: Minneapolis
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
getting off topic:

Quote:
Henderson and McKinney were not charged with a hate crime, because no Wyoming criminal statute provided for such a charge.


Quote:
The Matthew Shepard Act was adopted as an amendment to S.1390 by a vote of 63-28 on July 15, 2009


The act is related to hate crimes.


King James: You said people of incest are probably deformed. That's what I wanted facts on, not if homosexuals can reproduce. By your logic of me having a Kluwe AVI = me being homosexual....you must be too since you seem to enjoy men slapping butts and running into each other on Sunday afternoons

_________________
Pull yr 84 jerseys out.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:18 pm
Profile
Commissioner
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:30 pm
Posts: 23669
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
King James wrote:
saint33 wrote:

Quote:
Incorrect, gays can and do reproduce. They cannot reproduce with each other

That's what I meant.

And who are you to decide how men or women are supposed to act? Because they don't act the way you act, or the way you were raised, or the way you believe is "right" that makes them immoral? Is it then also immoral to believe in different religions than you? Or to not believe in any religion at all?

as for the rest of your post, ignorance really is bliss I guess


Why do I have to support gay views? Tell me.


You do know that "gay views" are human views, right? A gay person might have the same opinions as you on sports, religion, politics, art, education, movies, etc. "Gay views" are not limited to (I can't believe I'm going to type this): "men sticking each other in the bum."

_________________
“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:21 pm
Profile
All Pro Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:28 am
Posts: 1653
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Superman wrote:
NextQuestion wrote:
Superman wrote:


Accepting homosexuality isn't edgy, trendy, or PC. It's just loving your fellow human beings.



I can have love for someone without accepting and supporting the entirety of their actions and choices. Nor do I have to judge them or have an opinion at all, which is ideal. The problem arises when it is no longer adequate to just lack an opinion, or say "none of my business", as it is quickly becoming. Even the tone of your posts imply that there are only two options: accept and support that individual, or hate and condemn them... Which is NOT the case at all.



I've seen example sentences on here saying "I love him/her despite they're alcoholic or they're an adulterer". Those are actions that are viewed bad in society. One is a disease that sticks with you, and one is morally bad. Being a homosexual isn't a bad thing.[/quote]

Not sure what that has to do with what "I" said, but I'll bite and sway topics with you. Some would disagree that homosexuality is not a bad thing, just as some disapprove of a vegetarian diet. I am a Christian, and choose to opt out of judging others (as best I can, I'm only human) which falls in accordance with what God has called us to do anyway, to judge not. But because my relationship with God is so important to me, I willfully choose not to accept and support homosexuality... But let's not mistake this with the hatred or condemnation of those who do. I feel as though many of you (and EVERY writer on nfl.com) are making that absent connection, conveniently. I also do not believe someone is born gay (and we can do the nature /nurture thing all day), but I don't feel as though stressed S's, a knack for interior design, or sexual attraction is a biological or inherited trait. I like brunette's with brown eyes, but not because I have the (hot for brunette's) gene, it because Jennifer Love Hewitt was my first Hollywood crush growing up and I've kind of subconsciously set her as a standard. (To much info? Probably)[/quote]

I'm going to stick to just the last part about Jennifer Love Hewitt, because that is an extremely poor choice to argue that homosexuality is not genetic (even though it has scientifically proven to be, but whatever).

You're preference in the type of women does not negate the fact that women are who you are biologically attracted to. It has nothing to do with choice. You happened to have a crush on Jennifer Love Hewitt, which has made you prefer brunettes, but why were you attracted to her in the first place, rather than say Freddie Prince Jr.? Why were you not sexually stimulated by a man the same way you were stimulated by a woman?

_________________
Image


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:21 pm
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:43 am
Posts: 2250
Location: Minneapolis
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
King James wrote:
saint33 wrote:

Quote:
Incorrect, gays can and do reproduce. They cannot reproduce with each other

That's what I meant.

And who are you to decide how men or women are supposed to act? Because they don't act the way you act, or the way you were raised, or the way you believe is "right" that makes them immoral? Is it then also immoral to believe in different religions than you? Or to not believe in any religion at all?

as for the rest of your post, ignorance really is bliss I guess


And who are you to think my views are ignorant???? :lol: If I think it's immoral then that's what I believe in. If you endorse men sticking each other in the bum then that's you. But I do not support that lifestyle. Does that mean I hate you? No. Why do I have to support gay views? Tell me.


