A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:06 pm

CharVike wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:28 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:38 pm


Rhodes' 2018 "crap" season: 19th fewest yards given up (out of 66 qualifying CBs), 12th fewest TDs with 2. If we could get 3 CBs to have that kind of "crap" season again we would be one of the best pass defenses in the NFL.
This is from the Star Tribune SEPTEMBER 1, 2019 — 12:28AM

Rhodes, 29, pinned last year’s mediocre campaign — compared to the shutdown standard he set previously — on frustration from injuries that mounted because of a lack of rest and an unrelenting weekly workout schedule.

By the end of last season, during which Rhodes was listed as questionable five times and played a career-low 74% of snaps since becoming a starter, his broken parts mounted.

“Ankle, hammy, glute, back,” Rhodes said. “Yeah.”

Coach Mike Zimmer challenged Rhodes this offseason, saying the two-time Pro Bowler “needs to play up to his contract,” which pays about $14 million annually.

He had one interception in 2018.
So the same number of ints as 1st team all pro Jalen Ramsey had this year?

I like the that 2018 was mediocre and not crap now.. Nice back pedal. The numbers don't lie, he was solid in 2018 and certainly not crap or even mediocre.
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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by YikesVikes » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:54 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:06 pm
CharVike wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:28 pm

This is from the Star Tribune SEPTEMBER 1, 2019 — 12:28AM

Rhodes, 29, pinned last year’s mediocre campaign — compared to the shutdown standard he set previously — on frustration from injuries that mounted because of a lack of rest and an unrelenting weekly workout schedule.

By the end of last season, during which Rhodes was listed as questionable five times and played a career-low 74% of snaps since becoming a starter, his broken parts mounted.

“Ankle, hammy, glute, back,” Rhodes said. “Yeah.”

Coach Mike Zimmer challenged Rhodes this offseason, saying the two-time Pro Bowler “needs to play up to his contract,” which pays about $14 million annually.

He had one interception in 2018.
So the same number of ints as 1st team all pro Jalen Ramsey had this year?

I like the that 2018 was mediocre and not crap now.. Nice back pedal. The numbers don't lie, he was solid in 2018 and certainly not crap or even mediocre.
He wasn't good in 2018 or 2019
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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:53 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:54 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:06 pm


So the same number of ints as 1st team all pro Jalen Ramsey had this year?

I like the that 2018 was mediocre and not crap now.. Nice back pedal. The numbers don't lie, he was solid in 2018 and certainly not crap or even mediocre.
He wasn't good in 2018 or 2019
Fine, a CB who guarded every team's #1 WR and didn't give up many yards or TDs played poorly. He is long gone and it doesn't really matter.
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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by Bowhunting Viking » Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:40 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:52 pm
Bowhunting Viking wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:14 pm


Well Kapp and Jim, I just had a brilliant epiphany!!! As many of you remember retired NFL linemen Kory Lichtensteiger is from my small town, I am friends with the family and work with his older brother. Kory moved back here when he retired so I see him around and talk to him all the time. He was a starter in Denver and Shanahan loved him. He was released when Josh McDaniels became HC for Denver and actually was picked up by the Vikings for about a few months when Sullivan was having injury issues. Then Shanahan was hired as HC in Washington and Kory was signed there and became an immediate starter in about the first week of Shanahan tenure. And I've talked here about Kory being starter there for RG3 and then Cousins for time there except for Cousins last year cuz Kory retired that season.
So now my epiphany vision for all of us here!!!
I will have Kory come over for a few days, we will lock ourselves in my Vikings mancave and I will have him watch all the Vikes games I have on the DVR and have him tell me the current state of the Vikes and what will happen for us in the next 5 to 10 seasons.
I will then start my own social media show and enlighten everyone with the " Expert First Hand locker room knowledge " like all these other guys seem to do. BUT... I will not pull the confidential unnamed source or anonymous teammates crap that all these "Insiders " seem to inevitably cite in their reports.
On the contrary, I will just have a picture of Kory and I sitting there having a film session as the header of every report.
And the very best part is the fact that my last name is Proffitt. So I will deem the website and blog "Proffitt's Purple Prophecy---- God's Honest Truth".
With some , actually MOST of the garbage, that we constantly seem to ingest every week I figure I can throw my hat.. or I guess in the Spirit of the premise.. my Halo in the ring and throw some crazy news, ideas and gossip out there too!!
And I promise when I become Nationally syndicated I will be sure and incorporate all us VMB members in the discussions!!!
Honest to god, my friend, I was thinking about you when I read this article. I'm thinking, "Bowhunter knows a guy ... he could actually do this, and it would be ten times more believable." Too stinking funny!

But hey ... you oughta think about it.

I also looked into this guy Joe Johnson a bit. His claim to fame is that he started Vikings Territory (big deal ... I've built at least 5 websites) and that he has a Vikings podcast. Funny, I also have a podcast. Not about the Vikings, but the point is that it doesn't take anything to do a podcast except a smartphone.

