Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by fiestavike » Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:50 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:31 pm
halfgiz wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:13 pm
Another year and another OC. How often do you see that happen?
Kubs tired of Zimmer already?
That's why the age of defensive coaches are at an end. An offense and QB needs a consistent offensive philosophy. Kirk is on his 5-6th OC in 5 years. We need to move on from Zimmer and higher an offensive coach. You can change defenses every year but changing offenses annually, is a bad idea.
Not quite. Stefanski and Kubiak worked hand in hand, which means kirk did finally get some consistency and the offense improved. Klint Kubiak allows that continuity to remain.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:26 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:17 am
Kapp....
Andre Patterson
The problem with him as co-DC is that he's not the D-line coach, where he excels. I hated this move when it was made, and I still hate it.
Patterson is still the DL coach. He’s listed as co-DC and DL coach. And I’m sure he’s still quite involved with the DL.
Adam Zimmer
I don't care. Honestly, I don't get how a guy who plays football at Trinity University can immediately get a coaching job in the NFL with the Saints UNLESS he's got a dad who's buddies with Sean Payton. Most kids in his position MIGHT get a grad assistant job at some little school. Freaking nepotism. Co-defensive coordinator? Whatever. Let's put it this way ... when you hear the talking heads opining about the next hotshot young DC, you never hear the name Adam Zimmer mentioned.
Again, I don’t think the guys with the title DC really matter. Zimmer is calling the shots. If we all think zimmer has a leash on the offense and kubiaks play calling, what do you think he really allows these guys to do with HIS defense? I’ll tell you, absolutely nothing. That’s why Adam is still coaching LBs and Patterson is still coaching DL.

I mean look at George edwards. “He coached some very good defenses” but did he? My opinion? No he didn’t. He was a puppet with a title. He goes to Dallas who had a loaded front 7 and their defense was terrible. George edwards was a no-name and will continue to be a no-name. That’s like front offices thinking Adam Gase was an offensive guru. The only reason anyone knows who Adam Gase is is because he had Peyton manning (who could practically call his own offense no problem). George edwards was no different than Gase and Dallas got fooled by it. Just like the dolphins and jets got fooled by Gase. Those weren’t George edwards defenses. George edwards didn’t build those defenses. He was a placeholder for a title that did what zimmer asked.
Gary Kubiak
I agree with you that he's been handcuffed by Mike Zimmer. And it makes no sense. It's not as though Kubiak doesn't understand the importance of a running game. He's ALWAYS had a great running game, wherever he's coached. But with Zimmer, it's not the amount of rushing attempts, it's that our tendencies are obvious. We always, ALWAYS run on 2nd and long and 3rd and short. I believe that's Zimmer's influence. Also, you're right ... with our weapons, we should be throwing more than we do. Now that we have tight ends who can actually get down the field, things could be even more explosive. Let Kubiak do his job. He knows what he's doing.
Completely agree
Mike Zimmer
I'm ready for a change. It's not gonna happen, but I'm ready. He did a good job on one hand of getting the team to stay connected to the season when they were 1-5. But for much of the season, the defense was just obliterated. For me, the issue is overall and offensive philosophy. He's stuck in 1992. This year, Kirk Cousins finished the season with 516 pass attempts, which was 15th most in the NFL. In 1992, that would have ranked second. The game has changed. Zimmer hasn't. Not everyone will agree. That's cool. And like I've said, the Wilfs value continuity over everything. Zimmer isn't going anywhere.
Oh I agree there will be no change and I’m ready as well. You make some good points here. I like the 1992 stat.
Rick Spielman
He's a puppet. He's supposed to be in charge, but I don't believe he is. Zimmer is. Mike Zimmer gets whoever he wants in the draft. Even this year, when we drafted one of the best rookies to ever play the game, we still took a corner in the first. You can't convince me that Zimmer didn't pull those strings. I don't hate him as GM, and I don't love him. Again, when the best GMs in the NFL are mentioned, Spielman's name doesn't come up. But yet again, he's not going anywhere. The Wilfs love the guy.
I disagree here. I think he might be a puppet to an extent but go back and watch the draft footage of when they were selecting Jefferson this year. You heard zimmer say (in somewhat of an annoyed tone), “what corner is going to be there?”. Spielman responded with “the corners will be sitting there” and Spielman proceeded to draft Jefferson. Hell of a move. Now answer me this....if this was a Bill O’Brien situation and zimmer had all the control, do you think we would’ve drafted Justin Jefferson at 22? I’ll answer....not a chance in hell. That would’ve 1000% been a corner. Video link below:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssp ... erson/amp/

Point is, Spielman might bow down to him here and there, but I don’t think that’s always the case. Spielman can spot talent, and he spotted that one and didn’t give a damn what anyone else wanted.

