A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8213
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 753

Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:45 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:50 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:23 pm


Again, I believe Rick is good enough or at least capable enough to draft a SB caliber roster. 2017 proved that. His job is to provide the roster and the talent. This team is talented enough year after year to contend. The underachieving years comes from the coaching IMO. Zimmer, no I dont believe he is good enough because he seems to get more and more conservative as the years have gone out. He still coaches like it's 1992 and the game seems like it's starting to surpass him.




Wow did you take that out of context.... Do you really think I was saying Mike Zimmer was intentionally hurting this team? Like I honestly dont even know where you came up with this thought process? Because I know I didnt explain it like that whatsoever. Mike Zimmer is indeed holding this offense back and I think even holding the team back at times. He clearly doesnt realize or think he is, but he is IMO. Zimmer is so stuck in his ways that nobody is going to change his mind. He is coaching like it is 1992. His entire philosophy is to "play good defense, pound the ball and kill clock".



I mean I dont know, we've had 6 offensive coordinators in 6 years. And only twice has one left for a HC job. If anything I feel bad for the guys on offense. How are you ever suppose to find consistent chemistry? It's a constant carousel. And lets be honest, is it REALLY Zimmer that's getting the best out of his QB? My guess is Zimmer doesnt even know what his QB is doing half the time. However is it Zimmer holding back this offense because he's adamant about it being ran the way HE wants. Yeah 100%. He publicly said that multiple times in 2018 and ended up firing Flip because of it (which rightfully so because Flip was clueless but Zim made it clear he wants to pound the ball). I wouldnt be surprised if our OC's are scared of him because they are afraid they will get ousted if they dont do what he wants. But dont tell me ZIM of all people is getting the most out of his QBs. I dont think Zim spends less time with a player than the QB if I had to guess.



Clearly you didnt read my last post regarding this because I explained it all there. The offense was excellent in the 2nd half this year. Cousins was a 4th quarter machine for a good portion of the season. The problem was zimmer went into every game trying to control the game from the defensive side. Play good defense and wear them down with the run. When halftime hits and we are down or neck and neck with a team, it seemed like we started to open it up. All year coming out of the half our offense looked so much better. It looked absolutely stagnant in the first half.

Look at the game splits. Kirk Cousins threw 97 first quarter passes. Aaron Rodgers threw 130. The Titans who pound the ball more than anyone even threw 106 first quarter passes. And then to add to this:

Cousins TD:INT in the 1st half this season....10:7 TD:INT
Cousins TD:INT in the 2nd half this season....25:6 TD:INT

Tannehill TD:INT in the 1st half this season....18:4 TD:INT
Tannehill TD:INT in the 2nd half this season....15:3 TD:INT

Rodgers TD:INT in the 1st half this season....34:3 TD:INT
Rodgers TD:INT in the 1st half this season....14:2 TD:INT

Why do you think every damn game we had this year was neck and neck by the 4th? Because we didnt do a damn thing early on. We tried Zim's same old 1992 approach but the problem was, he didnt have a good defense. So we can rely on "playing good defense and pounding the ball". But why would he ever change his ways right? You can look at a box score or team statistics and wont see that stat but it's the first half approach where he held this team back. He realizes his "plan" isnt working at halftime and then the offense gets cut loose.

And as for Dalvin...87 first quarter rushing attempts. Aaron Jones....56. Even better, Derrick Henry, the same guy that ran an insane 378 times this year, only had 81 first quarter attempts.

Another interesting stat that applies to Zims approach....Cook ran 312 times this year and missed TWO games. In 2015 AP ran 321 times. Only one to have more carries in the meantime was Derrick Henry this year with a ridiculous 378. But his body is also built for that. So was APs. Cooks is not. But cook would’ve easily surpassed APs 321 carries if he played all 16 this year. He would’ve shattered it by about 30-40 carries. Zim is going to end cooks career way earlier than expected if he continues him down this path. And he will because he’s so stuck in his ways and it’s getting worse with age. Think about that, he was running AP 321 times. But rightfully so, we had a game managing QB in teddy and our best WR was a rookie Stefon diggs. We now have a QB that’s a much better passer than teddy, an elite WR duo and good TEs and he’s running cook more than AP by a large margin. That’s a problem.