We think your views are ignorant because of the way you handle yourself. You wouldn't talk to your cousin unless he was dying? You don't show a lot of compassion and love for even people close to you. You make generalizations of homosexuals while admitting you won't get close to them. How do you know homosexuals in your area, for which I doubt you know any, come from broken homes? Did you know that Whitney Houston had four #1 singles on her debut LP, simply titled, "Whitney Houston"?

It's hard to choose a favorite among so many great tracks, but "The Greatest Love of All" is one of the best, most powerful songs ever written about self-preservation, dignity. Its universal message crosses all boundaries and instills one with the hope that it's not too late to better ourselves. Since, King James, it's impossible in this world we live in to empathize with others, we can always empathize with ourselves. It's an important message, crucial really. And it's beautifully stated on the album.

_________________
Pull yr 84 jerseys out.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:24 pm
Profile
All Pro Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:23 pm
Posts: 1736
Location: Alabama
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
NextQuestion wrote:


King James: You said people of incest are probably deformed. That's what I wanted facts on, not if homosexuals can reproduce. By your logic of me having a Kluwe AVI = me being homosexual....you must be too since you seem to enjoy men slapping butts and running into each other on Sunday afternoons



What?????? So I guess that makes every football fan and player homosexual then? :lol: :lol: Slapping a player on the butt does not mean, "I want you." It means good job. You probably never played football before so no surprised you didn't know. Running into each other is how the game is meant to be played right? Is the guy suppose to not tackle a player because he's scared that it might look gay? Worst comparison ever. :lol: Oh my goodness, you are freaking hilarious!!!!!!

The fact that you look at football as men slapping each other butts and running into each other really makes me think you could be homosexual. But if men is what you like, I can't stop you.


Last edited by King James on Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:26 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:53 pm
Posts: 8438
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
fiestavike wrote:
NextQuestion wrote:
Why is it a strange idea of love?



because love does not consist solely of trying to make someone feel good or of accepting everything they do. Any parent knows this. At times love is to do something that upsets or hurts the very one you love because you know or believe it is in their best interest. Of course, as any parent can tell you, at times we disapprove of the actions of the ones we love.

I find your position that to disapprove of one's action equates to not loving that person to be really an unfair accusation or at least a very strange accusation based on a very strange conception of what it is to love another person.

I'm not trying to convince you that homoeroticism is wrong, I just want to encourage a more sensible and civil discussion than what is going on here-and in this country and the western world-, which is pretty pathetic on both sides frankly. Imagine, if you can, that you believe someone is doing real damage to their spiritual self through fornication, adultery, homoeroticism, etc. I know this will likely require you to use some imagination and empathy but put yourself into the shoes of one who believes that these acts spiritually harm those who commit them. Is it really difficult to see how you could disapprove of that act specifically because you love the individual committing it? In fact, the more you love that individual the more you might object to the spiritual harm they are doing to themselves. This is pretty easy to see isn't it? Why denigrate your "opposition" when it is really very easy to understand that they are frequently approaching a sensitive issue with love and care and compassion and doing the best they can to deal with it? You may find their philosophical or theological opinions without merit, in which case it is really more sensible to discuss those issues rather than leaping ahead to homosexuality in particular.


I appreciate the fact that you want to have a civil discussion and I'll try do my best to keep this respectful. I think it's really easy for either side to be so convinced they're "right" that it actually becomes hard to "explain" why.

What you're posting basically sounds like religion to me. Instead of using Heaven or Hell, you're substituting "spiritual harm" and to me it sounds like you think if we do enough spiritual harm to ourselves bad things will happen. (Hell)

The problem I have with that mentality is there are religious fanatics (and I don't know if you are one or not) that don't care about the "sinner" at all. You don't see the 3 straight guys beating up the gay kid because they want to "save his soul" and give him some tough love. You don't see the fanatics picketing the abortion clinic to prevent her from harming her spiritual soul.

What they're doing isn't because they care about the person, what they're doing is taking it upon themselves to enforce their beliefs onto other people. So forgive me if I'm extremely skeptical when someone says "we just want to help them not commit spiritual harm to themselves".

Even if you're genuine in what you say, and I do believe there are religious people who are genuine. One of the same things in your post that you want us to imagine is actually the same exact thing I would say to you. Imagine you might be wrong, that there is no god, or heaven and hell, and that people don't need to avoid "spiritual harm" in the first place. By believing there is such a thing, and trying to "help people" who clearly don't share that belief, a great deal of harm and pain gets inflicted on them in the process. Maybe not by you specifically, but by like I said, the fanatics.