There's this one podcast called Purple FTW (I guess it stands for "for the win"). For some reason, I watched it once, and then I started getting notifications constantly. I would watch it, and after awhile, I was going, "What am I doing? This is a waste of time. It's terrible!" There was no film study, no guests of any stature, nothing but one random dude sitting there spouting opinions. I mean, that's what we do here on VMB every day, except we type it instead of putting it on video.

Bleacher Report started in exactly this way. In the beginning, BR was a group of guys who managed a network of amateurs sending in poorly written articles (mostly their opinions) and getting paid next to nothing. But Bleacher Report must've had people who knew what they were doing when it came to SEO because you couldn't Google a sports topic without them coming up on top. Over time, it's taken on a life of its own and now employs professional journalists and former players. They have some big names on their writing staff. Heck, the average salary of a run-of-the-mill Bleacher Report employee is now more than $60k. But in the beginning, it was a hack site whose operators figured out how to turn it into a gold mine.
Hey Kapp. Brother I sent you a reply to your PM but something happened and it didn't go through. So I just sent another and this one was successful. So it's there whenever u get a chance.
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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by CharVike » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:34 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:53 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:54 pm


He wasn't good in 2018 or 2019
Fine, a CB who guarded every team's #1 WR and didn't give up many yards or TDs played poorly. He is long gone and it doesn't really matter.
He's a FA this year. I don't see teams coughing up big bucks for a zone guy. Time will tell in a few months.
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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:10 pm

CharVike wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:34 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:53 pm


Fine, a CB who guarded every team's #1 WR and didn't give up many yards or TDs played poorly. He is long gone and it doesn't really matter.
He's a FA this year. I don't see teams coughing up big bucks for a zone guy. Time will tell in a few months.
He's not a zone guy at all. He's a press man to man corner. When we went to the cover 3, he fell off. Put him on the line and let him press.
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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:46 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:30 pm

With what you called "a practice squad" defense if I am not mistaken?
I did call them a practice squad defense and I will continue to. That's not my point. It's becoming more and more apparent that Zim has held back this offense for quite a while. More and more behind the scenes talk is coming out about Zimmer. Read the article I posted (and it's not the first one that's came out). I've always been a Zimmer fan but as of late, my eyes are starting to open. I've gone back and forth with Jim a few times about him and I can now start to see where he is coming from. I never believed he was "all about his defense" but I do think that is the case. He supposedly treats Spielman like garbage. He got "snarky" I guess you could say when Spielman said he was going to go WR at 22 last year and corner with the 2nd first rounder. Like I said before, if this was a Bill O'Brien situation and Zim had full control, Justin Jefferson would not be on this team right now. Tell me I'm wrong.
Maybe if you said it a million more times it might be true. How is he holding back the offense? By not running RPO and instead sticking with the offense his QB is most comfortable with? By emphasizing the run with one of the best RBs in the NFL?
Running RPO? No just throwing the damn ball more. You have two elite WRs and two solid TEs. You have a stud RB that can catch the ball out of the backfield.

Cook had the 2nd most rushing attempts in the NFL and 3rd place wasnt even close. Cook had 312 rushing attempts!! Do you realize that only 4 other RBs since Demarco Murray in 2014 have had more rushing attempts than Cook did this year? AP in 2015 (327) Zeke in 2016 (322), Bell in 2017 (321) and Henry in 2020 (378). No less Cook missed 2 games this year. So you can basically chalk up that he would have the 2nd most rushing attempts than any RB since Demarco Murray in 2014. Only Henry in 2020 would've had him beat and not by much. Henry is a freak of nature that can take that beating. Cook is never going to come close to making it to the end of his contract at this rate. And you have Mattison who is a solid backup that was barely used.

You call that "emphasizing"?? You can emphasize your elite RB without beating him to a pulp. You can learn a lesson on how to balance an offense by watching Pat Shurmur in 2017. Ran a ~60-40 split with two RBs that year and still had a successful passing game. And let's be honest, Case Keenum is not some all world passer. Nor does he even touch Cousins' pure passing ability. And dont say they could run that type of offense because Keenum could scramble because he literally ran for 160 yards in 2017 vs. Cousins 156 yards in 2020. What Shurmur did was constantly keep a defense on their toes. Something as simple as running that pitch to McKinnon vs. New Orleans in the miracle game. An unexpected play that nobody saw us run all year. Never saw it coming. With this offense now? Holy cow I could call out "run" or "pass" before it even happened.

The problem this year was that Kubiak was forced to open up the offense following our failed 1st half game plans of just "pounding the ball and playing good defense" because we'd get behind. Kirk Cousins threw 97 passes in the first quarter all season! However, in the 2nd quarter he threw 137, third quarter 136 and 4th quarter 142. To put that into perspective, Russell Wilson threw 133 first quarter passes. Rodgers threw 130. Hell even Ryan Tannehill who practically rides the coat tails of Derrick Henry threw for 106 and there is no team in the NFL that emphasizes their elite RB like Tennessee.

