The Zimmer Principle

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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by Raz » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:50 pm

I don’t know much about the cap but I would be inclined to pay his salary and move on from there.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by CharVike » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:12 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:12 am
CharVike wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:12 pm

When you say special about any player that really has no meaning. Mahomes has become the bench mark for QBs. He lead his team to back to back Super Bowls. He's better than Rodgers by a mile based on that. But Mahomes lead his team to zero TDs in the Super Bowl. There was nothing special about that. He let an old man beat him. There's nothing special about that either. He had a 52 rating. That's laughable. He has down moments also and he's special. Every team scratches were it itches. The Bucs needed a QB the itch and the scratch was Brady. Maybe the best FA signing in the history of the NFL. He took a 7-9 squad to a Super Bowl victory beating the most special QB easily. That's how you scratch. There's no reason why that won't happen again. I don't think the Bucs showed a long term sense of itself they happen to hit it out of the park with a guy that I thought what a stupid signing. 43 years old. Good luck with that one. It worked perfect. That Pats had an itch no QB and the scratch was Newton. They are still scratching with no long term sense of itself. I know that Cousins is labeled a loser for some reason. But the guy was a low round pick for a QB and beat out a top 5 franchise QB. That's a big win in my book. That takes hard work. Or good luck some will call it I'm sure. We face the same problem that we have faced for a very long time. We need to be out a future HOF MVP QB. I don't see that as an easy task. I would rather be in the NFC East were the winner Dak will take that one. No competition helps.
Friend, there are a LOT of hardworking men in the NFL. A lot. Compared to the average high school football player, they're all special. Compared to the vast majority of college players, they're special.

But there are only 1,696 players in the NFL, and maybe 48 quarterbacks. So in this case, "special" means you stand out against your peers, who are the best of the best. To be special in the NFL, you've got to accomplish something more than earning a starting position. Spergon Wynn started 3 games in the NFL as a quarterback. Spergon Wynn was not special. Patrick Mahomes was MVP in his first year as a starter and won a Super Bowl in his second. That's special. I've given you an extreme comparison, obviously, but it's to make a point. Special is more than starting. Stump Hunter laid out a more complete argument, but I hope you get the picture.

Many make the case for Kirk Cousins' being special because of his stats. Here's an interesting comp. If you compare Cousins' first 93 games in the league to the first 93 games of Matt Ryan and Drew Brees, Cousins' stats are significantly better. But any comparison to those two is silly. Ryan was league MVP and made a Super Bowl, which he should have won. Brees made 13 Pro Bowls, was a Super Bowl MVP, and will be a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer. Meanwhile Kirk Cousins has one playoff win.

When I say Kirk Cousins isn't special, I'm talking about highest-paid-player-in-the-league kind of special. Unless something changes, that's exactly what he'll be in 2022. Do you honestly believe his play merits being the highest-paid player in the NFL?
I didn't express my view very well. Brady is beyond everybody. Then we have that group that will lead their team to the playoffs every year. We all know them Brees,Wilson,Rodgers,Big Ben ect.... They are special. Then we have the next group. Cousins, Grap, Stafford ect. I'll call them good QBs. They need much more help around them.
Then we have the young guns like Mahomes and Allen. Mahomes is in another world and looks to be the next Brady. All by himself from the others. Allen has done some great things and looks to be in that second class with Rodgers.
I have posted this before. Brain must have out raced something on this one. Memory or common sense I guess.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:44 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:58 pm

First off, if you're going to use the eye test when comparing Cousins to Bridgewater, then I can use the eye test to compare Cousins to Rodgers, or any of the other quarterbacks who are ahead of him on the QBR list. And buddy, he just doesn't compare in any way to Aaron Rodgers ... especially the eye test.
....I'm not saying Cousins is nearly as good as Aaron Rodgers. But of course any time I put up a stat regarding Cousins and how that specific stat aligns with top QBs in the NFL, this is the result. A picture is painted that I am pushing that Cousins is on Aaron Rodgers level. I'm not.

However, when Aaron Rodgers is 0-42 when trailing by more than 1 point in the 4th quarter in his career vs winning teams, yes that should 1000% be questioned. I feel like this is exactly how the media would react if this stat was brought up to them too....they'd deflect because he's the golden boy.

