Next OC for the Vikings?

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Next OC for the Vikings? who do you want, not who do you think.

Klint Kubiak
10
77%
Anthony Lynn
0
No votes
Hue Jackson
0
No votes
Rick Dennison
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No votes
Other
3
23%
 
Total votes: 13

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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by Fat Stupid Loser » Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:53 pm

chicagopurple wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:03 am
it is delusional to think we are "near the cusp".
we have NO OL
We have a out dated Head Coach who doesnt take advise and alienates his players
We have an aging defense and some of the best components have injuries which may be long term
We have a HUGE financial commitment to a middling QB who has shown no ability to lead when it matters
We have aGM who has a decade of evidence proving he is incapable of building an OL or wisely finding a top teir QB
Had we crawled into the post season, we would have been embarrassed in the first game and sent home to lick our wounds....AGAIN
On a brighter note, I just saved 15% by switching to Geico. And I also read on the interwebs that Google is paying $5700 a month and all I need is a computer and 20 minutes a day. :thumbsup:
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by VikingLord » Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:28 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:55 pm
Are you going to say the same thing about Ryan Ficken? If Klint does a great job, he will leave for a head coaching job or offensive coordinator elsewhere and you will be crying and whining wishing that Klint never got promoted and Vikings hire a crappy offensive coordinator like Gase so Gase would never leave and you would be happy that Vikings finally does not have a offensive coordinator that leaves every year
:confused:
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by VikingLord » Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:46 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:37 pm
7 out of 16 teams made the playoffs. It's easy and we still didn't do it.
Your definition of easy and my definition of easy probably aren't the same.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by VikingLord » Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:52 pm

chicagopurple wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:03 am
it is delusional to think we are "near the cusp".
we have NO OL
We have a out dated Head Coach who doesnt take advise and alienates his players
We have an aging defense and some of the best components have injuries which may be long term
We have a HUGE financial commitment to a middling QB who has shown no ability to lead when it matters
We have aGM who has a decade of evidence proving he is incapable of building an OL or wisely finding a top teir QB
Had we crawled into the post season, we would have been embarrassed in the first game and sent home to lick our wounds....AGAIN
Look at it this way:

The season before this, Tampa Bay finished 3rd in their division with (you guessed it) a 7-9 record...

That 7-9 Bucs team sans-Brady finished 3rd in the NFL in offensive yards per game and 15th in defensive yards allowed per game.

A year later with some tweaks here and some tweaks there, the Brady Bucs (sorry, couldn't help it) finished 7th in the NFL in offensive yards per game, but improved to 6th overall in defensive yards allowed per game.

And for context, the passing rankings for the 2019 Bucs offense sans-Brady was 1st in the NFL... When they became the Brady Bucs in 2020 (sorry again...), they finished 2nd in passing (KC was first).

Looking at that, it's hard to say that Brady really was the secret sauce that took the Bucs from a very Vikings-like 7-9, barely-out-of-the-playoffs result in 2019 to and 11-5 wildcard qualifier and a Superbowl championship the following year. More than likely it was their defensive tweaks and maturation that enabled that, plus they got hot at the right time (at one point they were 7-5 in 2020 IIRC). They also avoided critical injuries and were relatively healthy. All of which contributed to their eventual rise.

The 7-9 Vikings of the 2020 season finished 4th in the NFL in offensive yards per game. It was their 27th-ranked defensive performance that largely did them in, a performance heavily influenced, BTW, by a rash of key injuries/COVID opt-outs coupled with the lack of a necessary full offseason program for their rookie CBs who ended up starting from Day 1.

The Vikings are not that far away. One could argue the offense is already Top 5. If they improve the defensive side of the ball, which is reasonable to believe will happen, they don't need to acquire major new pieces - they just need the pieces they have to stay healthy and mature, why wouldn't they be capable of being in the mix next year?

Provided Spielman makes the right moves (meaning he doesn't fix what isn't broken and instead makes sound moves to address real needs), the team stays healthy overall during the 2021 season, and they get hot in December and play their best football late in the season, the Vikings can easily be in the Superbowl conversation next year.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:49 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:52 pm
chicagopurple wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:03 am
it is delusional to think we are "near the cusp".
we have NO OL
We have a out dated Head Coach who doesnt take advise and alienates his players
We have an aging defense and some of the best components have injuries which may be long term
We have a HUGE financial commitment to a middling QB who has shown no ability to lead when it matters
We have aGM who has a decade of evidence proving he is incapable of building an OL or wisely finding a top teir QB
Had we crawled into the post season, we would have been embarrassed in the first game and sent home to lick our wounds....AGAIN
Look at it this way:

The season before this, Tampa Bay finished 3rd in their division with (you guessed it) a 7-9 record...

