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 WRs to watch 
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Post Re: WRs to watch
CaptainKirov wrote:
mrc44 wrote:
I was really hoping he would not receive notice late like this, not that teams make any decisions basd on media hype, but media hype is definitely based on decisions or actions of teams.

I ctually feel kind of good about Hopkins, because in a way he reminds me of Harrison smith. Smith was not talked about all that much and he was what I would consider a "safe" pick. You knew he could play but no one was expecting his ceiling to be much higher, or for him to become an elite playmaker. Hopkins is the same way, being considered a "safe" pick with a ceiling that is believed to be maxed out (which I completely disagree). Hopkins had not really received any hype until a week or so ago. He is still believed by Mayock to be available when we pick in the second (#52).

I will be bummed if we grab one of the other receivers over Hopkins, unless he is gone. I don't think there is a single player worth moving up for in this draft, so I don't think it is a good idea to move up even for Hopkins or Austin. There are honestly players in the 4th round that could fight for a starting position on this roster. No need to give up one of those picks


He's drawing comparrison to Reggie Wayne, who was also taken where his value is. Not the biggest or fastest but he makes up for it with soft hands and great route running ability and he plays bigger than his measurements.


I've been saying that for a while, we'd all be happy with Reggie Wayne at #23 / #25 even though he isn't built like megatron. Wayne was taken #30 I believe.


Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:32 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
Mothman wrote:
Anyway, there IS a learning curve at the position and expectations for any rookie should be tempered. I think this article serves as a cautionary take about drafting a player like Patterson and expecting to get a lot out of him as a receiver in his first season or two. I suspect he'd make some big plays but would struggle and disappear at times simply because of the steep learning curve he'd face. All the more reason to use him asa returner if he's drafted. I think he could have an immediate impact in that capacity.



Good point. Patterson has a big natural talent upside but he's going to be raw as a WR and will need time to develop. But you're right about him being able to be an impact returner right away. And yes, I can see him making some big plays here and there as a WR too, but I'd be shocked if the Vikings drafted him to be an every down starting wideout.

You know, Jim, regardless who the Vikings draft at WR, I really don't think they're necessarily looking for a #1 kind of WR. I believe that's what signing Greg Jennings was for. I still think the Vikings want someone to stretch the field and give Ponder another formidable target. What the WR corps really needs is more depth and weaponry, in my view. It's not like some guy should have to carry it all on his back the same way AD does as a RB. OTOH, a rookie MLB might have to be an immediate starter and full time contributor.


Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:07 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
Another late round WR to keep an eye on is Kenny Stills out of Oklahoma. Bleacherreport's Matt Miller had this to say about him as his top sleeper WR

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Stills has everything you look for in a solid possession receiver, and if you're a team running a West Coast offense, he's the ideal fit as a No. 2 or No. 3 option there. It's easy to get caught up in numbers, and while Still did produce in college, his last two seasons were spent with a quarterback that greatly struggled under pressure. That didn't allow him to fully break out in a stats game.

Stills has talent, though. Don't be one of the old-timers who look at his funny hair and tattoos and write him off. He's not a character risk and brings immediate impact value to the NFL.

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Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:45 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
Interesting read on the top tier WRs:
http://www.dailynorseman.com/2013/4/23/ ... Tier-1-2-3


Surprisingly, he doesn't include Austin or Patterson in his top 5, which goes like this:
Quote:
1. DeAndre Hopkins
2. Keenan Allen
3. Robert Woods
4. Da'Rick Rogers
5. Markus Wheaton
6. Aaron Dobson


I know Moth has been an Allen supporter throughout, despite a lot of us having our reservations. The writeup on Allen here does make me want him a bit more. I hope we trade back from 25, because there will be a ton of WR talent taken in the 35 to 50 range of this draft.


Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:03 am
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Post Re: WRs to watch
Texas Vike wrote:
Interesting read on the top tier WRs:
http://www.dailynorseman.com/2013/4/23/ ... Tier-1-2-3


Surprisingly, he doesn't include Austin or Patterson in his top 5, which goes like this:
Quote:
1. DeAndre Hopkins
2. Keenan Allen
3. Robert Woods
4. Da'Rick Rogers
5. Markus Wheaton
6. Aaron Dobson


I know Moth has been an Allen supporter throughout, despite a lot of us having our reservations. The writeup on Allen here does make me want him a bit more. I hope we trade back from 25, because there will be a ton of WR talent taken in the 35 to 50 range of this draft.