As for mentioning who the top GMs in the league are, there really is no tell. And what I mean by that is I remember seeing rankings back in 2013-2014 somewhere in there and they had Chris Ballard in the top 5 (old colts GM). Simply because he drafted Andrew luck. Now last I checked, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to have the #1 overall pick and Andrew luck coming out and taking him. Yet Ballard continued to fail at building any sort of worthwhile defense and was then fired.

Or someone like Howie Roseman. The Eagles win the SB, they have a loaded roster even though their backs are against the wall cap wise, etc. And now look at Roseman. He’s on the verge of being the laughing stock of the league. They look like they are heading into a much worse situation cap wise, performance wise and injury wise with Carson Wentz. He clearly has no control over his big headed d-bag of a head coach after this weeks debacle with Jalen Hurts, he passed on the best rookie WR the league has seen ever in Justin Jefferson for Jalen Reagor and has pretty much struck out on 3 straight draft classes since the SB. He might’ve hit on hurts but that remains to be seen. And to top it all off, the Eagles won 4 games this year in a historically bad division. So someone that was once declared the “best GM in the league”, just 3 years later is now flirting with being a flat out embarrassment.

Spielman has had his “misses”. But when you look at draft classes like 2015 and this year, they are no joke. Then you add in getting guys like Dalvin with no first rounder, Bradbury, O’Neill, irv, mattison, Conklin, etc. you’re going to have a roster that can and will be compete. This year was a little different story given injuries and such. But again, this team still competed with a defense that shouldn’t even be allowed on a field. A practice squad/scout team defense. I remember you saying when the Vikings were 1-5 that you didn’t see a difference between them and the jets and that the only difference is the Vikings have one more win. And what did I keep saying? There is too much talent in this roster, they are nowhere near the jets. Literally MILES away from being that bad and that’s WITH a practice squad defense. This team could’ve very well been a 2 win team with that defense. But again, the talent is there. And that’s without guys like Barr, kendricks, hunter and Pierce. And a slew of rookies corners starting. The only legitimate players left on that defense were our two safeties. And we STILL won 7 games. That says something. That says the GM is still putting enough talent on this roster that when his entire defense gets completely wiped out, they can still win games.

I’m honestly excited for this years draft and see what Spielman pulls off. Especially with 11 picks already coming our way again and gaining everyone back from injury and opt outs.

I don’t head into draft night thinking “shi* what’s this idiot going to do?”. Many fans of teams cannot say that. Granted I’d like him to address guard and DT more than he does but overall, I think Spielman is a very good GM. I just Zimmer is past his old school days but refuses to let them go.
The greatest rookie WR ever? Are you serious? Also, you neglect to mention the fortune of draft picks he squandered in the last 7 years. He has 4-5 busts in the first round in the last 7 years. Let’s not even talk about the decision to draft 15 players in a COVID year. Check our roster how many of those late round gems are on the roster. You point to the Dalvins and Jefferson’s but most teams have those type of players. Every team has a couple of players that the GM hit out the park. The problem is depth. We have no depth. Any injuries and we are screwed. Lose AT or JJ and we are playing guys that should be on a practice squad at WR. Meanwhile the packers lose the best LT in the game and Rogers is still throwing 3+ TDS a game. Saints lose Brees and still win several games. Forget about bragging about the 5 players he gets right. Let’s focus on the 35 or so that he can’t seem to find.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by Mothman » Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:31 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:01 pm
It's probably splitting hairs, but I go with the former.

From what we've read about Zimmer's demeanor and personality around the Vikings facility on a daily basis, I have a hard time envisioning him being kum-ba-ya with anybody.