In the end, I dont care what the finals attempts say at the end of the day. It is clear as day that our first quarter approach all year was Zimmer through and through. Cousins had the least amount of attempts in the first quarter across the league and Cook had the most carries in the first quarter across the NFL. That is the definition of not being balanced. And sure, someone will say "well it was only one quarter"....yeah it is but it also sets the tone for the game and establishes momentum. Zim is completely content with winning a game 3-0. He's not adapting with the times. That is becoming more and more apparent each year. You just hope that he either changes his ways and adapts (which he wont) or is gone before JJ's contract is up. Or he will be out the door like Diggs and it wont be because of Cousins just like it wasnt with Diggs. It was Zim's approach (and the fact that Diggs was 3rd in line behind Thielen and Cook).

The Vikings should hire Klint Kubiak as their OC. He's a young mind, has a great advisor with his father, has worked directly with our QB the last few years and brings in the exact same offensive terminology.

What will Zim do? Mark my words...... Zim promotes Rick Dennison. And I will puke.
I sure hope not, Klint needs to go with his dad
And your reasoning behind that? :confused:
0 x
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri

User avatar
RandyMoss84
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1256
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:12 pm
x 422

Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by RandyMoss84 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:34 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:45 pm
RandyMoss84 wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:50 pm


I sure hope not, Klint needs to go with his dad
And your reasoning behind that? :confused:
Whenever Zimmer gets fired, do you want Zimmer's son to stay? I doubt it so that is why Klint needs to go with his dad
0 x

Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8213
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 753

Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:54 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 1:34 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:45 pm


And your reasoning behind that? :confused:
Whenever Zimmer gets fired, do you want Zimmer's son to stay? I doubt it so that is why Klint needs to go with his dad
I dont really think that's the best logic in the world but not worth arguing.
0 x
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri

Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8213
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 753

Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:26 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:09 pm


Rick created a SB caliber roster that was at best 3rd in the NFL in 2017? Do tell.
uh ok? Was that 2017 roster not SB caliber? If you think it wasnt, does that mean the Bills and Packers didnt have SB caliber rosters this year either since they also lost in the conference championship? Do tell.
That isn't out of context, that is what you are saying. Everyone but the Packers and Titans knows that passing a lot is how you win football games, yet here is pushing for an offensive philosophy that works best for the team he has been given by the GM. A team that has a QB that requires play action and a strong run game to take pressure off of him and a team that has an oline that struggles in obvious passing situations. How dare he!
lol wow okay. So you are going to sit there and tell me what I'm trying to say when I tell you that's not what I'm trying to say.

Please listen to this podcast, it might actually teach you something and also explain exactly what I'm trying to say. This just came up the other day and they practically repeated exactly what I was saying and have a very similar take. Fast forward to about 9-10 minutes. It's actually a great listen and they make some excellent points.

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cD ... IBxAI&ep=6

They say that Zim wants to bring in someone at OC that wants to do exactly what he wants so he simply doesnt have to deal with it and can focus on his defense.

The KEY point in this podcast at around 10:00 is exactly what I'm saying...3 of the 4 teams that played this weekend were at the bottom of the league in run percentage. I dont want that and we dont have Pat Mahomes under center to do that and we have a much better RB than all 3 of those teams (TB, Buf and KC). However the problem with the Vikings and Zim's philosophy is the splits that I pointed out. Zim uses Cook early and often to try and take leads to win games and if it doesnt work we're passing all second half and playing catch up. He is saying that what Zim needs to do is be more dynamic in your passing game early on, take chances, use the skill set of Jefferson, Thielen, Irv, etc. to take leads and then use your running game as a weapon to maintain those leads. Like I said, Cook ran more in the first quarter than even Derrick Henry who had 66 more carries than Cook by years end. That's Zim's way to get ahead. Then he relies on good defense and hopes to continue that running game the rest of the game.

