Next OC for the Vikings?

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Next OC for the Vikings? who do you want, not who do you think.

Klint Kubiak
10
77%
Anthony Lynn
0
No votes
Hue Jackson
0
No votes
Rick Dennison
0
No votes
Other
3
23%
 
Total votes: 13

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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by VikingLord » Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:24 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:18 pm
By the last six weeks of the season, they were easily the best team in that division. In fact, it's not a stretch to say they were the best team in the NFL, since they did, in fact, hoist the trophy.
I just don't think the Bucs are that much more talented than everyone else they played.

Even if one decides they are that much more talented, that just buttresses my main point that the key to Superbowl competitiveness is premised on having a complete team around the QB.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:18 pm
You didn't answer my question. Name a player who's gonna say, "Wow. I have a chance to play with Kirk Cousins? Sign me up!" You can't.
I don't know of a player, but (and I think you were the one that posted it) I can think of a coach who supposedly wants him. Wasn't there some buzz about Shanahan and the 49ers wanting Cousins? Enough of a buzz that Zimmer was asked about it and made a public statement to the effect that "Kirk is our guy"?

Cousins is a top 10 QB in the league. He gets paid like it and he plays like it. Is he the missing link for someone's Superbowl aspirations? Yeah, he could be. Now whether that translates into a crush of players swooning for the chance to play with him, I don't know, but I don't think he's persona-non-grata around the league either.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:18 pm
Substitute the name Deshaun Watson, and I guarantee you'll get a different answer, if for no other reason than his reputation as a leader and his pedigree from Clemson.
So you're saying that there is a crush of free agents and vets who want to go to Houston to play with Watson? If Watson stays with the Texans, and a vet FA has the choice between the Vikings and Houston, you honestly think Watson's presence in Houston versus Cousins' presence in Minnesota would sway that vet FA towards Houston?

I'm not trying to be facetious here. I'm just pointing out that there is a lot more to it than "that team has Tom Brady on it" or "that team has Aaron Rodgers on it" or whatever that determines where individual players want to play.

Most of them go where the money is best. Maybe a few vets near the end of their careers would take less to play for a likely winner, but I just don't see strong evidence for the claim that individual players who can decide where they want to play are going to go there solely for the chance to play with a given QB. If that is a factor, it's not a major one for most players in that position.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:18 pm
When you've got veterans — especially those classified as "ring chasers," who have played well but haven't been on a contender — wanting to sign with you, even willing to take less money than they could get elsewhere, that puts you at a tremendous competitive advantage.
So let's step that back.

You're Leonard Fournette. You're a free agent who can sign anywhere. You have the choice to sign with the Bucs, the Packers, the Chiefs, or the Saints. All of them want you. All of them have franchise QBs. All of the consistently make the playoffs and all of them could make or win the Superbowl.

Which one do you join and why?
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:30 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:24 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:18 pm
By the last six weeks of the season, they were easily the best team in that division. In fact, it's not a stretch to say they were the best team in the NFL, since they did, in fact, hoist the trophy.
I just don't think the Bucs are that much more talented than everyone else they played.

Even if one decides they are that much more talented, that just buttresses my main point that the key to Superbowl competitiveness is premised on having a complete team around the QB.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:18 pm
You didn't answer my question. Name a player who's gonna say, "Wow. I have a chance to play with Kirk Cousins? Sign me up!" You can't.
I don't know of a player, but (and I think you were the one that posted it) I can think of a coach who supposedly wants him. Wasn't there some buzz about Shanahan and the 49ers wanting Cousins? Enough of a buzz that Zimmer was asked about it and made a public statement to the effect that "Kirk is our guy"?

Cousins is a top 10 QB in the league. He gets paid like it and he plays like it. Is he the missing link for someone's Superbowl aspirations? Yeah, he could be. Now whether that translates into a crush of players swooning for the chance to play with him, I don't know, but I don't think he's persona-non-grata around the league either.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:18 pm
Substitute the name Deshaun Watson, and I guarantee you'll get a different answer, if for no other reason than his reputation as a leader and his pedigree from Clemson.
So you're saying that there is a crush of free agents and vets who want to go to Houston to play with Watson? If Watson stays with the Texans, and a vet FA has the choice between the Vikings and Houston, you honestly think Watson's presence in Houston versus Cousins' presence in Minnesota would sway that vet FA towards Houston?