Then again, I'm just a crusty old fool whose perpetual optimism is beginning to fade.
As a crusty old fool whose optimism about the Vikings has been fading for years, I can relate.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by Mothman » Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:43 am

YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:26 am
The greatest rookie WR ever? Are you serious? Also, you neglect to mention the fortune of draft picks he squandered in the last 7 years. He has 4-5 busts in the first round in the last 7 years. Let’s not even talk about the decision to draft 15 players in a COVID year. Check our roster how many of those late round gems are on the roster. You point to the Dalvins and Jefferson’s but most teams have those type of players. Every team has a couple of players that the GM hit out the park. The problem is depth. We have no depth. Any injuries and we are screwed. Lose AT or JJ and we are playing guys that should be on a practice squad at WR. Meanwhile the packers lose the best LT in the game and Rogers is still throwing 3+ TDS a game. Saints lose Brees and still win several games. Forget about bragging about the 5 players he gets right. Let’s focus on the 35 or so that he can’t seem to find.
Well said.

I wouldn't be too eager to declare this draft class a triumph either. Jefferson was terrific, clearly a good pick. Cleveland had a nice season but let's see if he can sustain it (obviously Jefferson will have to do likewise). The corners, Wonnum, etc. were nothing special. Let's see how they develop and let's remember, the defense was awful. Naturally, inexperience was part of that but awful is awful. For those players to be considered draft successes, they'll need to do more than start. There's potential there but let's see how this draft looks a couple more years down the road. Hopefully, it will look great.

By the way, remember the 2013 defense, the one that led to Zimmer replacing Leslie Frazier? That defense was bad, absolutely no doubt about it. They gave up 480 points and 6,362 yards that season.

The 2020 Vikings allowed 475 points and 6,292 yards. In other words, they were 5 points and 70 yards better than the 2013 Vikes. That's it. Unlike Frazier, it appears Zimmer will survive it. Spielman will survive it too. They don't even appear to be in danger of replacement.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:34 am

He clearly has no control over his big headed d-bag of a head coach after this weeks debacle with Jalen Hurts,
I wish our coach had had the balls to pull Cousins and lose us the Detroit game.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by RandyMoss84 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:00 pm

I am not sure if this is the thread for coaching changes but I just saw that special teams coordinator Maalouf is not coming back
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by Thaumaturgist » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:07 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:00 pm
I am not sure if this is the thread for coaching changes but I just saw that special teams coordinator Maalouf is not coming back
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by RandyMoss84 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:27 pm

Thaumaturgist wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:07 pm
RandyMoss84 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:00 pm
I am not sure if this is the thread for coaching changes but I just saw that special teams coordinator Maalouf is not coming back
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
Yeah, pretty much, Maalouf was awful! I hope Vikings will find a good replacement and special teams will get better
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by CharVike » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:43 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:31 pm
halfgiz wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:13 pm
Another year and another OC. How often do you see that happen?
Kubs tired of Zimmer already?
That's why the age of defensive coaches are at an end. An offense and QB needs a consistent offensive philosophy. Kirk is on his 5-6th OC in 5 years. We need to move on from Zimmer and higher an offensive coach. You can change defenses every year but changing offenses annually, is a bad idea.
Then how did old man Brady leave his consistent philosophy and still play at a high level. I've seen us with O coaches and D Green comes to mind. He didn't give a crap about his D and that always kept us out of a Super Bowl. Even with a world breaking O. Same thing happened to Dan Fouts. He was great but his D blew and he never made. A team needs balance. But you better have a D or your done. Balance is the key. Like the old Jimmy Johnson teams. Do it all well.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:53 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:58 am

Forgot about their dual roles. Thanks for correcting me.

Here's the thing. What they do on game day doesn't matter to me. For sure, Mike Zimmer is in charge on game day. I'm more concerned about how they spend their time during the week. I would imagine that Patterson and Adam Zimmer do the sh!t jobs within the DC role that Zimmer doesn't want to do, which takes them away from their roles as position coaches. Or worse, they actually do lots of DC stuff during the week and have even less time for their position players. In general the "co-this, position-that" titles are goofy and inefficient. Mike Zimmer would do well to hire an actual DC, let him do his job, and step back so he can see the big picture.
Funny we were talking about this last night because look what Zim said word for word today....
Question: How'd it work having co-defensive coordinators?

Zim's answer: "It was fine, I do a lot of that work over there anyway.
Well if I didnt hit the nail on the head with that one lol. But yes I agree I'm guessing he's giving them the bitc* jobs. The downfall is, Zim will never let anyone else control his defense no matter how long he is here. That guy could be home on quarantine and he'd somehow get his phone hooked up with Barr's helmet calling the plays.