They also mention Klint Kubiak right after. I want Kubiak to be the OC but they make a good point and it's that they think he'll promote Kubiak for the wrong reasons. And those reasons would be Zim knows that Kubiak is aware of what he wants and that will settle the offense and he can put all his focus on his defense. Klint is 33 and I can bet money that he does have new ideas and is much more up to date with today's game than Zim given Zim still coaches like it's 1987. But Zim knows in the back of his mind that Klint isnt going to walk into his office and say, "okay here are my new wrinkles in the offense, lets do this, this and this and I think we need to do this more". NOT A CHANCE! Zim has established his philosophy with the Kubiaks and it's exactly what he wants, a smooth transition and he doesnt have to deal with it just like I said above. If he's hiring Kubiak for that reason, it's the wrong reason. If he's hiring Kubiak because he's young and wants him to bring UP TO DATE ideas to the offense, I'd be absolutely shocked. I can just about guarantee that is NOT why he brings him in as OC.

It is a constant carousel because he finds a good OC and they get a HCing job. We would be on 2 OC's if Shurmur didn't do such a good job in 2017 with "Zimmer holding him back". 4 OCs if Stefanski hadn't done the same thing. I am not sure who the sixth OC is it would be 5 in 7 years if Kubiak hadn't retired. 2 OCs who weren't very good, 2 that were so good they got HCing jobs and one who doesn't want to coach anymore. Not sure who the 6th is.
The new OC this year will be his 6th. And you dont find it odd that Norv all of the sudden stormed out of the building with no real explanation? Shurmur did a great job because he balanced the offense so well and used multiple RBs. He didnt drive Latavius Murray into the ground and play conservative with Case. With Flip, he was the complete opposite. He refused to use Cook or Murray and passed all game. As for Stefanski, he was so good for the same reason. He found a balance in the offense. Cook played 14 games in 2019 and in 2020. Cook had 62 more carries this year than he did under Stefanski. SIXTY TWO in the same amount of games.

Mattison only had 4 less carries this year than 2019 but the difference there is in 2019, when Cook was out, so was Mattison. In 2020 when Cook was out, Mattison started both games. So his carries are much more inflated in 2020 than they were in 2019. If Mattison was also out during the games Cook was out this year, he wouldve had 55 carries backing up Cook instead of 96. He had DOUBLE that in 2019 when the offense was much more balanced and when he was truly backing up Cook.

Fixed this for you. Cousins did really well when the game was out of reach in the 4th, but continued his sucking when we needed him to produce on the final drive to win the game.
:roll: Dude come on give up the garbage time crap. That wasnt the case and you know it.

-Week 1 vs. GB.... I'll give you the garbage time there (1)
-Indy....he had his worst game of the year and what he did when the game was out of reach by no means helped his stats.
-Tennessee....tight game, 0 garbage time
-Houston...win
-Seattle...tight game, 0 garbage time
-Atlanta...Ill give you garbage time (2)
-GB...win
-Det...win
-Chi....win
-Dal....tight game, 0 garbage time
-Car....win
-Jax...win
-TB....threw his lone TD when the game was still well in reach. Again, his stats after that if anything hurt his stats, not help them
-Chi...tight game, 0 garbage time
-NO.....yeah sorry he didnt keep up with the Saints 52 points. How dare he not score more.....How about stopping the saints for once. No less we were down by 10 at half. He more than doubled our 2nd half points and put up 33. 33 points wins 90% of football games but not when your defense gives up a pathetic 52 to a QB that cant even throw the ball anymore. Hell Kirk threw for 291 and 3 TDs 0 INTs. He threw his first two TDs early in the 3rd to cut the game to 4 two different times.
-Det....meaningless game but again what do you expect him to do? If he played bad, you'd rip him. If he played good like he did, you'd say it's garbage time. It's a lose-lose situation and you use it against anyone that tries to defend him.
blowing up in garbage time
Again, false, just proved that above.
We didn't struggle this year because the HC held back the offense. We struggled because we overpaid an above average QB like he was elite and didn't have money and had to start a bunch of rookies and bench guys on defense, and because our GM still hasn't figured out how to find a competent guard in the draft or FAs.
:lol: :lol: You can say overpaid all you want but Cousins in terms of cap hit this year for QBs was ranked 15th. You say we didnt have money but tell me this, what all pros did we miss out on BECAUSE OF Kirk Cousins contract? Who were we not able to resign?