I don't mind if people are religious nor am I going to say religion is the problem but you guys really need to lead by example! Personally I believe in being a good person because that's how I'd want to be treated! I don't think beating up gays or heckling woman who are already in a lot of stress is the right thing to do nor do I think Jesus or God or whatever would be impressed by that.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:34 pm
Profile
All Pro Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:28 am
Posts: 1653
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
King James wrote:
saint33 wrote:

Quote:
Incorrect, gays can and do reproduce. They cannot reproduce with each other

That's what I meant.

And who are you to decide how men or women are supposed to act? Because they don't act the way you act, or the way you were raised, or the way you believe is "right" that makes them immoral? Is it then also immoral to believe in different religions than you? Or to not believe in any religion at all?

as for the rest of your post, ignorance really is bliss I guess


And who are you to think my views are ignorant???? :lol: If I think it's immoral then that's what I believe in. If you endorse men sticking each other in the bum then that's you. But I do not support that lifestyle. Does that mean I hate you? No. Why do I have to support gay views? Tell me.



I am someone who is informed. Ignorance is not a matter of opinion, it is a lack or refusal to accept facts and knowledge.

I support gay people for the same reason I support straight people. Because that is the way they were born. I am not personally attracted to men, nor do I want to engage in anal sex with a man, but that is because I am attracted to women and have been all my life. I was not taught to be attracted to women, it has been engrained in me since the moment I was born. I don't have the same chemical reaction to an attractive male asI do an attractive female. To put it simply, I HAVE NO CHOICE. Gay men are born the way the are, it is not a decision they make to be attracted to men.

But beyond that fact, there is much more to me as a human being than just my sexual preference to women. So to condemn a human being for their differing sexual preference would be hypocritical of me, because I would never want to be condemned for my attraction to women.

_________________
Image


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:35 pm
Profile
Backup

Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:07 pm
Posts: 57
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
[/quote]

Not sure what that has to do with what "I" said, but I'll bite and sway topics with you. Some would disagree that homosexuality is not a bad thing, just as some disapprove of a vegetarian diet. I am a Christian, and choose to opt out of judging others (as best I can, I'm only human) which falls in accordance with what God has called us to do anyway, to judge not. But because my relationship with God is so important to me, I willfully choose not to accept and support homosexuality... But let's not mistake this with the hatred or condemnation of those who do. I feel as though many of you (and EVERY writer on nfl.com) are making that absent connection, conveniently. I also do not believe someone is born gay (and we can do the nature /nurture thing all day), but I don't feel as though stressed S's, a knack for interior design, or sexual attraction is a biological or inherited trait. I like brunette's with brown eyes, but not because I have the (hot for brunette's) gene, it because Jennifer Love Hewitt was my first Hollywood crush growing up and I've kind of subconsciously set her as a standard. (To much info? Probably)[/quote]

I'm going to stick to just the last part about Jennifer Love Hewitt, because that is an extremely poor choice to argue that homosexuality is not genetic (even though it has scientifically proven to be, but whatever).

You're preference in the type of women does not negate the fact that women are who you are biologically attracted to. It has nothing to do with choice. You happened to have a crush on Jennifer Love Hewitt, which has made you prefer brunettes, but why were you attracted to her in the first place, rather than say Freddie Prince Jr.? Why were you not sexually stimulated by a man the same way you were stimulated by a woman?[/quote]

Cause I'm not gay... Haha nah I get what your saying. Ok first of all (while I understand the significance of science and technology and the impact it has on society), science is still just a label machine. Science takes God's creations, slaps a label on it ("what should we call it, how about an... Atom, BRILLIANT, after yet another scientist" who is still a mere man and is prone to error every second of every day), and because we have placed a title on it and have learned how to manipulate it, we think we have CREATED it and have achieved mastery and ultimate knowledge of it, which is prideful. ANYWAY, the word "proven" doesn't even belong behind the word "scientifically", because the pot of gold at the end of the science rainbow, lands you with a THEORY. Look it up, it's science bro. And I liked J Love (she likes it when I call her that), because she has crescent moon eyes when she smiles, and I initially liked THAT because it was unique. You would truly argue that I have a (J Love) gene and that I was born with less taste for blondes and redheads?


