The Zimmer Principle

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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by chicagopurple » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:46 am

just another grey old Vike fan here....since the 70's

We all know a great QB when we see one.. Cousins aint it...he fails the sniff test.
Those of us who see the Grim Reaper in the rear view mirror KNOW he is not the QB that is going to finally get us to the promised land. Any GM who tries to claim otherwise is blowing smoke.
I have no patience for mediocrity anymore...I cant afford it.
Same is true for our current Coach. He is NOT a difference maker who takes medium talent and makes them special...he is no GURU
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:48 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:16 pm

Is Cousins providing twice the value that Dalton is going to provide the Bears? I am not saying Dalton is as good a QB as Cousins, far from it, but at the end of the day Dalton was 4-5 as the starter for the Cowboys, Cousins was 7-9 for the Vikings. Both had talented WRs, both had talented RBs, both had bad defenses and both were a game below .500.

Besides, poor decisions on contracts for QBs do not tell us what the market value is for a QB. Good decisions do. So if Rodgers is making 30 million a year on his contract, is Cousins worth close to that? Not based on his impact on winning games he isn't.
Again, your opinion or anyones for that matter doesnt dictate the QB market. And I'm referring to AAV. Rodgers is making $33.5 million a year on average. I would say Cousins warrants somewhere in the $27-$30 million range on average. Not $20 million, not even close. You want to base everything off record all the time. The QB market doesnt care about record unfortunately. Record doesnt always tell the whole story. Hell, the 2020 Vikings prove that no less. If our defense wasnt decimated by injuries I can tell you we wouldnt be sitting at 7-9. Not saying we'd be 14-2 but they would've at least been in the playoffs. The QB market is about what you, specifically, can do on the field and how good your physical abilities are. Teams then look to build around that QB in order to create team success. Unless you have a coach like Mike Zimmer that is more worried about his defense than his interior offensive line. But why do you think someone like Sam Bradford got so many chances? Because Sam Bradford, from a pure talent standpoint, was probably one of the most talented passers in the NFL. But Bradford was stuck on really, really bad Rams teams. I'm not saying this is how the QB market should be viewed. But that is the reality of it. Teams want arm talent and overall ability. I mean look at all veteran AAV right now. How many QBs on there could you honestly say are making right around what they should or what they deserve? As the salary cap continues to grow, the QB market continues to get richer.

Mahomes @ 45....should be the highest paid in the NFL (and here is who sets and dictates the current market)

And when comparing QBs to Mahomes AAV....

Dak @ 40.... overpaid
Watson @ 39.... honestly who knows right now, he'll be lucky to play again at this point
Wilson @ 35.... underpaid
Rodgers@ 33.5... underpaid
Goff @ 33.5.... grossly overpaid
Cousins @ 33.... overpaid
Wentz @ 32.... overpaid
Ryan @ 30.... slightly overpaid
Tannehill @ 29.5... overpaid
Jimmy G @ 27.5... overpaid
Stafford @ 27.... slightly overpaid
Carr @ 25..... might be right where he needs to be
Brady @ 25.... way underpaid
Teddy @ 21.... probably a little overpaid at this point
Big Ben @ 14..... way underpaid
Dalton @ 10.... underpaid
Fitz @ 10....who knows or cares

So in my opinion, I dont think many fall where they should but the QB market is a constant roller coaster. And just wait until these guys on rookie contracts start getting their deals. There really is no set pattern here. But you can see that the guys with the better arm talent and numbers are towards the top (for the most part). It sure as hell isnt based off record I can tell you that.


If the Carolina Panthers had given up only 15.8 points per game they would have been 15-1. The Jaquars would have been 10-6, the Cowboys would have been 13-3.

The Jets are the only team that wouldn't have had a good record and still would have lost 11 games.

That is a silly stat.
It's not a silly stat at all. All you did above was further prove my initial comment of how so many Vikings fans were blinded by Keenums success and our teams record that year. Our offense in 2017 was way more talented than Carolina's 2020 offense. Or Jacksonville's 2020 offense. More similar to Dallas' offense than anyone. Yeah I would say to an extent that we were indeed a good QB away from a SB THAT YEAR. I honestly think that if we have Cousins in that NFC Championship game, we at least run with Philly and make it a game. Keenum wasnt made to play catch up. When the game got away, it was gone. But you see so many fans that say "should've kept Keenum" (apparently you think that as well). Keenum was carried by a defense and further helped by what he had around him on offense. The Carolina's and Jacksonvilles show that it's awfully damn hard to have a poor year when you have a defense giving up 15.8 points a game. So yeah if you pair Kirk Cousins with the #1 defense in the nfl, yeah they are 100% SB contenders and chances are, at least at the time, his contract is justifiable. But I always said, Cousins got here a year too late. Because that defense hit it's peak in 2017 and did nothing but go backwards from there. That's the part that the Cousins haters dont see or refuse to look at. They want to say that Cousins isnt worth it, Cousins cant win a big game, and so on. Give Cousins a defense that is giving up 15.8 points a game and you'd see those haters turtle up when the Vikings go 14-2 and Cousins would go from being hated to being a fan favorite. Point is, teams arent the same year after year. Guys get older, coaches change, schedules change, injuries happen, etc. But with that defense just about anyone could've been successful on our team in 2017. These fans were just simply blinded by Keenum and his salary. We no longer have that defense.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by Maelstrom88 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:16 am

CharVike wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:04 am
Maelstrom88 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:06 pm


I was just talking the other day to my wife about people who would have been around 10 when the Vikings became a thing and just imagine watching for that long and not having seen your team win it all. Still enjoyable but man I want them to win for the longtime fans more than anything. I'm not sure the current leadership has what it takes unfortunately. I guess this next year will show us a lot in that respect. Anyways, great to have you on the board and I look forward to more posts from you!
When I was younger before 40 the Vikings winning or losing set the tone for the week. I'm not like that any more. If I was our GM I don't even know how I could get this current squad into the Super Bowl. I don't see us winning the division with Rodgers in it. He's the MVP and plays the most important position. The guys off the charts. He's not slowing down either. He's getting better with age. The guy before him on the team was off the charts. Does that mean winning the Super Bowl for the Pack every year. No. When you get in the playoffs anything can happen. Then when that bum Keenum lead us to the Champ game and we were facing another bum QB who wasn't even sure he wanted to play anymore I thought this goes against everything I ever thought about the game. Looking back is easy. That Saints team seemed to have figure our team out. They came storming back after halftime. Yes we won with the miracle but the ground work for disaster was laid out. The media wasn't even talking about our team. It was like we didn't exist. Then our bum QB threw a pick six and once you do that teams fall apart. We did it against the 49ers in the playoffs when Rutland had a pick six and sent us to the Champ game at Washington. Wilson threw a pick six last year and sent his team home. They can clean the entire house out right now. From Speilman right down the line. Scouts coaches ect..even Cousins just cut him. Sign another stiff cheap QB for about 10 million Newton? and sign a bunch of FA. But we will stiff face the same problem in our division. The best QB in the NFC IMO. Who will be playing better. Good luck getting people to buy tickets to watch that crap show. People won't shell out money for a product that the owner doesn't even care about. Bottom line do I see us getting to the Super Bowl this year? Nope. I don't see us beating out Rodgers for a start. So it will be wild card if we play great and on the road. Then we will need to face the GOAT at some point and he will kick our rears. Hows that for uplifting. Hang in there maybe this QB Love the Pack picked will blow and our chances will be better when he takes over in 5 or 6 years.
I would actually agree with most of that as it's a realistic take. I think they have a decent chance to beat the Packers as tgey have done it many times before and Zimmer has shown the ability to scheme against them. The Bucs however are basically a pro bowl team and have brought most of the key guys back already. Unless Brady somehow falls apart I see them being better with more time to get on the same page than they had last season. After those two leave it should be wide open but who knows?
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:13 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:48 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:16 pm

Is Cousins providing twice the value that Dalton is going to provide the Bears? I am not saying Dalton is as good a QB as Cousins, far from it, but at the end of the day Dalton was 4-5 as the starter for the Cowboys, Cousins was 7-9 for the Vikings. Both had talented WRs, both had talented RBs, both had bad defenses and both were a game below .500.

Besides, poor decisions on contracts for QBs do not tell us what the market value is for a QB. Good decisions do. So if Rodgers is making 30 million a year on his contract, is Cousins worth close to that? Not based on his impact on winning games he isn't.
Again, your opinion or anyones for that matter doesnt dictate the QB market. And I'm referring to AAV. Rodgers is making $33.5 million a year on average. I would say Cousins warrants somewhere in the $27-$30 million range on average.
Cousins is only worth 3.5 million less than one of the greatest QBs of all time?

Let's take a look at what 3.5 million in cap gets you this year, and you tell me if Rodgers adds more value than that 3.5 million dollar player.

D.J Jones
Dan Feeny
Anthony Walker Jr
Henry Anderson
Kevin Pierr-Louise
Mike Remmers
Johnathon Hankins

Is Cousins and a player like Remmers the same value as Aaron Rodgers? I don't think so.
Mahomes @ 45....should be the highest paid in the NFL (and here is who sets and dictates the current market)
He doesn't start making that 45 million number until 2023 when the cap will be significantly higher. By the end of his contract QBs will be making 60 million a year and his contract will look like a value. It isn't a valid comparison when looking at what QBs are making this year or even next year. The valid comparison is over the life of the contract and when we look at what Cousins made over the life of his contract, 150 fully guaranteed million over 5 years from 2018-2022, he is tied with Russel Wilson as the highest paid QB at 30 million per year.

That is right, while Cousins is a Viking he will be the highest paid QB in the entire NFL. So far that has amounted to 1 playoff win and failing to make the playoffs in a year where his defense was the 3rd best scoring defense in the NFL.

So tell me again how Cousins is worth 30 million a year?
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by Husker Vike » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:37 am

It really doesn't matter what any of us think Cousins is worth, the market dictates what he is worth. Unless you are fortunate enough to draft a franchise QB, you will overpay in the marketplace. The mistake we keep making now is not bringing in starting quality interior linemen .
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:13 am

Husker Vike wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:37 am
It really doesn't matter what any of us think Cousins is worth, the market dictates what he is worth. Unless you are fortunate enough to draft a franchise QB, you will overpay in the marketplace. The mistake we keep making now is not bringing in starting quality interior linemen .
The Vikings should only pay a player what they are worth and only if the benefit that player brings outweighs the negative impact of their cap hit. If the Jets think Cousins is worth 30 million a year, good for them, they are wrong, and would fail miserably with him at QB. Their poor decisions should not force us to make poor decisions as well.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by CharVike » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:17 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:13 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:48 am


Again, your opinion or anyones for that matter doesnt dictate the QB market. And I'm referring to AAV. Rodgers is making $33.5 million a year on average. I would say Cousins warrants somewhere in the $27-$30 million range on average.
Cousins is only worth 3.5 million less than one of the greatest QBs of all time?

Let's take a look at what 3.5 million in cap gets you this year, and you tell me if Rodgers adds more value than that 3.5 million dollar player.

D.J Jones
Dan Feeny
Anthony Walker Jr
Henry Anderson
Kevin Pierr-Louise
Mike Remmers
Johnathon Hankins

Is Cousins and a player like Remmers the same value as Aaron Rodgers? I don't think so.
Mahomes @ 45....should be the highest paid in the NFL (and here is who sets and dictates the current market)
He doesn't start making that 45 million number until 2023 when the cap will be significantly higher. By the end of his contract QBs will be making 60 million a year and his contract will look like a value. It isn't a valid comparison when looking at what QBs are making this year or even next year. The valid comparison is over the life of the contract and when we look at what Cousins made over the life of his contract, 150 fully guaranteed million over 5 years from 2018-2022, he is tied with Russel Wilson as the highest paid QB at 30 million per year.

That is right, while Cousins is a Viking he will be the highest paid QB in the entire NFL. So far that has amounted to 1 playoff win and failing to make the playoffs in a year where his defense was the 3rd best scoring defense in the NFL.

So tell me again how Cousins is worth 30 million a year?
Don't compare players or teams across division. Dak who is paid great will win his division easily. Every division game will be a week off. That's a tremendous break IMO. Cousins isn't beating Rodgers out. No QB in our division will. Russell Wilson will win his division. Who's going to beat him out? Jimmy G? He makes coin and the 49ers want him out. Matthew Stafford. He makes coin and his team dumped him. Neither of them are close to HOF QBs. But Wilson will prove again that once you hit the big stage the playoffs it changes. The big dogs are out at that point. Don't throw a pick six or say good nite. Even Brady didn't win his division because he faced another HOF QB. And he's the best ever. But when the lights were bright him and that team turned it on and were dominate. Rodgers couldn't even put up a fight. Didn't want it. Mahomes looked as bad as I have seen a QB in the Super Bowl. Couldn't even score a TD. 52 rating and he's not cheap. If we booted Cousins right now teams will be fighting for him. That has already been played. He'll be making 60-80 million a year at that point. We can bring Keenum back. Who wants to watch that BS.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:33 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:13 am


Cousins is only worth 3.5 million less than one of the greatest QBs of all time?

Let's take a look at what 3.5 million in cap gets you this year, and you tell me if Rodgers adds more value than that 3.5 million dollar player.

D.J Jones
Dan Feeny
Anthony Walker Jr
Henry Anderson
Kevin Pierr-Louise
Mike Remmers
Johnathon Hankins

Is Cousins and a player like Remmers the same value as Aaron Rodgers? I don't think so.
My post went a mile over your head clearly. You're reading what you want to read so you can twist what I'm saying into some ridiculous claim that I never said. I mentioned in the post that Rodgers is UNDERPAID. And I have Cousins max value at $30 million. You pegged it as me saying that's exactly what he's worth. I said $27-$30 million. Any negotiation you do in your life time, never do you offer your maximum right off the bat. $27 million AAV on the low end, $30 million AAV on the high end. NONE of this by any means is me saying Cousins is worth $30 million and only $3 mill less than Rodgers. I made sure to mentioned that Rodgers is underpaid when comparing to Mahomes contract
He doesn't start making that 45 million number until 2023 when the cap will be significantly higher. By the end of his contract QBs will be making 60 million a year and his contract will look like a value. It isn't a valid comparison when looking at what QBs are making this year or even next year. The valid comparison is over the life of the contract and when we look at what Cousins made over the life of his contract, 150 fully guaranteed million over 5 years from 2018-2022, he is tied with Russel Wilson as the highest paid QB at 30 million per year.
OMG...I dont care when Mahomes will be making $45 million nor do I care about the lifetime of a contract. I literally mentioned AAV about 5 times in that post. I'm using the average they make per year.
AAV stands for Average Annual Value and does not apply to a player's stats but the salary he is making. It is calculated by taking the total value of the contract and dividing it by its length or term
They've pushed Mahomes money down the line. Whatever money Mahomes was set to make this year, was going to be a certain percentage against the cap this. Well if they are pushing money down the line because the cap is suppose to go up.... okay? So is Mahomes cap hit. So regardless, he's counting for damn near close to the same percentage he is counting for now. Yes I know they converted his salary this year, not the point. But it's literally like you're saying 4/10 isnt the same thing as 40/100. No matter what way you look at it, it's still 40%. The number 4 is much lower than 40 but it's also paired with a much lower divisor. Same goes for the current situation. Lower number for Mahomes now, lower team cap number, bigger number for Mahomes later, bigger team cap number. Regardless, he's going to be taking up near the same percentage of the teams cap.
So far that has amounted to 1 playoff win and failing to make the playoffs in a year where his defense was the 3rd best scoring defense in the NFL.
uhhh, are you trying to prove something there? I find it funny how you always fail to mention that in 2018, Zim decided to hire a guy who flat out refused to run the ball when we had Dalvin Cook and Latavius Murray and got fired by week 13. Just to then get hired as an OC the following year just to lose his job again and has made it all the way back down to a measly Chicago Bears Quarterbacks coach. But yeah, definitely on Kirk Cousins though, I dont think that hiring Flip had much effect on how 2018 turned out at all, all Flip did was come up with the game plans and call the plays.........
So tell me again how Cousins is worth 30 million a year?
I know what I will tell you again.... That I gave a range for Cousins as well as gave my opinion on other QBs AAV and just about every ounce of that went flying over your head.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:40 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:33 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:13 am


Cousins is only worth 3.5 million less than one of the greatest QBs of all time?

Let's take a look at what 3.5 million in cap gets you this year, and you tell me if Rodgers adds more value than that 3.5 million dollar player.

D.J Jones
Dan Feeny
Anthony Walker Jr
Henry Anderson
Kevin Pierr-Louise
Mike Remmers
Johnathon Hankins

Is Cousins and a player like Remmers the same value as Aaron Rodgers? I don't think so.
My post went a mile over your head clearly. You're reading what you want to read so you can twist what I'm saying into some ridiculous claim that I never said. I mentioned in the post that Rodgers is UNDERPAID. And I have Cousins max value at $30 million. You pegged it as me saying that's exactly what he's worth. I said $27-$30 million. Any negotiation you do in your life time, never do you offer your maximum right off the bat. $27 million AAV on the low end, $30 million AAV on the high end. NONE of this by any means is me saying Cousins is worth $30 million and only $3 mill less than Rodgers. I made sure to mentioned that Rodgers is underpaid when comparing to Mahomes contract
I am going to take this very slow for you, because you really seem to be struggling with it. AAV in 2023-2031 is very different than AAV from 2018-2022. Since the majority of Mahomes' contract exists in that 2023-2031 timeframe you are comparing two very different things.

What you did was equivalent to me saying Cousins is way overpaid because his AAV 30 million while Peyton Manning was making 19.2 per year when he retired.

Different timeframes, different cap numbers, terrible comparisons.

During Cousins' time as a Viking, the only timeframe he is under this contract, he is making the most per year of any QB in the NFL and it was all fully guaranteed. He is the standard you should be comparing all those QBs too because he is the max earner during the relevant time.

Do you think he has come close to being the most valuable QB in the NFL during that time?
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:47 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:35 am




First off, let's not deal in hypotheticals. I can make that 15.8 ppg case for a LOT of quarterbacks. Let's stick to the facts.
AGAIN, I know you can make the case for a lot of QBs That's the point and I just told Stump the same thing. That stat was geared more towards Vikings fans being blinded by Case Keenums success here than it was a testament of how good Kirk Cousins is. But my other point to that is, Cousins getting here a year too late. If they gave Cousins that contract in 2017, with that defense, I can bet money there wouldnt be a soul complaining about Cousins. Well maybe Stump but that's expected. I sometimes wish Keenum would've stayed just so it would open fans eyes on just how pathetically bad he would've been under DeFelippo's pass heavy scheme that requires the QB to do it all.
So ... $20 million is silly. Fine. What's the right number? You've already said that his play doesn't warrant $45 million. How about the $31 million he'll make in 2021? It's highly subjective, I realize. But what's your number? Was he worth the $21 the Vikings paid him in 2020?
I've already stated my number above when basing everything off Mahomes contract given he's currently the bar. As for the $21 million he made in 2020, yeah that's a bargain IMO given the current market and how we played offensively. You know just as well as I do that the offense wasnt the problem last year. As for this year, I would say 31 is a little high in terms of other QBs AAV. And $45 is obviously ridiculous.
Before you answer, please note that Cousins' Total QBR was 18th in the NFL last year. He ranked behind Teddy Bridgewater ($14 million cap hit in 2020), Matthew Stafford ($21.3 million), Kyler Murray ($8 million), Baker Mayfield ($9 million), Ryan Fitzpatrick ($4 million), and a slew of other QBs who made less than Cousins. Aaron Rodgers, league MVP and No. 1 in Total QBR, made the same as Cousins. Meanwhile, Cousins ranked one spot ahead of Philip Rivers, and ended up less than 2 QBR points ahead of such stalwarts as Daniel Jones and Mitchell Trubisky.


Well first, you listed two QBs that are still on rookie contracts.... Murray and Mayfield will clearly be making more than $8-9 million in a year or two. And come on lets be honest here, Teddy.....Fitz...even Stafford. Are you really going to sit here on just the eye test alone and say "yup, those guys were better QBs than Cousins last year"?? We're allowed to use the stat of QBR, but nothing else now? QBR is now the end all be all? I mean I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. I mean I can rattle off plenty of meaningful statistics and comparisons as well.

....Like the fact that Kirk Cousins led the entire NFL in 2nd half TD passes when the score margin was within 3 points....when everyone says he's just a garbage time QB

.... or since 2012 Aaron Rodgers is 7-24 against winning teams, Cousins career record vs. winning teams is 5-24 and Matt Staffords career record is 9-54

....or in the 2019 season, Cousins ranked top 7 in completion %, YPA, TD:INT ratio, passer rating, PFF passer rating, deep ball passer rating and passer rating under pressure.

....or how about the last teams to own the 29th ranked defense in points allowed finished with the follow records:
-2020 MIN (7-9)
-2019 TB (7-9)
-2018 NYJ (4-12)
-2017 MIA (6-10)
-2016 SD (5-11)
-2015 CLE (3-13)
-2014 WAS (4-12)
-2013 OAK (4-12)
................and we're sitting here complaining about how he performed last year.

.... or one of my personal favorites, the guy you and Stump recently mentioned (and praised), Aaron Rodgers is a whopping 0-42 against winning teams when trailing by more than 1 point in the 4th quarter. Now THATs a QB you have justifiable proof that he is indeed a garbage time QB. Oh and he's also 1-8 when trailing at halftime in the playoffs. Call him the Comeback Kid!!! Where's the media at on that one? Oh wait, he's the golden boy of the NFL, lets just focus on Cousins stupid 1-9 MNF stat instead :lol:
Kirk Cousins once again had great stats. Maybe the best of his career. But when you compare his actual play to the other quarterbacks in the league, that $20 million doesn't seem quite as far-fetched.
eh, it still does. Especially when you realize Teddy broke his own personal TD pass record of 14 with a whopping 15 TDs this year along with 11 INTs. Compared to Cousins 35 TDs to 13 INTs. I dont care how many TDs of Cousins you think were "garbage time" or not worthy of recognition but that guy threw TWENTY more TDs than Teddy Bridgewater. The fact you're hanging a QBR stat out there to try and prove "beat" Cousins in a statistic really makes me question this.
I'll grant you that he probably is worth a little more than that. But the franchise-paralyzing $76 million he'll make over the next two years? Now that's silly.
I dont agree with it either, but everybody, every year, says Cousins contract cripples the team and we dont have cap space for this or cap space for that. Yet what has it really crippled? I can tell you his contract wasnt the reason guys like Rhodes tallied off, Waynes got overpaid, Joseph tallied off, Rudolph to age, etc. So is it because the Vikings couldnt afford Joe Thuney's asinine $16 million a year asking price? Like this has been a thing people say year after year and I dont see this team crippled yet and they are still dipping into FA no problem. If I told you in my mock offseason that we'd sign Tomlinson for $22 million and Peterson for $10 million, would you consider that unrealistic? I mean we're still landing solid free agents, we're still keeping the core of this team in tact and all along, everyone is saying Cousins is crippling the team? Like I 100% get that he does not deserve $45 mill next year. But in terms of what has happened so far, I dont think he's crippled this team at all. This staff are the ones about to cripple Kirk if they dont find him some interior lineman sooner than later.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by CharVike » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:31 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:47 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:35 am




First off, let's not deal in hypotheticals. I can make that 15.8 ppg case for a LOT of quarterbacks. Let's stick to the facts.
AGAIN, I know you can make the case for a lot of QBs That's the point and I just told Stump the same thing. That stat was geared more towards Vikings fans being blinded by Case Keenums success here than it was a testament of how good Kirk Cousins is. But my other point to that is, Cousins getting here a year too late. If they gave Cousins that contract in 2017, with that defense, I can bet money there wouldnt be a soul complaining about Cousins. Well maybe Stump but that's expected. I sometimes wish Keenum would've stayed just so it would open fans eyes on just how pathetically bad he would've been under DeFelippo's pass heavy scheme that requires the QB to do it all.
So ... $20 million is silly. Fine. What's the right number? You've already said that his play doesn't warrant $45 million. How about the $31 million he'll make in 2021? It's highly subjective, I realize. But what's your number? Was he worth the $21 the Vikings paid him in 2020?
I've already stated my number above when basing everything off Mahomes contract given he's currently the bar. As for the $21 million he made in 2020, yeah that's a bargain IMO given the current market and how we played offensively. You know just as well as I do that the offense wasnt the problem last year. As for this year, I would say 31 is a little high in terms of other QBs AAV. And $45 is obviously ridiculous.
Before you answer, please note that Cousins' Total QBR was 18th in the NFL last year. He ranked behind Teddy Bridgewater ($14 million cap hit in 2020), Matthew Stafford ($21.3 million), Kyler Murray ($8 million), Baker Mayfield ($9 million), Ryan Fitzpatrick ($4 million), and a slew of other QBs who made less than Cousins. Aaron Rodgers, league MVP and No. 1 in Total QBR, made the same as Cousins. Meanwhile, Cousins ranked one spot ahead of Philip Rivers, and ended up less than 2 QBR points ahead of such stalwarts as Daniel Jones and Mitchell Trubisky.


Well first, you listed two QBs that are still on rookie contracts.... Murray and Mayfield will clearly be making more than $8-9 million in a year or two. And come on lets be honest here, Teddy.....Fitz...even Stafford. Are you really going to sit here on just the eye test alone and say "yup, those guys were better QBs than Cousins last year"?? We're allowed to use the stat of QBR, but nothing else now? QBR is now the end all be all? I mean I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. I mean I can rattle off plenty of meaningful statistics and comparisons as well.

....Like the fact that Kirk Cousins led the entire NFL in 2nd half TD passes when the score margin was within 3 points....when everyone says he's just a garbage time QB

.... or since 2012 Aaron Rodgers is 7-24 against winning teams, Cousins career record vs. winning teams is 5-24 and Matt Staffords career record is 9-54

....or in the 2019 season, Cousins ranked top 7 in completion %, YPA, TD:INT ratio, passer rating, PFF passer rating, deep ball passer rating and passer rating under pressure.

....or how about the last teams to own the 29th ranked defense in points allowed finished with the follow records:
-2020 MIN (7-9)
-2019 TB (7-9)
-2018 NYJ (4-12)
-2017 MIA (6-10)
-2016 SD (5-11)
-2015 CLE (3-13)
-2014 WAS (4-12)
-2013 OAK (4-12)
................and we're sitting here complaining about how he performed last year.

.... or one of my personal favorites, the guy you and Stump recently mentioned (and praised), Aaron Rodgers is a whopping 0-42 against winning teams when trailing by more than 1 point in the 4th quarter. Now THATs a QB you have justifiable proof that he is indeed a garbage time QB. Oh and he's also 1-8 when trailing at halftime in the playoffs. Call him the Comeback Kid!!! Where's the media at on that one? Oh wait, he's the golden boy of the NFL, lets just focus on Cousins stupid 1-9 MNF stat instead :lol:
Kirk Cousins once again had great stats. Maybe the best of his career. But when you compare his actual play to the other quarterbacks in the league, that $20 million doesn't seem quite as far-fetched.
eh, it still does. Especially when you realize Teddy broke his own personal TD pass record of 14 with a whopping 15 TDs this year along with 11 INTs. Compared to Cousins 35 TDs to 13 INTs. I dont care how many TDs of Cousins you think were "garbage time" or not worthy of recognition but that guy threw TWENTY more TDs than Teddy Bridgewater. The fact you're hanging a QBR stat out there to try and prove "beat" Cousins in a statistic really makes me question this.
I'll grant you that he probably is worth a little more than that. But the franchise-paralyzing $76 million he'll make over the next two years? Now that's silly.
I dont agree with it either, but everybody, every year, says Cousins contract cripples the team and we dont have cap space for this or cap space for that. Yet what has it really crippled? I can tell you his contract wasnt the reason guys like Rhodes tallied off, Waynes got overpaid, Joseph tallied off, Rudolph to age, etc. So is it because the Vikings couldnt afford Joe Thuney's asinine $16 million a year asking price? Like this has been a thing people say year after year and I dont see this team crippled yet and they are still dipping into FA no problem. If I told you in my mock offseason that we'd sign Tomlinson for $22 million and Peterson for $10 million, would you consider that unrealistic? I mean we're still landing solid free agents, we're still keeping the core of this team in tact and all along, everyone is saying Cousins is crippling the team? Like I 100% get that he does not deserve $45 mill next year. But in terms of what has happened so far, I dont think he's crippled this team at all. This staff are the ones about to cripple Kirk if they dont find him some interior lineman sooner than later.
You put up some nice stuff there. I think Rodgers is the 2nd best in the NFC since Brady arrived but boy he is a big time loser. He is the regular season champ. This is the biggest -----Oh and he's also 1-8 when trailing at halftime in the playoffs---- No Rodger the dodger there that's for sure. Plus he doesn't elevate the team too much or they would win those games. But I will give him credit. He gets them to the playoffs. The Packer fans love him and they go to the games. He's a good TV draw. I wish he would quite. But the way it's been going for them Love will be a HOFer. Zimmer actually has handled him good. The media paints Cousins out to be a loser. It's almost like he banged a media guys wife and they are ganging up on him. There is no doubt we could do better than Cousins. But I've been watching since 1970 and the people knocking him haven't seen the stiffs we have had. It's a long list since Fran and before. Even he was a loser in the Show. Perhaps the biggest. By no means would I pass up a QB in the draft. This won't happen but if the Clemson kid falls to us that needs to be the pick. We could trade Cousins easily and get a crap load of picks. That's the part people are missing. I hope the Bama kid is there at 14 that needs to be the pick also. Worry about some G later. QBs are too valuable to pass up. That Thuney contract is a stupid move by the team that did it. Bill B has CAP space and he told the guy to go F yourself you're not worth that. Some on this board would have offered 20M. To each there own. The draft coming up for us will be boring as hell. QB will be out of the question as will WR and probably CB.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by CharVike » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:45 am

chicagopurple wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:46 am
just another grey old Vike fan here....since the 70's

We all know a great QB when we see one.. Cousins aint it...he fails the sniff test.
Those of us who see the Grim Reaper in the rear view mirror KNOW he is not the QB that is going to finally get us to the promised land. Any GM who tries to claim otherwise is blowing smoke.
I have no patience for mediocrity anymore...I cant afford it.
Same is true for our current Coach. He is NOT a difference maker who takes medium talent and makes them special...he is no GURU
There's only one guy who passes the sniff test and he plays for the Bucs. He will take any team to the promise land. There is only one of those. He choices were he wants to go. Money don't enter the equation. He wants a retirement spot. FL based on weather is probably better than foxboro or green bay or New Yoyk or any city up north. Hiwaii would be good but no team. So he's out for 3/4 of the league. Jimmy G and Goff and Foles took their teams to the promise land. Do they pass the sniff test? Rodgers hasn't been there forever. Does he pass the sniff test. Dak hasn't made it. Hows that for the sniff test. Your looking for something were there is only one. Us and many other teams have zero chance of getting him. Regardless of the money. Our current coach made the champ game with a total stiff of a QB. He's done some crappy stuff. But he gives Rodgers a harder time than most. That's a first step. Any other coach out there won't do that. Even Bill B since Brady left. But he's trying. We'll see how that goes.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:58 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:47 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:35 am




First off, let's not deal in hypotheticals. I can make that 15.8 ppg case for a LOT of quarterbacks. Let's stick to the facts.
AGAIN, I know you can make the case for a lot of QBs That's the point and I just told Stump the same thing. That stat was geared more towards Vikings fans being blinded by Case Keenums success here than it was a testament of how good Kirk Cousins is. But my other point to that is, Cousins getting here a year too late. If they gave Cousins that contract in 2017, with that defense, I can bet money there wouldnt be a soul complaining about Cousins. Well maybe Stump but that's expected. I sometimes wish Keenum would've stayed just so it would open fans eyes on just how pathetically bad he would've been under DeFelippo's pass heavy scheme that requires the QB to do it all.
So ... $20 million is silly. Fine. What's the right number? You've already said that his play doesn't warrant $45 million. How about the $31 million he'll make in 2021? It's highly subjective, I realize. But what's your number? Was he worth the $21 the Vikings paid him in 2020?
I've already stated my number above when basing everything off Mahomes contract given he's currently the bar. As for the $21 million he made in 2020, yeah that's a bargain IMO given the current market and how we played offensively. You know just as well as I do that the offense wasnt the problem last year. As for this year, I would say 31 is a little high in terms of other QBs AAV. And $45 is obviously ridiculous.
Before you answer, please note that Cousins' Total QBR was 18th in the NFL last year. He ranked behind Teddy Bridgewater ($14 million cap hit in 2020), Matthew Stafford ($21.3 million), Kyler Murray ($8 million), Baker Mayfield ($9 million), Ryan Fitzpatrick ($4 million), and a slew of other QBs who made less than Cousins. Aaron Rodgers, league MVP and No. 1 in Total QBR, made the same as Cousins. Meanwhile, Cousins ranked one spot ahead of Philip Rivers, and ended up less than 2 QBR points ahead of such stalwarts as Daniel Jones and Mitchell Trubisky.


Well first, you listed two QBs that are still on rookie contracts.... Murray and Mayfield will clearly be making more than $8-9 million in a year or two. And come on lets be honest here, Teddy.....Fitz...even Stafford. Are you really going to sit here on just the eye test alone and say "yup, those guys were better QBs than Cousins last year"?? We're allowed to use the stat of QBR, but nothing else now? QBR is now the end all be all? I mean I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. I mean I can rattle off plenty of meaningful statistics and comparisons as well.

....Like the fact that Kirk Cousins led the entire NFL in 2nd half TD passes when the score margin was within 3 points....when everyone says he's just a garbage time QB

.... or since 2012 Aaron Rodgers is 7-24 against winning teams, Cousins career record vs. winning teams is 5-24 and Matt Staffords career record is 9-54

....or in the 2019 season, Cousins ranked top 7 in completion %, YPA, TD:INT ratio, passer rating, PFF passer rating, deep ball passer rating and passer rating under pressure.

....or how about the last teams to own the 29th ranked defense in points allowed finished with the follow records:
-2020 MIN (7-9)
-2019 TB (7-9)
-2018 NYJ (4-12)
-2017 MIA (6-10)
-2016 SD (5-11)
-2015 CLE (3-13)
-2014 WAS (4-12)
-2013 OAK (4-12)
................and we're sitting here complaining about how he performed last year.

.... or one of my personal favorites, the guy you and Stump recently mentioned (and praised), Aaron Rodgers is a whopping 0-42 against winning teams when trailing by more than 1 point in the 4th quarter. Now THATs a QB you have justifiable proof that he is indeed a garbage time QB. Oh and he's also 1-8 when trailing at halftime in the playoffs. Call him the Comeback Kid!!! Where's the media at on that one? Oh wait, he's the golden boy of the NFL, lets just focus on Cousins stupid 1-9 MNF stat instead :lol:
Kirk Cousins once again had great stats. Maybe the best of his career. But when you compare his actual play to the other quarterbacks in the league, that $20 million doesn't seem quite as far-fetched.
eh, it still does. Especially when you realize Teddy broke his own personal TD pass record of 14 with a whopping 15 TDs this year along with 11 INTs. Compared to Cousins 35 TDs to 13 INTs. I dont care how many TDs of Cousins you think were "garbage time" or not worthy of recognition but that guy threw TWENTY more TDs than Teddy Bridgewater. The fact you're hanging a QBR stat out there to try and prove "beat" Cousins in a statistic really makes me question this.
I'll grant you that he probably is worth a little more than that. But the franchise-paralyzing $76 million he'll make over the next two years? Now that's silly.
I dont agree with it either, but everybody, every year, says Cousins contract cripples the team and we dont have cap space for this or cap space for that. Yet what has it really crippled? I can tell you his contract wasnt the reason guys like Rhodes tallied off, Waynes got overpaid, Joseph tallied off, Rudolph to age, etc. So is it because the Vikings couldnt afford Joe Thuney's asinine $16 million a year asking price? Like this has been a thing people say year after year and I dont see this team crippled yet and they are still dipping into FA no problem. If I told you in my mock offseason that we'd sign Tomlinson for $22 million and Peterson for $10 million, would you consider that unrealistic? I mean we're still landing solid free agents, we're still keeping the core of this team in tact and all along, everyone is saying Cousins is crippling the team? Like I 100% get that he does not deserve $45 mill next year. But in terms of what has happened so far, I dont think he's crippled this team at all. This staff are the ones about to cripple Kirk if they dont find him some interior lineman sooner than later.
First off, if you're going to use the eye test when comparing Cousins to Bridgewater, then I can use the eye test to compare Cousins to Rodgers, or any of the other quarterbacks who are ahead of him on the QBR list. And buddy, he just doesn't compare in any way to Aaron Rodgers ... especially the eye test.

Now let's talk about those stats.

The Vikings started 1-5 last year, and a large part of that was due to the ungodly awful play of Kirk Cousins. Would they have been 6-0 if he had played up to replacement level? Heck no. The defense was bad, too. But if they'd won even one more game — 2-4 instead of 1-5 — they'd have made the playoffs. As for stats, let's dig a little deeper. The Atlanta game, for example. Cousins threw for 332 yards with a passer rating over 90. Not that bad, right? Nope. His THREE first-half interceptions led to 17 points for the winless Falcons and put us in a 20-0 hole. Then he threw for 230 yards and 3 TDs in the second half, when the Vikings were hopelessly behind. This is what he does, over and over. He piles up numbers and loses. Or he plays well and flames out at the end. Against Dallas, he had a great game ... until the final drive. Then he couldn't complete a pass. He had 1:37, and all they needed was a field goal, yet he couldn't get a first down. Titans game, same thing. He goes 4-for-8 for 28 yards in the 4th quarter. Bears game, couldn't get the job done. Win ANY of those games, and we're in the playoffs instead of the idiot Bears.

I know, I know. All of those things were somebody else's fault. JJ dropped the pass against Dallas. The entire team played like The Three Stooges on the last drive against Tennessee. The last throw against the Bears was a Hail Mary (even though the Vikings had first and goal two different times during that game and came away with field goals). There's always something or someone else to blame. But the fact remains ... his teams always seem to find a way to lose.

This is why statistics like Total QBR are far more important than completion percentage, YPA, TD:INT ratio, passer rating, PFF passer rating, deep ball passer rating and passer rating under pressure. WHEN you put up your numbers matters. The GAME SITUATION matters. HOW you put up your numbers matters. Total QBR isn't perfect, but it takes those situations into account.

As for the other overpaid Vikings, what does that have to do with Kirk Cousins? Linval and Rhodes and those other guys aren't here anymore. The only way we've been able to pick up free agents this offseason is by cutting other players, not because Cousins' cap hit is some sort of bargain. In fact, I'd say they've picked up free agents IN SPITE of Cousins' cap hit. And we're still in deep doo doo when it comes to the O-line. We lost a solid left tackle in Riley Reiff because they didn't have the cap space to fix the defense and still pay him. That's due in no small part to Cousins' $31 million cap hit.

Again, value is a subjective thing. For my money, he's not worth the $31 million he's set to make in 2021, and he'll be laughably overpaid in 2022 at $45 million. That's based both on his play and the cap situation the Vikings are in.

You are quick to congratulate Vikings' management for getting free agents. But the Salary Cap Shell Game can't continue indefinitely. You just wait. The new TV deal doesn't kick in until 2023 and stadiums won't be full this fall, so word is the cap won't go up very much next year. As a result, Cousins' hit, about 24% of the total cap, will cripple this team. And it'll be a direct result of what the Vikings did LAST YEAR, when they extended him just to pick up $7 million in cap space.

This is what the Vikings do. They overpay players, then manipulate contracts and the cap in succeeding years. It's maxing out one credit card and paying it off with another. Eventually it'll catch up to them.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by VikingTom » Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:09 pm

Wow, the QB debate blew up. As noted we have many diverse opinions. So here comes a bit of mine.

In terms of what you pay for a QB, the market most certainly sets the price. When the Vikings signed Cousins he was the top FA QB out there and the Vikings were bidding against two other teams. Cousins ended up with an above market deal. He was paid as an essentially elite QB when in reality he is a good QB. Vikings had determined QB was the upgrade they needed for the SB.

Keenum had a great season in 2017 while enjoying more than a bit of luck. I had watched him play lights out for several games when with the St Louis Rams, then also watched him come back to Earth. Those saying fans were blinded by that one year Keenum in Wonderland journey are right. Vikings were more than a QB short of the SB.

As someone who has followed the team from day one the saga that ended up with Cousins as the QB seems to be the ongoing destiny of the Vikings coming up a bit short. Bridgewater may or may not have been that guy, the horrendous injury meant we never got to find out. The ensuing cascade of events, 1st round pick for Bradford, Bradford hurt, Keenum steps in followed by the decision to sign Cousins. (Which was much better than signing Keenum for a bloated contract) exemplifies my Vikings frustrations.

What to do now is the hard part. No 20-20 hindsight, no lamenting bad breaks. Cousins is the QB for at least two years. Likely longer given the cap number he will carry in 22. Virtually guarantees the Vikings must redo his contract and kick some of that coin down the road. Unless.....this year pans out poorly and Vikings decide to draft a QB in 22. That scenario quite probably means Zimmer is fired, and possibly Spielman is also gone with a rebuild in earnest happening. Personally I want the Vikings to succeed now. Which means riding Cousins at QB and a likely contract redo after this season.
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Re: The Zimmer Principle

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:45 pm

VikingTom wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:09 pm
What to do now is the hard part. No 20-20 hindsight, no lamenting bad breaks. Cousins is the QB for at least two years. Likely longer given the cap number he will carry in 22. Virtually guarantees the Vikings must redo his contract and kick some of that coin down the road. Unless.....this year pans out poorly and Vikings decide to draft a QB in 22. That scenario quite probably means Zimmer is fired, and possibly Spielman is also gone with a rebuild in earnest happening. Personally I want the Vikings to succeed now. Which means riding Cousins at QB and a likely contract redo after this season.
The Vikings absolutely do not need to add more years to Cousins deal to get his cap number down in 2022. If Rick is still the GM they absolutely will do that and claim it was necessary to save cap, just like they did in 2020. Teams can easily add void years to deals to push cap hits down the road without extending the player and the Vikings could do that this year or next to move some of Cousins' massive cap hit to 2023 or even 2024.

I don't think Rick is unhappy with .500 football as long as making the playoffs every other year keeps him employed though, so as long as that continues to happen, we will continue to see Cousins as the highest paid, fully guaranteed QB in the NFL.
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