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 MLB prospects 
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Post Re: MLB prospects
VikingLord wrote:
Spielman has already extolled the virtues of Ogletree IIRC, so if he's still there at #23 I'd be shocked if the Vikes pass on him.


Hopefully, that was a smokescreen.

Quote:
His character concerns are a big deal, and I hope if the Vikes do take him they find a way to bring him along slowly rather than quickly. That's hard to do when you spend a 1st on a guy and you have no incumbent, but maybe the Vikes can shuffle things around or find a vet in FA that can help bring him along.


I imagine that would help, although as you say, it could be hard to bring a 1st round pick drafted to play a position without an incumbent starter along slowly. I wish it was just the character concerns that worried me about Ogletree but there are aspects of his game that concern me too. It would be easier to consider the latter worth the risk if not for the former. As it is, I really hope he's either gone when they pick or that they go in another direction, although if they draft him I'll hope for the best.


Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:05 pm
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Post Re: MLB prospects
VikingLord wrote:
Mothman wrote:
I hope the Vikings stay FAR away from Ogletree. There's way too much risk there to pull the trigger and draft him.


Spielman has already extolled the virtues of Ogletree IIRC, so if he's still there at #23 I'd be shocked if the Vikes pass on him.

His character concerns are a big deal, and I hope if the Vikes do take him they find a way to bring him along slowly rather than quickly. That's hard to do when you spend a 1st on a guy and you have no incumbent, but maybe the Vikes can shuffle things around or find a vet in FA that can help bring him along.


Because they did such a great job dealing with Percy Harvin and his issues. I dont think they are going to even look at ogletree, now thats not to say they are going to look at teo either


Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:08 pm
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Post Re: MLB prospects
Just my 2 cents about each MLB rumored to go around our 1st round picks. I'll rank them here:

1. Manti Te'o - I know a lot of people will disagree with this, and that's fine. I don't remember where I read it, but somewhere on this board I think someone put it perfectly... Te'o was an extremely over-hyped player in college, ridiculously over-hyped. From the Heisman nomination to being ranked in the top 5 in a lot of mock drafts, to even being rumored to go #1 overall at one point I remember. All of this was way overkill and it all suddenly crashed around the BCS Championship game and fake girlfriend scandal. And all of a sudden people began to realize that the hype was far too much for him, and as people really started to analyze and criticize his game, they realized where his value really should have been all along, which is the 2nd half of the 1st round. But all the over-hyping, followed by such negative attention and what was a pedestrian combine, people have really started to over analyze him, becoming overly critical, and in actuality, he's become undervalued as a result of it.

So here's my honest evaluation of him. First of all, I'd like to address the prevailing belief that he's a liability in coverage. This is not true, and I laugh every time I see a comparison to Jasper Brinkley. Is it true that Te'o, like Brinkley, is better in run support than pass coverage? Absolutely. But that's where the comparison ends. Just because they are both better at one aspect of the game then the other aspect, does not mean they are identical players. Brinkley is horrible in pass coverage, and while he's a solid thumper in run support, he's all around a lesser LB today than Te'o, and I truly believe that.

Te'o is not only a "thumper" or a "run-stuffer". He is a downhill LB, but he is also a 3 down LB in the NFL. His 40 time was poor, but there are reports that his 1st 20 yards were on par with a player who runs a 4.6 40. With the publicity now that surrounds the combine, people can get far too engulfed in relatively unimportant numbers like a 40 time. It's probably the most overrated "statistic" in all of football, especially in regards to certain positions, like LB. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that Te'o is not an elite athlete at his position, he is a bit tighter in the hips and not as explosive an athlete as a guy like Ogletree. But he's more physical then Ogletree, and he's far more instinctive, and that's what separates Te'o in my mind from all the other MLBs we'll potentially be drafting. Te'o's instincts are the best in the draft and he reads plays the best as well. And that's where his coverage skills have largely improved to the point where he was able to get 7 INTs in his senior year. He makes up for a lack of fluidity in his hips with knowledge and instincts. He knows where he needs to be on the field and he has a feel for adjusting to the play to put himself in around the ball.

As for the BCS Championship game, I think what get's underlooked is how much Notre Dame's defensive line was overmatched in that game. Te'o had a bad game, but his defensive line was dominated and allowed those dominant Alabama olineman to get to Te'o.

Anyways, I think out of all the MLBs, I feel the most comfortable with Te'o. I think what he brings in intangibles, leadership, football knowledge and instincts far out weighs the athleticism that the other LBs bring. I think Te'o is the best football player of the bunch, but is getting overlooked because he's not the best athlete.


2. Arthur Brown - This a fast riser, so I've tried to find all the video of him as I can, and I have to admit, he's very impressive. He's undersized, or at least he was in game shape. Since then he's put on weight, he's right around 240 which isn't bad for a MLB. But he was listed in the 220s in college and he certainly looked it. But he's an explosive player, he's all over the field. I haven't seen quite enough of him to anoint him ahead of Te'o yet, but we ended up passing on Te'o and taking Brown instead, I would not be disappointed, because this kid appears to be very impressive, and could be something special.

3. Kevin Minter - Similar to Te'o, better in run support than pass coverage. A downhill LB, solid in his reads and his instincts. Solid tackler, is good and shedding blocks and getting to the ball carrier. Really, there's a lot of similarities between Te'o and Minter's games. The thing that separates them to me though is that Te'o has more of a knack for game changing plays, and his on field leadership and presence is felt more than Minter. I have no problems with drafting Minter, he'll end up being a solid starting LB in the NFL. But I'd prefer them to trade down and grab him if they target him, and I'd be disappointed if we picked him over Te'o or Brown.

4. Alec Ogletree - I really don't want anything to do with Ogletree. He is a boom or bust type of player. His talent is undeniable, he's the best athlete of the LB prospects and is strong in pass coverage. However, as has been mentioned, he's not nearly as physical a LB to play the Mike in our scheme. Honestly, I think if he were to go to a 4-3 team, he would be better off at WLB where he can use his range and athleticism better on the perimeter, working off the edge rather than in the middle, where I feel like he'd get washed away far too often. And then you add the off field issues into the mix, I think there's a lot of risk invovled in drafting Ogletree.

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Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:10 pm
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Post Re: MLB prospects
saint33 wrote:
Just my 2 cents about each MLB rumored to go around our 1st round picks. I'll rank them here:

1. Manti Te'o - I know a lot of people will disagree with this, and that's fine. I don't remember where I read it, but somewhere on this board I think someone put it perfectly... Te'o was an extremely over-hyped player in college, ridiculously over-hyped. From the Heisman nomination to being ranked in the top 5 in a lot of mock drafts, to even being rumored to go #1 overall at one point I remember. All of this was way overkill and it all suddenly crashed around the BCS Championship game and fake girlfriend scandal. And all of a sudden people began to realize that the hype was far too much for him, and as people really started to analyze and criticize his game, they realized where his value really should have been all along, which is the 2nd half of the 1st round. But all the over-hyping, followed by such negative attention and what was a pedestrian combine, people have really started to over analyze him, becoming overly critical, and in actuality, he's become undervalued as a result of it.

