Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by psjordan » Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:22 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:57 pm
2020- Jefferson and Gladney - So far so good given draft position.
2019- Bradbury - Not a bust. Not looking like the 18th best guy but not a bust. A disappointment so far.
2018- Hughes - Bust. He's simply not good injuries or not.
2016- Treadwell - Bust
2015- Waynes - Bust - Drafted 11th overall. Has 1 season with 3 ints. The 11th best player should be a game changer. He simple is average at best.
2014- Barr - Bust. Drafted 9th overrall. 9th!!!!! Some guys drafted after him regardless of position
Donald, Fuller, OBJ, Mosley, Zack Martain, Cooks, Lawrence. Barr isn't in any of those guys stratosphere. He is an average LB who only saving grace is pressures, which he gets due to confusion due to the scheme and not individual talent. He has been out performed by Wilson 2 years now. Despite all of our blitzing he has like 15 career sacks. He has never had more than 80 tackles in a season and has 2 career ints. He has only forced 8 fumbles in his 6 (took this year out) year career. He is invisible. In 15 games this season Wilson has 122 tackles. Last year in 6 game started he had 62 tackles. Barr is a bust. We can put almost any decent LB in there and replace him.
I want to say I agree with this analysis. The only comment that rubbed me a bit was the "11th pick should be a game changer". The only 11th pick that stuck in my head was JJ Watt, so I decided to take a look:

2011: JJ Watt
2012: Dontari Poe
2013: DJ Fluker
2014: Taylor Lewan
2015: Waynes
2016: Vernon Hargreaves
2017: Marshon Lattimore
2018: Minkah Fitzpatrick
2019: Jonah Williams
2020: Jerry Jeudy

There's definitely talent there, but maybe the same # of busts as "game changers"? I'd put Waynes in the lower side of the middle I guess, but not a "bust". Maybe it boils down to how you rate the talent, but really you have to go back 10 years to get a slam-dunk, unanimous Game Changer in Watt with the 11th pick.

And bringing up Jeudy just makes me all warm and fuzzy, knowing Jefferson was the FIFTH wide receiver taken. The class was a MONSTER for WR's, will go down as best ever. I'da been happy with 3 of the 4 taken before JJ!
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by Mothman » Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:37 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:11 pm
In fairness, Cameron Dantzler was PFF's highest-rated CB for the month of December in the entire NFL, not just among rookies. I know it's PFF, which I try hard not to cite as evidence of anything. But it's an indication that our corners did show promise of being good starters down the road.
I agree. My point was just that we need to see how they develop. Dantzler definitely showed encouraging potential.
Our defense truly was horrible this year. Downright embarrassing at times, especially against New Orleans, and to a slightly lesser extent, against the Bears. I think the difference between 2013 and 2020, however, is wins. Most 3-13 coaches don't survive.
They don't but the Vikes were 5-10-1 in 2013. ;)

Coaches don't survive that often either but Frazier was doomed going into that season. his only hope to stick around was to field a playoff team and make it tougher for them to replace him. Anyway, I just brought up the similar defensive stats for perspective. Frazier was absolutely pilloried for that defense and Zimmer's been held up as a coach under which we'd never see something like that so I think it's worth noting how close this Vikings defense came to actually being statistically worse.

No matter who's coaching, they need the personnel to win.
And the Yannick Ngakoue deal. Fine, give up a second-rounder. Reasonable people can argue the validity of that trade. But then to trade him six weeks later for a third? Honestly, it could be argued that if you actually believed you had hope of making the playoffs, that deal sunk it. We needed edge rushers desperately. We had the most anemic pass rush in the NFL ... a TOTAL of 65 QB hits for the season. By contrast, Pittsburgh had 136. Basically, it appears that we had Mike Zimmer going, "We can still make the playoffs" after starting 1-5, and Rick Spielman going, "Nah, we're done." Either that, or Mike Zimmer said, "I don't like this Ngakoue fellow, even though he's the only thing resembling a pass rush."