-Linval was at the back end of his prime and was a predicted cut by everyone
-Rhodes was a horror show his last two years and was a predicted cut
-Waynes I'm sure we would've taken back but would you have paid him $42 million even IF we had the money? I'll answer...no.
-Alexander took a cheap deal due to being pissed at Zim for playing that meaningless week 17 game where he got hurt. That was quite obvious because if he really wanted to come back, we could've afforded that regardless.
-Griffen chose to opt out of his own deal and seemed like he wanted a fresh start...just to now realize that was dumb and wants back.
-our best FA in Harris was actually retained at a higher salary than what he would've gotten on a long term deal but we couldnt strike one. Come to find out it might've benefited because he had a down year.

Hell we even had enough room to trade for Ngakoue and take on his contract.

and then on top of all this, what free agent did we TRULY miss out on that we REALLY needed and REALLY would've helped but couldnt afford BECAUSE OF Cousins contract?

I. Will. Wait.

And please....dont sit there and say that "we didnt have any money and had to start a bunch of bench guys and rookies". I hope you're joking because the reason we were starting "a bunch of bench guys" is because Pierce opted out, Barr tore his pec week 2, Hunter was out all year and Kendricks missed 1/3 of the season.

What other "bench guys" did we have to start?

-A 3 tech DT? Yeah we've ignored that position since Shariff Floyd and I dont understand why.
-And Odenigbo? Who they clearly planned on being the starter opposite of hunter given the year he had prior. 7 sacks when getting the 4th most DE snaps on the team. He didnt pan out but I was on board giving him a shot too and talked about that last offseason. That was planned, not passed on due to lack of money.

And as for rookies, yeah the corners. But again, that is on ZIM. Are you going to tell me that if Zim really wanted a specific corner he wouldnt have twisted Spielmans arm for one? We could've easily afforded a guy like Darqueze Dennard or Dre Kirkpatrick. I mocked them to us in each of the two mocks I did that offseason. Zim clearly felt comfortable enough with who he had. Nobody is more adamant about getting corners as Zim. He even came out and said he underestimated the amount of veteran leadership he lost at corner in his final presser.

So idk what the heck you're talking about with having to "start a bunch of bench guys and rookies because we had no money". That is 1000% false. Stop twisting situations and creating your own narratives to fit your argument. If you want to talk reality then please do. If not, I have nothing else to say to you.
1 x
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri

StumpHunter
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2350
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 381

Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:37 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:26 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:09 pm


Rick created a SB caliber roster that was at best 3rd in the NFL in 2017? Do tell.
uh ok? Was that 2017 roster not SB caliber? If you think it wasnt, does that mean the Bills and Packers didnt have SB caliber rosters this year either since they also lost in the conference championship? Do tell.
They clearly didn't have a SB caliber team this year, or they would be in the SB.

Of course by using your logic, Zimmer coached like SB caliber coach in 2017.


Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:26 am


So idk what the heck you're talking about with having to "start a bunch of bench guys and rookies because we had no money". That is 1000% false. Stop twisting situations and creating your own narratives to fit your argument. If you want to talk reality then please do. If not, I have nothing else to say to you.
You literally just wrote in another thread a few days ago that the team was starting a practice squad defense.