So here's my honest evaluation of him. First of all, I'd like to address the prevailing belief that he's a liability in coverage. This is not true, and I laugh every time I see a comparison to Jasper Brinkley. Is it true that Te'o, like Brinkley, is better in run support than pass coverage? Absolutely. But that's where the comparison ends. Just because they are both better at one aspect of the game then the other aspect, does not mean they are identical players. Brinkley is horrible in pass coverage, and while he's a solid thumper in run support, he's all around a lesser LB today than Te'o, and I truly believe that.

Te'o is not only a "thumper" or a "run-stuffer". He is a downhill LB, but he is also a 3 down LB in the NFL. His 40 time was poor, but there are reports that his 1st 20 yards were on par with a player who runs a 4.6 40. With the publicity now that surrounds the combine, people can get far too engulfed in relatively unimportant numbers like a 40 time. It's probably the most overrated "statistic" in all of football, especially in regards to certain positions, like LB. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that Te'o is not an elite athlete at his position, he is a bit tighter in the hips and not as explosive an athlete as a guy like Ogletree. But he's more physical then Ogletree, and he's far more instinctive, and that's what separates Te'o in my mind from all the other MLBs we'll potentially be drafting. Te'o's instincts are the best in the draft and he reads plays the best as well. And that's where his coverage skills have largely improved to the point where he was able to get 7 INTs in his senior year. He makes up for a lack of fluidity in his hips with knowledge and instincts. He knows where he needs to be on the field and he has a feel for adjusting to the play to put himself in around the ball.

As for the BCS Championship game, I think what get's underlooked is how much Notre Dame's defensive line was overmatched in that game. Te'o had a bad game, but his defensive line was dominated and allowed those dominant Alabama olineman to get to Te'o.

Anyways, I think out of all the MLBs, I feel the most comfortable with Te'o. I think what he brings in intangibles, leadership, football knowledge and instincts far out weighs the athleticism that the other LBs bring. I think Te'o is the best football player of the bunch, but is getting overlooked because he's not the best athlete.


2. Arthur Brown - This a fast riser, so I've tried to find all the video of him as I can, and I have to admit, he's very impressive. He's undersized, or at least he was in game shape. Since then he's put on weight, he's right around 240 which isn't bad for a MLB. But he was listed in the 220s in college and he certainly looked it. But he's an explosive player, he's all over the field. I haven't seen quite enough of him to anoint him ahead of Te'o yet, but we ended up passing on Te'o and taking Brown instead, I would not be disappointed, because this kid appears to be very impressive, and could be something special.

3. Kevin Minter - Similar to Te'o, better in run support than pass coverage. A downhill LB, solid in his reads and his instincts. Solid tackler, is good and shedding blocks and getting to the ball carrier. Really, there's a lot of similarities between Te'o and Minter's games. The thing that separates them to me though is that Te'o has more of a knack for game changing plays, and his on field leadership and presence is felt more than Minter. I have no problems with drafting Minter, he'll end up being a solid starting LB in the NFL. But I'd prefer them to trade down and grab him if they target him, and I'd be disappointed if we picked him over Te'o or Brown.

4. Alec Ogletree - I really don't want anything to do with Ogletree. He is a boom or bust type of player. His talent is undeniable, he's the best athlete of the LB prospects and is strong in pass coverage. However, as has been mentioned, he's not nearly as physical a LB to play the Mike in our scheme. Honestly, I think if he were to go to a 4-3 team, he would be better off at WLB where he can use his range and athleticism better on the perimeter, working off the edge rather than in the middle, where I feel like he'd get washed away far too often. And then you add the off field issues into the mix, I think there's a lot of risk invovled in drafting Ogletree.


I like your thoughts on Te'o. I definitely agree that his play on the field was exceptional and should be weighed much more heavily than his poor combine performance. His case is very illustrative of how "market value" on a particular player can fluctuate wildly based on a myriad of (subjective) factors. Like you, I like to take the "zoomed out" perspective, thinking about his overall production at the collegiate level and not let his bowl game performance or the fake girlfriend media whirlwind influence my take as much. After all, just a year ago many were hoping he'd be our LB and that was BEFORE he had a huge year as the heart and soul of ND's D and a rather impressive year. I think we may be fortunate to get him at our spot in the 1st round.

I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I have a couple of minor reservations with him, though. I watched the Heisman interviews on ESPN and a couple of things about Te'o seemed off to me. I sensed something was up with the girlfriend story and that later blew up (he showed very little emotion and seemed awkward speaking about it (Of course, ESPN was trying to sap every possible ounce out of the emotional, fairy tale-like story). He also said some things about loving the college game, where it wasn't about the money, etc. When he said it, I thought that it kind of sounded like a guy who was not looking forward to the next step in his career (NFL) but who was lamenting his departure from what he viewed as a more authentic version of football. I wouldn't want to hear that as a GM. Will he have trouble adjusting to the NFL emotionally and mentally? He's a guy that can elevate his play based on spiritual/emotional elements of his being. All of that extra energy can also be deflated quickly, as I think it was in the Bowl game with hoax about to be discovered nationally and already discovered by him. In the right situation I think he'll be great. But part of me wonders if NFL players will have trouble looking to him as their leader-- will they rally around him? For example, what will Jared Allen think of him?

I have a strong feeling that he'll be a Viking.


Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:04 am
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Post Re: MLB prospects
saint33 wrote:
I laugh every time I see a comparison to Jasper Brinkley.


Manti Teo Combine Results:

Height: 6'2"
Weight: 255 lbs
4.82 second 40 yard dash
33 inch vertical jump
7.13 second 3 cone drill
4.27 second 20 yard shuttle

Jasper Brinkley Combine Results:

Height: 6'2"
Weight: 270 lbs
4.72 second 40 yard dash
35.5 inch vertical jump
7.03 second 3 cone drill
4.32 second 20 yard shuttle

What is laughable about that? Brinkley performed better in almost every drill, and he did it lugging an extra 15 pounds around. Brinkley also did 26 reps on the bench. Teo didn't do the bench, which was odd among his LB peers at the Combine.

And before anyone gets into stats, Brinkley had 107 tackles (85 solo) his first year at South Carolina before he got hurt, and totaled 3 INTs during his career. Granted, not Teo's 7, but he did manage to space them out over a few seasons versus Teo's single season of 7.

Anyway, the only way this comparison is laughable is if you overweight Teo's magical leadership qualities. Then again, Brinkley managed to come back and play after a serious knee injury, so I would guess he might have had a few of those qualities as well. Brinkley was taken with a 5th rounder IIRC. Teo played on a very good defense and a very good team, but his Combine results suggest he projects similar to Brinkley as a pro. IMHO, the tape on both does nothing to change that assessment.

saint33 wrote:
4. Alec Ogletree - I really don't want anything to do with Ogletree. He is a boom or bust type of player. His talent is undeniable, he's the best athlete of the LB prospects and is strong in pass coverage. However, as has been mentioned, he's not nearly as physical a LB to play the Mike in our scheme. Honestly, I think if he were to go to a 4-3 team, he would be better off at WLB where he can use his range and athleticism better on the perimeter, working off the edge rather than in the middle, where I feel like he'd get washed away far too often. And then you add the off field issues into the mix, I think there's a lot of risk invovled in drafting Ogletree.


I have yet to see any evaluator suggest Ogletree be moved to the outside in the pros. I think he could play there, but he projects as a MLB in the Derrick Brooks or Brian Urlacher mold in the pros. He'll get into an NFL strength program and he'll get bigger. As far as the physicality goes, the criticism of Ogletree that he's not physical enough is questionable IMHO. Could he use his hands better to shed and attack? Yes. But watch his highlight videos. Ogletree will chase guys down ala Joey Browner and rip them violently to the ground. This guy is a vicious tackler and clearly doesn't shy away from contact. If anything, he needs solid coaching and probably a mentor to help him learn the nuances of the game.

Ogletree's character concerns are legit. The guy has a history there and that does make spending a high pick on him very risky. I think a lot will come down to the Vikes doing their homework on the guy and making sure they are comfortable with that aspect of this player. If it doesn't look good there is no way they should spend a 1st on him, but if they think they can work with him I'd feel very good about them taking Ogletree at either #23 or #25.


Last edited by VikingLord on Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:53 pm
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Post Re: MLB prospects
Texas Vike wrote:
Like you, I like to take the "zoomed out" perspective, thinking about his overall production at the collegiate level and not let his bowl game performance or the fake girlfriend media whirlwind influence my take as much.


In other words, discount the facts that don't support your conclusion.

Texas Vike wrote:
I have a strong feeling that he'll be a Viking.


I don't necessarily care if he's a Viking per se, but I do care if the Vikings use a 1st rounder to draft him. Heck, if you look at Teo's Combine results rating him as a 3rd might be generous.

Most mocks I've seen now have Teo going in the 2nd round. I even saw one that had him "drop" to the Vikings in the 2nd round. We'll see where he goes, but at this point I will be surprised if it's in the 1st.


Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:05 pm
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Post Re: MLB prospects
VikingLord wrote:
I don't necessarily care if he's a Viking per se, but I do care if the Vikings use a 1st rounder to draft him. Heck, if you look at Teo's Combine results rating him as a 3rd might be generous.


But they're combine results and combine results aren't football results. Paying too much attention to measurables is a sucker's game because it's performance on the field that matters and overall Te'o has performed very well.

Quote:
Most mocks I've seen now have Teo going in the 2nd round. I even saw one that had him "drop" to the Vikings in the 2nd round. We'll see where he goes, but at this point I will be surprised if it's in the 1st.


I'll be surprised if it isn't. Mock drafts are notoriously reactionary. The people putting them together get caught up in the minutiae of offseason, pre-draft analysis and news and they tend to overreact to things like combine numbers (which, among other things, leads to fans freaking out about draft day "reaches" that may not be reaches at all). I think smart teams are more inclined to take a "big picture" view and prioritize interviews, scouting, tape and individual workouts over that stuff. Te'o had a "first round" college career and with at least 3 teams in the first round that may want a new MLB, there's a good chance he'll still be a first round pick.


Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:27 pm
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Post Re: MLB prospects
VikingLord wrote:
I have yet to see any evaluator suggest Ogletree be moved to the outside in the pros.


That really surprises me. I've seen it everywhere. Cbssportsline.com (and thus NFLDraftScout.com) don't even list him as an ILB. They list him as an OLB.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/pros ... s/2013/OLB

In his draft profile at NFL.com, they say:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/ ... id=2540143
Quote:
It is tough to question Ogletree's athleticism at the linebacker position. Just watching him close on runs or swing passes on the edge is worth the price of admission. Despite playing the last two years at inside linebacker in the Bulldogs 3-4 defense, it would not be surprising to see Ogletree make the switch to weakside linebacker in a defense that uses a four man front. The reason being is the junior struggles to get over top of blocks but does his best work chasing and closing. Expect the Bulldog to be a three down player if he cuts down on wasted steps. Since Ogletree is expected to impress in workouts, expect him to be a top-50 selection.


Here's another:

http://www.optimumscouting.com/draft/ar ... class.html
Quote:
Moving forward, [b]Ogletree’s questionable interior run fits lead me to believe that his best fit in the NFL will be at the weakside linebacker position.[/b] An exceptional athlete as described early and throughout this report, Ogletree has the ability to hold up in extended coverage and make a play on the throw. Beyond simply his size and speed, Ogletree possesses great vertical skills and can attack throwing lanes with his length.


Quote:
I think he could play there, but he projects as a MLB in the Derrick Brooks or Brian Urlacher mold in the pros. He'll get into an NFL strength program and he'll get bigger. As far as the physicality goes, the criticism of Ogletree that he's not physical enough is questionable IMHO. Could he use his hands better to shed and attack? Yes. But watch his highlight videos. Ogletree will chase guys down ala Joey Browner and rip them violently to the ground. This guy is a vicious tackler and clearly doesn't shy away from contact. If anything, he needs solid coaching and probably a mentor to help him learn the nuances of the game.


From what I've seen, the criticism is legit. He'll chase runners down and lay a big hit on them but he's reluctant to take on the lead blocker in the hole and do the dirty work that is essential for an NFL MLB. He's more of a "chase" player.


Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:42 pm
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Post Re: MLB prospects
VikingLord wrote:
Texas Vike wrote:
Like you, I like to take the "zoomed out" perspective, thinking about his overall production at the collegiate level and not let his bowl game performance or the fake girlfriend media whirlwind influence my take as much.


In other words, discount the facts that don't support your conclusion.

Texas Vike wrote:



No.

I meant exactly what I wrote. Apparently, the only facts that matter to you are combine stats. My take is that his bowl game performance was one game over several years of impressive ON-FIELD production. I care about how a guy plays, not how he performs at a track and field meet. Nor did I write that I discount what happened in that game against Alabama or the entire fake girlfriend situation. But they are a minuscule part of the big picture.


Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:00 pm
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Post Re: MLB prospects
Mike Mayock also said Ogletree is more of a Will then a Mike this week on Path to the Draft when discussing the Georgia pro day

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Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:00 am
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Post Re: MLB prospects
Mothman wrote:
VikingLord wrote:
I have yet to see any evaluator suggest Ogletree be moved to the outside in the pros.


That really surprises me. I've seen it everywhere. Cbssportsline.com (and thus NFLDraftScout.com) don't even list him as an ILB. They list him as an OLB.


I meant to say I haven't seen any evaluator say that Ogletree must be moved outside in the pros. This is similar to the offensive lineman who played left tackle in college but projects to a right tackle in the pros, for example. I've stated I see him as a MLB in the pros and I stick by that, but he could move outside. Heck, he could in theory move back to safety if a defensive coordinator were so inclined.


Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:01 am
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Post Re: MLB prospects
Texas Vike wrote:
VikingLord wrote:
Texas Vike wrote:
Like you, I like to take the "zoomed out" perspective, thinking about his overall production at the collegiate level and not let his bowl game performance or the fake girlfriend media whirlwind influence my take as much.


In other words, discount the facts that don't support your conclusion.

Texas Vike wrote:



No.

I meant exactly what I wrote. Apparently, the only facts that matter to you are combine stats. My take is that his bowl game performance was one game over several years of impressive ON-FIELD production. I care about how a guy plays, not how he performs at a track and field meet. Nor did I write that I discount what happened in that game against Alabama or the entire fake girlfriend situation. But they are a minuscule part of the big picture.


The combine is the only neutral direct comparison between Teo and Brinkley that we have since they played at different times on different college teams. These aren't the only facts that matter to me when discussing Teo, but they do matter when comparing Teo and Brinkley, which is what I was trying to do in response to the claim that the comparison was "laughable". It's clearly not laughable, at least on that basis.

I just think looking at the big picture in regards to Teo can lead to some false conclusions about his relative worth. Tim Tebow's "big picture" in college suggested he had something special too, wouldn't you say? That emotion you referred to, that "intangible" leadership quality. That was there with Tebow too, and the Broncos went for that bait hook, line, and sinker despite indications that maybe Tebow's game wouldn't translate to the pros, at least not as an impact player. I see Teo as the MLB version of Tebow. Yes, he can play, and he will make his share of plays in the pros, but worth a 1st rounder? Not in my view.


Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:07 am
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Post Re: MLB prospects
Mothman wrote:
VikingLord wrote:
I don't necessarily care if he's a Viking per se, but I do care if the Vikings use a 1st rounder to draft him. Heck, if you look at Teo's Combine results rating him as a 3rd might be generous.


But they're combine results and combine results aren't football results. Paying too much attention to measurables is a sucker's game because it's performance on the field that matters and overall Te'o has performed very well.


So if paying too much attention to combine results is a sucker's game, what would you call paying too little to them?

Teo performed well in college, that's true. I think he'll be a serviceable pro. But he's not worth a 1st round pick based on his measureables. You can turn it over any way you want, but as I stated to another poster, I think Teo is the MLB version of Tebow. I see lots of the same types of reasoning being given as to why Teo merits a 1st round grade.


Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:14 am
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Post Re: MLB prospects
VikingLord wrote:

Manti Teo Combine Results:

Height: 6'2"
Weight: 255 lbs
4.82 second 40 yard dash
33 inch vertical jump
7.13 second 3 cone drill
4.27 second 20 yard shuttle

Jasper Brinkley Combine Results:

Height: 6'2"
Weight: 270 lbs
4.72 second 40 yard dash
35.5 inch vertical jump
7.03 second 3 cone drill
4.32 second 20 yard shuttle

What is laughable about that? Brinkley performed better in almost every drill, and he did it lugging an extra 15 pounds around. Brinkley also did 26 reps on the bench. Teo didn't do the bench, which was odd among his LB peers at the Combine.

And before anyone gets into stats, Brinkley had 107 tackles (85 solo) his first year at South Carolina before he got hurt, and totaled 3 INTs during his career. Granted, not Teo's 7, but he did manage to space them out over a few seasons versus Teo's single season of 7.

Anyway, the only way this comparison is laughable is if you overweight Teo's magical leadership qualities. Then again, Brinkley managed to come back and play after a serious knee injury, so I would guess he might have had a few of those qualities as well. Brinkley was taken with a 5th rounder IIRC. Teo played on a very good defense and a very good team, but his Combine results suggest he projects similar to Brinkley as a pro. IMHO, the tape on both does nothing to change that assessment.



Notice in my quote where I say the publicity of the combine has made people focus far too much on relatively meaningless numbers..... This is a great example of that. I honestly don't care how the two player's combine numbers match up. They are meaningless, all the combine is for is to see how player's athleticism matches up to their game tape. Stats, while a lot more viable an argument then combine numbers, are also of relatively little value, especially when comparing a position like LB. But when you factor scheme and level of competition, it really waters down the impact of comparing stats between two prospect.

Watching both players, that's what's important, not all these numbers you produce. Leadership is not a "magical" or "mythical" thing. It is a very, very real thing that you can witness on the field. I don't know how much Notre Dame football you watched, but he was very clearly the leader of that defense, and that defense was one of the best in the country.

IYO the tape doesn't separate them. I think your WAY off base here. The thing that separates the two is instincts and knowledge and that is very evident on tape. In these two facets of the game, Te'o is light years ahead of Brinkley. That's where I laugh at the comparison, because Te'o is a far more gifted football player. And I bolded those two words for a reason. Not athlete, but football player. Brinkley was a late round prospect, Te'o is a top 3 prospect at his position, how you can not grasp the difference is beyond me. Put aside the numbers and simply watch the two players, and it's night and day. Te'o understanding of the game, the way he commands the position, and he overall feel for the game is what makes him so good.

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Post Re: MLB prospects
VikingLord wrote:
Texas Vike wrote:
Texas Vike wrote:



No.

I meant exactly what I wrote. Apparently, the only facts that matter to you are combine stats. My take is that his bowl game performance was one game over several years of impressive ON-FIELD production. I care about how a guy plays, not how he performs at a track and field meet. Nor did I write that I discount what happened in that game against Alabama or the entire fake girlfriend situation. But they are a minuscule part of the big picture.


The combine is the only neutral direct comparison between Teo and Brinkley that we have since they played at different times on different college teams. These aren't the only facts that matter to me when discussing Teo, but they do matter when comparing Teo and Brinkley, which is what I was trying to do in response to the claim that the comparison was "laughable". It's clearly not laughable, at least on that basis.

I just think looking at the big picture in regards to Teo can lead to some false conclusions about his relative worth. Tim Tebow's "big picture" in college suggested he had something special too, wouldn't you say? That emotion you referred to, that "intangible" leadership quality. That was there with Tebow too, and the Broncos went for that bait hook, line, and sinker despite indications that maybe Tebow's game wouldn't translate to the pros, at least not as an impact player. I see Teo as the MLB version of Tebow. Yes, he can play, and he will make his share of plays in the pros, but worth a 1st rounder? Not in my view.



Your opinion of Te'o is obviously very low. I can't say why you so strongly seem to dislike him, but that's your prerogative. I think you are way off base, especially with the comparison to Tebow. Manti Te'o is not an unorthodox MLB. His skill set is very much what you see with a typical MLB. When you break down his game, he is not severely lacking in the most crucial aspect of what's expected out of him. THE ONLY comparison I see between Te'o and Tebow is the media attention they've garnered. Maybe you could compare the leadership ability, but is that something we have to take into account now with every prospect who is considered a very strong leader? That Tebow was as well, thus this other player is going to be an utter failure? That's ridiculous. Te'o wasn't a gimmicky player, and doesn't sufficiently lack ability at the position. Is he an elite athlete at his position? No, he's not. Many, many successful LBs have not be elite athletes. His ability as a football player is what separates him and warrants a 1st round pick.

If you don't agree, and believe he is a late round pick, be my guest, you are entitled to your opinion. But I think time will prove that not only will he be drafted in the first round, but that Te'o will ultimately prove to be a solid starting LB in the NFL.

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Post Re: MLB prospects
I would also like to point out that another MLB who is widely believed to be a late first round pick, Kevin Minter, also ran a 4.81 forty yard dash.

Oh ya and an OLB by the name of Jarvis Jones, widely believed to be a top 5 - top 10 prospect, who is around the same size as Te'o and appears to be one of the most explosive players on tape.... just ran in the 4.9s at his pro day.

Couple more Tebows I guess...

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VikingLord wrote:
I meant to say I haven't seen any evaluator say that Ogletree must be moved outside in the pros. This is similar to the offensive lineman who played left tackle in college but projects to a right tackle in the pros, for example. I've stated I see him as a MLB in the pros and I stick by that, but he could move outside. Heck, he could in theory move back to safety if a defensive coordinator were so inclined.


Ah, I see. That makes more sense!

VikingLord wrote:
So if paying too much attention to combine results is a sucker's game, what would you call paying too little to them?


I don't know. I suppose I'd say it's somewhere between understandable and irresponsible, depending on the circumstances (understandable if a player is coming off an injury or something). I think film study and in-person scouting are WAY more important, as are interviews, and I also believe the combine results that tend to get the most attention (40 times, weightlifting numbers and jumps) are less important than the drills players run at the combine. In the end, while information can be gleaned from a workout, it's still just a workout. Game performance is far more important and a better indication of what to expect from a player.

BTW, just to be clear, I meant paying too much attention to combine results is a sucker's game for teams. I hope that didn't come across any other way.

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Teo performed well in college, that's true. I think he'll be a serviceable pro. But he's not worth a 1st round pick based on his measureables.


Perhaps not but his measurables shouldn't be the determining factor and who knows? He may post a different set of measurables at his pro day.

Quote:
You can turn it over any way you want, but as I stated to another poster, I think Teo is the MLB version of Tebow. I see lots of the same types of reasoning being given as to why Teo merits a 1st round grade.


I think they're worlds apart. Tebow's skill set was a major question mark coming out of college and it remains so today. That's not the case with Te'o. He projects as a good pro MLB. Whether he should have a first round grade or not is debatable and I imagine opinions will vary on that among teams, just like they have among fans and draft prognosticators.


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saint33 wrote:
The thing that separates the two is instincts and knowledge and that is very evident on tape. In these two facets of the game, Te'o is light years ahead of Brinkley. That's where I laugh at the comparison, because Te'o is a far more gifted football player. And I bolded those two words for a reason. Not athlete, but football player. Brinkley was a late round prospect, Te'o is a top 3 prospect at his position, how you can not grasp the difference is beyond me. Put aside the numbers and simply watch the two players, and it's night and day. Te'o understanding of the game, the way he commands the position, and he overall feel for the game is what makes him so good.


Instincts and knowledge that is "very evident" on tape? Doesn't the fact that someone disagrees with you in regards to that indicate it's not that evident? I *have* watched the two and I don't see that much of a difference in the way they move. They strike me as similar from a physical perspective. Now maybe Teo brings more "leadership", "knowledge", or "intangibles", but those alone could not possibly vault an otherwise physically-similar prospect up from the 5th to the 1st round of any draft (or at least they shouldn't).

I see in another post you accused me of not "liking" Teo. I want to be clear - I don't dislike him at all. I just don't like the thought of the Vikes using a 1st to get him. I don't even like the thought of them using a 2nd to get him. A 3rd I could stomach, but that's the highest I'd say he should go. The Tebow comparison is justified based on the hype around both players compared to their underwhelming physical performances at the Combine. Those performances did not justify 1st round grades for either player, yet both appear to have benefited greatly from their "non-measurables" and college performances. We saw where those attributes got Tebow in the pros, and while Teo may do better as a pro than Tebow, I think there is a real danger in projecting a player's potential in the pros when he has clear physical shortcomings. One could argue that the closest thing to a pro offense in terms of size and speed that Teo faced in college was that of the Crimson Tide, and that's one of the reasons that performance is being out-weighted relatively-speaking. The players in the NFL are generally the biggest, fastest, and most skilled. Those facts will place even greater demands on Teo's physical limitations. Can his "non-measureables" compensate for that to the degree necessary for him to continue out-performing as a pro? I'm not convinced of that, and thus I would drop him down into the middle rounds of the draft before I'd consider him.

I am not saying Teo can't thrive in the NFL, or even that I don't want the Vikes to draft him. He may very well turn into a dominant MLB, and I've even gone on record in other posts saying I think he will turn out to be a good or very good NFL player. So I'm not predicting he will fail by any means, and if it's come off that way I apologize. I just don't think he merits a high draft grade.


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Mothman wrote:
I think they're worlds apart. Tebow's skill set was a major question mark coming out of college and it remains so today. That's not the case with Te'o. He projects as a good pro MLB. Whether he should have a first round grade or not is debatable and I imagine opinions will vary on that among teams, just like they have among fans and draft prognosticators.


IIRC, the main ding on Tebow was his long windup, which is something that can be corrected by coaching and hard work. It's harder to improve one's overall speed at this point in their career, though, which is my main knock on Teo.

Just for the record, I am not predicting failure. More or less, I'm acknowledging what hype can do to an individual's draft stock. Teo may very well turn into an excellent pro, and will probably do no worse than become a serviceable pro. For me, the 1st round is for swinging for the fences, which is why guys with rare skillsets should be targeted there if at all possible.


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Post Re: MLB prospects
VikingLord wrote:
I want to be clear - I don't dislike him at all. I just don't like the thought of the Vikes using a 1st to get him. I don't even like the thought of them using a 2nd to get him. A 3rd I could stomach, but that's the highest I'd say he should go.


That's an interesting perspective. I'm not saying you're wrong but you're in the distinct minority as I haven't read a single evaluation, scouting report or expert saying he should be any lower than the second round and you're saying third at the earliest? Heck, Mayock has him as his #2 overall ILB. I think you're seeing something very few people are seeing.

Quote:
The Tebow comparison is justified based on the hype around both players compared to their underwhelming physical performances at the Combine. Those performances did not justify 1st round grades for either player, yet both appear to have benefited greatly from their "non-measurables" and college performances.


They also benefit from game tape and outcomes.

Quote:
We saw where those attributes got Tebow in the pros, and while Teo may do better as a pro than Tebow, I think there is a real danger in projecting a player's potential in the pros when he has clear physical shortcomings.


Obviously you need to have some athletic ability, but being a great athlete doesn't always guarantee NFL results (Gholston, Williamson, and countless others). I'm also not sure how "short" his shortcomings are. I suppose it depends on what your expectations are. As I posted elsewhere, James Laurinaitis ran a 4.82 40 and he just signed a six-year, $42 million contract as one of the top MLB in the league.

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I think there is a real danger in projecting a player's potential in the pros when he has clear physical shortcomings. One could argue that the closest thing to a pro offense in terms of size and speed that Teo faced in college was that of the Crimson Tide, and that's one of the reasons that performance is being out-weighted relatively-speaking. The players in the NFL are generally the biggest, fastest, and most skilled. Those facts will place even greater demands on Teo's physical limitations. Can his "non-measureables" compensate for that to the degree necessary for him to continue out-performing as a pro?


Look at it from the perspective of his career, not just one game one season. It's really hard to argue with his production and there's always going to be a disparity in the level of collegiate competition. That's not to say he didn't rise to the occasion in other games. Heck, even HOF NFL quarterbacks (or any position player) probably had sub-par games in college, and likely against the toughest of competition.

Quote:
I am not saying Teo can't thrive in the NFL, or even that I don't want the Vikes to draft him. He may very well turn into a dominant MLB, and I've even gone on record in other posts saying I think he will turn out to be a good or very good NFL player. So I'm not predicting he will fail by any means, and if it's come off that way I apologize. I just don't think he merits a high draft grade.


It's just an interesting perspective when he's commonly seen as a 1-2 round pick by scouts/"experts" and you have a significantly lower grade than conventional wisdom suggests. Will your perspective change if his 40 improves at his pro day?

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VikingLord wrote:
I am not saying Teo can't thrive in the NFL, or even that I don't want the Vikes to draft him. He may very well turn into a dominant MLB, and I've even gone on record in other posts saying I think he will turn out to be a good or very good NFL player. So I'm not predicting he will fail by any means, and if it's come off that way I apologize. I just don't think he merits a high draft grade.


Just out of curiosity, have you seen any more of Te'o than highlights and/or the Alabama game? I ask because having watched him quite a bit, I think his instincts and knowledge definitely come through on the tape and there's no way he projects as a third rounder.

I have to turn around the question you asked saint33 and ask: doesn't the fact that Te'o is widely projected as a first round pick (or at least a second round pick) make you question your assessment that the highest he should go is in R3? As dead_poet wrote above, that evaluation places you in a distinct minority.

I understand the comparison you're attempting to make with Tebow but it's really an "apples and oranges" comparison. Tebow is a convenient example to illustrate that college production doesn't always translate to the pros but other than being heavily-hyped college players, there's very little similarity between Tebow and Te'o. Tebow had far more "dings" than a long windup. There were serious concerns about his accuracy, his inexperience in pro style offenses, his ability to read defenses, his footwork...

VikingLord wrote:
, the main ding on Tebow was his long windup, which is something that can be corrected by coaching and hard work. It's harder to improve one's overall speed at this point in their career, though, which is my main knock on Teo.


... and that's based on his 40 time at the combine, correct? He's doesn't play slow.

You might find this interesting:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/fo ... 3299.story

Quote:
“I did OK,” Teo said in an NFL Network interview from the combine. “I can obviously do a lot better. That's what pro days are for.”

That opportunity is almost here but a veteran NFL scout that spoke to the Tribune on the condition of anonymity pointed out measured time is just a small part of the evaluation process.

“I think it’s important for his draft stock,” the scout said. “But it doesn’t matter to me. His positional drills will show you more if he can be a three-down player. I think he can be a three-down mike (middle linebacker) but not on the outside. It’s close. You’d like a mike that runs better but you could get away with him.

“Playing fast and running fast are two different things. Guys get enamored so much with speed. Tell me, does it show up on tape when you watch the kid? I don’t think you watched the kid and said, ‘He’s slow.’ I don’t think what he runs Tuesday will change what most teams saw on tape.”


Quote:
The scout projects Te’o as a potential late first-round draft pick and said if a team selects him in the second round, it will feel good about the value. Maybe Te’o can enhance his stock just a little by running faster.


Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:31 pm
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dead_poet wrote:
It's just an interesting perspective when he's commonly seen as a 1-2 round pick by scouts/"experts" and you have a significantly lower grade than conventional wisdom suggests. Will your perspective change if his 40 improves at his pro day?


I know I'm definitely in the minority and based on that I'm likely wrong. I'm fine with that, but my opinion won't change at this point.

Someone is going to take Teo and I hope he does well as a pro. Heck, I'd love to be wrong because maybe Teo will turn into one of the all-time greats and those guys are fun to watch. I just can't shake my assessment of him in regards to where I think he should be drafted at this point.


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Mothman wrote:
I have to turn around the question you asked saint33 and ask: doesn't the fact that Te'o is widely projected as a first round pick (or at least a second round pick) make you question your assessment that the highest he should go is in R3? As dead_poet wrote above, that evaluation places you in a distinct minority.


Not really. Lots of guys are "consensus" high draft picks and flop in the pros.

Mothman wrote:
... and that's based on his 40 time at the combine, correct? He's doesn't play slow.


Maybe not, but I have watched Teo play and from what I see he's great playing in that 15-20 yard box, but not so much outside it. I think the quality of the defensive front 4 and scheme will be critical to Teo's success as a pro. Will Teo thrive nn a Tampa 2 defense like the one Frazier seems to favor where the MLB has to turn and run sometimes 40 yards down the seam with an athletic TE?

Mothman wrote:
You might find this interesting:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/fo ... 3299.story

Quote:
“I did OK,” Teo said in an NFL Network interview from the combine. “I can obviously do a lot better. That's what pro days are for.”

That opportunity is almost here but a veteran NFL scout that spoke to the Tribune on the condition of anonymity pointed out measured time is just a small part of the evaluation process.

“I think it’s important for his draft stock,” the scout said. “But it doesn’t matter to me. His positional drills will show you more if he can be a three-down player. I think he can be a three-down mike (middle linebacker) but not on the outside. It’s close. You’d like a mike that runs better but you could get away with him.

“Playing fast and running fast are two different things. Guys get enamored so much with speed. Tell me, does it show up on tape when you watch the kid? I don’t think you watched the kid and said, ‘He’s slow.’ I don’t think what he runs Tuesday will change what most teams saw on tape.”


The scout projects Te’o as a potential late first-round draft pick and said if a team selects him in the second round, it will feel good about the value. Maybe Te’o can enhance his stock just a little by running faster.


Maybe, but this evaluation isn't all that different from my take on Teo. This scout just seems to think the limitations aren't significant, while I see them as more significant. I mean, look at what the guy says - "You'd like a mike that runs better, but you could get away with him." That's how a 1st round prospect is described? The praise sounds tepid to me. Plus, what credentials does this scout possess in terms of evaluating linebackers? We assume the scout has experience with it and a track record to prove he can evaluate that position, but for all I know this is some guy who has marginal experience/success in that area.

None of this changes my perspective, and at this point if the Vikes do go for a MLB at either of their 1st rounders I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Arthur Brown.


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VikingLord wrote:
Not really. Lots of guys are "consensus" high draft picks and flop in the pros.


So you're confident in your assessment that Te'o is a 3rd round talent at best even though you're virtually alone in that assessment? You may end up being right but you have to admit, you're taking a pretty unusual position. If it seems like some of us are pushing back a little hard on this subject, I think that's why. I can understand not giving Te'o a first round grade but you've gone much further than that.

Quote:
Maybe not, but I have watched Teo play and from what I see he's great playing in that 15-20 yard box, but not so much outside it. I think the quality of the defensive front 4 and scheme will be critical to Teo's success as a pro. Will Teo thrive nn a Tampa 2 defense like the one Frazier seems to favor where the MLB has to turn and run sometimes 40 yards down the seam with an athletic TE?


The MLB in the Vikes "Tampa 2" has some deep drops but the Vikings, rarely, if ever, ask their MLB to cover a TE 40 yards downfield without help so I don't think that should be a major concern in determining who plays the position for them. If a route goes that deep, it's going into a safety's zone and the MLB should be responsible for covering the underside of the route while the safety would need to get over the top and prevent a completion.The ability to read, react and make the right call, the ability to take on blockers and fill against the run and the ability to handle zone coverage duties in the 15-20 yard range are much, much more important in the Vikings scheme than an MLB's coverage abilities so far down the field.

Quote:
Maybe, but this evaluation isn't all that different from my take on Teo. This scout just seems to think the limitations aren't significant, while I see them as more significant. I mean, look at what the guy says - "You'd like a mike that runs better, but you could get away with him." That's how a 1st round prospect is described? The praise sounds tepid to me.


It is a bit tepid but there's no shortage of enthusiastic praise for what Te'o can do either.

Is the following how you want to see 1st round MLB prospect described? "Rarely uses hands to fight with blockers despite an aggressive mentality. Overruns a lot of plays between the tackles, struggles to recover. Has a lot of issues dealing with second level blocks from the offensive line, rarely can work over top of them, there winds up walled off. Run and chase player at this point, loses gap integrity with false or wasted steps."

That's how the draft profile at NFL.com describes Ogletree and cbssportsline's profile says the following: " ... make no mistake about it, the missed tackles are an issue, which if not corrected, give Ogletree some Aaron Curry-like bust potential as well."

They also describe him as an exciting prospect but the point is all of these guys have shortcomings. There's no perfect prospect and at this time of year, it's rare to see praise that isn't also accompanied by some talk of weaknesses.

Quote:
Plus, what credentials does this scout possess in terms of evaluating linebackers? We assume the scout has experience with it and a track record to prove he can evaluate that position, but for all I know this is some guy who has marginal experience/success in that area.


That's a fair point although, as a paid NFL scout, I think it's safe to assume he has more experience as a talent evaluator than we do. :)

Quote:
None of this changes my perspective, and at this point if the Vikes do go for a MLB at either of their 1st rounders I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Arthur Brown.


He's definitely a good prospect but there's also this:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1619684
Quote:
Stands out on tape for his size, physicality and open-field tackling, but hasn't proven to be much of a playmaker over his career, posting "just" three interceptions and not a single forced fumble over his collegiate career. Struggles while at Miami open up concerns about how well he'll handle the jump to an NFL team further from home.


They all have "warts".


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Mothman wrote:
Is the following how you want to see 1st round MLB prospect described? "Rarely uses hands to fight with blockers despite an aggressive mentality. Overruns a lot of plays between the tackles, struggles to recover. Has a lot of issues dealing with second level blocks from the offensive line, rarely can work over top of them, there winds up walled off. Run and chase player at this point, loses gap integrity with false or wasted steps."

That's how the draft profile at NFL.com describes Ogletree and cbssportsline's profile says the following: " ... make no mistake about it, the missed tackles are an issue, which if not corrected, give Ogletree some Aaron Curry-like bust potential as well."


Fair enough, but I never said Ogletree was a can't-miss and, as far as I recall, have always stated the guy is a risky pick for a variety of reasons, some on-field, some off-field. I do think he has 1st-round potential, though, as many of the things listed as weaknesses can be overcome with hard work and good coaching.

Mothman wrote:
He's definitely a good prospect but there's also this:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1619684
Quote:
Stands out on tape for his size, physicality and open-field tackling, but hasn't proven to be much of a playmaker over his career, posting "just" three interceptions and not a single forced fumble over his collegiate career. Struggles while at Miami open up concerns about how well he'll handle the jump to an NFL team further from home.


They all have "warts".


Also a fair point. Brown intrigues me more for the fact that he reminds me a lot of Ed McDaniel and he was one of my favorite Vikings of all time (believe that or not). I just loved how he played the game despite the fact that many felt he was undersized as well. So maybe that experience is coloring my perception of Brown. Likewise, when I watch Teo move I'm reminded of Jasper Brinkley. I don't think Brinkley was terrible, so don't get me wrong at all. I think he is a solid linebacker, but that's what I see.


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VikingLord wrote:
Also a fair point. Brown intrigues me more for the fact that he reminds me a lot of Ed McDaniel and he was one of my favorite Vikings of all time (believe that or not).


I believe it. I was a big McDaniel fan too! He was an underrated player.

Quote:
I just loved how he played the game despite the fact that many felt he was undersized as well. So maybe that experience is coloring my perception of Brown. Likewise, when I watch Teo move I'm reminded of Jasper Brinkley. I don't think Brinkley was terrible, so don't get me wrong at all. I think he is a solid linebacker, but that's what I see.


I think he's more instinctive and more of a playmaker than Brinkley but even though I disagree with the comparison, I understand what you're saying. Te'o's doesn't play slow but he doesn't stand out as a speedy LB either.


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saint33 wrote:
3. Kevin Minter - Similar to Te'o, better in run support than pass coverage. A downhill LB, solid in his reads and his instincts. Solid tackler, is good and shedding blocks and getting to the ball carrier. Really, there's a lot of similarities between Te'o and Minter's games. The thing that separates them to me though is that Te'o has more of a knack for game changing plays, and his on field leadership and presence is felt more than Minter. I have no problems with drafting Minter, he'll end up being a solid starting LB in the NFL. But I'd prefer them to trade down and grab him if they target him, and I'd be disappointed if we picked him over Te'o or Brown.


Just wondering but what games did you see where you felt Minter lacked on-field leadership? I've seen this guy play a lot of football and not once did he seem to be anything but a strong leader, especially given the ferocity of his efforts. He's also played as a 3 down MLB against SEC offenses and faced some of the best firepower in the nation.

Admittedly, I haven't seen much of Te'o at all, so maybe he is all that. But no way can Minter's leadership or even his presence on the field be questioned.

None of the MLBs are perfect, so I think the Vikings are going to do a lot of homework on this and I have no idea which player they'll pick. As a result, if they pick Te'o, I won't doubt their decision. And if they pick Minter, even if it's over Te'o or Brown, I'm not going to doubt their reasons for that either. Personally, I think these guys are closely matched, with one guy's weakness being another guy's strength, and vice versa.


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Post Re: MLB prospects
This has been a great thread to read thus far. Thanks so much for sharing opinions and analysis.

What I can take away from it for now is that there are several ,5-6, guys who have the potential to fill this position for us. A large part of the decision will be determined by who is left by the time we pick. The guy in charge of scouting was a solid MLB for years....

Another thing I found interesting was the snippet about the time for first 20yds of the 40 time being the most important for certain positions, like DL/MLB. It's the difference between top speed and being quick. A good thing to remember IMO.

Personally, after reading all the different takes, I find myself attracted to the lower profile prospects and hope we wind up with one of them. Brown and Minter are intriguing.

All in all, the draft is becoming one of my favorite events of the season.


Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:32 pm
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Post Re: MLB prospects
losperros wrote:
saint33 wrote:
3. Kevin Minter - Similar to Te'o, better in run support than pass coverage. A downhill LB, solid in his reads and his instincts. Solid tackler, is good and shedding blocks and getting to the ball carrier. Really, there's a lot of similarities between Te'o and Minter's games. The thing that separates them to me though is that Te'o has more of a knack for game changing plays, and his on field leadership and presence is felt more than Minter. I have no problems with drafting Minter, he'll end up being a solid starting LB in the NFL. But I'd prefer them to trade down and grab him if they target him, and I'd be disappointed if we picked him over Te'o or Brown.


Just wondering but what games did you see where you felt Minter lacked on-field leadership? I've seen this guy play a lot of football and not once did he seem to be anything but a strong leader, especially given the ferocity of his efforts. He's also played as a 3 down MLB against SEC offenses and faced some of the best firepower in the nation.

Admittedly, I haven't seen much of Te'o at all, so maybe he is all that. But no way can Minter's leadership or even his presence on the field be questioned.

None of the MLBs are perfect, so I think the Vikings are going to do a lot of homework on this and I have no idea which player they'll pick. As a result, if they pick Te'o, I won't doubt their decision. And if they pick Minter, even if it's over Te'o or Brown, I'm not going to doubt their reasons for that either. Personally, I think these guys are closely matched, with one guy's weakness being another guy's strength, and vice versa.


I think you're misreading my point. I'm not suggesting Minter lacks leadership. He's a solid on field leader, but he doesn't have rare leadership qualities that Te'o has. Te'o appears to lift the player's around him. As I said, Te'o and Minter are so closely comparable. I wouldn't be devastated if they took Minter over Te'o. I just feel like neither is incredibly gifted physically but both are sound instinctual players, so the only thing that separates them really for me is that fact that Te'o has more "special" qualities.

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Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:35 am
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Post Re: MLB prospects
Can't believe someone was comparing Brinkley and Te'o! :)

The guy in this draft that reminds me the most of Brinkley is Jonathan Stewart. Brinkley is really prototypical, size-wise and athletically. Stewart is that guy among this year's crop, though I think Stewart is probably better at reading offenses.

The problems with Jasper are kind of obvious. Athletically he's all there, but when you watch the guy, he just doesn't seem very good at reading offenses because he always seemed like he was desperately trying to get in good position. Te'o is a far more polished linebacker. Even after a couple of years, Brink still wasn't too consistent...despite his tackle numbers. Te'o is probably the most NFL starter-ready of this bunch of linebackers. He may not have the most upside, but he's probably the guy out of this group I could see starting right away pretty easily.

That said, Brink might be better served in a 3-4 where he could maybe rely more on his athleticism.

Te'o isn't really the best fit for the Vikings, that would probably be Ogletree. Ogletree is perfect in a Tampa-2, a guy who knows how to play football, can read offenses, can backpedal, can tackle. The guy is basically a young Urlacher. I think Minter is a guy who can read offenses well enough and make good enough decisions that with some coaching, could be a pretty great linebacker as well. Te'o is a really good football player and I think is a pretty good fit for the Vikings defense as well. Ogletree probably has the ability to chase down guys who break away and I don't think Te'o is fast enough to do that...that's probably the only advantage drafting Ogletree has over Te'o.

If you want a reliable guy with few off-field problems, though, I'd suggest Kevin Minter or Arthur Brown. Only problem with Minter is that Alan Williams would have to figure out a way to give him help in coverage. He's a guy who'll stuff the run but maybe get burned against quick passes over the middle. Brown is pretty much a complete package type of guy, but he relies a little more on instincts than quickness. This is just from what I've managed to gather from all over, and figuring how it would fit into Williams's defense. Arif's post on this subject over at DailyNorseman is pretty solid, though I get the feeling he's trying to sell a few of those guys that are kind of surprises.

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Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:38 am
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