No matter how you slice it, the entire Ngakoue thing was completely dysfunctional. Fire 'em all.
No argument here!
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:27 pm

psjordan wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:22 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:57 pm
2020- Jefferson and Gladney - So far so good given draft position.
2019- Bradbury - Not a bust. Not looking like the 18th best guy but not a bust. A disappointment so far.
2018- Hughes - Bust. He's simply not good injuries or not.
2016- Treadwell - Bust
2015- Waynes - Bust - Drafted 11th overall. Has 1 season with 3 ints. The 11th best player should be a game changer. He simple is average at best.
2014- Barr - Bust. Drafted 9th overrall. 9th!!!!! Some guys drafted after him regardless of position
Donald, Fuller, OBJ, Mosley, Zack Martain, Cooks, Lawrence. Barr isn't in any of those guys stratosphere. He is an average LB who only saving grace is pressures, which he gets due to confusion due to the scheme and not individual talent. He has been out performed by Wilson 2 years now. Despite all of our blitzing he has like 15 career sacks. He has never had more than 80 tackles in a season and has 2 career ints. He has only forced 8 fumbles in his 6 (took this year out) year career. He is invisible. In 15 games this season Wilson has 122 tackles. Last year in 6 game started he had 62 tackles. Barr is a bust. We can put almost any decent LB in there and replace him.
I want to say I agree with this analysis. The only comment that rubbed me a bit was the "11th pick should be a game changer". The only 11th pick that stuck in my head was JJ Watt, so I decided to take a look:

2011: JJ Watt
2012: Dontari Poe
2013: DJ Fluker
2014: Taylor Lewan
2015: Waynes
2016: Vernon Hargreaves
2017: Marshon Lattimore
2018: Minkah Fitzpatrick
2019: Jonah Williams
2020: Jerry Jeudy

There's definitely talent there, but maybe the same # of busts as "game changers"? I'd put Waynes in the lower side of the middle I guess, but not a "bust". Maybe it boils down to how you rate the talent, but really you have to go back 10 years to get a slam-dunk, unanimous Game Changer in Watt with the 11th pick.

And bringing up Jeudy just makes me all warm and fuzzy, knowing Jefferson was the FIFTH wide receiver taken. The class was a MONSTER for WR's, will go down as best ever. I'da been happy with 3 of the 4 taken before JJ!
No argument with your lists. The only thing I would add is for each draft you should look at a couple positions before and after. Sometimes, a team takes the wrong guys and he falls to the next pick. For instance us taking Barr with Donald on the board. So I wouldn't just look at previously selected 11ths but previous selected 10th - 13th guys. In those cases... The 11th best player in the draft should be a gamechanger.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by VikingPaul73 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:55 pm

I think the term “bust” is used too casually.

There is a big difference between under-performing your draft position and “bust”

Both Barr and Waynes are solid NFL starters. Maybe not what you hope out of an early 1st, but certainly nothing approaching “bust” either

That said, I think Rick and Zimmer go into every draft with their top positional need identified and pick the best on their board at that position no matter what. I guess it works when you need a WR and JJ falls to you, but overall not a great strategy IMHO
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:12 pm

VikingPaul73 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:55 pm
I think the term “bust” is used too casually.

There is a big difference between under-performing your draft position and “bust”

Both Barr and Waynes are solid NFL starters. Maybe not what you hope out of an early 1st, but certainly nothing approaching “bust” either

That said, I think Rick and Zimmer go into every draft with their top positional need identified and pick the best on their board at that position no matter what. I guess it works when you need a WR and JJ falls to you, but overall not a great strategy IMHO
Whether you want to change bust to miss or underperformer, we have had plenty of those. You don't look for solid NFL starters in the top 11 picks of any drafts. You should be drafting a star. We have too many serviceable pieces and not top 15 players.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:24 pm

Mothman wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:37 pm
... the Vikes were 5-10-1 in 2013. ;)
Well I'm just on a roll today with the facts, aren't I?