Here is the team the Vikings could have had without Cousins' contract eating up 84 million over the past 3 seasons with 0 hindsight from some guy who doesn't make millions to build a team:

Offense:



LT: ONeil

LG: Glasgow

C: Bradbury

RG: Kline

RT: Conklin



QB1: Case Keenum/Jordan Love



RB: Cook



WR1: Diggs

WR2: Theilen



TE: Rudy



FB: Ham



Defense (nickle):



RDE: Griffen

NT: Pierce

3Tech: Suh

LDE: Hunter



OLB: Barr

MLB: Kendricks



CB1: Ryan

CB2: Hughes/Hill

CB3: Mack



SS: Smith

FS: Harris



K: Bailey

P: Colquit


This was before the Diggs trade, Hunter got hurt, Kline was cut and before Ryan got moved to safety, but that is a much better team than we trotted out this season and before the draft.

Without Cousins' contract, Mack and Griffen are still on the team and Harris has a long term deal that is cheaper because the Vikings have the cap to extend Mack and Harris early like they like to do with promising guys on their rookie deals but couldn't mostly because Cousin's contract was taking up so much of the cap. Griffen would not have gotten restructured in 2019 giving him that player option to walk in 2020, and the Vikings force his hand to restructure in 2020. Our Oline is one of the better Olines in the NFL, and we still have a limited QB who requires a strong run game and great talent around him to be successful in Case Keenum for a fraction of the price Cousins costs us to do the same.

After Hunter and Barr go down our pass rush is at least adequate with Suh and Griffen and our secondary is still below average but at least passable instead of the garbage we put out this season.

Certainly not a team that is going to the SB this year, but it is a team with very few holes, if any to fill next season and it is a team with its QBOTF to go along with more cap space this year and an extra 2nd round pick we don't trade away in an incredibly stupid desperation move.
0 x

User avatar
RandyMoss84
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1256
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:12 pm
x 422

Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:57 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:37 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:26 am


uh ok? Was that 2017 roster not SB caliber? If you think it wasnt, does that mean the Bills and Packers didnt have SB caliber rosters this year either since they also lost in the conference championship? Do tell.
They clearly didn't have a SB caliber team this year, or they would be in the SB.

Of course by using your logic, Zimmer coached like SB caliber coach in 2017.


Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:26 am


So idk what the heck you're talking about with having to "start a bunch of bench guys and rookies because we had no money". That is 1000% false. Stop twisting situations and creating your own narratives to fit your argument. If you want to talk reality then please do. If not, I have nothing else to say to you.
You literally just wrote in another thread a few days ago that the team was starting a practice squad defense.

Here is the team the Vikings could have had without Cousins' contract eating up 84 million over the past 3 seasons with 0 hindsight from some guy who doesn't make millions to build a team:

Offense:



LT: ONeil

LG: Glasgow

C: Bradbury

RG: Kline

RT: Conklin



QB1: Case Keenum/Jordan Love



RB: Cook



WR1: Diggs

WR2: Theilen



TE: Rudy



FB: Ham



Defense (nickle):



RDE: Griffen

NT: Pierce

3Tech: Suh

LDE: Hunter



OLB: Barr

MLB: Kendricks



CB1: Ryan

CB2: Hughes/Hill

CB3: Mack



SS: Smith

FS: Harris



K: Bailey

P: Colquit


This was before the Diggs trade, Hunter got hurt, Kline was cut and before Ryan got moved to safety, but that is a much better team than we trotted out this season and before the draft.

Without Cousins' contract, Mack and Griffen are still on the team and Harris has a long term deal that is cheaper because the Vikings have the cap to extend Mack and Harris early like they like to do with promising guys on their rookie deals but couldn't mostly because Cousin's contract was taking up so much of the cap. Griffen would not have gotten restructured in 2019 giving him that player option to walk in 2020, and the Vikings force his hand to restructure in 2020. Our Oline is one of the better Olines in the NFL, and we still have a limited QB who requires a strong run game and great talent around him to be successful in Case Keenum for a fraction of the price Cousins costs us to do the same.