This stat alone just shows how unbalanced our offense was early on in the game. There was a reason Cousins was a 2nd half machine this year, especially during that run...because these smash mouth offense/play good defense game plans did not work. Out of Cousins 35 TDs passes, 30 of them came within quarters 2-4. 25 in the 2nd half alone. For the most part, their entire first half game plan was shi* all year.

And this is exactly what I mean by Zim harnessing this offense. They threw way less in the first half to basically see if Zims game plan of smash mouth offense/play stout defense game plan worked. It usually didnt and in turn, Kubiak was able to open up this offense in the 2nd half. And we saw a lot more success in the 2nd half of many of these games.
When has this team under performed with the talent on the roster? 2017 they went to the NFCCG after losing their starting QB and RB and lost to a team with far more talent.

2018 they lost the final game of the season to a team with far more talent and missed the playoffs.

2019 they lost the divisional round game to a team with far more talent.

The Vikings have never been the most talented team in the NFL with Rick as GM, and that is why the farthest they have gotten is the NFCCG and have only won 2 playoff games, 3 in the past 15 years.
uhhh what? 2017 the Vikings had the #1 defense in the NFL. Two stud WRs,solid TE, a good RB duo, an overachieving OL. The question mark was the QB. Which was just as big of a question mark for Philly with Foles. They massively under performed.

2018- Again, what? The downfall in 2018 was the OC/play calling by a country mile. They returned practically their entire squad from 2017. But during the 2018 season, they were the complete opposite of what they are right now. They had Dalvin Cook and Latavius Murray and downright refused to run the ball. They had a better QB than Chicago, better RBs and better WRs. All by large margins. Chicago had the better defense but this defense was still solid enough to the point there was a drastic difference between the two. This defense took a step back from 2017 but it was still a good defense

2019- sure I'll give you that one. SF was 100% a more talented overall team.

But where in gods name are you coming up with the Eagles and Bears being "FAR" more talented that the Vikings. That's just so far off it's not even funny,

I would say in 2017 the Vikings were 100% top 3 most talented teams. They easily had the most talented defense in the league. Following that many of those players stuck around for a few years but again, this is the NFL. It's hard to sustain success year after year unless you're the Patriots or Chiefs. Think about it. The Rams offense couldnt be touched. That lasted for how many years? One. The Bears defense couldnt be touched. That lasted for how many years? One. Not that these offenses or defenses completely crapped the bed but they werent nearly as elite as the year prior. It's called hitting their peak which is exactly what the 2017 Vikings did. Following that, players on the team are now another year older, your very successful OC is out the door, schedule gets much tougher, etc. Teams at times will sustain being "good". Like the Saints. But look what that has gotten them? They havent been to the SB since 09 with a HOF QB.
Kirk is great. Teams are banging on Rick's door to trade for him I am sure. Maybe we can offload him for a 2nd, our 2nd to take his contract I mean.
:roll: I never said Kirk is "great". And your trade argument is weak. Pat Mahomes IS great, whos pounding on Reid's door? What about Wilson? Rodgers? Etc. Like just because a team isnt "pounding on Ricks door" doesnt mean he hasnt played well. I just find it hilarious that you want to point the finger at Rick and Kirk and blindly ignore Zim's problem.

Cook, Theilen and Jefferson are great. The rest you just listed aren't even top 32 at their positions. Oops, sorry , Irv was 27th in yards among TEs this year.
What on earth are you even trying to prove here? First of all Mattison is a solid backup that is underutilized. I explained that above already. And for Irv and Conklin, are they not solid TEs? Sorry I didnt know we needed Travis Kelce at TE for you to give Spielman any sort of credit. Regardless, in terms of weapons, Cousins has plenty of weapons to work with.
Above average is never going to win us a SB. Ever. Why do you want to settle for that?
uh, I'm not settling for that because I'm not settling for our HC? That's what this entire conversation points back to. He's where the current problem is IMO because he's coaching like it's 1992 still.

At this point, as critical as you are about anyone involved in this organization from the owners down to the stadium custodians, you might be the only one right now hating on Spielman and Cousins and supporting Mike Zimmer. Usually when you're that outnumbered, there's an extremely good chance you are wrong.
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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by Foreman44 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:19 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:51 pm
So we've all seen the "Bad News in Zimmerland" article.....

However this one is new and it is quite alarming if accurate.

https://vikingsterritory.com/2021/gene ... -exclusive

The more that comes out, the more I think Mike Zimmer is on the verge of flat out ruining this team. I've been harping on Zim quite a bit especially early on this season. Was glad to see him get the team rolling mid-season and then sure enough he crapped the bed again.

I've said it a million times and will say it again, I think he has a harness around this offense and is holding them back.....

-Spielman is the one providing the talent and for how long now have we all heard that the Vikings are loaded with talent or that they have (at worst) a very solid roster)?
-Kirk Cousins (especially the last two years) has been a very solid QB. And it's becoming more and more apparent that he is NOT the problem
-The weapons of Cook, Mattison, Thielen, Jefferson, Irv, Conklin, etc. is hard to complain about

Yet somehow, fans are looking at Spielman or Kirk Cousins as being the problem. Rick Spielman and Kirk Cousins ARE doing their job whether you think it's at an elite level, great, good or even just above average. They are doing their job.