I'm not trying to be facetious here. I'm just pointing out that there is a lot more to it than "that team has Tom Brady on it" or "that team has Aaron Rodgers on it" or whatever that determines where individual players want to play.

Most of them go where the money is best. Maybe a few vets near the end of their careers would take less to play for a likely winner, but I just don't see strong evidence for the claim that individual players who can decide where they want to play are going to go there solely for the chance to play with a given QB. If that is a factor, it's not a major one for most players in that position.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:18 pm
When you've got veterans — especially those classified as "ring chasers," who have played well but haven't been on a contender — wanting to sign with you, even willing to take less money than they could get elsewhere, that puts you at a tremendous competitive advantage.
So let's step that back.

You're Leonard Fournette. You're a free agent who can sign anywhere. You have the choice to sign with the Bucs, the Packers, the Chiefs, or the Saints. All of them want you. All of them have franchise QBs. All of the consistently make the playoffs and all of them could make or win the Superbowl.

Which one do you join and why?
OK, I know this looks like 20/20 hindsight ... the Bucs, and it isn’t close.

The Chiefs don’t have a lot of use for running backs.

The Saints already have two guys they like, and with Drew Brees unable to throw the ball more than 9 yards, they’re not winning The Bowl.

The Packers don’t run enough, either. Plus they play in the cold.

Tampa Bay has a running-back-friendly quarterback who’s won six Super Bowls, a running back In Ronald Jones he thinks he can beat out, and they play in sunny warm Florida.

Easy pick. But the biggest factor, if I’m chasing a ring, is Brady.

By the way, your comment that players go for the money ... many do. But certain veterans who have already gotten a second contract and made their money want to win. That’s the type of guy I’m talking about. Arians talked about this very thing.

Does that player chase after Watson in the circus atmosphere of Houston? Probably not. But Watson in a stable organization? I believe he would.

Certainly more than Kirk Cousins, no matter where he is.

And according to almost every advanced metric, Kirk Cousins is not a top-10 QB. Sorry, but he’s just not. Total QBR, PFF rankings, DVOA, you name it, Cousins is 15-20. Yet he’ll be paid top-6 money in 2021. More than Mahomes. More than Brady. And in 2022? The most in the NFL. Cousins played more like a top-5 QB down the stretch, but you have to count all the games. Just like he’s done every season in Minnesota, he once again had a stretch of horrific play that cost the Vikings in 2020. The season was lost in weeks 1 through 6, when Cousins threw 11 picks. It was nearly lost last year in the first month, when his own receivers wanted nothing to do with him. And his long stretches of uninspired play in 2018 cost us a playoff berth that year.

This is the guy who’s going to be the highest-paid player in the NFL in 2022.

Is he the Vikings’ biggest problem? In a vacuum, no. But in light of his contract and cap hit? Pretty big problem in my view. His contract prohibits the team from addressing other issues, without the value in return.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by RandyMoss84 » Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:42 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:30 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:24 pm


I just don't think the Bucs are that much more talented than everyone else they played.

Even if one decides they are that much more talented, that just buttresses my main point that the key to Superbowl competitiveness is premised on having a complete team around the QB.



I don't know of a player, but (and I think you were the one that posted it) I can think of a coach who supposedly wants him. Wasn't there some buzz about Shanahan and the 49ers wanting Cousins? Enough of a buzz that Zimmer was asked about it and made a public statement to the effect that "Kirk is our guy"?

Cousins is a top 10 QB in the league. He gets paid like it and he plays like it. Is he the missing link for someone's Superbowl aspirations? Yeah, he could be. Now whether that translates into a crush of players swooning for the chance to play with him, I don't know, but I don't think he's persona-non-grata around the league either.



So you're saying that there is a crush of free agents and vets who want to go to Houston to play with Watson? If Watson stays with the Texans, and a vet FA has the choice between the Vikings and Houston, you honestly think Watson's presence in Houston versus Cousins' presence in Minnesota would sway that vet FA towards Houston?