After Hunter and Barr go down our pass rush is at least adequate with Suh and Griffen and our secondary is still below average but at least passable instead of the garbage we put out this season.

Certainly not a team that is going to the SB this year, but it is a team with very few holes, if any to fill next season and it is a team with its QBOTF to go along with more cap space this year and an extra 2nd round pick we don't trade away in an incredibly stupid desperation move.
I am glad you are not the general manager, Jordan Love is going to be a bust
0 x

StumpHunter
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2350
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 381

Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:21 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:57 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:37 pm

They clearly didn't have a SB caliber team this year, or they would be in the SB.

Of course by using your logic, Zimmer coached like SB caliber coach in 2017.





You literally just wrote in another thread a few days ago that the team was starting a practice squad defense.

Here is the team the Vikings could have had without Cousins' contract eating up 84 million over the past 3 seasons with 0 hindsight from some guy who doesn't make millions to build a team:

Offense:



LT: ONeil

LG: Glasgow

C: Bradbury

RG: Kline

RT: Conklin



QB1: Case Keenum/Jordan Love



RB: Cook



WR1: Diggs

WR2: Theilen



TE: Rudy



FB: Ham



Defense (nickle):



RDE: Griffen

NT: Pierce

3Tech: Suh

LDE: Hunter



OLB: Barr

MLB: Kendricks



CB1: Ryan

CB2: Hughes/Hill

CB3: Mack



SS: Smith

FS: Harris



K: Bailey

P: Colquit


This was before the Diggs trade, Hunter got hurt, Kline was cut and before Ryan got moved to safety, but that is a much better team than we trotted out this season and before the draft.

Without Cousins' contract, Mack and Griffen are still on the team and Harris has a long term deal that is cheaper because the Vikings have the cap to extend Mack and Harris early like they like to do with promising guys on their rookie deals but couldn't mostly because Cousin's contract was taking up so much of the cap. Griffen would not have gotten restructured in 2019 giving him that player option to walk in 2020, and the Vikings force his hand to restructure in 2020. Our Oline is one of the better Olines in the NFL, and we still have a limited QB who requires a strong run game and great talent around him to be successful in Case Keenum for a fraction of the price Cousins costs us to do the same.

After Hunter and Barr go down our pass rush is at least adequate with Suh and Griffen and our secondary is still below average but at least passable instead of the garbage we put out this season.

Certainly not a team that is going to the SB this year, but it is a team with very few holes, if any to fill next season and it is a team with its QBOTF to go along with more cap space this year and an extra 2nd round pick we don't trade away in an incredibly stupid desperation move.
I am glad you are not the general manager, Jordan Love is going to be a bust
Fine, we drafted a guy who we know is going to be a bust despite never having watched him play a down, and still have a much better team than what we trotted out this year, and have a better team next season as well.

My full time job is not to watch film on college players and make decisions about them in the draft. Brian Gutekunst does have that job though, and he agreed with my take on Love, for better or worse.
0 x

Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8213
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 753

Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:56 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:37 pm

They clearly didn't have a SB caliber team this year, or they would be in the SB.

Of course by using your logic, Zimmer coached like SB caliber coach in 2017.
And by using your logic the only way you have a SB caliber roster is if you actually make the Super Bowl...that's a new one.




You literally just wrote in another thread a few days ago that the team was starting a practice squad defense.
I know I did? Was it not practically that by years end? You add the big 4 that were out most of the year, plus Smith and Harris, it's 10 times better. And not only that, having all those guys in the lineup helps the rookie corners that much more. Especially Hunter in terms of pass rush and Barr and Kendricks in terms of their ability to cover as well.
Here is the team the Vikings could have had without Cousins' contract eating up 84 million over the past 3 seasons with 0 hindsight from some guy who doesn't make millions to build a team:

Offense:



LT: ONeil

LG: Glasgow

C: Bradbury

RG: Kline

RT: Conklin



QB1: Case Keenum/Jordan Love



RB: Cook



WR1: Diggs

WR2: Theilen



TE: Rudy



FB: Ham



Defense (nickle):



RDE: Griffen

NT: Pierce

3Tech: Suh

LDE: Hunter



OLB: Barr

MLB: Kendricks



CB1: Ryan

CB2: Hughes/Hill

CB3: Mack



SS: Smith

FS: Harris



K: Bailey

P: Colquit


:lol: :lol: Zero hindsight??!!!! That's hilarious dude. That's like me going back and saying the Vikings should've drafted Pat Mahomes after I now see how unreal he is. I know someone else that tried pulling that one off.