I blame senility.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by YikesVikes » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:21 pm

fiestavike wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:50 am
YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:31 pm


That's why the age of defensive coaches are at an end. An offense and QB needs a consistent offensive philosophy. Kirk is on his 5-6th OC in 5 years. We need to move on from Zimmer and higher an offensive coach. You can change defenses every year but changing offenses annually, is a bad idea.
Not quite. Stefanski and Kubiak worked hand in hand, which means kirk did finally get some consistency and the offense improved. Klint Kubiak allows that continuity to remain.
Is he any good? How is he as a play caller? Has he ever been a coach where his father wasn't on the team? He has... but his resume is abysmal.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:18 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:57 pm

His rookie season isnt better than Moss' He didn't even hit double digit TDs. Moss had 17. No one would consider this season better. Especially since Moss played in an era where the ball wasn't toss as much.
Dude you're splitting hairs at this point. In terms of yardage, yes it is indeed the best rookie WR season ever to date. Some will say Moss due to TDs, some will say Jefferson due to yardage, some will say Boldin due to catches. They all had great rookie seasons and all belong in the conversation of best rookie WR season ever.
When you are looking over the draft guys you aren't considering where they were drafted. A guy drafted #1 has a different expectation than a guy drafted #31. Lets take a look at that list when we consider where they were drafted.
I am considering where they were drafted. I know where they were drafted. If Spielman drafts a player at 14 and that player is good but not great, that in no way, shape or form means they are a bust. Not really sure where you're getting that logic from. A bust is someone like Laquon Treadwell that literally did nothing in his time here and was a top pick.
2020- Jefferson and Gladney - So far so good given draft position.
Right, if anyone was to complain about this years draft then I really dont know what to tell you.
2019- Bradbury - Not a bust. Not looking like the 18th best guy but not a bust. A disappointment so far.
Ok so Bradbury is a disappointment for being drafted 18th because he's not the 18th best guy or better? Again, I'm not sure where you're getting this logic. The draft is an absolute crapshoot. To try and ding the GM because he didnt land the 18th best guy or better, but still landed a solid contributor, is a very weak, weak argument. Please name me a GM that is landing the best available pick in the first round on a consistent basis and that player ends up out performing his draft position? It's almost kind of laughable that this is the logic you're trying to spit to me right now, I'm not going to lie man.
2018- Hughes - Bust. He's simply not good injuries or not.
2016- Treadwell - Bust
Yup these are the two I gave you.

Now here's where you go to some extraordinary lengths and it gets realllllll interesting....
2015- Waynes - Bust - Drafted 11th overall. Has 1 season with 3 ints. The 11th best player should be a game changer. He simple is average at best.
hmm, well since he has 1 season with 3 ints that makes him a bust? But let me guess, you think Marcus Peters was and he's a game changer right? Because he has so many INTs? Is that your benchmark? Because what you might not know is that Marcus Peters has given up more yards and TDs than any CB in the NFL since he was drafted. So yeah, the picks are cool and all but when you're nearly 1:1 in TDs given up vs. INTs, that really doesnt benefit you or your team.

The Waynes argument with Vikings fans is very similar to the Cousins one. What I mean is Waynes was a bust in fans' eyes because he struggled in the first year or two of his career (which rightfully so being a rookie) yet he never once graded worse than a 63.4 overall. Same deal with Cousins when he got here in 2018 and to this day it will forever be held over their head. I mean we can use Marcus Peters as a benchmark when talking Waynes (even though there is much more to playing corner than just picks....ask one of the 2 teams that let him go). Or Kyle Fuller since you said Barr isnt even in the same stratosphere as Fuller below.