That 7-9 Bucs team sans-Brady finished 3rd in the NFL in offensive yards per game and 15th in defensive yards allowed per game.

A year later with some tweaks here and some tweaks there, the Brady Bucs (sorry, couldn't help it) finished 7th in the NFL in offensive yards per game, but improved to 6th overall in defensive yards allowed per game.

And for context, the passing rankings for the 2019 Bucs offense sans-Brady was 1st in the NFL... When they became the Brady Bucs in 2020 (sorry again...), they finished 2nd in passing (KC was first).

Looking at that, it's hard to say that Brady really was the secret sauce that took the Bucs from a very Vikings-like 7-9, barely-out-of-the-playoffs result in 2019 to and 11-5 wildcard qualifier and a Superbowl championship the following year. More than likely it was their defensive tweaks and maturation that enabled that, plus they got hot at the right time (at one point they were 7-5 in 2020 IIRC). They also avoided critical injuries and were relatively healthy. All of which contributed to their eventual rise.

The 7-9 Vikings of the 2020 season finished 4th in the NFL in offensive yards per game. It was their 27th-ranked defensive performance that largely did them in, a performance heavily influenced, BTW, by a rash of key injuries/COVID opt-outs coupled with the lack of a necessary full offseason program for their rookie CBs who ended up starting from Day 1.

The Vikings are not that far away. One could argue the offense is already Top 5. If they improve the defensive side of the ball, which is reasonable to believe will happen, they don't need to acquire major new pieces - they just need the pieces they have to stay healthy and mature, why wouldn't they be capable of being in the mix next year?

Provided Spielman makes the right moves (meaning he doesn't fix what isn't broken and instead makes sound moves to address real needs), the team stays healthy overall during the 2021 season, and they get hot in December and play their best football late in the season, the Vikings can easily be in the Superbowl conversation next year.
You are playing fast and loose with some of the stats you are throwing out there and missing a pretty important one: turnovers.

Yards are a terrible metric for identifying success in an offense or defense anyway. Scoring would be number one for me, but if you want to just look at how a QB did compared others in a similar situation, I would use DVOA. In 2019, the Bucs were 18th in passing DVOA. 2020 with Brady they jumped to 5th, despite their two starting WRs struggling with injuries for much of the season.

Defensively their DVOA was 6th in 2019 and jumped all the way up to 5th in 2020.

The difference was Brady over Winston, and it really isn't even open for debate. The Bucs upgraded significantly at QB after missing the playoffs and dominated in the SB. We supposedly did the same thing after losing in the NFCCG and missed the playoffs the next year. THAT is the difference between adding a great QB and just adding an average one.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by chicagopurple » Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:52 am

that is sooooo laughable its a joke....something the Vikes PR dept would put out.....YEAH ,,,,, IF Spielman was competent and the QB of our lifetime just happens to fall into his lap, AND he builds an OL for the first time in his career, AND our Defense becomes the best run defense in the league...then MAYBE we could acutally make some progress in the post season.....lolol....just on the cusp we are, sure...
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:38 am

VikingLord wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:46 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:37 pm
7 out of 16 teams made the playoffs. It's easy and we still didn't do it.
Your definition of easy and my definition of easy probably aren't the same.
Ok. Let's fix it. This is the easiest its been in the modern history of the NFL to make the playoffs and we still didn't. Making the playoffs is such low-hanging fruit and it was still out of reach. Making the playoffs is quickly becoming our Superbowl.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by VikingLord » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:51 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:49 pm
The difference was Brady over Winston, and it really isn't even open for debate. The Bucs upgraded significantly at QB after missing the playoffs and dominated in the SB. We supposedly did the same thing after losing in the NFCCG and missed the playoffs the next year. THAT is the difference between adding a great QB and just adding an average one.
Yards might not be the only metric, but they are a valid metric nonetheless.

Your point about DVOA is valid and offers some additional insight.

But I disagree that the difference was Brady over Winston. Brady took over an offense that was already pretty good. If he did anything to that offense to make it better, it probably was in the playoffs, which Winston never got to with the Bucs.

From where I sit, though, the Buc defense was the difference. They shut down Mahomes, Rodgers, and other top QBs all season and especially in the playoffs (and on the road, nonetheless). Brady might have incrementally improve the offense, but without that defensive performance, the Bucs don't make the Superbowl, much less win it in such dominating fashion.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by VikingLord » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:53 am

chicagopurple wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:52 am
that is sooooo laughable its a joke....something the Vikes PR dept would put out.....YEAH ,,,,, IF Spielman was competent and the QB of our lifetime just happens to fall into his lap, AND he builds an OL for the first time in his career, AND our Defense becomes the best run defense in the league...then MAYBE we could acutally make some progress in the post season.....lolol....just on the cusp we are, sure...
Look at the bright side. For you, things can only get better given your perception of where things are right now.