The best part of this though, is how you still have Case Keenum on the roster and then drafted Jodan Love, who is as raw as they come. Do you really not think that Case Keenum wouldnt have been ostracized by Vikings fans by now? I can already guarantee you he would've been a dumpster fire playing under Flip who did nothing but throw and refuse to use his RBs. No less with as streaky as Case is, Zimmer would've been so far committed to a heavy run game with this carousel of OCs that Dalvin Cook would be on his way to a wheel chair. In turn, Stefon Diggs STILL wants out because of our switch to a run heavy approach. Diggs literally just came out and said that he was completely blindsided that we were going run heavy and toning down the pass game which ultimately led to him throwing fits. And just like Chad Greenway said and I've said for the past year, he's no longer the featured guy. It goes Dalvin Cook, then Adam Thielen. He was the 3rd wheel. But of course you wanted to blame Kirk Cousins. Blame Mike Zimmer if you're going to blame anyone. Either way, the Vikings are either drafting JJ and going on the 4th straight year of not drafting a QB or having a massive hole at WR and drafting a gigantic project at QB in your specific situation. Yikes.

And I would say that's a hard no on Jordan Love. He's raw, he's a project and if this was actually a realistic situation, that means Case Keenum has been here 3 seasons, going on 4 and we still dont have a starting QB or know if the one we drafted is even any good.

Coming from the QB guru himself that thinks Cousins isnt any good and was a bad idea, I really, really thought you would've came up with a better plan than Case Keenum for 3 years (and beyond because Love wasnt starting day 1) and Jordan Love in 2020....woof. And from the guy thats sooooo critical of Spielman and Cousins, what did you just solve right there at QB in 4 years as GM? Absolutely nothing lol. If anything it's much worse with the "possibility" of potential and took a chance on a giant project.

As for the rest of the roster, how did we really improve from where we are currently at? You improved the OL with two high priced free agents and last I checked you hated Josh Kline and actually thought he was terrible. So okay, I give you the OL. I give you the DL but I also say that doesnt happen. Suh has been available multiple times over the years and Zim has never gone after him. So that's not happening.
Without Cousins' contract, Mack and Griffen are still on the team and Harris has a long term deal that is cheaper because the Vikings have the cap to extend Mack and Harris early like they like to do with promising guys on their rookie deals but couldn't mostly because Cousin's contract was taking up so much of the cap. Griffen would not have gotten restructured in 2019 giving him that player option to walk in 2020, and the Vikings force his hand to restructure in 2020. Our Oline is one of the better Olines in the NFL, and we still have a limited QB who requires a strong run game and great talent around him to be successful in Case Keenum for a fraction of the price Cousins costs us to do the same.

After Hunter and Barr go down our pass rush is at least adequate with Suh and Griffen and our secondary is still below average but at least passable instead of the garbage we put out this season.

Certainly not a team that is going to the SB this year, but it is a team with very few holes, if any to fill next season and it is a team with its QBOTF to go along with more cap space this year and an extra 2nd round pick we don't trade away in an incredibly stupid desperation move.
I'm not sure how many more times I have to say it for you to understand but Mack would not be here. Mack signed a 1 year deal for $4 million. Mack didnt want to come back. He expressed his frustration when Zim played him week 17 last year and he got injured. I dont care what you say about Cousins contract, a 1 year $4 million contract was easily affordable. Multiple years at that salary is even affordable. So you can just take Mack out of this conversation. He wouldnt have been back and what happened with him literally has nothing to do with Kirk Cousins. It has everything to do with Mike Zimmer.