I'm not trying to be facetious here. I'm just pointing out that there is a lot more to it than "that team has Tom Brady on it" or "that team has Aaron Rodgers on it" or whatever that determines where individual players want to play.

Most of them go where the money is best. Maybe a few vets near the end of their careers would take less to play for a likely winner, but I just don't see strong evidence for the claim that individual players who can decide where they want to play are going to go there solely for the chance to play with a given QB. If that is a factor, it's not a major one for most players in that position.



So let's step that back.

You're Leonard Fournette. You're a free agent who can sign anywhere. You have the choice to sign with the Bucs, the Packers, the Chiefs, or the Saints. All of them want you. All of them have franchise QBs. All of the consistently make the playoffs and all of them could make or win the Superbowl.

Which one do you join and why?
OK, I know this looks like 20/20 hindsight ... the Bucs, and it isn’t close.

The Chiefs don’t have a lot of use for running backs.

The Saints already have two guys they like, and with Drew Brees unable to throw the ball more than 9 yards, they’re not winning The Bowl.

The Packers don’t run enough, either. Plus they play in the cold.

Tampa Bay has a running-back-friendly quarterback who’s won six Super Bowls, a running back In Ronald Jones he thinks he can beat out, and they play in sunny warm Florida.

Easy pick. But the biggest factor, if I’m chasing a ring, is Brady.

By the way, your comment that players go for the money ... many do. But certain veterans who have already gotten a second contract and made their money want to win. That’s the type of guy I’m talking about. Arians talked about this very thing.

Does that player chase after Watson in the circus atmosphere of Houston? Probably not. But Watson in a stable organization? I believe he would.

Certainly more than Kirk Cousins, no matter where he is.

And according to almost every advanced metric, Kirk Cousins is not a top-10 QB. Sorry, but he’s just not. Total QBR, PFF rankings, DVOA, you name it, Cousins is 15-20. Yet he’ll be paid top-6 money in 2021. More than Mahomes. More than Brady. And in 2022? The most in the NFL. Cousins played more like a top-5 QB down the stretch, but you have to count all the games. Just like he’s done every season in Minnesota, he once again had a stretch of horrific play that cost the Vikings in 2020. The season was lost in weeks 1 through 6, when Cousins threw 11 picks. It was nearly lost last year in the first month, when his own receivers wanted nothing to do with him. And his long stretches of uninspired play in 2018 cost us a playoff berth that year.

This is the guy who’s going to be the highest-paid player in the NFL in 2022.

Is he the Vikings’ biggest problem? In a vacuum, no. But in light of his contract and cap hit? Pretty big problem in my view. His contract prohibits the team from addressing other issues, without the value in return.
I wanted to correct you that Brady won 7 Superbowls, not 6
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by VikingLord » Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:45 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:30 pm
And according to almost every advanced metric, Kirk Cousins is not a top-10 QB. Sorry, but he’s just not. Total QBR, PFF rankings, DVOA, you name it, Cousins is 15-20. Yet he’ll be paid top-6 money in 2021. More than Mahomes. More than Brady. And in 2022? The most in the NFL. Cousins played more like a top-5 QB down the stretch, but you have to count all the games. Just like he’s done every season in Minnesota, he once again had a stretch of horrific play that cost the Vikings in 2020. The season was lost in weeks 1 through 6, when Cousins threw 11 picks. It was nearly lost last year in the first month, when his own receivers wanted nothing to do with him. And his long stretches of uninspired play in 2018 cost us a playoff berth that year.

This is the guy who’s going to be the highest-paid player in the NFL in 2022.

Is he the Vikings’ biggest problem? In a vacuum, no. But in light of his contract and cap hit? Pretty big problem in my view. His contract prohibits the team from addressing other issues, without the value in return.
I'll concede that Kirk Cousins isn't top-10 in the league in all QB statistical rankings, but he is in others.