I expect them to perform much better next year, so for me, next year could be a disappointment if they don't.

:govikes:
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by chicagopurple » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:13 pm

OH, things could get much worse....I suspect our defense will get worse as some of our vets decline and some of the injuries play out to be more long term then they like to admit. Spielman is likely to sit pat with his current defense and let it ride, which is a mistake.
I wouldnt be surprised if Jefferson finds a way out of MN, much like Diggs. Our RB is the strongest part of our team and in today's game thats the least reliable position, they have the shortest careers....we are working him like a dog, something is gonna give. The only way teams stay good for long stretches and improve consistently is if they have a rock solid OL and DL.....we have neither and no one in management capable of changing that. We also have not had a coach who has developed a QB in any of our lifetime, so I have no confidence that Cousins will be Coached up into anything more then what he is.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:34 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:51 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:49 pm
The difference was Brady over Winston, and it really isn't even open for debate. The Bucs upgraded significantly at QB after missing the playoffs and dominated in the SB. We supposedly did the same thing after losing in the NFCCG and missed the playoffs the next year. THAT is the difference between adding a great QB and just adding an average one.
Yards might not be the only metric, but they are a valid metric nonetheless.

Your point about DVOA is valid and offers some additional insight.

But I disagree that the difference was Brady over Winston. Brady took over an offense that was already pretty good. If he did anything to that offense to make it better, it probably was in the playoffs, which Winston never got to with the Bucs.

From where I sit, though, the Buc defense was the difference. They shut down Mahomes, Rodgers, and other top QBs all season and especially in the playoffs (and on the road, nonetheless). Brady might have incrementally improve the offense, but without that defensive performance, the Bucs don't make the Superbowl, much less win it in such dominating fashion.
They shutdown Mahomes and a washed up Brees, but Rodgers had a great game and put up 26 on them. They also gave up 23 to the Washington Football team with their 4th string QB playing. Hardly elite in that game.

And again the Bucs defense was great last year too, they just were put in awful spots all season by their QB. Brady came in and changed that. He made the Bucs offense SIGNIFICANTLY better, turned the ball over less, and scored more, and turned the Bucs into a SB champion. Something we almost saw happen here in 09 the last time we had a great QB play for us. It didn't work out then because the Saints are dirty cheaters and unlike the Bucs the refs made every call against us, but Favre was the difference for us that year like Brady was the difference this year for the Bucs
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by VikingLord » Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:36 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:34 pm
And again the Bucs defense was great last year too, they just were put in awful spots all season by their QB. Brady came in and changed that. He made the Bucs offense SIGNIFICANTLY better, turned the ball over less, and scored more, and turned the Bucs into a SB champion. Something we almost saw happen here in 09 the last time we had a great QB play for us. It didn't work out then because the Saints are dirty cheaters and unlike the Bucs the refs made every call against us, but Favre was the difference for us that year like Brady was the difference this year for the Bucs
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then on what Brady actually did for the Bucs in terms of at least their regular season performance. I agree he likely improved their chances of winning the Superbowl once they made it into the playoffs because of his experience.

On the 2009 Vikings-Saints game, I don't think the reason the Vikes lost that was the refs or the Saints.

The Vikings lost that game because they turned the ball over repeatedly and because they took a terrible penalty on their final drive right before one of those critical turnovers. Yes, the Saints took a lot of cheap shots on Favre, but he toughed it out. Had the Vikings made it on to the Superbowl and lost because Favre was still black-and-blue from that beating, I'd be more inclined to blame the Saints, but Favre didn't come out of the NFCC game despite the Saints' best efforts to remove him.

As for the refs, as noted the Vikings could have won the game despite their influence. The refs didn't take it away from them. Their calls or non-calls might have made it harder for the Vikings to win, but the game was there for the taking late and 2 huge mistakes by the Vikings themselves are what ultimately cost them that game, or at the very least a very good shot at winning it in regular time.