Regardless, I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say those DBs are much better than the "garbage" we put out there this year. First of all, Dantzler nor Gladney are garbage. By seasons end, both of them were playing very well. As for Ryan, dont you find it odd that nobody would sign him as a corner. Then he tweets that he plans to move to safety and was signed a week later by the Giants?

Maybe this is why:
While he had five interceptions on the year, Ryan got absolutely worked in the slot. At that alignment during the 2019 season, Ryan surrendered 11 plays that resulted in a gain of 20 or more yards, which was three more than anyone else. In total, he gave up 908 yards in coverage there — over 300 more than anyone else. He did this while posting an average forced incompletion rate. He was great at the catch point on contested targets, but the problem was him getting torched on downfield targets and allowing separation
Sounds like a poor man's Marcus Peters to me. And I can tell you that I would take Gladney and Dantzler over Mike Hughes or Holton Hill any day of the week.

As for Griffen, he was asked to take a paycut so they could pay Barr.

I literally dont have a clue how you even thought this was remotely close to being realistic or even affordable.

Here is every free agents you signed cap hit this year and next:

Suh- $8 million in 2020, free agent in 2021 (which obviously never really filled a hole)
Ryan- $8 million in 2020, $7 million in 2021
Glasgow- $6 million in 2020, $12 million in 2021
Conklin- $8 million in 2020, $13 million in 2021

Those 4 free agents alone counted for $30 million in 2020 and $32 million in 2021 with a hole left at 3 tech DT.

THEN you add on the following:

-Keenum's contract which would've been roughly in the $12 million per year range.
-Diggs' massive contract
-Griffen's contract
-Mack's contract
-Klein's contract
-Harris' new contract

....lol like I dont even know what even say to you other than I hope you're joking because you are so far beyond the cap right now it's not even a question. I feel like you're approach here just blew up in your face because you didnt realize how much you just added to this roster in place of Cousins.

The difference in cap hit between Cousins contract (right now and in previous years) compared to Keenums (what he got from Denver), is roughly $12 million. We could've landed 1 of those 4 free agents if we were lucky but most of that $12 million is eliminated because of who you decided to retain.

So to sum it all up, this mock offseason you tried to list was so far from reality it's not even funny. It's literally not even close to being possible. But even IF it was, going into 2021 we'd have holes at DT (Suh was a 1 year deal), CB because Hughes/Hill are not good and Mack would've probably been a 1 year deal (even though there is no way he would've resigned anyways) and Logan Ryan would be 30, guard (because you wouldnt be keeping Kline around) and our QB situation would be a GIGANTIC question mark for (in your situation) 4 years running now....and we'd still have no answers currently. And like I said, that's all IF this was even possible which it 100% wouldnt have been.

So basically I think all you did was prove to everyone exactly why you arent paid to evaluate talent and put a team together......
Last edited by Pondering Her Percy on Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:43 am, edited 4 times in total.
1 x
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri

Pondering Her Percy
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8213
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:38 am
Location: Watertown, NY
x 753

Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:03 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:21 pm


My full time job is not to watch film on college players and make decisions about them in the draft. Brian Gutekunst does have that job though, and he agreed with my take on Love, for better or worse.
Just because a GM agreed with you on Jordan Love, doesnt mean Jordan Love is going to amount to anything. I figured you would've learned that by now. That goes for all of us, myself included. I agreed with Spielman on the Treadwell pick. So did 90% of Vikings fans. Adam Thielen was the equivalent of a Bisi Johnson going into that season in the sense that he was a 4th string WR that was never really expected to push for any sort of starting job. We had Diggs coming off a decent rookie year and Treadwell was arguably the #1 WR in college football playing against top competition.

It doesnt mean anything until they actually get on the field. But I think anyone can tell you that Jordan Love was/is a project.
0 x
The saddest thing in life is wasted talent and the choices you make will shape your life forever.
-Chazz Palminteri