Think about it, the amount of times that Cousins record vs. winning teams and his record in primetime is brought up during a season by fans, media, analysts, etc is astronomical. It is literally NEVER brought up with Rodgers. NEVER! Hell, Matt Stafford's pathetic 9-54 career record vs. winning teams isnt even brought up because he's another media favorite. Cousins is the whipping boy among the NFL community. He's the dork Dad that doesnt let anything bother him, everyone thinks he's a little odd, etc. He's an easy target because there will be zero backlash.

You know what's sad..... I have buddies that watch about 5 football games a year. Yet they would still say to me, "yeah I saw the Vikings lost, you guys gotta get rid of Cousins". When they literally couldnt even name 3 players in that game. Why? Because that's how much Cousins name gets thrown around. That he's a choker, cant win the big game, blah blah. Yet I 1000% GUARANTEE you that 98% of football fans have ZERO idea that Aaron Rodgers is 0-42 against winning teams when down by 1 in the 4th. They also have zero clue that Rodgers is 7-24 against winning teams since 2012. That's literally a near identical statistic as Cousins' yet somehow it's never talked about with Rodgers.

At this rate, Rodgers is no bigger "winner" than Cousins is when it comes down to the game being on the line vs winning teams.


You are quick to congratulate Vikings' management for getting free agents. But the Salary Cap Shell Game can't continue indefinitely. You just wait. The new TV deal doesn't kick in until 2023 and stadiums won't be full this fall, so word is the cap won't go up very much next year. As a result, Cousins' hit, about 24% of the total cap, will cripple this team. And it'll be a direct result of what the Vikings did LAST YEAR, when they extended him just to pick up $7 million in cap space.

This is what the Vikings do. They overpay players, then manipulate contracts and the cap in succeeding years. It's maxing out one credit card and paying it off with another. Eventually it'll catch up to them.
I mean no offense Kapp, but I'd much rather put my trust in Rob Bryzinski who is arguably one of the best, if not the best, cap managers in the NFL over a fan on a message board. Everyone keeps saying year after year, you just wait, he's going to kill our team and it's yet to happen. No less this year was arguably the most active we've ever been in free agency. And yeah, guys had to be cut but were you planning on holding onto guys like Rudy and Stephen? I sure wasnt, regardless of our cap number. As for Reiff, I've been asking for his release for two years now. Every team makes cuts every year. That's not the question. The question is, will Cousins cap hit cripple this team. Everyone says it will year after year and they've been wrong year after year.

Oddly enough, I remember guys LAST year saying that this offseason this team is going to crumble and we wont be able to afford anyone worth a damn and blah, blah. Yet here we are, the most active they've been in free agency. Sure OL is still a problem even though the draft is still ahead but this defense is already miles better than it was last year. And that's just based off of free agents and not who we end up landing in the draft. Sure it may be early, but I can see a top 10 defense, maybe even better by seasons end. If Cousins contract was crippling this team, we wouldnt be able to do what we have done. You have someone like the Packers who only have about 600k in cap space and literally havent signed a soul except a few in house guys. We've brought in a ton of talent and still have cap to spare. And our real "key loss" was Riley Reiff? Okay....
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:38 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:44 pm

However, when Aaron Rodgers is 0-42 when trailing by more than 1 point in the 4th quarter in his career vs winning teams, yes that should 1000% be questioned. I feel like this is exactly how the media would react if this stat was brought up to them too....they'd deflect because he's the golden boy.
This stat is not true. Just a quick check sees he beat the 9-7 Cowboys in 2017 after being down 3. I haven't looked at his other 14 wins, but my guess is there are more if just the second game I checked showed the stat wrong.

He is 14-58 in that spot, which sounds terrible, but every loss by more than point falls into this category.

Cousins is 6-44 in that spot. 13% win rate versus 24%.

That being said, Rodgers is incredibly overrated when it comes to 4th quarter comebacks and is by no means the clutchest of QBs in the 4th. Fortunately for the Packers he rarely needs to be because he gets his team in a spot where they don't need to play from behind more often than not.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:32 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:44 pm
However, when Aaron Rodgers is 0-42 when trailing by more than 1 point in the 4th quarter in his career vs winning teams, yes that should 1000% be questioned.
With all due respect, this stat should be questioned. So that's what I did.

I found an article with 21 separate examples of where Rodgers did exactly what this stat says he didn't do, but the Packers either lost in overtime without ever getting the football, or the other team "technically" didn't have a winning record.