Favre, for all his greatness that year, gaveth and tooketh away. He made a lot of spectacular throws and plays, both in the regular season and in the playoffs, but ultimately, he couldn't even get the Vikings into the Superbowl, much less a Superbowl win. In the end it's still a team game and requires the entire team to execute in order to win it all. Tom Brady and other great QBs are merely a part of that entire equation. They alone are not the answer to it.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:22 am

VikingLord wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:36 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:34 pm
And again the Bucs defense was great last year too, they just were put in awful spots all season by their QB. Brady came in and changed that. He made the Bucs offense SIGNIFICANTLY better, turned the ball over less, and scored more, and turned the Bucs into a SB champion. Something we almost saw happen here in 09 the last time we had a great QB play for us. It didn't work out then because the Saints are dirty cheaters and unlike the Bucs the refs made every call against us, but Favre was the difference for us that year like Brady was the difference this year for the Bucs
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then on what Brady actually did for the Bucs in terms of at least their regular season performance. I agree he likely improved their chances of winning the Superbowl once they made it into the playoffs because of his experience.

On the 2009 Vikings-Saints game, I don't think the reason the Vikes lost that was the refs or the Saints.

The Vikings lost that game because they turned the ball over repeatedly and because they took a terrible penalty on their final drive right before one of those critical turnovers. Yes, the Saints took a lot of cheap shots on Favre, but he toughed it out. Had the Vikings made it on to the Superbowl and lost because Favre was still black-and-blue from that beating, I'd be more inclined to blame the Saints, but Favre didn't come out of the NFCC game despite the Saints' best efforts to remove him.

As for the refs, as noted the Vikings could have won the game despite their influence. The refs didn't take it away from them. Their calls or non-calls might have made it harder for the Vikings to win, but the game was there for the taking late and 2 huge mistakes by the Vikings themselves are what ultimately cost them that game, or at the very least a very good shot at winning it in regular time.

Favre, for all his greatness that year, gaveth and tooketh away. He made a lot of spectacular throws and plays, both in the regular season and in the playoffs, but ultimately, he couldn't even get the Vikings into the Superbowl, much less a Superbowl win. In the end it's still a team game and requires the entire team to execute in order to win it all. Tom Brady and other great QBs are merely a part of that entire equation. They alone are not the answer to it.
Oh, I agree that even with the poor officiating and the cheating we still could have won, my point was that the Bucs had 2 huge calls go their way in the SB that resulted in TDs versus a punt or a FG, while we had nothing go our way and had every call go against us. That changes and even with the turnovers and cheating we still win.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by chicagopurple » Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:19 am

OH, BTW.....in making it sound that the influence of Brady in the game was not huge, given that what he did in that particular game was very much "game management", taking what they give you, not turning the ball over much.....
1, those things were exactly the key to victory so he did what he needed to do and didnt let his justifiably immense ego get in the way.
2. You ignore the fact that all the key players in the Super Bowl Victory came to the team purely because of Brady's presence and leadership....Gronk, Brown, Fournette...they all have publicly stated that the only reason they came was due to Brady's presence and request. These are huge factors entirely absent from the Vikings organization and its laughable to try and draw a parallel between the two clubs. Its like a sitcom to picture Kirk Cousins calling big name NFL stars and saying , "Hey man, I got things totally under control here and I can lead you to the promised land....come join me.....". Hell none of them would even pick up the phone if they saw him on caller ID.
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Re: Next OC for the Vikings?

Post by CharVike » Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:43 pm

chicagopurple wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:19 am
OH, BTW.....in making it sound that the influence of Brady in the game was not huge, given that what he did in that particular game was very much "game management", taking what they give you, not turning the ball over much.....
1, those things were exactly the key to victory so he did what he needed to do and didnt let his justifiably immense ego get in the way.
2. You ignore the fact that all the key players in the Super Bowl Victory came to the team purely because of Brady's presence and leadership....Gronk, Brown, Fournette...they all have publicly stated that the only reason they came was due to Brady's presence and request. These are huge factors entirely absent from the Vikings organization and its laughable to try and draw a parallel between the two clubs. Its like a sitcom to picture Kirk Cousins calling big name NFL stars and saying , "Hey man, I got things totally under control here and I can lead you to the promised land....come join me.....". Hell none of them would even pick up the phone if they saw him on caller ID.
Since when was Fournette an NFL star? He has 3.9 ypc for his career. The Buc HC talked with him and told him to do things this way and if that don't work for you I can cut you right now. What has Brown done in recent memory to be labeled a star. Fournette will go to any team that calls him. IMO that Buc D started playing great D during the finale stretch. Rodgers and Mahomes didn't look like there usual great self's because the heat was coming. Rodgers was at home playing a team on there 3rd straight road game. That's easy pickings for him. Couldn't deal with the heat. There sive D couldn't handle Brady. Brady has proven he can play anyway it needs to be done. When he had Moss he was the mad bomber. He can also be a dink and dunk guy. He can do everything but run for big yardage. He knows there's no longevity taking that road. Give him big time heat and it changes everything. It does for all QBs.
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