It is Zimmer's job to make use of what Spielman is bringing in and have the ENTIRE team ready to play each and every Sunday. I dont think anyone can sit here and say Rick Spielman hasnt brought in any or enough talent to work with. I dont think anyone can sit here and say Kirk Cousins is playing so bad that it crushes the rest of the team and that's why they arent successful. But there are constant questions surrounding Mike Zimmer right now. Between the two articles, what Ellison's father said not long ago, the constant change at offensive coordinator, the consistencies from year to year, the conservativeness approach every Sunday, etc.

I was always a big Zimmer fan but he reallyyyy started to wear on me this year. I feel like he is progressively getting worse in the sense of becoming more stubborn, set in his ways, miserable, etc. He's becoming more and more conservative by the day. I think Mike Zimmer needs to be fired now. I dont think he will be but I think he should be. He's like that toxic friend that is always around and if you just got away from that person it would make your life a lot better in the long run.....yeah thats how I see Mike Zimmer right now...
I personally do not disagree..... I am or was in your boat..I supported Zimmer. Maybe changed a little last year. But third I been pushing get rid of Zimmer. Time for change. I know there is The beware of what you wish for. You may get it. There s no guarantee the next will be any better... how many coaches did Detroit go through, before they had a contending season. Wait they still haven’t had one. Maybe the next.. How about the Browns till Stefanski this year.... maybe we should have let Zimmer go last year and hired a Stefanski..

Now it looks another year of the same with Zimmer, He isn’t going nowhere.

What’s even worse, this is my opinion. How many players want to play for Zimmer.... I get the feeling it’s not a fun locker room.
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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by chicagopurple » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:27 am

we havent had an OL that could make us a contender in a decade. That is a huge fail on Spielman. We have had some great players that succeeded despite the OL, not because of the OL.
The team as a whole has been just middling and at best and a first round playoff exit.....despite Wilf spending a lot of his cash. Thats is on SPielman and Zim
The team has been sloppy, error prone, and failed to show much player development especially on special teams, OL, thats is very much on Zim.
Time management has been and remains horrific.....wasted time outs for being unprepared at the time of the snap...lack of half time adjustments.....all very much on Zim.
All of this adds up to a GM and HC that are not top tier, not likely to achieve a championship and that is the only real goal.
No reason to keep either except that Spielman is Wilfs little Golden Boy who can do no wrong.....sadly.
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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by StumpHunter » Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:49 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:46 am

uh, I'm not settling for that because I'm not settling for our HC? That's what this entire conversation points back to. He's where the current problem is IMO because he's coaching like it's 1992 still.

At this point, as critical as you are about anyone involved in this organization from the owners down to the stadium custodians, you might be the only one right now hating on Spielman and Cousins and supporting Mike Zimmer. Usually when you're that outnumbered, there's an extremely good chance you are wrong.
This was in response to you thinking Rick and Cousins being at least above average was good enough. I don't actually think the HC is good enough either, btw. He, like Rick and Cousins, aren't good enough. How many more years of failure do you need before you realize that?

As for the rest of your interesting post, I have a few questions for you.

#1 Why do you think Zimmer is actively trying hurt his offense? It seems counterproductive, but I am all for hearing why you think he is against his team gaining yards and scoring points on offense.

#2 How is a HC who has gotten the best years out of each QB he has coached hurting his offense?

#3 What is the perfect balance between run and pass that you would like to see? Is it the same ratio GB had maybe? The #1 offense in the NFL? The offense that had a near identical ratio of passes to runs as the Vikings? Or maybe it was the Tennessee Titans' ratio, the #2 scoring offense this year? A team that ran versus passed a lot more than the Vikings?
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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:16 am

chicagopurple wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:27 am
we havent had an OL that could make us a contender in a decade. That is a huge fail on Spielman. We have had some great players that succeeded despite the OL, not because of the OL.
The team as a whole has been just middling and at best and a first round playoff exit.....despite Wilf spending a lot of his cash. Thats is on SPielman and Zim
The team has been sloppy, error prone, and failed to show much player development especially on special teams, OL, thats is very much on Zim.
Time management has been and remains horrific.....wasted time outs for being unprepared at the time of the snap...lack of half time adjustments.....all very much on Zim.
All of this adds up to a GM and HC that are not top tier, not likely to achieve a championship and that is the only real goal.
No reason to keep either except that Spielman is Wilfs little Golden Boy who can do no wrong.....sadly.
Looks like your post points more to Zim than it did to Spielman. I agree with a lot of what you said regarding Zim. As for Spielman, you need a lot more than just an OL to be a contender. I would say advancing to the NFC championship in 2017 or beating the Saints last year gives you a label of a "contender". OL is an issue I agree. He should be called out for tiptoeing around the guard position. However, we missed our chance at a SB in 2017 not due to Rick Speilman. The talent was there. Plenty of it. I'd even argue the team was more talented overall than Philly was. The Vikings simply got outcoached. You had a coach go in there for Philly with balls and said to himself, "I'm going to pull everything out of my hat I can to advance to the SB". The other coach said, "I'm going to just play good defense and work the clock". Nick Foles couldnt go forward the game prior against Atlanta. I thought we were a shoe-in to the SB. Instead, we were BADLY out-coached NOT badly overmatched.
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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:23 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:49 pm