For example (using https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_ ... s/dir/desc 2020 season rankings):

Completion percent - 9th (67.6%)
Yards - 8th (4,265)
Average Yards - 2nd (8.3 per pass)
Passing Yards per Game - 8th (266.6)
Passing TDs - 6th (35)
Passer Rating - 8th (105.0)

Is Cousins top-10 in every stat? No. As you noted, he's 18th in QBR.

But its not accurate to make a blanket statement he's not a top 10 QB either.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:57 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:45 am
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:30 pm
And according to almost every advanced metric, Kirk Cousins is not a top-10 QB. Sorry, but he’s just not. Total QBR, PFF rankings, DVOA, you name it, Cousins is 15-20. Yet he’ll be paid top-6 money in 2021. More than Mahomes. More than Brady. And in 2022? The most in the NFL. Cousins played more like a top-5 QB down the stretch, but you have to count all the games. Just like he’s done every season in Minnesota, he once again had a stretch of horrific play that cost the Vikings in 2020. The season was lost in weeks 1 through 6, when Cousins threw 11 picks. It was nearly lost last year in the first month, when his own receivers wanted nothing to do with him. And his long stretches of uninspired play in 2018 cost us a playoff berth that year.

This is the guy who’s going to be the highest-paid player in the NFL in 2022.

Is he the Vikings’ biggest problem? In a vacuum, no. But in light of his contract and cap hit? Pretty big problem in my view. His contract prohibits the team from addressing other issues, without the value in return.
I'll concede that Kirk Cousins isn't top-10 in the league in all QB statistical rankings, but he is in others.

For example (using https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_ ... s/dir/desc 2020 season rankings):

Completion percent - 9th (67.6%)
Yards - 8th (4,265)
Average Yards - 2nd (8.3 per pass)
Passing Yards per Game - 8th (266.6)
Passing TDs - 6th (35)
Passer Rating - 8th (105.0)

Is Cousins top-10 in every stat? No. As you noted, he's 18th in QBR.

But its not accurate to make a blanket statement he's not a top 10 QB either.
Volume stats. Every one of them.

We'll just agree to disagree. But I would bet your view of him as a Top 10 QB is in the clear minority.

Here are my first eight for individual QB play in 2020. All are demonstrably better than Cousins by almost any metric you want to use. Won't even argue these with you.
Rodgers
Brady
Mahomes
Watson
Allen
Wilson
Jackson
Tannehill

Here are my next seven. If you want to argue about these, we can talk, but I'd personally take any of them over Cousins.
Herbert
Murray
Prescott
Ryan
Mayfield
Carr
Stafford

That puts Cousins around 16th for me. And honestly, he gets a home-team bias just to achieve that.

Bottom line: If he's not in that top list, then he doesn't deserve $45 million in my book. Hell, he doesn't deserve the $31 million the Vikings are set to pay him in '21.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by vikeinmontana » Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:22 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:57 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:45 am


I'll concede that Kirk Cousins isn't top-10 in the league in all QB statistical rankings, but he is in others.

For example (using https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_ ... s/dir/desc 2020 season rankings):

Completion percent - 9th (67.6%)
Yards - 8th (4,265)
Average Yards - 2nd (8.3 per pass)
Passing Yards per Game - 8th (266.6)
Passing TDs - 6th (35)
Passer Rating - 8th (105.0)

Is Cousins top-10 in every stat? No. As you noted, he's 18th in QBR.

But its not accurate to make a blanket statement he's not a top 10 QB either.
Volume stats. Every one of them.

We'll just agree to disagree. But I would bet your view of him as a Top 10 QB is in the clear minority.

Here are my first eight for individual QB play in 2020. All are demonstrably better than Cousins by almost any metric you want to use. Won't even argue these with you.
Rodgers
Brady
Mahomes
Watson
Allen
Wilson
Jackson
Tannehill

Here are my next seven. If you want to argue about these, we can talk, but I'd personally take any of them over Cousins.
Herbert
Murray
Prescott
Ryan
Mayfield
Carr
Stafford

That puts Cousins around 16th for me. And honestly, he gets a home-team bias just to achieve that.