You're probably right. I guess my feeling on Spielman is that I don't buy into the whole "shared vision" thing he keeps putting out. I know he has to say that for PR purposes, but there's no way he and Zimmer are simpatico on everything. The example you cite with Jefferson is a perfect example. If the Vikings fired Zimmer and kept Spielman, I wouldn't be upset. But if they fired both, I'd still snore loudly at night (allegedly, according to my wife).

Also, I'd already seen the video you cite, but after re-watching, I think some context is needed here. The video starts with Spielman saying there will be corners at 25, and THEN Zimmer asks, "What corners are available?" That's when Spielman says, "They'll be sitting there." But Zimmer is just as excited to get Justin Jefferson as Spielman is. My problem is simple ... why is Zimmer asking, "What corners are available?" Shouldn't he know? I mean, ask anybody on this board, and they could probably answer that question. Shouldn't the head coach know such basic things?
Yeah Zim said "what corner is going to be there?" after Spielman said that. I agree, 1.) he should know and 2.) to me, he sounded very annoyed. Almost in the sense of saying "there wont be one there Rick, we need to take one at 22". Granted I'm speculating but to me, he didnt sound enthralled by any means that they werent taking one at 22. He was excited for Jefferson but I also dont know how early in the draft that segment took place where he questioned not taking a corner at 22. I'm guessing it was earlier on in the draft. I'm also guessing Zim and nobody for that matter thought Jefferson would be sitting there. Especially with Philly in front of them. Rumor has it, Spielman tried trading up more than once to get Jefferson and couldnt get a bite. They thought Jefferson was a goner to Philly. But I reallyyyyy do wonder that if we're on the clock and Jefferson is sitting there as well as all the corners, who does Zim take if he was in full control. I'd still have to place my bet on corner. Especially after hearing his tone earlier in the clip. No less he's going into a season with no Rhodes, Waynes or Alexander. I can see Zim thinking "well we have Thielen, he's good enough, we dont have any corners so we need one ASAP".

Again, a lot of speculation on my part, but I'd be willing to bet that much of what I said is indeed true.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:09 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:26 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:17 am
Kapp....



Patterson is still the DL coach. He’s listed as co-DC and DL coach. And I’m sure he’s still quite involved with the DL.



Again, I don’t think the guys with the title DC really matter. Zimmer is calling the shots. If we all think zimmer has a leash on the offense and kubiaks play calling, what do you think he really allows these guys to do with HIS defense? I’ll tell you, absolutely nothing. That’s why Adam is still coaching LBs and Patterson is still coaching DL.

I mean look at George edwards. “He coached some very good defenses” but did he? My opinion? No he didn’t. He was a puppet with a title. He goes to Dallas who had a loaded front 7 and their defense was terrible. George edwards was a no-name and will continue to be a no-name. That’s like front offices thinking Adam Gase was an offensive guru. The only reason anyone knows who Adam Gase is is because he had Peyton manning (who could practically call his own offense no problem). George edwards was no different than Gase and Dallas got fooled by it. Just like the dolphins and jets got fooled by Gase. Those weren’t George edwards defenses. George edwards didn’t build those defenses. He was a placeholder for a title that did what zimmer asked.



Completely agree



Oh I agree there will be no change and I’m ready as well. You make some good points here. I like the 1992 stat.



I disagree here. I think he might be a puppet to an extent but go back and watch the draft footage of when they were selecting Jefferson this year. You heard zimmer say (in somewhat of an annoyed tone), “what corner is going to be there?”. Spielman responded with “the corners will be sitting there” and Spielman proceeded to draft Jefferson. Hell of a move. Now answer me this....if this was a Bill O’Brien situation and zimmer had all the control, do you think we would’ve drafted Justin Jefferson at 22? I’ll answer....not a chance in hell. That would’ve 1000% been a corner. Video link below:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssp ... erson/amp/

Point is, Spielman might bow down to him here and there, but I don’t think that’s always the case. Spielman can spot talent, and he spotted that one and didn’t give a damn what anyone else wanted.

As for mentioning who the top GMs in the league are, there really is no tell. And what I mean by that is I remember seeing rankings back in 2013-2014 somewhere in there and they had Chris Ballard in the top 5 (old colts GM). Simply because he drafted Andrew luck. Now last I checked, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to have the #1 overall pick and Andrew luck coming out and taking him. Yet Ballard continued to fail at building any sort of worthwhile defense and was then fired.