This was in response to you thinking Rick and Cousins being at least above average was good enough. I don't actually think the HC is good enough either, btw. He, like Rick and Cousins, aren't good enough. How many more years of failure do you need before you realize that?
Again, I believe Rick is good enough or at least capable enough to draft a SB caliber roster. 2017 proved that. His job is to provide the roster and the talent. This team is talented enough year after year to contend. The underachieving years comes from the coaching IMO. Zimmer, no I dont believe he is good enough because he seems to get more and more conservative as the years have gone out. He still coaches like it's 1992 and the game seems like it's starting to surpass him.

#1 Why do you think Zimmer is actively trying hurt his offense? It seems counterproductive, but I am all for hearing why you think he is against his team gaining yards and scoring points on offense.
Wow did you take that out of context.... Do you really think I was saying Mike Zimmer was intentionally hurting this team? Like I honestly dont even know where you came up with this thought process? Because I know I didnt explain it like that whatsoever. Mike Zimmer is indeed holding this offense back and I think even holding the team back at times. He clearly doesnt realize or think he is, but he is IMO. Zimmer is so stuck in his ways that nobody is going to change his mind. He is coaching like it is 1992. His entire philosophy is to "play good defense, pound the ball and kill clock".
#2 How is a HC who has gotten the best years out of each QB he has coached hurting his offense?
I mean I dont know, we've had 6 offensive coordinators in 6 years. And only twice has one left for a HC job. If anything I feel bad for the guys on offense. How are you ever suppose to find consistent chemistry? It's a constant carousel. And lets be honest, is it REALLY Zimmer that's getting the best out of his QB? My guess is Zimmer doesnt even know what his QB is doing half the time. However is it Zimmer holding back this offense because he's adamant about it being ran the way HE wants. Yeah 100%. He publicly said that multiple times in 2018 and ended up firing Flip because of it (which rightfully so because Flip was clueless but Zim made it clear he wants to pound the ball). I wouldnt be surprised if our OC's are scared of him because they are afraid they will get ousted if they dont do what he wants. But dont tell me ZIM of all people is getting the most out of his QBs. I dont think Zim spends less time with a player than the QB if I had to guess.
#3 What is the perfect balance between run and pass that you would like to see? Is it the same ratio GB had maybe? The #1 offense in the NFL? The offense that had a near identical ratio of passes to runs as the Vikings? Or maybe it was the Tennessee Titans' ratio, the #2 scoring offense this year? A team that ran versus passed a lot more than the Vikings?
Clearly you didnt read my last post regarding this because I explained it all there. The offense was excellent in the 2nd half this year. Cousins was a 4th quarter machine for a good portion of the season. The problem was zimmer went into every game trying to control the game from the defensive side. Play good defense and wear them down with the run. When halftime hits and we are down or neck and neck with a team, it seemed like we started to open it up. All year coming out of the half our offense looked so much better. It looked absolutely stagnant in the first half.

Look at the game splits. Kirk Cousins threw 97 first quarter passes. Aaron Rodgers threw 130. The Titans who pound the ball more than anyone even threw 106 first quarter passes. And then to add to this:

Cousins TD:INT in the 1st half this season....10:7 TD:INT
Cousins TD:INT in the 2nd half this season....25:6 TD:INT

Tannehill TD:INT in the 1st half this season....18:4 TD:INT
Tannehill TD:INT in the 2nd half this season....15:3 TD:INT

Rodgers TD:INT in the 1st half this season....34:3 TD:INT
Rodgers TD:INT in the 1st half this season....14:2 TD:INT

Why do you think every damn game we had this year was neck and neck by the 4th? Because we didnt do a damn thing early on. We tried Zim's same old 1992 approach but the problem was, he didnt have a good defense. So we can rely on "playing good defense and pounding the ball". But why would he ever change his ways right? You can look at a box score or team statistics and wont see that stat but it's the first half approach where he held this team back. He realizes his "plan" isnt working at halftime and then the offense gets cut loose.

And as for Dalvin...87 first quarter rushing attempts. Aaron Jones....56. Even better, Derrick Henry, the same guy that ran an insane 378 times this year, only had 81 first quarter attempts.