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:40 pm
Profile
All Pro Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:23 pm
Posts: 1736
Location: Alabama
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
People are born gay or straight? Explain bi-sexual people then. People who love outside of their gender but seem to love their same gender as they get older or vice versa.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:42 pm
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:43 am
Posts: 2250
Location: Minneapolis
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
King James wrote:
NextQuestion wrote:


King James: You said people of incest are probably deformed. That's what I wanted facts on, not if homosexuals can reproduce. By your logic of me having a Kluwe AVI = me being homosexual....you must be too since you seem to enjoy men slapping butts and running into each other on Sunday afternoons



What?????? So I guess that makes every football fan and player homosexual then? :lol: :lol: Slapping a player on the butt does not mean, "I want you." It means good job. You probably never played football before so no surprised you didn't know. Running into each other is how the game is meant to be played right? Is the guy suppose to not tackle a player because he's scared that it might look gay? Worst comparison ever. :lol: Oh my goodness, you are freaking hilarious!!!!!!


You tend to overreact and not sense any sarcasm. I did play football btw :)
The fact that you look at football as men slapping each other butts and running into each other really makes me think you could be homosexual. But if men is what you like, I can't stop you.

_________________
Pull yr 84 jerseys out.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:57 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:26 pm
Posts: 4026
Location: Northeast, Iowa
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
King James wrote:
People are born gay or straight? Explain bi-sexual people then.


Same. Born that way.

_________________
Image


Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:02 pm
Profile WWW
All Pro Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:28 am
Posts: 1653
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Superman wrote:


Not sure what that has to do with what "I" said, but I'll bite and sway topics with you. Some would disagree that homosexuality is not a bad thing, just as some disapprove of a vegetarian diet. I am a Christian, and choose to opt out of judging others (as best I can, I'm only human) which falls in accordance with what God has called us to do anyway, to judge not. But because my relationship with God is so important to me, I willfully choose not to accept and support homosexuality... But let's not mistake this with the hatred or condemnation of those who do. I feel as though many of you (and EVERY writer on nfl.com) are making that absent connection, conveniently. I also do not believe someone is born gay (and we can do the nature /nurture thing all day), but I don't feel as though stressed S's, a knack for interior design, or sexual attraction is a biological or inherited trait. I like brunette's with brown eyes, but not because I have the (hot for brunette's) gene, it because Jennifer Love Hewitt was my first Hollywood crush growing up and I've kind of subconsciously set her as a standard. (To much info? Probably)[/quote]

I'm going to stick to just the last part about Jennifer Love Hewitt, because that is an extremely poor choice to argue that homosexuality is not genetic (even though it has scientifically proven to be, but whatever).

You're preference in the type of women does not negate the fact that women are who you are biologically attracted to. It has nothing to do with choice. You happened to have a crush on Jennifer Love Hewitt, which has made you prefer brunettes, but why were you attracted to her in the first place, rather than say Freddie Prince Jr.? Why were you not sexually stimulated by a man the same way you were stimulated by a woman?[/quote]

Cause I'm not gay... Haha nah I get what your saying. Ok first of all (while I understand the significance of science and technology and the impact it has on society), science is still just a label machine. Science takes God's creations, slaps a label on it ("what should we call it, how about an... Atom, BRILLIANT, after yet another scientist" who is still a mere man and is prone to error every second of every day), and because we have placed a title on it and have learned how to manipulate it, we think we have CREATED it and have achieved mastery and ultimate knowledge of it, which is prideful. ANYWAY, the word "proven" doesn't even belong behind the word "scientifically", because the pot of gold at the end of the science rainbow, lands you with a THEORY. Look it up, it's science bro. And I liked J Love (she likes it when I call her that), because she has crescent moon eyes when she smiles, and I initially liked THAT because it was unique. You would truly argue that I have a (J Love) gene and that I was born with less taste for blondes and redheads?[/quote]


Haha well I'm not going to get into a science vs. religion argument with you, that's a topic that will just go in circles (although I guess this current one seems to fit that category as well).

But I do think you at least acknowledge my point, which is all I'm looking for. And in a way, yes I do believe that you have a "J Love" gene, or at least towards certain aspects of her. Whether or not that is the color of her hair, I can't say.

_________________
Image


Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:07 pm
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:43 am
Posts: 2250
Location: Minneapolis
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Dang, my post about people being bi-sexual didn't make it here. Straight up genetic thing...I wasn't born to experiment but a lot of people I know were. I had a girlfriend who made out with girls at parties! OH NO!

Perhaps King James needs to listen to Huey Lewis & The News. Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes, but when "Sports" came out in '83, I think they really came into their own, commercially and artistically. The whole album has a clear, crisp sound, and a new sheen of consummate professionalism that really gives the songs a big boost. He's been compared to Elvis Costello, but I think Huey has a far more bitter, cynical sense of humor.