Or someone like Howie Roseman. The Eagles win the SB, they have a loaded roster even though their backs are against the wall cap wise, etc. And now look at Roseman. He’s on the verge of being the laughing stock of the league. They look like they are heading into a much worse situation cap wise, performance wise and injury wise with Carson Wentz. He clearly has no control over his big headed d-bag of a head coach after this weeks debacle with Jalen Hurts, he passed on the best rookie WR the league has seen ever in Justin Jefferson for Jalen Reagor and has pretty much struck out on 3 straight draft classes since the SB. He might’ve hit on hurts but that remains to be seen. And to top it all off, the Eagles won 4 games this year in a historically bad division. So someone that was once declared the “best GM in the league”, just 3 years later is now flirting with being a flat out embarrassment.

Spielman has had his “misses”. But when you look at draft classes like 2015 and this year, they are no joke. Then you add in getting guys like Dalvin with no first rounder, Bradbury, O’Neill, irv, mattison, Conklin, etc. you’re going to have a roster that can and will be compete. This year was a little different story given injuries and such. But again, this team still competed with a defense that shouldn’t even be allowed on a field. A practice squad/scout team defense. I remember you saying when the Vikings were 1-5 that you didn’t see a difference between them and the jets and that the only difference is the Vikings have one more win. And what did I keep saying? There is too much talent in this roster, they are nowhere near the jets. Literally MILES away from being that bad and that’s WITH a practice squad defense. This team could’ve very well been a 2 win team with that defense. But again, the talent is there. And that’s without guys like Barr, kendricks, hunter and Pierce. And a slew of rookies corners starting. The only legitimate players left on that defense were our two safeties. And we STILL won 7 games. That says something. That says the GM is still putting enough talent on this roster that when his entire defense gets completely wiped out, they can still win games.

I’m honestly excited for this years draft and see what Spielman pulls off. Especially with 11 picks already coming our way again and gaining everyone back from injury and opt outs.

I don’t head into draft night thinking “shi* what’s this idiot going to do?”. Many fans of teams cannot say that. Granted I’d like him to address guard and DT more than he does but overall, I think Spielman is a very good GM. I just Zimmer is past his old school days but refuses to let them go.
The greatest rookie WR ever? Are you serious? Also, you neglect to mention the fortune of draft picks he squandered in the last 7 years. He has 4-5 busts in the first round in the last 7 years. Let’s not even talk about the decision to draft 15 players in a COVID year. Check our roster how many of those late round gems are on the roster. You point to the Dalvins and Jefferson’s but most teams have those type of players. Every team has a couple of players that the GM hit out the park. The problem is depth. We have no depth. Any injuries and we are screwed. Lose AT or JJ and we are playing guys that should be on a practice squad at WR. Meanwhile the packers lose the best LT in the game and Rogers is still throwing 3+ TDS a game. Saints lose Brees and still win several games. Forget about bragging about the 5 players he gets right. Let’s focus on the 35 or so that he can’t seem to find.
Sorry left out a word, greatest rookie WR SEASON ever. Yes that is indeed true and it is now in the record books if you dont believe me.

And 4-5 busts in the first round the last 7 years?? Huh?

2020- Jefferson and Gladney (no busts there)
2019- Bradbury (I wouldnt call him a bust because he's an excellent run blocker. Pass blocking needs work still)
2018- Hughes (with a mixture of injuries and inconsistent play, sure we can say bust)
2017- no first rounder, gets Dalvin in the 2nd
2016- Treadwell (bust)
2015- Waynes (far from a bust IMO. Everyone wanted to say that early on but he was arguably our most consistent CB the last two years and elite vs the run. No less a bust doesnt land $40+ million on the open market when his contract is up)
2014- Barr and Teddy (Barr is not a bust and Teddy....well we all know what happened there, a freak knee injury is nothing Rick Spielman can predict or prevent)

So tell me where you're coming up with 4-5 first round busts? I listed 2 and you can say what you want but that's exactly what it is....two.

As for your depth argument, I disagree. First of all, no team is loaded with depth. There is no way you have a team of good depth guys. There are going to be weaknesses as well as strengths in certain areas.