Bottom line: If he's not in that top list, then he doesn't deserve $45 million in my book. Hell, he doesn't deserve the $31 million the Vikings are set to pay him in '21.
Sometimes you just have to trust your eyeballs. Aside from a small group of Vikings fans, I don't think you'd find many fans of the NFL that's put Cousins in your top tier above. And most probably wouldn't put him in your 2nd tier either. I agree with you 100%.

Unfortunately for us this is all moot anyway. Entertaining discussion though.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by VikingLord » Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:18 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:57 pm
Volume stats. Every one of them.

We'll just agree to disagree. But I would bet your view of him as a Top 10 QB is in the clear minority.
I'm trying to be fair and objective, but you just dismiss the stats I cited because they are "volume stats"? So the things you cite to support your point are valid and beyond criticism, but those I cite can be dismissed out-of-hand?

If that's how you draw the line then what other option is there but to "agree to disagree"?
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:57 pm
Here are my first eight for individual QB play in 2020. All are demonstrably better than Cousins by almost any metric you want to use. Won't even argue these with you.
Rodgers
Brady
Mahomes
Watson
Allen
Wilson
Jackson
Tannehill
Can I just ask if you give Cousins any credit for anything?

I mean, really, there seems to be such distaste for Cousins on this board it almost borders on outright revulsion. I get the sense that for many fans here the Vikings need to move on from Cousins and it can't happen soon enough. He's not just an average starting QB - he's an actual problem and an overall detriment to the team.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:57 pm
Here are my next seven. If you want to argue about these, we can talk, but I'd personally take any of them over Cousins.
Herbert
Murray
Prescott
Ryan
Mayfield
Carr
Stafford
Stafford? Carr? Either of those would be an upgrade over Cousins?
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:57 pm
Bottom line: If he's not in that top list, then he doesn't deserve $45 million in my book. Hell, he doesn't deserve the $31 million the Vikings are set to pay him in '21.
I think this is the real issue. It's not that Cousins is bad - he's just not worth the contract.

I understand that point. His contract suggests he should be among the top 5 QBs in the league, but his play doesn't put him there.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by vikeinmontana » Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:30 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:18 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:57 pm
Volume stats. Every one of them.

We'll just agree to disagree. But I would bet your view of him as a Top 10 QB is in the clear minority.
I'm trying to be fair and objective, but you just dismiss the stats I cited because they are "volume stats"? So the things you cite to support your point are valid and beyond criticism, but those I cite can be dismissed out-of-hand?

If that's how you draw the line then what other option is there but to "agree to disagree"?
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:57 pm
Here are my first eight for individual QB play in 2020. All are demonstrably better than Cousins by almost any metric you want to use. Won't even argue these with you.
Rodgers
Brady
Mahomes
Watson
Allen
Wilson
Jackson
Tannehill
Can I just ask if you give Cousins any credit for anything?

I mean, really, there seems to be such distaste for Cousins on this board it almost borders on outright revulsion. I get the sense that for many fans here the Vikings need to move on from Cousins and it can't happen soon enough. He's not just an average starting QB - he's an actual problem and an overall detriment to the team.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:57 pm
Here are my next seven. If you want to argue about these, we can talk, but I'd personally take any of them over Cousins.
Herbert
Murray
Prescott
Ryan
Mayfield
Carr
Stafford
Stafford? Carr? Either of those would be an upgrade over Cousins?
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:57 pm
Bottom line: If he's not in that top list, then he doesn't deserve $45 million in my book. Hell, he doesn't deserve the $31 million the Vikings are set to pay him in '21.
I think this is the real issue. It's not that Cousins is bad - he's just not worth the contract.

I understand that point. His contract suggests he should be among the top 5 QBs in the league, but his play doesn't put him there.
There are definitely a few who hate Cousins. But I don't get the feeling there are many. I've said (maybe in this thread) that I don't mind Cousins. I just don't think we're going to a SuperBowl with the guy, let alone winning one. And I don't believe he's a top 10 QB, maybe not a top 15 QB, thus making his contract ridiculous. Not that I blame him for getting all he can. I think all athletes should do that.