In '87, Huey released "Fore", their most accomplished album. I think their undisputed masterpiece is "Hip to be Square", a song so catchy, most people probably don't listen to the lyrics. But they should, because it's not just about the pleasures of conformity, and the importance of trends, it's also a personal statement about the band itself.

_________________
Pull yr 84 jerseys out.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:09 pm
Profile
Backup

Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:07 pm
Posts: 57
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
fiestavike wrote:
Funkytown wrote:
King James wrote:
People are born gay or straight? Explain bi-sexual people then.


Same. Born that way.


anyone who denies that society has an influence on the sexual practices of its members is being willfully ignorant for political reasons.


Or social reasons. Well said though.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:34 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:52 pm
Posts: 7973
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Why doesn't this thread get tossed in the nonsense index. I keep hoping maybe the NFL has said something about this. or a coach or GM, but no, still the same trash talking crap that went on in the Kluwe thread.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:35 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:53 pm
Posts: 8438
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
fiestavike wrote:
For the sake of full disclosure I will say that I am not a christian, though I do periodically attend a church. Some of my thinking is certainly influenced by those experiences and teachings and I do tend to have a traditional world view.

What is Hell? In the church I attend it is basically taught that heaven and hell are the same place experienced differently depending on the state of ones spiritual health, or one's orientation toward God. What we will experience after death will be the same thing, but we will experience it differently depending on how we prepare ourselves for death. Do I believe this? It makes some sense to me. I don't have any certitude about it, but it makes more sense to me than "nothingness", the secularist understanding of heaven and hell, or the foolish religious understanding of heaven and hell.


I appreciate the discussion, I don't have the answers with 100% certainty, neither does anyone so I'm sure we'll both continue to believe what we currently believe unless new evidence comes in to change it.

Quote:

beating up gay people because they are gay is abhorrent. I'm not sure why you assume that the kids doing this are more likely to be of a spiritual or religious mentality. As for picketing abortion clinics, I know people who have done that and have not the slightest doubt that their ONLY concern is the love wellbeing of the woman and her child. You can object to this as attempting to impose one's views but again not sure why you lump this in with either insincerity or hateful violence in the form of gay bashing or bullying. I think if you take a charitable view its easy to see that this is an act (demonstrating at abortion clinics) which at least could (I know with certainty that it frequently is) motivated by love and caring for one another. Most people I know through church opt to take action through pregnancy centers where women and boyfriends/husbands can come to get support and information both before and after they make a decision about whether to abort their child.


I don't have the data, nor do I have the intent to get it. All I know is that the nail that sticks out gets hammered down and if you're raised like King James the somewhat flamboyant kid makes the perfect target. You can choose to turn a blind eye to it but it DOES happen. I've seen the videos of abortion clinic "protests" and those people can get downright SCARY. There is so much anger and hate involved, while LITERALLY holding SIGNS that say "GOD HATES ####!" and so on. Now look I get that not every christian or spiritual person is that way, but you're burying your head in the sand if you think it's not a problem.

Quote:

Ironically, I spent much of my life believing that. I will acknowledge that it is quite possible that there is no God. If it is the case, I see no basis for morality at all, and cannot fathom why you would object to human cruelty on the basis of anything other than self-interest or aesthetics. In a world without belief of and fear of God, I don't forsee equality, tolerance and utopia, but increased cruelty, exploitation, and abuse. As it says in Brothers Karamazov, If there is no God, all things are permissible. this doesn't just mean beautiful and loving things.


And yet believing in God has created some of the worst "disasters" in human history, but when you say it's in god's name you can justify your actions. I mean what we call a radical Muslim will strap explosives to their chests, blow up 56 people on a bus or in a building or whatever and then legitimately thinks he's going to their version of heaven and Allah will reward him with 72 Virgin wives in the afterlife. If he didn't believe in "god" do you really think he'd make that sacrifice?

Anyway there are plenty of places around the world that have given up god, religion, war, etc to simply just live peaceful happy lives because at the end of the day, as mad as we can get, we just don't have it all that bad. I believe people are innately good by nature, so taking god out of the picture doesn't just immediately make us say "well guess I better start killing you guys and taking your stuff." The main driving force is our own survival and the world is advanced enough now where we NEED each other to survive and maintain our lifestyles. Order can be maintained because if you kill someone it's still ILLEGAL BY LAW, NOT BY GOD and you will still go to prison for life. Cmon man!