Waynes has never had a grade below 63.4 in his entire career. Both Peters and Fuller have twice. No less like I said above, Peters has given up more TDs than any CB in that time and it's really not even close. And Fuller has been targeted about 80 more times than Waynes has and 100 more times than Peters. For someone that's supposedly light years better than someone like Anthony Barr, how is he being targeted 323 times over that span? Clearly QBs arent scared of him. But in regards to Waynes, I would say he was slightly above average in coverage and elite vs. the run. Something else you also fail to mention. You want to hold tackle numbers over Barr's head, yet no mention of Waynes tackling ability?
2014- Barr - Bust. Drafted 9th overrall. 9th!!!!! Some guys drafted after him regardless of position
Donald, Fuller, OBJ, Mosley, Zack Martain, Cooks, Lawrence. Barr isn't in any of those guys stratosphere. He is an average LB who only saving grace is pressures, which he gets due to confusion due to the scheme and not individual talent. He has been out performed by Wilson 2 years now. Despite all of our blitzing he has like 15 career sacks. He has never had more than 80 tackles in a season and has 2 career ints. He has only forced 8 fumbles in his 6 (took this year out) year career. He is invisible. In 15 games this season Wilson has 122 tackles. Last year in 6 game started he had 62 tackles. Barr is a bust. We can put almost any decent LB in there and replace him.
ugh where to start....#1- Brandon Cooks has been on 4 different teams since 2014. For a guy that you claim to be so great, he's changed homes quite a bit in that time span. #2- I'd have to look it up but I'd be willing to bet that Fuller has been targeted more than any other CB in that span. 323 targets is insane. Nobody is shying away from him, he's not a shutdown type CB but somehow Anthony Barr doesnt belong in the same stratosphere? Come on....

No less some statistics that actually carry some weight....

After the 2018 season Barr was:

2nd best LB in yards allowed per coverage snap,
3rd best LB in targets per coverage snap,
3rd best LB in catches allowed per coverage snap,
1st best LB in pass rushing productivity, and
15th best LB in run defense grade.

.....and you're calling him a bust :confused:

And my second point I wanted to make.....Eric Wilson. Everyone drools over Wilson because of his coverage skills. However, what people dont realize is that he's downright terrible vs. the run. He's constantly getting washed out of his gap and led the Vikings in missed tackles by a wide margin. He was a bottom 5 run defender according to PFF this year. So saying how many tackles he has is a pretty weak stat if you ask me. That doesnt tell the whole story. Not even close.

And also, the depth discussion at LB...going into this year Wilson WAS a depth piece. Gedeon was the starter at WLB but didnt ended up getting hurt this year. And either way, that WLB position in Zims defense hardly plays. Mainly on running downs. Hence why Wilson couldnt ever beat out Gedeon, because WIlson was terrible against the run and Gedeon always did his job for the most part.

Either way, the main point is, Anthony Barr is not a bust. Not even close. That's just silly to even think that.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:14 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:18 am

Dude you're splitting hairs at this point. In terms of yardage, yes it is indeed the best rookie WR season ever to date. Some will say Moss due to TDs, some will say Jefferson due to yardage, some will say Boldin due to catches. They all had great rookie seasons and all belong in the conversation of best rookie WR season ever.
Still no. Moss had similar numbers to all of the above-mentioned names but double the TDs. No Jefferson didn't have the greatest season for a WR and no one will say so. No one objectively looking at it.
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:18 am
I am considering where they were drafted. I know where they were drafted. If Spielman drafts a player at 14 and that player is good but not great, that in no way, shape or form means they are a bust. Not really sure where you're getting that logic from. A bust is someone like Laquon Treadwell that literally did nothing in his time here and was a top pick.
I see how you tried to move the draft position back to 14th. *Clever girl meme* These guys were drafted 9th and 11th. Remove the word bust then. Let's use disappointments. Speilman has drafted many 1st round disappointments. If you are drafted 9th overall and you are recording 70 tackles at a position where others are recording 130. You are a disappointment. He has 15 career sacks in 7 years in a defense that blitzs him all of the time. Laughable. The nest thing you can say about Waynes is that he isn't "bad". He lacks ball skills, if prone to defensive penalties but tackles really well :rofl:. These guys should have been the 9th and 11th best players in a draft.

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:18 am
Ok so Bradbury is a disappointment for being drafted 18th because he's not the 18th best guy or better?
Yes!!!!!!
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:18 am
Again, I'm not sure where you're getting this logic. The draft is an absolute crapshoot. To try and ding the GM because he didnt land the 18th best guy or better, but still landed a solid contributor, is a very weak, weak argument. Please name me a GM that is landing the best available pick in the first round on a consistent basis and that player ends up outperforming his draft position? It's almost kind of laughable that this is the logic you're trying to spit to me right now, I'm not going to lie man.
Are you going to argue what I presented or ask me to argue what other GMs are doing. What Speilman did was draft a guy very high in the draft that as of yet, doesn't look to be worthy of that positon. In fact.... Both of the Centers taken after him have soundly outplayed him to this point. In Jenkins and McCoy and they were drafted in the 2nd round. Again, we are drafting decent players at positions that we should be drafting home run studs.

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:18 am
hmm, well since he has 1 season with 3 ints that makes him a bust? But let me guess, you think Marcus Peters was and he's a game changer right? Because he has so many INTs? Is that your benchmark? Because what you might not know is that Marcus Peters has given up more yards and TDs than any CB in the NFL since he was drafted. So yeah, the picks are cool and all but when you're nearly 1:1 in TDs given up vs. INTs, that really doesnt benefit you or your team.
I don't think there is a DC in the NFL that would take Waynes over Peters based on performance.

The Waynes argument with Vikings fans is very similar to the Cousins one. What I mean is Waynes was a bust in fans' eyes because he struggled in the first year or two of his career (which rightfully so being a rookie) yet he never once graded worse than a 63.4 overall. Same deal with Cousins when he got here in 2018 and to this day it will forever be held over their head. I mean we can use Marcus Peters as a benchmark when talking Waynes (even though there is much more to playing corner than just picks....ask one of the 2 teams that let him go). Or Kyle Fuller since you said Barr isnt even in the same stratosphere as Fuller below.

Waynes has never had a grade below 63.4 in his entire career. Both Peters and Fuller have twice. No less like I said above, Peters has given up more TDs than any CB in that time and it's really not even close. And Fuller has been targeted about 80 more times than Waynes has and 100 more times than Peters. For someone that's supposedly light years better than someone like Anthony Barr, how is he being targeted 323 times over that span? Clearly QBs arent scared of him. But in regards to Waynes, I would say he was slightly above average in coverage and elite vs. the run. Something else you also fail to mention. You want to hold tackle numbers over Barr's head, yet no mention of Waynes tackling ability?
2014- Barr - Bust. Drafted 9th overrall. 9th!!!!! Some guys drafted after him regardless of position
Donald, Fuller, OBJ, Mosley, Zack Martain, Cooks, Lawrence. Barr isn't in any of those guys stratosphere. He is an average LB who only saving grace is pressures, which he gets due to confusion due to the scheme and not individual talent. He has been out performed by Wilson 2 years now. Despite all of our blitzing he has like 15 career sacks. He has never had more than 80 tackles in a season and has 2 career ints. He has only forced 8 fumbles in his 6 (took this year out) year career. He is invisible. In 15 games this season Wilson has 122 tackles. Last year in 6 game started he had 62 tackles. Barr is a bust. We can put almost any decent LB in there and replace him.
ugh where to start....#1- Brandon Cooks has been on 4 different teams since 2014. For a guy that you claim to be so great, he's changed homes quite a bit in that time span. #2- I'd have to look it up but I'd be willing to bet that Fuller has been targeted more than any other CB in that span. 323 targets is insane. Nobody is shying away from him, he's not a shutdown type CB but somehow Anthony Barr doesnt belong in the same stratosphere? Come on....

No less some statistics that actually carry some weight....

After the 2018 season Barr was:

2nd best LB in yards allowed per coverage snap,
3rd best LB in targets per coverage snap,
3rd best LB in catches allowed per coverage snap,
1st best LB in pass rushing productivity, and
15th best LB in run defense grade.

.....and you're calling him a bust :confused:

And my second point I wanted to make.....Eric Wilson. Everyone drools over Wilson because of his coverage skills. However, what people dont realize is that he's downright terrible vs. the run. He's constantly getting washed out of his gap and led the Vikings in missed tackles by a wide margin. He was a bottom 5 run defender according to PFF this year. So saying how many tackles he has is a pretty weak stat if you ask me. That doesnt tell the whole story. Not even close.

And also, the depth discussion at LB...going into this year Wilson WAS a depth piece. Gedeon was the starter at WLB but didnt ended up getting hurt this year. And either way, that WLB position in Zims defense hardly plays. Mainly on running downs. Hence why Wilson couldnt ever beat out Gedeon, because WIlson was terrible against the run and Gedeon always did his job for the most part.

Either way, the main point is, Anthony Barr is not a bust. Not even close. That's just silly to even think that.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:00 am

Waynes was a low value pick. He gave us solid CB play for 3 seasons and then was gone. Good value for a 2nd round pick, not 11th overall and he is doing nothing for the Vikings to make us better atm.
Bradford was a bad value trade. The worst full time starting QB of the 2010's who went 7-8 as a starter for us and then got hurt.
Hughes is a bust.
Bradbury is a below average center two years into his career that was taken 18th overall. Center is a position many teams fill in later rounds and to justify being picked that high he needed to be one of the better centers in the NFL, not a developmental guy. A bad pick.
Gladney was terrible in his rookie season. Way to premature to call him a bust right now, but based on one season he is trending towards bust status.

That is how the Vikings have used their last 5 1st round picks. They hit a homerun with Buffalo's first and got JJ, but the above use of the team's most valuable asset to get better each season, along with poor allocation of cap space is why this team went 7-9 and struggled to beat the Jacksonville Jaguars.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:12 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:14 am

Still no. Moss had similar numbers to all of the above-mentioned names but double the TDs. No Jefferson didn't have the greatest season for a WR and no one will say so. No one objectively looking at it.
lol ok dude, top 3 best rookie WR season ever....there, conversation over.
I see how you tried to move the draft position back to 14th. *Clever girl meme* These guys were drafted 9th and 11th. Remove the word bust then. Let's use disappointments. Speilman has drafted many 1st round disappointments. If you are drafted 9th overall and you are recording 70 tackles at a position where others are recording 130. You are a disappointment. He has 15 career sacks in 7 years in a defense that blitzs him all of the time. Laughable. The nest thing you can say about Waynes is that he isn't "bad". He lacks ball skills, if prone to defensive penalties but tackles really well :rofl:. These guys should have been the 9th and 11th best players in a draft.
1.) No? I said 14th because that is indeed where the Vikings will be picking this upcoming draft.

2.) In regards to Barr, you're literally calling him a disappointment based on his tackles statistic you're finding on NFL.com. Yet you completely ignore the facts that I last posted regarding Barr. Probably because they drastically effect the argument you're trying to make. He was a top 3 LB in 4 of 5 major categories. You want to knock his run defense because he was floating at league average? Okay well Eric Wilson is at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to run defense. Something else you also flat out ignored. Oh and then you knock his sacks, because they dont look up to par on NFL.com. Yet he was the NUMBER ONE 4-3 LB in pass rushing productivity in 2018. Weird....

Actually read this, watch these breakdowns and maybe try and educate yourself on Barr and how important he is to this defense.

3.) lol again, I really want to know where you're getting your statistics from. Waynes has had 5 pass interference calls on him in the last 3 years with the Vikings. Just to put that in perspective....Xavier Rhodes had 9 in that same time span. Trae Waynes was also targeted 240 times over that span compared to Rhodes' 223. So no, he's really not prone to defensive penalties if he's hardly ever committing them over a 3 year span. So that observation is false.


Are you going to argue what I presented or ask me to argue what other GMs are doing. What Speilman did was draft a guy very high in the draft that as of yet, doesn't look to be worthy of that positon. In fact.... Both of the Centers taken after him have soundly outplayed him to this point. In Jenkins and McCoy and they were drafted in the 2nd round. Again, we are drafting decent players at positions that we should be drafting home run studs.
Well now you're just contradicting yourself. You try to "catch me" in referring to the 14th pick above (which you were completely wrong about the reasoning behind it) and say that the 9th and 11th pick should be home runs. And now here you're saying the 18th pick should be a home run stud. So I'm confused, is the 14th pick not suppose to be a home run stud? Like where is the cutoff for the "home run stud" first round pick on that logical Richter Scale of yours?

And FYI, yes that does often happen. Picks that come after a specific position end up being better than the one taken ahead of them. I mean 4 teams passed on Justin Jefferson and took a different WR and Jefferson out performed all of them by a large margin. Does that mean all 4 of those GMs dont know what they are doing? Should be fired? Etc.? 19 wide receivers were taken in 2015 before Stefon Diggs. Diggs is currently playing like a top 5 WR in the NFL. Does that mean all 19 of those GMs should be fired? I could go on and on with a million different picks and a million different positions. The draft is a crapshoot. That is reality. Do you realize how many times over the years back end first round picks to early second round picks DRASTICALLY out perform early first round picks? It literally happens all the time, every single year. If GM job security was solely based on that, 98% of NFL teams would be looking for a new GM every year.

Like I'm sorry but this logic is just laughable right now. It's like the most basic, bland, on the surface view of what a GM should be doing. You're practically saying Rick Spielman should be drafting "pick A's" value or better every time in the first round (and beyond I'm guessing). Like what? Okay, name me one GM that has done that or has even come close to that....like, ever? I'm literally just looking for one. Because I know you wont be able to list them because it is indeed that rare or near impossible for that matter. The best "GM" we've seen in the last 20 years is probably fricken Bill Belichick and he's the head coach! He's the only one that was legitimately able to sustain a dynasty for an extended period of time.


I don't think there is a DC in the NFL that would take Waynes over Peters based on performance.
So do you think there no real reason behind Marcus Peters being on his 3rd team since his rookie year? And no dont try and point towards off the field issues or anything along those lines. Because the Rams decided to let "Mr. Interception" go and go get Jalen Ramsey instead (who's just as much of a loud mouth diva). But look how good the Rams defense is now. Actually #1 in the NFL to be exact. Compared to the 19th total defense and 14th total pass defense in 2018 when Peters was there. The year they went to the SB no less. Trust me, my father is a big Rams fan so I've always liked them. The only team I watch more than them is the Vikings. My father CONSTANTLY complained about Peters. Because he literally got burnt all the time and constantly takes gambles. Those gambles are why interception totals are high, but they are also why he's given up more yardage and TDs than ANY SINGLE CB in that time span. I can guarantee you that teams dont just pull up NFL.com and see how many picks he has and calls him a good CB. There is a reason behind him jumping from team to team.
Marcus Peters was toasted into a cremated piece of bread; a flaming slice that had the fire alarm going haywire and the kitchen filled with smoke, fanning and coughing.

When the LA Rams traded for Peters, the league quaked with fear. A big-time corner joining the elite team, the pre-season favorite. Well that was sure to break the NFL

But since a pick-six against the Oakland Raiders, Peters’ expected 2018 success hasn’t transpired yet and he’s consistently been burned by opponents
No less this was an actual one game statistic of Peters at the Rams.....
9 targets
6 receptions
4 tds
Yards per target 28 yards
QBR allowed 109.7
....need I say more? Like I said, the interceptions at record pace are great and all, but he's also on pace to give up the most yardage and TDs ever as a starting corner. So in the end, how good is Marcus Peters? Marcus Peters is like upstate NY weather. It's either really hot or really cold. That's Peters in a nutshell and to be honest, I'm not sure how much that really benefits a team? There are already a few teams that have noticed that it doesnt benefit their team and let him go. Those two teams? The Chiefs and Rams, two teams that have been to or won a SB over that span.
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YikesVikes
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:37 pm

Just wanted to say before I respond to your response.... my post was incomplete. I had to leave the office and didn't get to address everything in it @PHP
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by VikingLord » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:43 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:00 am
Waynes was a low value pick. He gave us solid CB play for 3 seasons and then was gone. Good value for a 2nd round pick, not 11th overall and he is doing nothing for the Vikings to make us better atm.
Bradford was a bad value trade. The worst full time starting QB of the 2010's who went 7-8 as a starter for us and then got hurt.
Hughes is a bust.
Bradbury is a below average center two years into his career that was taken 18th overall. Center is a position many teams fill in later rounds and to justify being picked that high he needed to be one of the better centers in the NFL, not a developmental guy. A bad pick.
Gladney was terrible in his rookie season. Way to premature to call him a bust right now, but based on one season he is trending towards bust status.

That is how the Vikings have used their last 5 1st round picks. They hit a homerun with Buffalo's first and got JJ, but the above use of the team's most valuable asset to get better each season, along with poor allocation of cap space is why this team went 7-9 and struggled to beat the Jacksonville Jaguars.
I don't have stats to back this up, but you don't put the Vikings recent 1st round picks into context.

My strong suspicion is that most teams have similar outcomes as the Vikings have with their first round picks. They will be able to point to some successful picks, average picks, and outright busts in the 1st round over the same time period. Some will have more hits and some more misses and maybe some will produce largely average outcomes, but without that context and based on what you've posted one would conclude that Spielman must be terrible.

Spielman isn't that bad. He's probably about average overall in terms of his drafts and the players he's acquired. The Vikings have notable talent on both sides of the football, whether that talent was acquired in the 1st round or not.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:46 pm

I decided to just address the leftover of your post because it was getting too long with many of the quotes.
I fear my friend that you are doing the old magician trick of distracting from the issues at hand. You are trying to speak about other players when we should be talking directly about the disappointments raised.

Do you believe that Waynes lived up to being the 11th player taking in his draft class?
Do you believe Barr has lived up to being the 9th player taken overall in his draft class?
If you were the GM and both guys were available in this draft and you had the 9th and 11th pick are you taking them.

These are three simple questions I would like answered.
Last edited by YikesVikes on Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:47 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:43 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:00 am
Waynes was a low value pick. He gave us solid CB play for 3 seasons and then was gone. Good value for a 2nd round pick, not 11th overall and he is doing nothing for the Vikings to make us better atm.
Bradford was a bad value trade. The worst full time starting QB of the 2010's who went 7-8 as a starter for us and then got hurt.
Hughes is a bust.
Bradbury is a below average center two years into his career that was taken 18th overall. Center is a position many teams fill in later rounds and to justify being picked that high he needed to be one of the better centers in the NFL, not a developmental guy. A bad pick.
Gladney was terrible in his rookie season. Way to premature to call him a bust right now, but based on one season he is trending towards bust status.

That is how the Vikings have used their last 5 1st round picks. They hit a homerun with Buffalo's first and got JJ, but the above use of the team's most valuable asset to get better each season, along with poor allocation of cap space is why this team went 7-9 and struggled to beat the Jacksonville Jaguars.
I don't have stats to back this up, but you don't put the Vikings recent 1st round picks into context.

My strong suspicion is that most teams have similar outcomes as the Vikings have with their first round picks. They will be able to point to some successful picks, average picks, and outright busts in the 1st round over the same time period. Some will have more hits and some more misses and maybe some will produce largely average outcomes, but without that context and based on what you've posted one would conclude that Spielman must be terrible.

Spielman isn't that bad. He's probably about average overall in terms of his drafts and the players he's acquired. The Vikings have notable talent on both sides of the football, whether that talent was acquired in the 1st round or not.
Hard to do so when we have more 1st rounders than anyone. However, I don't think most teams have missed on 4 out of 7 1st rounders... AND gave one away for Sam Bradford.... And just gave a 2nd away for a 6 game rental.
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