Thanks for the link. The writer was focused on fit for the Vikings, not just talent and he and I share the same choice of top two receivers for the Vikes: Hopkins and Allen. They may not possess the athletic upside or breakaway speed of players like Patterson and Austin but I think they'll fit the Vikings needs nicely and I believe they have room to grow and improve. One of the reasons most often given for the Vikings to draft a WR early is that this is potentially a make-or-break year for Ponder and they need to give him enough weapons to truly see if he's the right QB for them. While I think a team has to draft a player primarily for what that player can do for them in the long term, immediate needs are a concern as well and in Hopkins and Allen, I see two receivers who I think could fit with Ponder's strengths and weaknesses and conceivably be productive right out of the gate. Route-running skills tend to be a little undervalued at this time of year because size and speed are such attractive attributes in receivers but I think Allen and Hopkins both have demonstrable skills that should translate well to the NFL and at certain times, skills trump raw talent (at least to me). YMMV.


Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:22 am
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Post Re: WRs to watch
losperros wrote:
Good point. Patterson has a big natural talent upside but he's going to be raw as a WR and will need time to develop. But you're right about him being able to be an impact returner right away. And yes, I can see him making some big plays here and there as a WR too, but I'd be shocked if the Vikings drafted him to be an every down starting wideout.


I would too. If they draft him, I have to believe they'll try to make use of his skills as a returner and runner, not just as a receiver.

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You know, Jim, regardless who the Vikings draft at WR, I really don't think they're necessarily looking for a #1 kind of WR. I believe that's what signing Greg Jennings was for.


I agree. If they get a #1 receiver, I'm sure they'll be thrilled but my guess is they're looking for production more than anything else. As you said, what the WR corps really needs is more depth and weaponry.


Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:33 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
Mothman wrote:
Texas Vike wrote:
Interesting read on the top tier WRs:
http://www.dailynorseman.com/2013/4/23/ ... Tier-1-2-3


Surprisingly, he doesn't include Austin or Patterson in his top 5, which goes like this:
Quote:
1. DeAndre Hopkins
2. Keenan Allen
3. Robert Woods
4. Da'Rick Rogers
5. Markus Wheaton
6. Aaron Dobson


I know Moth has been an Allen supporter throughout, despite a lot of us having our reservations. The writeup on Allen here does make me want him a bit more. I hope we trade back from 25, because there will be a ton of WR talent taken in the 35 to 50 range of this draft.



Thanks for the link. The writer was focused on fit for the Vikings, not just talent and he and I share the same choice of top two receivers for the Vikes: Hopkins and Allen.


LOL, I was gonna say, I'm a pretty big patterson hater but to not even have him in the top 6 is pretty insane.


Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:21 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
mondry wrote:
LOL, I was gonna say, I'm a pretty big patterson hater but to not even have him in the top 6 is pretty insane.


Yes, it's purely about fit. here's what he had to say about Patterson:

Quote:
Don't mistake this as a judgment that Patterson is overrated. He is simply not ready to contribute right away, and that is critical to this big board's goals. Patterson is an athlete who evaluators speak of in terms of potential instead of established talent.

His athletic capability hasn't translated into an ability to constantly create separation, and his route-running ranks among the worst in the class. He doesn't sink his hips appropriately at the break, will signal routes and doesn't "tell a story" to defensive backs about where he's going—a critical skill to sell deception. This is important because he can flag downfield and will need to rely on more technical skills than you might expect when trying to go deep. This is why only 4% of his targets were deep despite a quarterback willing to sling it. I cannot overstate this point. He could be a deep threat, but does not have the combination of technique and athleticism to be relied on in this respect.

The rough route-running and imprecision will translate to seeing defenses a step ahead of him and in a position to break on the ball better. He doesn't enforce himself against press coverage either, allowing it to determine how he reacts. He also doesn't continue to put forth effort in a lot of his play, willing to jog through his routes if the play isn't called for him.

You can see this when he blocks, taking a lot of these running plays off, but occasionally mauling his defensive back. His technique is sloppy, and doesn't place his hands correctly, punch out, figure out who to block or play with effective feet on blocks.

Despite a relatively decent ability to adjust to the ball in the air, Patterson also doesn't work to make space for the ball. Some of this is easily coachable, and some of it isn't. He doesn't work back to the quarterback on broken plays or high-point the ball. Neither does he bring his hands up at the last moment. He still makes difficult catches and makes sure to use his hands, but he also doesn't make it a lot easier for the quarterback. He also needs to work on creating separation. Despite power and elusiveness, he's inconsistent at the release and needs to use his hands better.

All of this negativity is only to emphasize that while Patterson is the singular elite athletic talent in the class—athletic potential on par with Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss—he's not ready to contribute right away. Despite an athleticism score of 5.5, there's not many wide receivers in the NFL right now who are better with open-field running—potentially no one. Patterson can turn on a dime and accelerate quickly while also finding cutback lanes or necessary holes.