Quote:

Trust me when I tell you, if there is a God, I will probably have my own sexual sins and misdeeds to account for.


Oh if there is a god and it works like the Christian Bible says it does, we are ALL doomed to hell for an eternity.

Quote:
Of course, there are those Christians who reinforce this perception.


I think I know what you mean... there is one in this thread...


Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:40 pm
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:26 pm
Posts: 4026
Location: Northeast, Iowa
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Religious talk. It appears to be in another language to me.

Are some implying that morality cannot exist without God or religion? Or just that religion likely has an impact one way or another?

_________________
Image


Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:35 pm
Profile WWW
All Pro Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:28 am
Posts: 1653
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
fiestavike wrote:
Valhalla wrote:

Let's not forget, some of the biggest dictators and murderous systems of the 20th Century were from Atheistic Communism. Millions have died in China, Russia and other countries. It matches any tyranny and in fact, is probably the deadliest political system ever.



If we are talking in sheer numbers, secularism in the last 100 years has killed more people than religion in the whole history of the world, but what is the point of these discussions? People are awful to each other and always have been. The real question is what causes someone to rise above this muck and be heroic? Who was most likely to hide jews in #### germany? Christians. Who led the fight to end slavery? Christians. Who led the fight against communism? Jews and Christians.


I think it's a great point that Christianity as a whole can have a very positive impact on people to do good.

Many Christians have done some great things in the history of mankind in the name of Christianity. But does that mean they have it "right"? That their god is the real god because Christian morals strongly fit with the popular opinion of what is considered "good". Because Christians fought to end slavery, we should follow their belief that homosexuality is immoral?

The concept of God is a strong force to make large amounts of people believe what ever it is those who created that God want them to believe. If a God is created to get those who follow it to do good, that is great, but that does not mean it is a necessary force to get humans to be good.

This is why we live in a democracy. God is not needed in a democracy. We do not create rules to live within based on the beliefs of what a certain "God" tells us, but rather what we as a society decide. We as human beings are given freedom, and as a society we decide rules to guide us so that we can all experience the same freedoms and live our lives as we choose. If we choose to break those laws, those freedoms are taken away. It is not hard to understand why murder, rape and thievery are immoral and destroy the presence of freedom within a society and thus why we are able to come to an agreement that these things must be outlawed, and have strict punishments for committing these acts. A God whom punishes bad behavior in an after life is unnecessary because real punishments in life already exist.

_________________
Image


Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:08 pm
Profile
Commissioner
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:30 pm
Posts: 23669
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Retired NFL Receiver Destroys Argument Against Gay Players
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/1 ... 61724.html

Quote:
In my experience, if your organization can't "handle media coverage", they will suck on the field anyway... but hey, there's always 2015...

— Donte' Stallworth (@DonteStallworth) February 10, 2014

_________________
“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly


Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:27 pm
Profile
Hall of Famer

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:53 pm
Posts: 8438
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
fiestavike wrote:

I agree that it happens. I was a kid and went to public schools. I've seen it happen. Kids are pretty mean and F'd up to each other, but I think a kid raised with a concept of right and wrong based in religious morality and church teachings is less likely to be a bully that one not raised with those values.


Fair enough, my stance is that you can raise a child completely void of religion and if you're setting a good example as a parent, the kid is extremely likely to pick up those "traits" of helping people, being nice or not being a dick, and just being a "good" person. However, if the parents and significant influences on the child ARE jerks, bad parents, and / or selfish people then I think the child is also likely to pick up on that. Religion only factors into it as a "side effect", so a good parent who's also religious is the same as just a good parent. A bad parent will be a bad parent and if they're over zealous religious (We'll use the Westboro Baptist nutjobs to make my point) parent then their children will likely also have issues with the current topic of homophobia.

King James has repeated himself that that's the way he was raised and influenced and that's why he thinks the way he does.

Quote:
From the description of the signs you saw in the abortion clinic videos, I'm guess you watched a protest from the Westboro Baptist nutjobs. They account for about .0001 of christians but get about 15% or all press about christians. Is it fair to call it a problem? I suppose, but its a problem that exists within a pretty small percentage of the population.


I actually don't know who was leading the protest, but you could be right. It seems I could do myself a favor in the future seeing who is actually responsible for certain actions I'm not fond of, rather than just lumping it all together as "christian".



Quote:

Here we have several disagreements. The biggest one is that you believe people are innately good by nature. I believe people are innately selfish by nature. Probably all of our disagreement stems from this one point.