Another interesting stat that applies to Zims approach....Cook ran 312 times this year and missed TWO games. In 2015 AP ran 321 times. Only one to have more carries in the meantime was Derrick Henry this year with a ridiculous 378. But his body is also built for that. So was APs. Cooks is not. But cook would’ve easily surpassed APs 321 carries if he played all 16 this year. He would’ve shattered it by about 30-40 carries. Zim is going to end cooks career way earlier than expected if he continues him down this path. And he will because he’s so stuck in his ways and it’s getting worse with age. Think about that, he was running AP 321 times. But rightfully so, we had a game managing QB in teddy and our best WR was a rookie Stefon diggs. We now have a QB that’s a much better passer than teddy, an elite WR duo and good TEs and he’s running cook more than AP by a large margin. That’s a problem.

In the end, I dont care what the finals attempts say at the end of the day. It is clear as day that our first quarter approach all year was Zimmer through and through. Cousins had the least amount of attempts in the first quarter across the league and Cook had the most carries in the first quarter across the NFL. That is the definition of not being balanced. And sure, someone will say "well it was only one quarter"....yeah it is but it also sets the tone for the game and establishes momentum. Zim is completely content with winning a game 3-0. He's not adapting with the times. That is becoming more and more apparent each year. You just hope that he either changes his ways and adapts (which he wont) or is gone before JJ's contract is up. Or he will be out the door like Diggs and it wont be because of Cousins just like it wasnt with Diggs. It was Zim's approach (and the fact that Diggs was 3rd in line behind Thielen and Cook).

The Vikings should hire Klint Kubiak as their OC. He's a young mind, has a great advisor with his father, has worked directly with our QB the last few years and brings in the exact same offensive terminology.

What will Zim do? Mark my words...... Zim promotes Rick Dennison. And I will puke.
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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by RandyMoss84 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:50 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:23 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:49 pm

This was in response to you thinking Rick and Cousins being at least above average was good enough. I don't actually think the HC is good enough either, btw. He, like Rick and Cousins, aren't good enough. How many more years of failure do you need before you realize that?
Again, I believe Rick is good enough or at least capable enough to draft a SB caliber roster. 2017 proved that. His job is to provide the roster and the talent. This team is talented enough year after year to contend. The underachieving years comes from the coaching IMO. Zimmer, no I dont believe he is good enough because he seems to get more and more conservative as the years have gone out. He still coaches like it's 1992 and the game seems like it's starting to surpass him.

#1 Why do you think Zimmer is actively trying hurt his offense? It seems counterproductive, but I am all for hearing why you think he is against his team gaining yards and scoring points on offense.
Wow did you take that out of context.... Do you really think I was saying Mike Zimmer was intentionally hurting this team? Like I honestly dont even know where you came up with this thought process? Because I know I didnt explain it like that whatsoever. Mike Zimmer is indeed holding this offense back and I think even holding the team back at times. He clearly doesnt realize or think he is, but he is IMO. Zimmer is so stuck in his ways that nobody is going to change his mind. He is coaching like it is 1992. His entire philosophy is to "play good defense, pound the ball and kill clock".
#2 How is a HC who has gotten the best years out of each QB he has coached hurting his offense?
I mean I dont know, we've had 6 offensive coordinators in 6 years. And only twice has one left for a HC job. If anything I feel bad for the guys on offense. How are you ever suppose to find consistent chemistry? It's a constant carousel. And lets be honest, is it REALLY Zimmer that's getting the best out of his QB? My guess is Zimmer doesnt even know what his QB is doing half the time. However is it Zimmer holding back this offense because he's adamant about it being ran the way HE wants. Yeah 100%. He publicly said that multiple times in 2018 and ended up firing Flip because of it (which rightfully so because Flip was clueless but Zim made it clear he wants to pound the ball). I wouldnt be surprised if our OC's are scared of him because they are afraid they will get ousted if they dont do what he wants. But dont tell me ZIM of all people is getting the most out of his QBs. I dont think Zim spends less time with a player than the QB if I had to guess.
#3 What is the perfect balance between run and pass that you would like to see? Is it the same ratio GB had maybe? The #1 offense in the NFL? The offense that had a near identical ratio of passes to runs as the Vikings? Or maybe it was the Tennessee Titans' ratio, the #2 scoring offense this year? A team that ran versus passed a lot more than the Vikings?
Clearly you didnt read my last post regarding this because I explained it all there. The offense was excellent in the 2nd half this year. Cousins was a 4th quarter machine for a good portion of the season. The problem was zimmer went into every game trying to control the game from the defensive side. Play good defense and wear them down with the run. When halftime hits and we are down or neck and neck with a team, it seemed like we started to open it up. All year coming out of the half our offense looked so much better. It looked absolutely stagnant in the first half.

Look at the game splits. Kirk Cousins threw 97 first quarter passes. Aaron Rodgers threw 130. The Titans who pound the ball more than anyone even threw 106 first quarter passes. And then to add to this:

Cousins TD:INT in the 1st half this season....10:7 TD:INT
Cousins TD:INT in the 2nd half this season....25:6 TD:INT

Tannehill TD:INT in the 1st half this season....18:4 TD:INT
Tannehill TD:INT in the 2nd half this season....15:3 TD:INT

Rodgers TD:INT in the 1st half this season....34:3 TD:INT
Rodgers TD:INT in the 1st half this season....14:2 TD:INT

Why do you think every damn game we had this year was neck and neck by the 4th? Because we didnt do a damn thing early on. We tried Zim's same old 1992 approach but the problem was, he didnt have a good defense. So we can rely on "playing good defense and pounding the ball". But why would he ever change his ways right? You can look at a box score or team statistics and wont see that stat but it's the first half approach where he held this team back. He realizes his "plan" isnt working at halftime and then the offense gets cut loose.