QB- no depth
RB- plenty of depth
WR- no depth
TE- plenty of depth
OT- Depth with Hill
Interior OL- no depth
DE- usually always had depth up until this year. Weatherly and Ifeadi were solid depth for quite some time, Robison when Hunter emerged. But when you lose Griff and then on top of it lose Hunter, that's tough for anyone to overcome.
DT- no depth
LB- depth with Wilson
CB- also always had depth up until this year but we also did a complete overhaul in that room
S- I would say no depth but I also have no idea how someone like Josh Metellus would do because Harrison Smith and Harris hardly ever missed time. It was Iloka who was terrible but when he blew his knee out it would have been Metellus and I would've been interested to see how he'd do late in the season with some coaching under his belt

So again, there is depth in certain areas and there is no depth in certain areas. Look across the league, I guarantee you that your positional breakdown for every team would be very similar to mine above or worse.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:11 pm

Mothman wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:43 am
YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:26 am
The greatest rookie WR ever? Are you serious? Also, you neglect to mention the fortune of draft picks he squandered in the last 7 years. He has 4-5 busts in the first round in the last 7 years. Let’s not even talk about the decision to draft 15 players in a COVID year. Check our roster how many of those late round gems are on the roster. You point to the Dalvins and Jefferson’s but most teams have those type of players. Every team has a couple of players that the GM hit out the park. The problem is depth. We have no depth. Any injuries and we are screwed. Lose AT or JJ and we are playing guys that should be on a practice squad at WR. Meanwhile the packers lose the best LT in the game and Rogers is still throwing 3+ TDS a game. Saints lose Brees and still win several games. Forget about bragging about the 5 players he gets right. Let’s focus on the 35 or so that he can’t seem to find.
Well said.

I wouldn't be too eager to declare this draft class a triumph either. Jefferson was terrific, clearly a good pick. Cleveland had a nice season but let's see if he can sustain it (obviously Jefferson will have to do likewise). The corners, Wonnum, etc. were nothing special. Let's see how they develop and let's remember, the defense was awful. Naturally, inexperience was part of that but awful is awful. For those players to be considered draft successes, they'll need to do more than start. There's potential there but let's see how this draft looks a couple more years down the road. Hopefully, it will look great.

By the way, remember the 2013 defense, the one that led to Zimmer replacing Leslie Frazier? That defense was bad, absolutely no doubt about it. They gave up 480 points and 6,362 yards that season.

The 2020 Vikings allowed 475 points and 6,292 yards. In other words, they were 5 points and 70 yards better than the 2013 Vikes. That's it. Unlike Frazier, it appears Zimmer will survive it. Spielman will survive it too. They don't even appear to be in danger of replacement.
In fairness, Cameron Dantzler was PFF's highest-rated CB for the month of December in the entire NFL, not just among rookies. I know it's PFF, which I try hard not to cite as evidence of anything. But it's an indication that our corners did show promise of being good starters down the road. I think with rookies you have to see how they progress, that they're trending in the right direction. It's especially true for corners, which is a seriously hard position to play in the NFL. Most rookie corners get burned early on. I don't think there's any doubt that Dantzler progressed. His problem is staying on the field. Gladney ... well, we'll see. For some reason his tackling, which had been his strength early in the season, took a dump at New Orleans. But the guy competes, which I like.

Our defense truly was horrible this year. Downright embarrassing at times, especially against New Orleans, and to a slightly lesser extent, against the Bears. I think the difference between 2013 and 2020, however, is wins. Most 3-13 coaches don't survive.

Finally, I won't lose any sleep if they fire Rick Spielman. Yes, he's had a few hits in the draft. But his odd propensity to trade backwards makes me absolutely nuts. And some of his player trades are just bizarre. I'm talking about things like giving up a 5th-round pick for Kaare Vedvik. There again, you wonder how much Mike Zimmer and his inherent mistrust of kickers played into that weirdness.

And the Yannick Ngakoue deal. Fine, give up a second-rounder. Reasonable people can argue the validity of that trade. But then to trade him six weeks later for a third? Honestly, it could be argued that if you actually believed you had hope of making the playoffs, that deal sunk it. We needed edge rushers desperately. We had the most anemic pass rush in the NFL ... a TOTAL of 65 QB hits for the season. By contrast, Pittsburgh had 136. Basically, it appears that we had Mike Zimmer going, "We can still make the playoffs" after starting 1-5, and Rick Spielman going, "Nah, we're done." Either that, or Mike Zimmer said, "I don't like this Ngakoue fellow, even though he's the only thing resembling a pass rush."

No matter how you slice it, the entire Ngakoue thing was completely dysfunctional. Fire 'em all.
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YikesVikes
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:57 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:09 pm

Sorry left out a word, greatest rookie WR SEASON ever. Yes that is indeed true and it is now in the record books if you dont believe me.