I would also like to say that the entire concept of right and wrong and your objection to what you perceive as cruelty and injustice in your given example is completely irrational in the absence of a God. In fact, the very notion of free will is nothing more than an illusion if there is no God as we are merely the product of our genetics and upbringing (both things which are out of our control, and every decision from our first to our last is determined by these factors). To the secular materialist free will doesn't even exist, so how can one object to injustice or cruelty? Its actually an absurdity to object to the behavior of another person/nation, etc from a secular view point. The most intellectually honest and rigorous among the secular athiests will freely admit as much.


Well I should rephrase what I said, I believe people are genuinely a blank slate, or a piece of clay if you will. I believe you can instill things like Ethics, Moral values, the notion of right and wrong, and so forth into someone and you don't simply have to do it with Christianity. But if you get all that stuff from Christianity that's fine too. I guess that's the biggest difference between us right now.

As for the rest of that stuff, our "off the charts" Intelligence is the driving factor. Genetics and upbringing are indeed huge factors but the greater ones individual intelligence is, the more likely they are able to create a different path, rather than just follow the one instilled into them. Some people of course fail to become any thing other than what they were raised to be and thus the chain continues into the next generation.

Quote:

forgive me if I am skeptical of your biblical scholarship. You seem pretty hostile toward religion generally and are unlikely to be an authority of scripture. :)

I do enjoy the conversation, its nice to have a civil discourse even though we clearly disagree about some things.


For sure, it's been fun.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:54 pm
Profile
Backup

Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:07 pm
Posts: 57
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
saint33 wrote:
fiestavike wrote:
Valhalla wrote:

Let's not forget, some of the biggest dictators and murderous systems of the 20th Century were from Atheistic Communism. Millions have died in China, Russia and other countries. It matches any tyranny and in fact, is probably the deadliest political system ever.



If we are talking in sheer numbers, secularism in the last 100 years has killed more people than religion in the whole history of the world, but what is the point of these discussions? People are awful to each other and always have been. The real question is what causes someone to rise above this muck and be heroic? Who was most likely to hide jews in #### germany? Christians. Who led the fight to end slavery? Christians. Who led the fight against communism? Jews and Christians.


I think it's a great point that Christianity as a whole can have a very positive impact on people to do good.

Many Christians have done some great things in the history of mankind in the name of Christianity. But does that mean they have it "right"? That their god is the real god because Christian morals strongly fit with the popular opinion of what is considered "good". Because Christians fought to end slavery, we should follow their belief that homosexuality is immoral?

The concept of God is a strong force to make large amounts of people believe what ever it is those who created that God want them to believe. If a God is created to get those who follow it to do good, that is great, but that does not mean it is a necessary force to get humans to be good.

This is why we live in a democracy. God is not needed in a democracy. We do not create rules to live within based on the beliefs of what a certain "God" tells us, but rather what we as a society decide. We as human beings are given freedom, and as a society we decide rules to guide us so that we can all experience the same freedoms and live our lives as we choose. If we choose to break those laws, those freedoms are taken away. It is not hard to understand why murder, rape and thievery are immoral and destroy the presence of freedom within a society and thus why we are able to come to an agreement that these things must be outlawed, and have strict punishments for committing these acts. A God whom punishes bad behavior in an after life is unnecessary because real punishments in life already exist.


Dude I don't like defending the existence of God because I don't feel I need to, but it's difficult not to when you say things like the "concept" of God. Elementary logic assures us that it is IMPOSSIBLE to win, when you bet on nothing. Though I'm Christian, I understand different and varying faiths with the exception of agnostic (or whatever it is when you chose to believe in nothing). If your right... Then we are all in the same boat after death. If I'm right... different story. Without God, and the presence of a spirit/soul, how do you define Love? Is it based on an organisms primal needs of attraction/sex, and companionship? Is that it? Why is a flower pretty? All through physical therapy school, the more science (as it relates to the human body) I learn, the more I discover that life is way too blueprinted to be anything other than a divine design.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:52 pm
Profile
All Pro Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:23 pm
Posts: 1736
Location: Alabama
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
dead_poet wrote:
Retired NFL Receiver Destroys Argument Against Gay Players
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/1 ... 61724.html

Quote:
In my experience, if your organization can't "handle media coverage", they will suck on the field anyway... but hey, there's always 2015...