Not only is he an incredibly elusive runner, he's a hard one to take down once defenders get their hands on him. He knows how to take on contact, drive through tackles and keep tacklers away with a powerful stiff arm or body movement. He only had slightly above average YAC, but he should be a leader in this category with the right coaching.

If the Vikings were to take two receivers, grabbing Patterson would make some sense, but if they feel it is more important to give Ponder tools in order to fully evaluate him, they should pass. Patterson won't make an impact for a couple of years. He should make an impact in the return game right away, though.

For a generic board, Patterson would be near the top.


Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:39 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
Can the Vikings afford to draft another 6 ft or under WR at the top of their draft? He'd be joining Greg Jennings and Darius Wright in that department, leaving only Jerome Simpson, at 6'2", as the only over 6 ft receiver in their top four.


Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:40 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
Eli wrote:
Can the Vikings afford to draft another 6 ft or under WR at the top of their draft? He'd be joining Greg Jennings and Darius Wright in that department, leaving only Jerome Simpson, at 6'2", as the only over 6 ft receiver in their top four.


6'0" or shorter: Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Steve Smith, Roddy White, Victor Cruz, Mike Wallace, the list goes on. They could always get Dobson or someone taller in later rounds. Keenan Allen is 6'2. I guess I'm less concerned about height than I am overall performance. Austin would be the only one I'd have reservations with.

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Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:07 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
The point is, do you want your top three WRs to _all_ be 6 ft or under? Ponder has a difficult enough time as it is. Do you want to continue to handicap him by giving him (or the next QB, for that matter) nothing but small targets? Do you want your best redzone targets to be Jerome Simpson and Kyle Rudolph? Not bad, but it's slim pickings.


Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:13 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
Eli wrote:
The point is, do you want your top three WRs to _all_ be 6 ft or under? Ponder has a difficult enough time as it is. Do you want to continue to handicap him by giving him (or the next QB, for that matter) nothing but small targets? Do you want your best redzone targets to be Jerome Simpson and Kyle Rudolph? Not bad, but it's slim pickings.


I honestly don't care as long as they can consistently create separation and win one-on-one battles (not every throw is going to be a deep jump-ball where size is a large advantage), have decent hands, can make plays/score, etc. I don't think it's a handicap to give him a 6'0 receiver. YMMV

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Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:21 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
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Don't mistake this as a judgment that Patterson is overrated. He is simply not ready to contribute right away, and that is critical to this big board's goals. Patterson is an athlete who evaluators speak of in terms of potential instead of established talent.


Because, as we all know, the draft is about finding *immediate* contributors who will, in turn, step on the field and propel their teams to newfound heights solely by their presence on the field.

Some of these draft discussions remind me of that math question where someone is asked whether they want $100 straight-up, or to start with a penny and double it every day for 30 days. We all know the answer to that question (and if you don't, do the math).

The draft, especially at the top, is about finding talent and depth. It's not generally about finding a guy who can step into a spot and be better than anyone the team has at that spot right out of the gate. In fact, teams that are in the situation where they constantly rely on the draft to fill critical, immediate needs, have probably done a pretty crappy overall job of drafting, especially in the middle rounds.

I've read the discussions about Patterson, and all I can say is that any team that passes on this guy is going to wish they had not. As Craig (losperros) pointed out, the guy was perhaps the best offensive player for the Vols despite his single year with them being his only year playing at that level in that conference. While he may be raw, I think he's also clearly demonstrated he can learn and he can have success against talented opponents. His physical abilities are off the charts, his instincts impressive, and while he might not be an instant impact WR, he will certainly make people forget about Harvin when it comes to returning kicks while he learns the WR position.

This is about as close to a no-brainer as Spielman will ever see short of taking Kalil last year should Patterson fall to #23.


Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:23 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
dead_poet wrote:
Eli wrote:
The point is, do you want your top three WRs to _all_ be 6 ft or under? Ponder has a difficult enough time as it is. Do you want to continue to handicap him by giving him (or the next QB, for that matter) nothing but small targets? Do you want your best redzone targets to be Jerome Simpson and Kyle Rudolph? Not bad, but it's slim pickings.


I honestly don't care as long as they can consistently create separation and win one-on-one battles (not every throw is going to be a deep jump-ball where size is a large advantage), have decent hands, can make plays/score, etc. I don't think it's a handicap to give him a 6'0 receiver. YMMV


I don't either and I wouldn't necessarily call a 6' receiver a small target. That's taller than the average NFL CB.

Hopkins, Allen, Rogers and Dobson are all taller than 6' anyway. Of the 6 receivers on that list from the Daily norseman, only two (Woods and Wheaton) were 6' or shorter.


Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:48 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
VikingLord wrote:
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Don't mistake this as a judgment that Patterson is overrated. He is simply not ready to contribute right away, and that is critical to this big board's goals. Patterson is an athlete who evaluators speak of in terms of potential instead of established talent.


Because, as we all know, the draft is about finding *immediate* contributors who will, in turn, step on the field and propel their teams to newfound heights solely by their presence on the field.

Some of these draft discussions remind me of that math question where someone is asked whether they want $100 straight-up, or to start with a penny and double it every day for 30 days. We all know the answer to that question (and if you don't, do the math).

The draft, especially at the top, is about finding talent and depth. It's not generally about finding a guy who can step into a spot and be better than anyone the team has at that spot right out of the gate. In fact, teams that are in the situation where they constantly rely on the draft to fill critical, immediate needs, have probably done a pretty crappy overall job of drafting, especially in the middle rounds.

I've read the discussions about Patterson, and all I can say is that any team that passes on this guy is going to wish they had not. As Craig (losperros) pointed out, the guy was perhaps the best offensive player for the Vols despite his single year with them being his only year playing at that level in that conference. While he may be raw, I think he's also clearly demonstrated he can learn and he can have success against talented opponents. His physical abilities are off the charts, his instincts impressive, and while he might not be an instant impact WR, he will certainly make people forget about Harvin when it comes to returning kicks while he learns the WR position.

This is about as close to a no-brainer as Spielman will ever see short of taking Kalil last year should Patterson fall to #23.



It's not clear to me where you've pulled that quote from, but if it is from the Norseman article I linked upthread it kind of needs some context.

The writer is extremely prolific on the topic (excessively so, perhaps). He is working on the premise that one of Spielman's central motives is to find a WR that can contribute NOW because Ponder, Spielman's pick for franchise QB, is in a make or break year. The writer is making some assumptions: mostly that Spielman isn't primarily motivated by a long-range vision (which may or may not include Christian Ponder as our QB). I don't know that I agree with that assumption. I also agree with you that Patterson is a very intriguing prospect due to his truly special physical talents.


Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:55 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
VikingLord wrote:
Because, as we all know, the draft is about finding *immediate* contributors who will, in turn, step on the field and propel their teams to newfound heights solely by their presence on the field.

Some of these draft discussions remind me of that math question where someone is asked whether they want $100 straight-up, or to start with a penny and double it every day for 30 days. We all know the answer to that question (and if you don't, do the math).

The draft, especially at the top, is about finding talent and depth. It's not generally about finding a guy who can step into a spot and be better than anyone the team has at that spot right out of the gate. In fact, teams that are in the situation where they constantly rely on the draft to fill critical, immediate needs, have probably done a pretty crappy overall job of drafting, especially in the middle rounds.


The cap and free agency make it more essential than it used to be for 1st round draft picks to make significant contributions early in their careers. The draft isn't exclusively about finding immediate contributors but teams that are so deep and well-established across the board that they have the luxury of simply selecting a first round player they like and ignoring immediate needs are rare and nobody stays in that position long.

Quote:
I've read the discussions about Patterson, and all I can say is that any team that passes on this guy is going to wish they had not. As Craig (losperros) pointed out, the guy was perhaps the best offensive player for the Vols despite his single year with them being his only year playing at that level in that conference. While he may be raw, I think he's also clearly demonstrated he can learn and he can have success against talented opponents. His physical abilities are off the charts, his instincts impressive, and while he might not be an instant impact WR, he will certainly make people forget about Harvin when it comes to returning kicks while he learns the WR position.


Maybe... but how long will it take him to learn the position? Devin Hester has fantastic physical abilities and great instincts with the ball in his hands too. Like Patterson, he's a terrific returner (perhaps the best ever) but the Bears finally gave up on trying to turn him into more than an adequate WR after years of effort because his skills just never developed sufficiently. That may not happen with Patterson but just as immediate need shouldn't completely trump raw talent, the latter shouldn't automatically trump immediate need. As I've said before, swinging for the fences is fine but a batter who tries to hit a home run every time is probably going to have a high strikeout percentage. A smart team will weigh all of the variables, not just draft the most explosive player or the guy who looks best running a 40 yard dash. In the NFL, more than at any other level of football, skill counts.

Quote:
This is about as close to a no-brainer as Spielman will ever see short of taking Kalil last year should Patterson fall to #23.


It's really not. He has route-running issues, catching issues, issues using his hands against coverage... Patterson is a player who could come in, have an immediate impact and be a superstar or he could struggle to live up to his athletic potential for years and be a serious disappointment. That's not a no-brainer. Kalil was a no-brainer because he had the skills and talent to excel and excel immediately. Consequently, he was a top 5 pick. If Patterson was the same kind of no-brainer that's where he'd be projected to go: the top 5. He's not and that's because there's considerable risk involved with drafting such a raw talent. He's a boom or bust player. Kalil wasn't...

Just to be clear, I'm not opposed to drafting him. He can be electrifying on the field and that kind of talent is always useful. I just think there's more risk involved than you're implying. The rewards could be high though...


Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:07 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
It's looking like drafting Keenan Allen might have been a good move after all. He may end up being the ROTY. I'm still amazed that he lasted as long as he did in the 2013 draft but these things are always hard to predict.


Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:10 am
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Post Re: WRs to watch
Mothman wrote:
It's looking like drafting Keenan Allen might have been a good move after all. He may end up being the ROTY. I'm still amazed that he lasted as long as he did in the 2013 draft but these things are always hard to predict.


Yup.

http://www.vikingsmessageboard.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=24831&p=454698&hilit=keenan+allen#p454698

http://www.vikingsmessageboard.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25296&p=456096&hilit=keenan+allen#p456096

Patterson shows a lot of promise though so it's not that bad, I just hope he can work on his hands and tightening up his routes.


Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:35 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Chargers_standout_says_agent_was_told_Vikings_would_take_him_in_first_round121713

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Keenan Allen has had an outstanding season with the San Diego Chargers, leading all rookies in catches, reception yards and touchdown receptions.

But Allen told the San Diego Union-Tribune that he didn't expect to be with the Chargers this season. Instead, Allen said this week that his agent told him the Minnesota Vikings "guaranteed" they would select the wide receiver in the first round.


Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:00 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
Demi wrote:
http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Chargers_standout_says_agent_was_told_Vikings_would_take_him_in_first_round121713

Quote:
Keenan Allen has had an outstanding season with the San Diego Chargers, leading all rookies in catches, reception yards and touchdown receptions.

But Allen told the San Diego Union-Tribune that he didn't expect to be with the Chargers this season. Instead, Allen said this week that his agent told him the Minnesota Vikings "guaranteed" they would select the wide receiver in the first round.



LOL! That figures...


Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:01 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
Demi wrote:
http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Chargers_standout_says_agent_was_told_Vikings_would_take_him_in_first_round121713

Quote:
Keenan Allen has had an outstanding season with the San Diego Chargers, leading all rookies in catches, reception yards and touchdown receptions.

But Allen told the San Diego Union-Tribune that he didn't expect to be with the Chargers this season. Instead, Allen said this week that his agent told him the Minnesota Vikings "guaranteed" they would select the wide receiver in the first round.


He sure is coming along, but let's be honest, had he been drafted by us...these "leading all rookies..." talks wouldn't be taking place. He has a quarterback over there in San Diego. Big difference! :D I'm happy for him, but I'm glad we have Patterson.

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Post Re: WRs to watch
IIRC, I think a lot of us on the board wanted Hopkins/Allen/Woods. I think the majority opinion was that Cordarrelle and Tavon would be long gone before we picked. Looking back on it now, there is no way Tavon Austin gets picked that high. That would subsequently make the first WR off the board either Allen or Patterson.

I think the Vikings telling Allen he would be 1st round pick is BS. Apparently, Minnesota also 'told' Robert Woods that they were going to draft him in the first round too. Then, following draft day, there was that whole draft interview with Codarrelle where George Stewart guaranteed to Cordarrelle that Minnesota was going to draft him in the first. Honestly, hahaha, it sounds like the real truth was probably that Minnesota said we are drafting WR in the first round, and told all these players they might be drafted in the first.

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Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:51 pm
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Post Re: WRs to watch
Demi wrote:
http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Chargers_standout_says_agent_was_told_Vikings_would_take_him_in_first_round121713

Quote:
Keenan Allen has had an outstanding season with the San Diego Chargers, leading all rookies in catches, reception yards and touchdown receptions.

But Allen told the San Diego Union-Tribune that he didn't expect to be with the Chargers this season. Instead, Allen said this week that his agent told him the Minnesota Vikings "guaranteed" they would select the wide receiver in the first round.


That's pretty interesting. If that's the case, then I think Floyd falling down the board really messed up the Vikings plans. They probably had Patterson pegged to go a lot higher like most mocks, hence the enthusiasm to run back to the war room and draft him.


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