Here are a few (quoted directly from the article):

2014 NFC Championship: After their famous collapse, the Packers find themselves trailing 22-19 with 1:25 left. Rodgers rallies and is able to put together a game-tying drive that sends the game to OT. He never sees the ball again.

2015 Divisional: Packers trail Arizona by 7. It’s 4th & 20 with 55 seconds left and the Packers need to go 96 yards to tie the game. Rodgers delivers 2 of the best throws ever to send the game to OT, then doesn’t see the ball again.

2016 Divisional: Tied game against Dallas, 3rd & 20 with 12 seconds left. Rodgers delivers another one of the greatest throws we’ve ever seen to Jared Cook to set up the game-winning field goal. The game was tied (Packers weren’t trailing by more than 1 point), so it doesn’t count towards the stat.

2017 Week 5: Cowboys score to go up 31-28 with 1:13 left. Rodgers puts together a game winning drive and throws a TD to Adams with 11 seconds left for the win. Cowboys had a 2-2 record at the time (not above .500), so it doesn’t count towards the stat, even though they finished the year above .500.

2018 Week 1: Packers trail the Bears 20-0 in the 3rd quarter and 20-3 in the 4th quarter. Rodgers comes back from injury at halftime and puts together the crazy comeback to win. However, this was week 1, so the Bears were 0-0 and couldn’t have a winning record yet (even though they finish the season 12-4), so it doesn’t count towards the stat.

2019 Week 6: Packers trail the Lions (who are 2-1-1 at the time) by 9 with 10 minutes left in the 4th. Rodgers executes the comeback and the Packers win on a game-winning field goal. This one should count towards the stat.

Here's the article.

All of these count toward the so-called choke-stat-losses Rodgers has suffered. Honest to goodness, it represents no more than 90 seconds worth of research on my part, and I could have cited any of at least a dozen more articles debunking the same thing.

Meanwhile, I'm fairly sure there aren't 21 instances of Kirk Cousins leading his team to a come-from-behind victory against ANYBODY, let alone against winning teams. To my recollection, he's done it once in 50 games since he's been in Minnesota, last year against the awful Panthers.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by Rhodes Closed » Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:14 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:32 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:44 pm
However, when Aaron Rodgers is 0-42 when trailing by more than 1 point in the 4th quarter in his career vs winning teams, yes that should 1000% be questioned.
With all due respect, this stat should be questioned. So that's what I did.

I found an article with 21 separate examples of where Rodgers did exactly what this stat says he didn't do, but the Packers either lost in overtime without ever getting the football, or the other team "technically" didn't have a winning record.

Here are a few (quoted directly from the article):

2014 NFC Championship: After their famous collapse, the Packers find themselves trailing 22-19 with 1:25 left. Rodgers rallies and is able to put together a game-tying drive that sends the game to OT. He never sees the ball again.

2015 Divisional: Packers trail Arizona by 7. It’s 4th & 20 with 55 seconds left and the Packers need to go 96 yards to tie the game. Rodgers delivers 2 of the best throws ever to send the game to OT, then doesn’t see the ball again.

2016 Divisional: Tied game against Dallas, 3rd & 20 with 12 seconds left. Rodgers delivers another one of the greatest throws we’ve ever seen to Jared Cook to set up the game-winning field goal. The game was tied (Packers weren’t trailing by more than 1 point), so it doesn’t count towards the stat.

2017 Week 5: Cowboys score to go up 31-28 with 1:13 left. Rodgers puts together a game winning drive and throws a TD to Adams with 11 seconds left for the win. Cowboys had a 2-2 record at the time (not above .500), so it doesn’t count towards the stat, even though they finished the year above .500.

2018 Week 1: Packers trail the Bears 20-0 in the 3rd quarter and 20-3 in the 4th quarter. Rodgers comes back from injury at halftime and puts together the crazy comeback to win. However, this was week 1, so the Bears were 0-0 and couldn’t have a winning record yet (even though they finish the season 12-4), so it doesn’t count towards the stat.

2019 Week 6: Packers trail the Lions (who are 2-1-1 at the time) by 9 with 10 minutes left in the 4th. Rodgers executes the comeback and the Packers win on a game-winning field goal. This one should count towards the stat.

Here's the article.

All of these count toward the so-called choke-stat-losses Rodgers has suffered. Honest to goodness, it represents no more than 90 seconds worth of research on my part, and I could have cited any of at least a dozen more articles debunking the same thing.

Meanwhile, I'm fairly sure there aren't 21 instances of Kirk Cousins leading his team to a come-from-behind victory against ANYBODY, let alone against winning teams. To my recollection, he's done it once in 50 games since he's been in Minnesota, last year against the awful Panthers.
2018, Green Bay Packers, if our kicker makes a single kick, we win.

2019, Denver Colorado. He threw the comeback game of his life.

2020, Panthers, played great in the face of adversity.

He is further credited with an ADDITIONAL 7 4th Quarter Comebacks with the Redskins.

Come on man, this #### is easily verifiable.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:42 am

Rhodes Closed wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:14 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:32 pm

With all due respect, this stat should be questioned. So that's what I did.

I found an article with 21 separate examples of where Rodgers did exactly what this stat says he didn't do, but the Packers either lost in overtime without ever getting the football, or the other team "technically" didn't have a winning record.

Here are a few (quoted directly from the article):

2014 NFC Championship: After their famous collapse, the Packers find themselves trailing 22-19 with 1:25 left. Rodgers rallies and is able to put together a game-tying drive that sends the game to OT. He never sees the ball again.

2015 Divisional: Packers trail Arizona by 7. It’s 4th & 20 with 55 seconds left and the Packers need to go 96 yards to tie the game. Rodgers delivers 2 of the best throws ever to send the game to OT, then doesn’t see the ball again.

2016 Divisional: Tied game against Dallas, 3rd & 20 with 12 seconds left. Rodgers delivers another one of the greatest throws we’ve ever seen to Jared Cook to set up the game-winning field goal. The game was tied (Packers weren’t trailing by more than 1 point), so it doesn’t count towards the stat.

2017 Week 5: Cowboys score to go up 31-28 with 1:13 left. Rodgers puts together a game winning drive and throws a TD to Adams with 11 seconds left for the win. Cowboys had a 2-2 record at the time (not above .500), so it doesn’t count towards the stat, even though they finished the year above .500.

2018 Week 1: Packers trail the Bears 20-0 in the 3rd quarter and 20-3 in the 4th quarter. Rodgers comes back from injury at halftime and puts together the crazy comeback to win. However, this was week 1, so the Bears were 0-0 and couldn’t have a winning record yet (even though they finish the season 12-4), so it doesn’t count towards the stat.

2019 Week 6: Packers trail the Lions (who are 2-1-1 at the time) by 9 with 10 minutes left in the 4th. Rodgers executes the comeback and the Packers win on a game-winning field goal. This one should count towards the stat.

Here's the article.

All of these count toward the so-called choke-stat-losses Rodgers has suffered. Honest to goodness, it represents no more than 90 seconds worth of research on my part, and I could have cited any of at least a dozen more articles debunking the same thing.

Meanwhile, I'm fairly sure there aren't 21 instances of Kirk Cousins leading his team to a come-from-behind victory against ANYBODY, let alone against winning teams. To my recollection, he's done it once in 50 games since he's been in Minnesota, last year against the awful Panthers.
2018, Green Bay Packers, if our kicker makes a single kick, we win.

2019, Denver Colorado. He threw the comeback game of his life.

2020, Panthers, played great in the face of adversity.

He is further credited with an ADDITIONAL 7 4th Quarter Comebacks with the Redskins.

Come on man, this #### is easily verifiable.
You’re halfway to 21. Please read what I said.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:24 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:42 am
Rhodes Closed wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:14 am


2018, Green Bay Packers, if our kicker makes a single kick, we win.

2019, Denver Colorado. He threw the comeback game of his life.

2020, Panthers, played great in the face of adversity.

He is further credited with an ADDITIONAL 7 4th Quarter Comebacks with the Redskins.

Come on man, this #### is easily verifiable.
You’re halfway to 21. Please read what I said.
https://purplepainforums.com/thread/411 ... ing-drives

Since Cousins has joined the Vikings he has 5 4QC or GWDs. Rodgers had 9 on 3 fewer opportunities to comeback. A 19% success rate versus 38%.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:53 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:32 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:44 pm
However, when Aaron Rodgers is 0-42 when trailing by more than 1 point in the 4th quarter in his career vs winning teams, yes that should 1000% be questioned.
With all due respect, this stat should be questioned. So that's what I did.

I found an article with 21 separate examples of where Rodgers did exactly what this stat says he didn't do, but the Packers either lost in overtime without ever getting the football, or the other team "technically" didn't have a winning record.

Here are a few (quoted directly from the article):

2014 NFC Championship: After their famous collapse, the Packers find themselves trailing 22-19 with 1:25 left. Rodgers rallies and is able to put together a game-tying drive that sends the game to OT. He never sees the ball again.

2015 Divisional: Packers trail Arizona by 7. It’s 4th & 20 with 55 seconds left and the Packers need to go 96 yards to tie the game. Rodgers delivers 2 of the best throws ever to send the game to OT, then doesn’t see the ball again.

2016 Divisional: Tied game against Dallas, 3rd & 20 with 12 seconds left. Rodgers delivers another one of the greatest throws we’ve ever seen to Jared Cook to set up the game-winning field goal. The game was tied (Packers weren’t trailing by more than 1 point), so it doesn’t count towards the stat.

2017 Week 5: Cowboys score to go up 31-28 with 1:13 left. Rodgers puts together a game winning drive and throws a TD to Adams with 11 seconds left for the win. Cowboys had a 2-2 record at the time (not above .500), so it doesn’t count towards the stat, even though they finished the year above .500.

2018 Week 1: Packers trail the Bears 20-0 in the 3rd quarter and 20-3 in the 4th quarter. Rodgers comes back from injury at halftime and puts together the crazy comeback to win. However, this was week 1, so the Bears were 0-0 and couldn’t have a winning record yet (even though they finish the season 12-4), so it doesn’t count towards the stat.

2019 Week 6: Packers trail the Lions (who are 2-1-1 at the time) by 9 with 10 minutes left in the 4th. Rodgers executes the comeback and the Packers win on a game-winning field goal. This one should count towards the stat.

Here's the article.

All of these count toward the so-called choke-stat-losses Rodgers has suffered. Honest to goodness, it represents no more than 90 seconds worth of research on my part, and I could have cited any of at least a dozen more articles debunking the same thing.

Meanwhile, I'm fairly sure there aren't 21 instances of Kirk Cousins leading his team to a come-from-behind victory against ANYBODY, let alone against winning teams. To my recollection, he's done it once in 50 games since he's been in Minnesota, last year against the awful Panthers.
Well to start, I'm not sure if this stat was counting playoffs or not. I've seen this stat multiple times although I saw another one very similar a while back that read....
Rodgers is 0-38 when trailing heading into the 4th quarter
Whether you want to find a game or two that proves this stat wrong, go for it. But at the end of the day, Rodgers and Cousins CAN be compared in this regard. If you want to knock Kirk for it, knock the golden boy too. I'm not comparing the two as QBs, I'm comparing the two in terms of their ability in the 4th quarter.

This guy has been in the league 16 years now and has been to and/or won ONE SB in that time. No less that was 10 years ago. And everyone continues to praise him. All these great "records" season after season and what does he have to show for it? His last few playoff exits, he has folded like a lawn chair.

Again, for the 1,000th time, I'm not saying Cousins is as good as Aaron Rodgers. But Rodgers is not a comeback hero like he's often claimed to be. He got mopped up BAD by Tampa twice this year. Once during the regular season (when Tampa wasnt even playing great) and then in the playoffs. Where he "only lost by 5" but turned it on during garbage time (sound familiar) to make the game look a lot closer than it was.

Then look at the year prior vs. San Fran. Gets flat out mopped up in the regular season (threw for 104 damn yards) and then once again in the playoffs. Where he once again turned it on during garbage time when he was down 34-7.

So yes, Rodgers does indeed put his team in those situations. Those are 4 total games against the SB champ/runner up and he couldnt even make it a game. Not one of them. Cousins played both of those teams each of those years. He didnt play great either. But hell, he very well could have played better than Rodgers did.

So I guess, way to go Aaron Rodgers for usually beating the teams you should beat to get your 13-3 record. But shame on you for folding like a lawn chair against the better teams when the season is on the line.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:52 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:24 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:42 am

You’re halfway to 21. Please read what I said.
https://purplepainforums.com/thread/411 ... ing-drives

Since Cousins has joined the Vikings he has 5 4QC or GWDs. Rodgers had 9 on 3 fewer opportunities to comeback. A 19% success rate versus 38%.
But this can go both ways. If you want to say it's Cousins job to put them in position to win, isnt it equally the defenses responsibility to stop them late in the 4th....after Kirk gives us lead in the 4th quarter? Like it isnt taken into consideration if the defense busts a nut late in the game?

Like I can point out games where Kirk just flat out played bad. Indy and Atlanta both come to mind this past year.

However, a game like Seattle Cousins DID have them in position to win the game. It literally came down to Alexander Mattison missing a hole that was directly in front of his face and he only needed a yard. That sounds like a Mattison problem, not a Kirk problem.

Or like the one Kapp mentioned earlier, Tennessee, where we were down by 1 with a 1:36 left on our own 40. Yeah we're in great position to win the game. However, many seem to forget that when we were at the 40, Bradbury ended up sending a snap past Cousins when Cousins was trying to audible. Which then puts us at 3rd and long buried in our own end. Cousins was then forced to throw a hail mary which was nearly completed to Thielen. Either way, that sounds like a Bradbury problem, not a Kirk problem.

Or even the Dallas one. This one could be questioned but this was where they had a 3rd and 10 later in the 4th and Cousins had Thielen on an out. Well placed ball but out of reach and Thielen went nuts because he was held at the top of his route. No call. We have to punt. Just for the defense to crap the bed. If that hold didnt happen that drive was still going.

What about Kirk against the Saints? Where he ran toe to toe against a top 3 defense in the NFL and down by 4 heading into the 4th quarter where New Orleans controlled the entire clock and scored on every possession they had. We had two possessions scoring on one of the two. No turnovers, no mistakes, just pis# poor defense

Tampa Bay, many pin on Cousins late game performance. Yet we all forget about Bailey's THREE missed FGs. Cousins WAS putting them in SCORING position. If Bailey hit those, that game would've been 23-23 midway through the 4th quarter. Instead we trail by 2 scores. Hell, even if Bailey hit 2 of the 3, that's still a 23-20 game in the 4th. That sounds like a Bailey problem.

Again, not saying Kirk is innocent of poor play at any time, but let's be fair and look at both sides of the stone here. Kirk Cousins doesnt get credit for closing the game in the 4th quarter because Alexander Mattison missed a hole you could fit a truck through. Along with many other instances. Sure, there are many situations where Cousins himself does not do his job or where he single handedly loses us a game. However, there are also many times where the players around him fail him just as much. His defense, Bradbury, Mattison, Bailey, his interior blocking in general, etc. Especially this past year. Hell Jefferson catches everything in sight but drops that ball vs. Dallas when the game is on the line. I'm not going to sit here and say "yeah Kirk, that's your problem figure it out".

If we expect Kirk Cousins to do his job, then we should expect the rest of this team to do theirs. This game requires a team to win, not a single player. When Kirk doesnt do his job, I have no problem saying that. But when others on this team fail to do their job, I have no problem calling them to the carpet either. I dont just look at some spreadsheet a guy created in his parents basement.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:53 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:53 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:32 pm

With all due respect, this stat should be questioned. So that's what I did.

I found an article with 21 separate examples of where Rodgers did exactly what this stat says he didn't do, but the Packers either lost in overtime without ever getting the football, or the other team "technically" didn't have a winning record.

Here are a few (quoted directly from the article):

2014 NFC Championship: After their famous collapse, the Packers find themselves trailing 22-19 with 1:25 left. Rodgers rallies and is able to put together a game-tying drive that sends the game to OT. He never sees the ball again.

2015 Divisional: Packers trail Arizona by 7. It’s 4th & 20 with 55 seconds left and the Packers need to go 96 yards to tie the game. Rodgers delivers 2 of the best throws ever to send the game to OT, then doesn’t see the ball again.

2016 Divisional: Tied game against Dallas, 3rd & 20 with 12 seconds left. Rodgers delivers another one of the greatest throws we’ve ever seen to Jared Cook to set up the game-winning field goal. The game was tied (Packers weren’t trailing by more than 1 point), so it doesn’t count towards the stat.

2017 Week 5: Cowboys score to go up 31-28 with 1:13 left. Rodgers puts together a game winning drive and throws a TD to Adams with 11 seconds left for the win. Cowboys had a 2-2 record at the time (not above .500), so it doesn’t count towards the stat, even though they finished the year above .500.

2018 Week 1: Packers trail the Bears 20-0 in the 3rd quarter and 20-3 in the 4th quarter. Rodgers comes back from injury at halftime and puts together the crazy comeback to win. However, this was week 1, so the Bears were 0-0 and couldn’t have a winning record yet (even though they finish the season 12-4), so it doesn’t count towards the stat.

2019 Week 6: Packers trail the Lions (who are 2-1-1 at the time) by 9 with 10 minutes left in the 4th. Rodgers executes the comeback and the Packers win on a game-winning field goal. This one should count towards the stat.

Here's the article.

All of these count toward the so-called choke-stat-losses Rodgers has suffered. Honest to goodness, it represents no more than 90 seconds worth of research on my part, and I could have cited any of at least a dozen more articles debunking the same thing.

Meanwhile, I'm fairly sure there aren't 21 instances of Kirk Cousins leading his team to a come-from-behind victory against ANYBODY, let alone against winning teams. To my recollection, he's done it once in 50 games since he's been in Minnesota, last year against the awful Panthers.
Well to start, I'm not sure if this stat was counting playoffs or not. I've seen this stat multiple times although I saw another one very similar a while back that read....
Rodgers is 0-38 when trailing heading into the 4th quarter
Whether you want to find a game or two that proves this stat wrong, go for it. But at the end of the day, Rodgers and Cousins CAN be compared in this regard. If you want to knock Kirk for it, knock the golden boy too. I'm not comparing the two as QBs, I'm comparing the two in terms of their ability in the 4th quarter.

This guy has been in the league 16 years now and has been to and/or won ONE SB in that time. No less that was 10 years ago. And everyone continues to praise him. All these great "records" season after season and what does he have to show for it? His last few playoff exits, he has folded like a lawn chair.

Again, for the 1,000th time, I'm not saying Cousins is as good as Aaron Rodgers. But Rodgers is not a comeback hero like he's often claimed to be. He got mopped up BAD by Tampa twice this year. Once during the regular season (when Tampa wasnt even playing great) and then in the playoffs. Where he "only lost by 5" but turned it on during garbage time (sound familiar) to make the game look a lot closer than it was.

Then look at the year prior vs. San Fran. Gets flat out mopped up in the regular season (threw for 104 damn yards) and then once again in the playoffs. Where he once again turned it on during garbage time when he was down 34-7.

So yes, Rodgers does indeed put his team in those situations. Those are 4 total games against the SB champ/runner up and he couldnt even make it a game. Not one of them. Cousins played both of those teams each of those years. He didnt play great either. But hell, he very well could have played better than Rodgers did.

So I guess, way to go Aaron Rodgers for usually beating the teams you should beat to get your 13-3 record. But shame on you for folding like a lawn chair against the better teams when the season is on the line.
Look, I'm no fan of Aaron Rodgers. But I can respect what the man has done. When you say he's 0-and-whatever in some particular situation, that's honestly pretty disrespectful.

You're complaining about only one Super Bowl. How many have the Vikings won in 60 years of existence? I've been a fan for all but 8 of them. I'm still waiting.

My point with Cousins is that at this juncture, I don't believe he's the man to finally get us those bragging rights. I hope, I wish, I pray he proves me wrong. I want more than anything for Zimmer's antiquated plan of winning a Super Bowl with defense and the running game to actually work, so we can finally put this nonsense to bed. No fans in the NFL have suffered the way Vikings fans have. Sixty freaking years. We've won so many games, so many division titles, made so many conference championship game appearances (as many as the Packers). But no Super Bowls. Even the stupid Eagles have won ONE. Haven't even been to a Super Bowl in 44 years.

I couldn't care less whether Kirk Cousins is as good as Aaron Rodgers in clutch situations. I only care whether he can lead us to a championship. Because in my book, one Super Bowl victory is light years ahead of 60 years with none.

Enough about Kirk Cousins. We all have our stances on him, and nobody's going to change. Back to the topic at hand ... The Zimmer Principle.

I like Mike Zimmer. I really do. He's brought stability and accountability to the Vikings. Toughness. Grit. I think if he were my defensive coordinator and I were a defensive player, I'd run through fire and eat glass for him. I think he's a better coach than when he started. In fact, I think he's become a good head coach.

But is he a SUPER BOWL-CALIBER head coach? I, for one, don't think so.

Why? Because to win a Super Bowl in the way he wants to win it — with defense and the running game — in today's NFL, you've got to have a dominant defense. Not a good defense. Not a top-5 defense. A dominant one. Practically a generational defense. We're talking 2015 Broncos. 2013 Seahawks. 2000 Ravens.

In 2016 and 2017, we had the best defenses we've ever fielded under Zimmer. We ended up 8-8, and then getting wiped off the map by Nick Foles in the NFCC game the next year. Those were good defenses. Maybe even great defenses. But not 2015 Broncos dominant defenses. With a juggernaut offense, at least your floor is higher. You can get in shootouts and have a chance. Look at the Chiefs in the Divisional Round in 2019. Got behind 24-0 to the Texans, then kicked it in gear and destroyed them. With a good-but-not-dominant defense and a ball-control offense, you'd better not get behind, especially to a team with a high-powered offense.

So ... September will come around. I'll be here every Sunday, rooting for my team, standing up for all the players, just like I always do. But in the end, it really seems to me like The Zimmer Principle is on its last legs. I hope I'm wrong.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:40 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:52 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:24 am


https://purplepainforums.com/thread/411 ... ing-drives

Since Cousins has joined the Vikings he has 5 4QC or GWDs. Rodgers had 9 on 3 fewer opportunities to comeback. A 19% success rate versus 38%.
But this can go both ways. If you want to say it's Cousins job to put them in position to win, isnt it equally the defenses responsibility to stop them late in the 4th....after Kirk gives us lead in the 4th quarter? Like it isnt taken into consideration if the defense busts a nut late in the game?
That happens to every QB. Since 2018, Cousins has lost 4 games where he has lead in the 4th. The league average over that time was 4.06.

All of those losses were not just on the defense either. With the lead in the 4th Cousins was 3-6, 0 TDs, 0 Ints, 4.5 YPA and a 62.5 passer rating on top of taking a sack.

Every QB has games that they lose despite their best effort. Even a QB like Sam Darnold can point to games he should have won.

At some point after year 6 of needing to point to all of the reasons a QB doesn't win games instead of being able to point to all the success he has had at actually winning games, it is time to admit he isn't good enough.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by VikingLord » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:56 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:40 pm
At some point after year 6 of needing to point to all of the reasons a QB doesn't win games instead of being able to point to all the success he has had at actually winning games, it is time to admit he isn't good enough.
Spielman doesn't seem to agree with you.

When I read this discussion I keep thinking about that game last year against the Seahawks.

Cousins and the offense drive down inside the Seattle 10 and need inches on 4th down to seal the win. The Vikings run the ball and fail to get it, after which the Seahawks drive the length of the field, converting one improbable 4th-and-long and then scoring the winning TD on another 4th-and-distance to win.

With a better offensive line, the Vikings probably win that game. With a more imaginative or aggressive play call on the 4th-and-inches, or even a simple QB sneak by the much-maligned Kirk Cousins, the Vikings probably win that game. With a better defensive effort, the Vikings probably win that game.

It is almost impossible to measure the relative contribution of Cousins to the outcomes he is associated with in the situations you are laying at his feet. Did he throw pick sixes that were returned for the points difference in those late losses? Maybe he fumbled it? In what percentage of those losses over those 6 years can you clearly lay the responsibility for the outcome at his feet?
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:43 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:56 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:40 pm
At some point after year 6 of needing to point to all of the reasons a QB doesn't win games instead of being able to point to all the success he has had at actually winning games, it is time to admit he isn't good enough.
Spielman doesn't seem to agree with you.

When I read this discussion I keep thinking about that game last year against the Seahawks.

Cousins and the offense drive down inside the Seattle 10 and need inches on 4th down to seal the win. The Vikings run the ball and fail to get it, after which the Seahawks drive the length of the field, converting one improbable 4th-and-long and then scoring the winning TD on another 4th-and-distance to win.

With a better offensive line, the Vikings probably win that game. With a more imaginative or aggressive play call on the 4th-and-inches, or even a simple QB sneak by the much-maligned Kirk Cousins, the Vikings probably win that game. With a better defensive effort, the Vikings probably win that game.

It is almost impossible to measure the relative contribution of Cousins to the outcomes he is associated with in the situations you are laying at his feet. Did he throw pick sixes that were returned for the points difference in those late losses? Maybe he fumbled it? In what percentage of those losses over those 6 years can you clearly lay the responsibility for the outcome at his feet?
So again, instead of pointing to his successes, he is defended by someone making excuses for the failures.

Cousins didn't throw a single pass on that final drive in the Seahawks game btw. Not sure what kind of contribution he made there. Not fumbling the handoff?
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by Fat Stupid Loser » Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:29 am

:roll:
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