— Donte' Stallworth (@DonteStallworth) February 10, 2014



Ridiculous. Every team gets rid of players or refuse to sign players because of media coverage. So every team can't possibly suck. Look at the Patriots, they released Hernandez as soon as he got arrested. He some charges but have yet to be actually found guilty. And they far from sucked this year. So Donté Stallworth, is an idiot. Actually he's been an idiot, he wants to drive drunk and ended up taking the life of a person. He's just upset the Browns didn't want his sorry ####. You picked the wrong person to cite.

That being said, the Vikings have shown that we can handle some media coverage. We still have Priefer right? So if that article is applying that the Vikings will suck because of not being


Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:10 am
Profile
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:10 am
Posts: 272
Location: Olathe, KS
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Have read through the last 5 pages of this thread, not one mention of Michael Sam.

:confused:


Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:30 am
Profile
Commissioner
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:30 pm
Posts: 23669
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
King James wrote:
Ridiculous. Every team gets rid of players or refuse to sign players because of media coverage.


Not really. It's primarily about talent (or lack thereof) age and contract status. We've seen time and again teams keep more talented players who have been in trouble with the law and jettison "lesser" or older players who may not be as talented. It's also about the culture they want to cultivate.

Quote:
Look at the Patriots, they released Hernandez as soon as he got arrested. He some charges but have yet to be actually found guilty. And they far from sucked this year.


Uhh...pretty sure they didn't release him because of media attention. They released him because he was being charged with murder.

Quote:
So Donté Stallworth, is an idiot. Actually he's been an idiot, he wants to drive drunk and ended up taking the life of a person. He's just upset the Browns didn't want his sorry ####. You picked the wrong person to cite.


:roll:

_________________
“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly


Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:32 am
Profile
All Pro Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:23 pm
Posts: 1736
Location: Alabama
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
Ray Lewis was charged with murder but did he get cut? No and it's not like his murder was 1st degree like an Aaron Hernandez murder. The fact that he was able to join the NFL again after his murder shows you that it had more to do with the media. Same thing with the cowboys player who killed his teammate.

It's all about the media. I doubt these guys would be cut if they didn't care so much how the public press feels. To think otherwise is foolish.

But go ahead and "roll your eyes again." :roll: <------------ That's the only thing you seem to be competent of doing.


And the main team dumb enough to keep troubled players is ours. We are the team who leads the league in arrests.


Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:36 am
Profile
Career Elite Player
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:43 am
Posts: 2250
Location: Minneapolis
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
If you did any reading on Hernandez, NE told him to stay out of trouble and he gets charged for murder and gets linked to a double murder. The deck is not in AH's favor and that's why Kraft and Belichick said "no way we keep him".

Ray Lewis was very lucky to keep playing and not get suspended. I find it funny that people like Lewis, Vick, Big Ben, Perish Cox, Chris Cook, etc are welcome with open arms but a gay player? Noooooooooooo

Hopefully King James punched a cat a cooled off from yesterday.

_________________
Pull yr 84 jerseys out.


Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:43 am
Profile
Commissioner
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:30 pm
Posts: 23669
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
NFL players reactions

NFL Nation Says: Michael Sam

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/ ... ichael-sam

_________________
“Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that.” --- Bill Shankly


Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:14 am
Profile
Hall of Fame Inductee
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:26 pm
Posts: 4026
Location: Northeast, Iowa
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
dead_poet wrote:
NFL players reactions

NFL Nation Says: Michael Sam

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/ ... ichael-sam


Good stuff from the players. Thanks.

_________________
Image


Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:48 am
Profile WWW
Hall of Famer

Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:53 pm
Posts: 8438
Post Re: Michael Sam and the Vikings
King James wrote:


Ridiculous. Every team gets rid of players or refuse to sign players because of media coverage. So every team can't possibly suck. Look at the Patriots, they released Hernandez as soon as he got arrested. He some charges but have yet to be actually found guilty. And they far from sucked this year. So Donté Stallworth, is an idiot. Actually he's been an idiot, he wants to drive drunk and ended up taking the life of a person. He's just upset the Browns didn't want his sorry ####. You picked the wrong person to cite.

That being said, the Vikings have shown that we can handle some media coverage. We still have Priefer right? So if that article is applying that the Vikings will suck because of not being


Actually it's the perfect reason why drafting Sam wouldn't be a big deal. A GUY ON THE PATRIOTS MURDERED A BUNCH OF PEOPLE!! How is that for a distraction?!!? and yet like you said, they were still good! So clearly distractions don't really matter, it's about FOOTBALL!!!!!


Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:02 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.   [ 255 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware.