WRs to watch

[Mothman]

Is there a dearth of WRs?

This is sort of assumed that the lack of explosiveness in the passing game was because of the WRs, but I just didn't see them get that many chances.

It's assumed because it was evident. They had chances and they didn't make much of them, which is almost certainly a factor in why they didn't get more chances. It was apparent from early in the season forward that the Vikes didn't have much confidence in their WRs not named Harvin and it was easy to see why. Reporters and announcers pointed out the obvious shortcomings in the WR corps week after week and they were there for all to see.

Conventional wisdom says they couldn't get open. I'm not sure about that. I think they were open and/or could be thrown open by a more experienced and confidence QB, which the Vikings didn't have for most of last year. If I saw them constantly biffing plays I might think differently, but I'm just not sure I buy the conventional wisdom that all the Vikes need are better WRs and the passing game will automatically become more productive.

I don't know if that's the conventional wisdom or not but for obvious reasons, improving the quality of the receivers seems likely to result in improved production from the receivers, doesn't it? If the Vikings could put A.J. Green on the field instead of Michael Jenkins, don't you think Green would probably get open and make more plays than Jenkins did? We all understand that Ponder has to get better regardless of what happens at WR and that the protection has to improve, etc. but how hard is it buy that better receivers will probably lead to more productivity? Maybe a more experienced QB could have thrown Jenkins or Simpson open more often but let's face it, you could have put a Manning at QB last season and Jenkins still wasn't going to be that productive.

[Mothman]

Is there a dearth of WRs?

This is sort of assumed that the lack of explosiveness in the passing game was because of the WRs, but I just didn't see them get that many chances.

It's assumed because it was evident. They had chances and they didn't make much of them, which is almost certainly a factor in why they didn't get more chances. It was apparent from early in the season forward that the Vikes didn't have much confidence in their WRs not named Harvin and it was easy to see why. Reporters and announcers pointed out the obvious shortcomings in the WR corps week after week and they were there for all to see.

Conventional wisdom says they couldn't get open. I'm not sure about that. I think they were open and/or could be thrown open by a more experienced and confidence QB, which the Vikings didn't have for most of last year. If I saw them constantly biffing plays I might think differently, but I'm just not sure I buy the conventional wisdom that all the Vikes need are better WRs and the passing game will automatically become more productive.

I don't know if that's the conventional wisdom or not but for obvious reasons, improving the quality of the receivers seems likely to result in improved production from the receivers, doesn't it? If the Vikings could put A.J. Green on the field instead of Michael Jenkins, don't you think Green would probably get open and make more plays than Jenkins did? We all understand that Ponder has to get better regardless of what happens at WR and that the protection has to improve, etc. but how hard is it buy that better receivers will probably lead to more productivity? Maybe a more experienced QB could have thrown Jenkins or Simpson open more often but let's face it, you could have put a Manning at QB last season and Jenkins still wasn't going to be that productive.

[PurpleKoolaid]

So many here are just dont see how close the good QBs throw to WRs that dont look open and dont have seperation, yet they complete passes. Once in a while they are also picked off. I think the coached scared Ponder so much, basically because of the sideline route, where he threw so many INTs, to not even try and thread the needle. This has got to end. Ponder had t take chances on those 3rd yard plays and get the first. If he gains his cofdence back, I think he can be that average QB, with 250-300 yards per game.

[VikingLord]

It's assumed because it was evident. They had chances and they didn't make much of them, which is almost certainly a factor in why they didn't get more chances. It was apparent from early in the season forward that the Vikes didn't have much confidence in their WRs not named Harvin and it was easy to see why. Reporters and announcers pointed out the obvious shortcomings in the WR corps week after week and they were there for all to see.

First, it isn't evident, or at least as evident as you seem to believe, which is why I'm questioning it.

Second, the "Vikings" didn't have confidence in them, or Ponder didn't? Why even put guys on the field when you don't have confidence in them? As far as I know there are no rules stating you have to put WRs on the field. You put your best players on the field, and I'd have to assume if the Vikings kept a guy like Jenkins around they did it because they wanted to - not because they had to.

Didn't Jenkins make a big play in that first game against Jacksonville on the last drive to tie? Weren't other players quoted as crediting him with keeping the offense together late in that game in the huddle? And this is a guy who is being bandied about as "evidence" that the Vikings WRs all sucked (those WRs not named Harvin of course)...

Sorry, I just don't buy it. The Vikings WRs were not studs last year, but they were not as bad as people make them out to be. They just didn't get that many chances to make plays, not because they consistently couldn't get open, but because the ball simply wasn't thrown their way.

I don't know if that's the conventional wisdom or not but for obvious reasons, improving the quality of the receivers seems likely to result in improved production from the receivers, doesn't it? If the Vikings could put A.J. Green on the field instead of Michael Jenkins, don't you think Green would probably get open and make more plays than Jenkins did? We all understand that Ponder has to get better regardless of what happens at WR and that the protection has to improve, etc. but how hard is it buy that better receivers will probably lead to more productivity? Maybe a more experienced QB could have thrown Jenkins or Simpson open more often but let's face it, you could have put a Manning at QB last season and Jenkins still wasn't going to be that productive.

How productive did he need to be, and how many opportunities was he given via a ball thrown to him to be that productive? Jenkins might not have run the greatest routes or gotten huge separation, but can't we agree that in order to fail Jenkins has to have the ball thrown his way and be given a chance to fail? Ponder really sucked for a large chunk of last season, and these guys were not getting balls thrown their way so they could even fail. People chalk it up to the WR's not getting separation, but we all saw Ponder's lack of confidence and unwillingness to throw all but the safest of passes for a large part of the season. Jenkins may indeed suck and I agree there are better WRs out there than him, but what I don't agree with is him being pilloried because he never had chances to make plays on the ball. I think the Vikings WRs "sucked" before Favre got here too, and suddenly with Favre they were awesome. The QB plays a much bigger role in the success of WRs than the WRs do in the success of the QB IMHO. I think guys like Manning, Favre, and Brady prove that - they succeed year-in and year-out despite outliving and outlasting different WRs.

I agree with the basic philosophy. All teams can use better players, and if Spielman has the opportunity to do that this offseason he should.

What I don't agree with is this seeming assumption that the Vikings have to take a WR at #23.

[VikingLord]

I think you need to go back and watch every game this season and watch the WR's. I want you to count how many times they were open or got any kind of separation. If you are going to argue the norm, then show some proof they got open. I watched every game this year and some games twice because I wanted to blame it all on Ponder and I was sick of him. Once I focused my eyes on the WR's running their routes, I saw what the problem was. Ask someone who went to a game. There is a member on here that was just talking about this. he went to the game in Seattle and he said it was pathetic watching our WR's on the field. They could not separate for a single second almost all game.

I remember a member on here who was at a game remarking exactly the opposite of what you are saying. I recall him saying the WRs were wide open but Ponder wasn't pulling the trigger. I recall Frazier at one of his post-game press conferences saying Ponder wasn't pulling the trigger and needed to get better at that. I remember Troy Aikman's commentary from one of the Vikings games that he called saying the same thing - that Ponder had guys open in a "pro" window but wasn't attempting the throws. For a lot of laymen and otherwise, Ponder was the problem, or a least a bigger contributor to it.

Also, are you saying defenses only played man against the Vikings WRs all year, because I find it impossible to believe the Vikings WRs can't get separation against zone. Even poor route runners can find holes in zone coverage and will often come open multiple times on routes run through zones. It's just beyond belief that there weren't more opportunities to get the ball down the field last year, especially with AD tearing it up.

I am not going to go back and watch all the games to try to prove any point, and I agree that Spielman should try to upgrade the WRs, but only to give Ponder more options. Ultimately, there is no WR that can be added that will force Ponder to uncork a throw into a tight window or take a chance. There is no WR upgrade that can force Ponder to see the whole field or make accurate throws. In the end, improvement in the Vikings passing attack is going to come down to the progression and development of Ponder.

I'm going to go on record right now and say that the only 2 WRs that Spielman might spend #23 on in the draft are Patterson and Austin. If neither of those players is there, he won't spend it on a WR and will look to add a WR in the 2nd, 3rd, or with the first of the 4th rounders. That's how confident that I am that I'm right.

[Demi]

If you want a qb to throw fo 4000 yards, then you need weapons on the field that can get that separation to make the plays.

You also need a QB with the guts to make tough throws. And the ability to recognize when guys are completely uncovered. Which time and again even the announcers were pointing out. But Ponder clearly wasn't seeing. How many times did Brady put up 4000 yards with no name receivers? It's been done. How many times have bum #### quarterbacks put up 4000 yards regardless of the talent around them?

[PurpleKoolaid]

How many times have teams ran for 1500-2000 yards a season and passed for 4000? Run first team is what we are, and an average QB is what we have. All we need is for him to not turn the ball over and throw for around 3000 yards. And in order to not turn the ball over, you dont take as many chances. If we get some WR's that get separation, and help build Ponder's confidence, he could easily make the plays we need to stay a playoff contender.

I dont think we have a shot at the SB with the team we have no matter what QB we have back there. Until we fix our issues at WR, CB, DT, LB we have no need to replace Ponder. There is NO ONE out there that can be the answer right now. We need to stop wasting money on Favre's and Mcnabbs and wait until we get the right guy in the draft. It is stupid to bring in an average QB like an Alex Smith when we are trying to rebuild and become a Franchise that competes for the SB every year.

Wrong. If we had a Rogers, Brady, Peyton, they would pick apart every D that tried to stop AD. With the WRs we have now. Well if he could stay alive, our pass protection is horrid, which is why we should fix our line first.

[Mothman]

You also need a QB with the guts to make tough throws. And the ability to recognize when guys are completely uncovered. Which time and again even the announcers were pointing out. But Ponder clearly wasn't seeing. How many times did Brady put up 4000 yards with no name receivers?

Zero? Unless Branch, Moss and Welker were "no name receivers", Brady has never had a 4000 yard season with no-name receivers. The closest would be 2005, when Brady had his first 4000 yard passing season and did it by distributing the ball to a wide variety of targets, with Branch (78 catches, 998 yards) as the most productive of the bunch. Branch was an established weapon and former Super Bowl MVP by that point so he hardly qualified as a no-name receiver.

[Mothman]

First, it isn't evident, or at least as evident as you seem to believe, which is why I'm questioning it.

To me, when the WRs (other than Harvin) were clearly struggling to get separation and not showing much explosiveness when they did get the ball, and when broadcasters and sportswriters were pointing this out and talking about the need for more talent at the position on a more or less weekly basis, it was evident. If you need more than that, we'll just have to disagree.

Second, the "Vikings" didn't have confidence in them, or Ponder didn't? Why even put guys on the field when you don't have confidence in them? As far as I know there are no rules stating you have to put WRs on the field.

Of course there are...

Didn't Jenkins make a big play in that first game against Jacksonville on the last drive to tie? Weren't other players quoted as crediting him with keeping the offense together late in that game in the huddle? And this is a guy who is being bandied about as "evidence" that the Vikings WRs all sucked (those WRs not named Harvin of course)...

I don't think Jenkins sucks. I just believe they can do better. I don't think he's incompetent either. He's slowed down quite a bit and is inadequate as a starter but he's not incompetent. He has skills but they're in decline and he's just not starting NFL material anymore, even though he can still make some plays and help a team.

Sorry, I just don't buy it. The Vikings WRs were not studs last year, but they were not as bad as people make them out to be. They just didn't get that many chances to make plays, not because they consistently couldn't get open, but because the ball simply wasn't thrown their way.

I think it was a mix of factors and trying to place blame on just the QB or just the WRs is a complete waste of time. The Vikings receivers had plenty of chances to make plays. Only one made many of them. I attended a game and watched almost every other game twice, often referring to the coaches film on NFL.com. I paid a lot of attention to the passing game and the receivers struggled to get open. That's what I saw and I don't think it was my imagination at work, nor do I believe the many writers, broadcasters and fans who saw the same problem were imagining things. Ponder missed some opportunities so the receivers shouldn't take all the blame but overall, they just weren't very good.

How productive did he need to be, and how many opportunities was he given via a ball thrown to him to be that productive? Jenkins might not have run the greatest routes or gotten huge separation, but can't we agree that in order to fail Jenkins has to have the ball thrown his way and be given a chance to fail?

Yes and no. He did have the ball thrown his way but a receiver can fail without having the ball thrown to him and that can be why it's not thrown to him.

Ponder really sucked for a large chunk of last season, and these guys were not getting balls thrown their way so they could even fail. People chalk it up to the WR's not getting separation, but we all saw Ponder's lack of confidence and unwillingness to throw all but the safest of passes for a large part of the season. Jenkins may indeed suck and I agree there are better WRs out there than him, but what I don't agree with is him being pilloried because he never had chances to make plays on the ball.

"Pilloried"? Please, I'm not ridiculing Jenkins, just holding him up as an example of where the Vikings need to get better. It's ridiculous to act as if he didn't get chances to make plays on the ball. He was second among the Vikings WRs in receiving and he had quite a few more passes thrown his way than he caught.

I think the Vikings WRs "sucked" before Favre got here too, and suddenly with Favre they were awesome.

I don't know about "awesome" but he helped them. However, Rice was actually healthy all season for the first time in his career and they added Harvin to the roster in the 2009 draft, so Favre was working with more than Frerotte and Jackson were in 2008 too. He was much better than either of those guys so that made a difference but he had more to work with too. Rice was a better downfield receiver than any of the WRs the Vikes had on their roster last season.

The QB plays a much bigger role in the success of WRs than the WRs do in the success of the QB IMHO. I think guys like Manning, Favre, and Brady prove that - they succeed year-in and year-out despite outliving and outlasting different WRs.

But they've benefited from good targets as much as anyone else. Manning, Favre and Brady are/were great but they've had Harrison, Wayne, Sharpe, Thomas, Freeman, Brooks, Branch, Moss, Welker.... and so on.

I agree with the basic philosophy. All teams can use better players, and if Spielman has the opportunity to do that this offseason he should.

What I don't agree with is this seeming assumption that the Vikings have to take a WR at #23.

Who is making that assumption? It's a big need but I think most of the fans around here realize it's not the only need and would be okay with the Vikings addressing another position in R1 if the team believes there's a better player available at another position.

[Mothman]

I remember a member on here who was at a game remarking exactly the opposite of what you are saying. I recall him saying the WRs were wide open but Ponder wasn't pulling the trigger.

I recall that too and when I went back and watched that game, I strongly disagreed with him. Believe who/what you want but I think some fans just see a guy running with separation and think he's open. However, if they aren't paying attention to when that happens, it can be very misleading. For example, if a QB's progression is from left to right, his first read on the left might come open but if he comes open late, after the QB has already moved on to another read, it doesn't matter. The receiver not only has to get open, he has to do so at the right time, according to the play design. A QB can't continually read the entire field throughout the duration of a play. He has to look from one spot to the next.

[Mothman]

This is interesting (emphasis mine):

http://www.nj.com/times-sports/index.ss ... ft_pr.html

Here’s a look at the top wide receivers and tight end in this year’s draft with a scout’s take on each of them.

• Keenan Allen, California, 6-3, 205 — “The most polished of the receivers, the most ready to play of all of them. He will be a pretty high pick, and he should be.”

Southern California's Robert Woods, left, had a chance to make an impact in the NFL.

• Cordarrelle Patterson, Tennessee, 6-3, 205 — “He’s explosive. He’s dynamic. He runs consistent 4.4s, I’m just not sure how smart he is. You’re going to have to keep it simple for him. But the kid is really dynamic.”

[Texas Vike]

This is interesting (emphasis mine):

http://www.nj.com/times-sports/index.ss ... ft_pr.html

It's interesting that the author doesn't include Justin Hunter. I also found his take on Hopkins to be interesting--he sees nothing special, especially b/c of his lack of speed.

[Pepper2Moss]

I usually get my heart set on a receiver every year... I think I'm set on Keenan Allen this year.

[Texas Vike]

I usually get my heart set on a receiver every year... I think I'm set on Keenan Allen this year.

He might just make it to 23. I think Cordarelle Paterson will go first in the 10-20 range.

[Rus]

Senior bowl note:
http://www.nfl.com/seniorbowl/story/0ap ... ustin-pugh

I've been saying this for awhile...Wheaton is the man at OSU. He seems to catch almost everything, come down with it, and go get some real YAC. He's a pretty good sleeper pick, and if the Vikes go WR in 2 and 3 (which I'm almost thinking is a possibility), he probably will be there in the third. The league doesn't seem to respect OSU's offensive players, yet they weren't a bad team at all last year. (I listened to the game where they beat Nichols State 77-3. I also heard the one where they beat the Golden Bears 62-14...the only team they lost "badly" to was the Ducks.) I tuned into a lot of their games this past season on the radio, and it's pretty clear Wheaton is not just a talented player, but he was a good guy in the locker room and a guy that most of the team respected. When he was interviewed (which was pretty often, they also had him doing advertisements for the games because he was basically the face of the whole team), he seemed to have a really solid understanding of the game.

My only concern about him is that he might not be able to rely on having prototypical size or speed...there are tall, rangy guys, there are short, quick guys, and then there are a lot of these guys that are somewhere in-between. Wheaton is in that last category. But some of the greatest receivers in the game were in that category as well.

If the Vikings risk the wrath of their hardcore fan base and forgo receivers in the first 2 rounds, they certainly wouldn't do wrong by picking Wheaton.