And as for Dalvin...87 first quarter rushing attempts. Aaron Jones....56. Even better, Derrick Henry, the same guy that ran an insane 378 times this year, only had 81 first quarter attempts.

Another interesting stat that applies to Zims approach....Cook ran 312 times this year and missed TWO games. In 2015 AP ran 321 times. Only one to have more carries in the meantime was Derrick Henry this year with a ridiculous 378. But his body is also built for that. So was APs. Cooks is not. But cook would’ve easily surpassed APs 321 carries if he played all 16 this year. He would’ve shattered it by about 30-40 carries. Zim is going to end cooks career way earlier than expected if he continues him down this path. And he will because he’s so stuck in his ways and it’s getting worse with age. Think about that, he was running AP 321 times. But rightfully so, we had a game managing QB in teddy and our best WR was a rookie Stefon diggs. We now have a QB that’s a much better passer than teddy, an elite WR duo and good TEs and he’s running cook more than AP by a large margin. That’s a problem.

In the end, I dont care what the finals attempts say at the end of the day. It is clear as day that our first quarter approach all year was Zimmer through and through. Cousins had the least amount of attempts in the first quarter across the league and Cook had the most carries in the first quarter across the NFL. That is the definition of not being balanced. And sure, someone will say "well it was only one quarter"....yeah it is but it also sets the tone for the game and establishes momentum. Zim is completely content with winning a game 3-0. He's not adapting with the times. That is becoming more and more apparent each year. You just hope that he either changes his ways and adapts (which he wont) or is gone before JJ's contract is up. Or he will be out the door like Diggs and it wont be because of Cousins just like it wasnt with Diggs. It was Zim's approach (and the fact that Diggs was 3rd in line behind Thielen and Cook).

The Vikings should hire Klint Kubiak as their OC. He's a young mind, has a great advisor with his father, has worked directly with our QB the last few years and brings in the exact same offensive terminology.

What will Zim do? Mark my words...... Zim promotes Rick Dennison. And I will puke.
I sure hope not, Klint needs to go with his dad
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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:09 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:23 pm

Again, I believe Rick is good enough or at least capable enough to draft a SB caliber roster. 2017 proved that. His job is to provide the roster and the talent. This team is talented enough year after year to contend. The underachieving years comes from the coaching IMO. Zimmer, no I dont believe he is good enough because he seems to get more and more conservative as the years have gone out. He still coaches like it's 1992 and the game seems like it's starting to surpass him.
Rick created a SB caliber roster that was at best 3rd in the NFL in 2017? Do tell.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:23 pm

Wow did you take that out of context.... Do you really think I was saying Mike Zimmer was intentionally hurting this team? Like I honestly dont even know where you came up with this thought process? Because I know I didnt explain it like that whatsoever. Mike Zimmer is indeed holding this offense back and I think even holding the team back at times. He clearly doesnt realize or think he is, but he is IMO. Zimmer is so stuck in his ways that nobody is going to change his mind. He is coaching like it is 1992. His entire philosophy is to "play good defense, pound the ball and kill clock".
That isn't out of context, that is what you are saying. Everyone but the Packers and Titans knows that passing a lot is how you win football games, yet here is pushing for an offensive philosophy that works best for the team he has been given by the GM. A team that has a QB that requires play action and a strong run game to take pressure off of him and a team that has an oline that struggles in obvious passing situations. How dare he!

He should try to be more like the KC Chiefs who have the best QB in football to go along with one of the best Olines in football.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:23 pm
I mean I dont know, we've had 6 offensive coordinators in 6 years. And only twice has one left for a HC job. If anything I feel bad for the guys on offense. How are you ever suppose to find consistent chemistry? It's a constant carousel. And lets be honest, is it REALLY Zimmer that's getting the best out of his QB? My guess is Zimmer doesnt even know what his QB is doing half the time. However is it Zimmer holding back this offense because he's adamant about it being ran the way HE wants. Yeah 100%. He publicly said that multiple times in 2018 and ended up firing Flip because of it (which rightfully so because Flip was clueless but Zim made it clear he wants to pound the ball). I wouldnt be surprised if our OC's are scared of him because they are afraid they will get ousted if they dont do what he wants. But dont tell me ZIM of all people is getting the most out of his QBs. I dont think Zim spends less time with a player than the QB if I had to guess.
It is a constant carousel because he finds a good OC and they get a HCing job. We would be on 2 OC's if Shurmur didn't do such a good job in 2017 with "Zimmer holding him back". 4 OCs if Stefanski hadn't done the same thing. I am not sure who the sixth OC is it would be 5 in 7 years if Kubiak hadn't retired. 2 OCs who weren't very good, 2 that were so good they got HCing jobs and one who doesn't want to coach anymore. Not sure who the 6th is.

Can you really rip on Zimmer for his OCs doing so well they get HCing jobs? LOL!

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:23 pm
Clearly you didnt read my last post regarding this because I explained it all there. The offense was excellent in the 2nd half this year. Cousins was a 4th quarter garbage time machine for a good portion of the season. The problem was zimmer went into every game trying to control the game from the defensive side. Play good defense and wear them down with the run. When halftime hits and we are down or neck and neck with a team, it seemed like we started to open it up. All year coming out of the half our offense looked so much better. It looked absolutely stagnant in the first half.
Fixed this for you. Cousins did really well when the game was out of reach in the 4th, but continued his sucking when we needed him to produce on the final drive to win the game.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:23 pm
Look at the game splits. Kirk Cousins threw 97 first quarter passes. Aaron Rodgers threw 130. The Titans who pound the ball more than anyone even threw 106 first quarter passes. And then to add to this:
Rodgers and the Titans had more passing attempts because they had more plays. Both had more rushing attempts in the 1st qtr as well.

So more rushing attempts in the 1st half is actually what you want. We are getting somewhere here. 16 more passing attempts versus rushing gets the Vikings to the same ratio as the Packers. 1 more passing attempt in the first half of each game and the Vikings are right up there with the GB Packers? I would have thought it makes sense the Vikings with arguably the best back in the NFL, who weren't very good at pass blocking and who have a QB who is not even close to being on the same level as GB's would run more than 1 time per game than the Packers in the 1st half.


Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:23 pm
Why do you think every damn game we had this year was neck and neck by the 4th? Because we didnt do a damn thing early on.
Depends on which game you are talking about. Most of the time it was because the defense wasn't very good. It certainly wasn't because they were tied with the Saints, the #2 seed and the 6th best scoring offense in yards per play in the first half of games.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:23 pm
And as for Dalvin...87 first quarter rushing attempts. Aaron Jones....56. Even better, Derrick Henry, the same guy that ran an insane 378 times this year, only had 81 first quarter attempts.

Another interesting stat that applies to Zims approach....Cook ran 312 times this year and missed TWO games. In 2015 AP ran 321 times. Only one to have more carries in the meantime was Derrick Henry this year with a ridiculous 378. But his body is also built for that. So was APs. Cooks is not. But cook would’ve easily surpassed APs 321 carries if he played all 16 this year. He would’ve shattered it by about 30-40 carries. Zim is going to end cooks career way earlier than expected if he continues him down this path. And he will because he’s so stuck in his ways and it’s getting worse with age. Think about that, he was running AP 321 times. But rightfully so, we had a game managing QB in teddy and our best WR was a rookie Stefon diggs. We now have a QB that’s a much better passer than teddy, an elite WR duo and good TEs and he’s running cook more than AP by a large margin. That’s a problem.
We have a game managing QB now, which is why we run so much. The stats are good, because he does an excellent job beating up on bad defenses and blowing up in garbage time, but he is not a QB who can win shootouts against good teams. Ever.

Listen, it is absurd to think Zimmer doesn't want an offense like Buffalo's or KC's were this year. He would take those over what we had this season in a second. It is just that he doesn't have Patrick Mahomes and his Oline, he has Kirk Cousins and the Vikings Oline.

We were top 10 in yards per play in the first half this year and the difference between our 1st half yardage and 2nd half was only .4 yards. You take garbage time out of those numbers when defenses were playing prevent and it is likely identical to the first half or worse.

We didn't struggle this year because the HC held back the offense. We struggled because we overpaid an above average QB like he was elite and didn't have money and had to start a bunch of rookies and bench guys on defense, and because our GM still hasn't figured out how to find a competent guard in the draft or FAs.

Zimmer isn't blameless in all of this, but neither is the GM who put this mess together.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:23 pm
What will Zim do? Mark my words...... Zim promotes Rick Dennison. And I will puke.
This we agree on. Remember though, Zim can't make that decision without Rick being 100% on board.

I don't think that happens though, and expect Dennison (a guy I have been saying from Day 1 was a terrible hire) to be gone shortly.
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Re: A quite alarming read regarding the OL and Zim

Post by Texas Vike » Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:13 am

It's a tough moment to be a Vikings fan. Maybe I should say, "tougher than normal," which, given our history, is already tough to begin with. :(

2/3 of our team stunk this year. The one of three phases that performed well, the offense, just lost yet another coordinator. I can usually muster some optimism for the next season, as hope springs eternal, and the draft is like a long-awaited MN spring, giving a fan a boost. But right now? I see almost zero evidence that we are heading in the right direction. Just a depressing time to be a Vikings fan. Zimmer, Spielman, and Cousins are not the ingredients for success. It will take some time for this trio to be dismantled. Until then, my enthusiasm will be severely tempered.
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