I was just fascinated that some people think he's basically the same as a guy like Watson. I wasn't being a dick, I was genuinely surprised. Just goes to show how different opinions can be.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by RandyMoss84 » Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:21 pm

To the Cousin haters:

If Cousins leave and Vikings have a worse quarterback, you all are going to be begging for Cousins to come back, be careful for what you wish for :whistle:
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by vikeinmontana » Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:42 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:21 pm
To the Cousin haters:

If Cousins leave and Vikings have a worse quarterback, you all are going to be begging for Cousins to come back, be careful for what you wish for :whistle:
:lol:

I don't know man. I'm only 40 and I've endured some pretty crappy QB play from the Vikings in that time. I've seen way worse play than Cousins, but I don't think that fact should make Kirk Cousins the bar to strive for.

If whoever replaces Cousins, (whenever that will be) is worse than him, it'll be pretty much the same right? What is the guy gonna do, have us miss the playoffs? Been there, done that...
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:25 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:21 pm
To the Cousin haters:

If Cousins leave and Vikings have a worse quarterback, you all are going to be begging for Cousins to come back, be careful for what you wish for :whistle:
If Cousins leaves and we have a worse QB but a better team around him because we are paying a guy on a rookie salary, what is the downside?
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by RandyMoss84 » Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:45 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:25 pm
RandyMoss84 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:21 pm
To the Cousin haters:

If Cousins leave and Vikings have a worse quarterback, you all are going to be begging for Cousins to come back, be careful for what you wish for :whistle:
If Cousins leaves and we have a worse QB but a better team around him because we are paying a guy on a rookie salary, what is the downside?
The downside is Vikings are not going to win games with a worse quarterback with a better team around him
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:50 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:18 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:57 pm
Volume stats. Every one of them.

We'll just agree to disagree. But I would bet your view of him as a Top 10 QB is in the clear minority.
I'm trying to be fair and objective, but you just dismiss the stats I cited because they are "volume stats"? So the things you cite to support your point are valid and beyond criticism, but those I cite can be dismissed out-of-hand?

If that's how you draw the line then what other option is there but to "agree to disagree"?
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:57 pm
Here are my first eight for individual QB play in 2020. All are demonstrably better than Cousins by almost any metric you want to use. Won't even argue these with you.
Rodgers
Brady
Mahomes
Watson
Allen
Wilson
Jackson
Tannehill
Can I just ask if you give Cousins any credit for anything?

I mean, really, there seems to be such distaste for Cousins on this board it almost borders on outright revulsion. I get the sense that for many fans here the Vikings need to move on from Cousins and it can't happen soon enough. He's not just an average starting QB - he's an actual problem and an overall detriment to the team.
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:57 pm
Here are my next seven. If you want to argue about these, we can talk, but I'd personally take any of them over Cousins.
Herbert
Murray
Prescott
Ryan
Mayfield
Carr
Stafford
Stafford? Carr? Either of those would be an upgrade over Cousins?
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:57 pm
Bottom line: If he's not in that top list, then he doesn't deserve $45 million in my book. Hell, he doesn't deserve the $31 million the Vikings are set to pay him in '21.
I think this is the real issue. It's not that Cousins is bad - he's just not worth the contract.

I understand that point. His contract suggests he should be among the top 5 QBs in the league, but his play doesn't put him there.
This is the same argument I ran into with baseball about 10 years ago. I pushed back HARD against advanced metrics. I lobbied for the stats I grew up with. Batting average, home runs, RBIs, wins, ERA, strikeouts. Volume numbers. Those were the things that mattered. Not OPS+ and BABPIP and FIP.

I held out for a long time. Got laughed at. Scoffed. But eventually, I began to see there were a lot of stars who put up big volume numbers on teams that didn't win. And it finally sunk in ... there's a correlation between teams full of players with good advanced metrics, and winning. It sucks, but it's undeniable. It's true in baseball, it's true in basketball, and it's true in football.

Derek Carr is a perfect example. He's ahead of Kirk Cousins in most advanced stats, and that includes 2019, when Cousins was supposedly so efficient. He's also led his team to a 12-3 record and at least broke even at 8-8 last year, handing the Chiefs their only regular-season loss in a meaningful game. And his volume stats are nice, too. So yes, I'd take Carr over Cousins. And even though he hasn't won squat, I'd take Stafford over Cousins every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Why? Because they're practically the same quarterback, only Stafford's cap hit over the next two years is about equal to Kirk's in 2022 alone.

You say I'm not being objective. Guilty as charged, your honor. It's just that I happen to think volume stats lie. I think you can pile up numbers at inconsequential times and have a field day negotiating your next contract. But there is one statistic that has hung over Kirk Cousins since he's been in the league. He's 53-54-2 in his career. You want volume stats? I give you won-loss record.

I know, I know. It's a team game. Teams win and lose. Gotta have good players around you.

Well guess what? He had great players around him in 2018, and he managed to lead the Vikings to a scintillating 8-7-1 record. And a lot of it was his doing. He crapped the bed against Buffalo. He stunk twice against the Bears. He was ineffective against Seattle and New England. His best games were in losses or ties. Blame him, don't blame him, but I say he had a garbage season, even though his volume stats were great ... 4,298 yards, 30 TDs. With one additional win, one average Kirk Cousins game instead of vomiting turnovers all over the field like he did against Buffalo, and the Vikings would have made the playoffs at 9-6-1. But no.

You hit the nail on the head with your last paragraph. He's paid like a top-5, but he plays like a top-15. And THAT keeps the Vikings from improving their roster around him.

Put another way ... he's not a guy who can elevate a roster, but we pay him like he is, so we can't afford to elevate the roster to support him.

You can't win that way.

I don't dislike Kirk Cousins. He's a good NFL quarterback. He seems like a good dude. But I do not believe the Vikings can win consistently with him, and I don't believe there's a chance in hades they can win a Super Bowl with him.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by VikingLord » Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:29 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:50 pm
You hit the nail on the head with your last paragraph. He's paid like a top-5, but he plays like a top-15. And THAT keeps the Vikings from improving their roster around him.

Put another way ... he's not a guy who can elevate a roster, but we pay him like he is, so we can't afford to elevate the roster to support him.

You can't win that way.

I don't dislike Kirk Cousins. He's a good NFL quarterback. He seems like a good dude. But I do not believe the Vikings can win consistently with him, and I don't believe there's a chance in hades they can win a Super Bowl with him.
As for the stats, I'm not saying I solely believe in the "volume" ones and discount the advanced metrics.

What I'm saying is that while there are numerous ways to measure players at a given position against each other, focusing only the stats that support your argument while discounting ones that don't doesn't move the ball, even if you really believe the metrics you want to point at are more meaningful or better in some way. Like them or not, the volume stats are still compiled against the player's peers across the league. As such, they're useful in comparison. Not definitive in terms of value or even ranking, but in terms of establishing some relative perspective, they are.

Along those lines, Rick Spielman and Mike Zimmer have access to the same advanced metrics you do. Apparently neither believes they indicate the Vikings aren't getting value from Cousins even at his pay grade. So they're either complete idiots whose jobs depend on their ability to make those assessments and understand those metrics and yet don't understand them, or they do understand them and their pride simply doesn't allow them to acknowledge they need to cut bait and move on. If the metrics indicate Cousins is middling, what do they lose if they move on other than face?

As for Cousins, yeah, it's time for Cousins to earn his contract, and I think he'll get this coming year to show he can do that. If he can't and the Vikings continue to tread water, and in the absence of some major issue outside of his or anyone's control that could excuse a middling performance, I don't think Spielman, Zimmer or Cousins is going to get another crack at it, at least not with the Vikings. The Wilfs have given all 3 of them everything they could ask for.

I personally think that the key to this upcoming season, though, relies far more on fixing the interior OL, DL and DB situations than it does on Cousins being objectively a top 5 QB or the Vikings somehow swinging a mega deal to get a guy like Watson or one of the top QB draft picks. If those issues are fixed and the Vikings can finish top 10 in offense and defense, then all the Vikings should need from Cousins is a top 10 performance and they should be in the Superbowl conversation come the end of the year. Cousins doesn't have to light the world on fire or be SuperMan - he just has to be good enough, and if the team around him is good enough, they have as good a chance as any other team to win it all.

I'm more convinced Cousins can hold up his end of that deal than I am Spielman and Zimmer can hold up theirs heading into next season. Some good luck on Hunter and Pierce would go a long way to help the DL situation, and a full, normal offseason would do wonders for the DB situation. But that interior OL situation has been like a Rubik's cube for Spielman. Here's hoping he finally figures it out...
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:27 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:29 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:50 pm
You hit the nail on the head with your last paragraph. He's paid like a top-5, but he plays like a top-15. And THAT keeps the Vikings from improving their roster around him.

Put another way ... he's not a guy who can elevate a roster, but we pay him like he is, so we can't afford to elevate the roster to support him.

You can't win that way.

I don't dislike Kirk Cousins. He's a good NFL quarterback. He seems like a good dude. But I do not believe the Vikings can win consistently with him, and I don't believe there's a chance in hades they can win a Super Bowl with him.
As for the stats, I'm not saying I solely believe in the "volume" ones and discount the advanced metrics.

What I'm saying is that while there are numerous ways to measure players at a given position against each other, focusing only the stats that support your argument while discounting ones that don't doesn't move the ball, even if you really believe the metrics you want to point at are more meaningful or better in some way. Like them or not, the volume stats are still compiled against the player's peers across the league. As such, they're useful in comparison. Not definitive in terms of value or even ranking, but in terms of establishing some relative perspective, they are.

Along those lines, Rick Spielman and Mike Zimmer have access to the same advanced metrics you do. Apparently neither believes they indicate the Vikings aren't getting value from Cousins even at his pay grade. So they're either complete idiots whose jobs depend on their ability to make those assessments and understand those metrics and yet don't understand them, or they do understand them and their pride simply doesn't allow them to acknowledge they need to cut bait and move on. If the metrics indicate Cousins is middling, what do they lose if they move on other than face?

As for Cousins, yeah, it's time for Cousins to earn his contract, and I think he'll get this coming year to show he can do that. If he can't and the Vikings continue to tread water, and in the absence of some major issue outside of his or anyone's control that could excuse a middling performance, I don't think Spielman, Zimmer or Cousins is going to get another crack at it, at least not with the Vikings. The Wilfs have given all 3 of them everything they could ask for.

I personally think that the key to this upcoming season, though, relies far more on fixing the interior OL, DL and DB situations than it does on Cousins being objectively a top 5 QB or the Vikings somehow swinging a mega deal to get a guy like Watson or one of the top QB draft picks. If those issues are fixed and the Vikings can finish top 10 in offense and defense, then all the Vikings should need from Cousins is a top 10 performance and they should be in the Superbowl conversation come the end of the year. Cousins doesn't have to light the world on fire or be SuperMan - he just has to be good enough, and if the team around him is good enough, they have as good a chance as any other team to win it all.

I'm more convinced Cousins can hold up his end of that deal than I am Spielman and Zimmer can hold up theirs heading into next season. Some good luck on Hunter and Pierce would go a long way to help the DL situation, and a full, normal offseason would do wonders for the DB situation. But that interior OL situation has been like a Rubik's cube for Spielman. Here's hoping he finally figures it out...
Totally agree.

But how are they going to fix the interior O-line when they’re already $10 million over the cap? And that’s if the cap is $189 million. It could be lower.

There are some good players out there in free agency. Joe Thuney is available at guard, but we couldn’t begin to bid on him. Geno Atkins, a Zimmer favorite and 6-time Pro Bowler, is likely to be a cap casualty. He would be a huge upgrade at 3-tech, but we couldn’t afford him even if he gave us a Zimmer discount. If Cousins’ cap hit were similar to Matt Stafford’s $21 million, we could be in the running for guys like this. But here we are.

Again, it’s that conundrum. We say, “Cousins would great if he just had the support,” but he’s so expensive that we can’t afford it. With a reduced cap, its even worse. And in 2022 at $45 million, it’s crippling.

That’s the biggest reason I’m in favor of trading him.
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