And 4-5 busts in the first round the last 7 years?? Huh?

2020- Jefferson and Gladney (no busts there)
2019- Bradbury (I wouldnt call him a bust because he's an excellent run blocker. Pass blocking needs work still)
2018- Hughes (with a mixture of injuries and inconsistent play, sure we can say bust)
2017- no first rounder, gets Dalvin in the 2nd
2016- Treadwell (bust)
2015- Waynes (far from a bust IMO. Everyone wanted to say that early on but he was arguably our most consistent CB the last two years and elite vs the run. No less a bust doesnt land $40+ million on the open market when his contract is up)
2014- Barr and Teddy (Barr is not a bust and Teddy....well we all know what happened there, a freak knee injury is nothing Rick Spielman can predict or prevent)

So tell me where you're coming up with 4-5 first round busts? I listed 2 and you can say what you want but that's exactly what it is....two.

As for your depth argument, I disagree. First of all, no team is loaded with depth. There is no way you have a team of good depth guys. There are going to be weaknesses as well as strengths in certain areas.

QB- no depth
RB- plenty of depth
WR- no depth
TE- plenty of depth
OT- Depth with Hill
Interior OL- no depth
DE- usually always had depth up until this year. Weatherly and Ifeadi were solid depth for quite some time, Robison when Hunter emerged. But when you lose Griff and then on top of it lose Hunter, that's tough for anyone to overcome.
DT- no depth
LB- depth with Wilson
CB- also always had depth up until this year but we also did a complete overhaul in that room
S- I would say no depth but I also have no idea how someone like Josh Metellus would do because Harrison Smith and Harris hardly ever missed time. It was Iloka who was terrible but when he blew his knee out it would have been Metellus and I would've been interested to see how he'd do late in the season with some coaching under his belt

So again, there is depth in certain areas and there is no depth in certain areas. Look across the league, I guarantee you that your positional breakdown for every team would be very similar to mine above or worse.
His rookie season isnt better than Moss' He didn't even hit double digit TDs. Moss had 17. No one would consider this season better. Especially since Moss played in an era where the ball wasn't toss as much.

When you are looking over the draft guys you aren't considering where they were drafted. A guy drafted #1 has a different expectation than a guy drafted #31. Lets take a look at that list when we consider where they were drafted.

2020- Jefferson and Gladney - So far so good given draft position.
2019- Bradbury - Not a bust. Not looking like the 18th best guy but not a bust. A disappointment so far.
2018- Hughes - Bust. He's simply not good injuries or not.
2016- Treadwell - Bust
2015- Waynes - Bust - Drafted 11th overall. Has 1 season with 3 ints. The 11th best player should be a game changer. He simple is average at best.
2014- Barr - Bust. Drafted 9th overrall. 9th!!!!! Some guys drafted after him regardless of position
Donald, Fuller, OBJ, Mosley, Zack Martain, Cooks, Lawrence. Barr isn't in any of those guys stratosphere. He is an average LB who only saving grace is pressures, which he gets due to confusion due to the scheme and not individual talent. He has been out performed by Wilson 2 years now. Despite all of our blitzing he has like 15 career sacks. He has never had more than 80 tackles in a season and has 2 career ints. He has only forced 8 fumbles in his 6 (took this year out) year career. He is invisible. In 15 games this season Wilson has 122 tackles. Last year in 6 game started he had 62 tackles. Barr is a bust. We can put almost any decent LB in there and replace him.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:18 pm

I have listed the positions with a critical need in bold. These not only have no depth... we dont even have a player there or lack a quality starter.

I rate 7 out of 11 positions as lacking depth.
I rate 5 out of 11 positions as critically undermanned.
This doesn't include both PR and KR that is in serious need of upgrades and are possibly the worst in the league.

QB- No depth
RB- plenty of depth
WR- no depth
TE- plenty of depth
OT- Hill is a quality backup at LT. He is poor at RT. Depth nonetheless and I am glad we have him
Interior OL- The cupboard is bare.
DE- We didn't lose Griffen. He was not resigned and we went into the season without him. That's like saying we lost Richardson and that is why DT is so bad. We choose to let him go and not pay him. Instead we invested in TE depth by paying Rudolph 9 million a year for about 300 yards a season. We have no depth here as we do not have a starter on the RDE side.
DT- no depth
LB- depth with Wilson - Wilson is a starter. no depth including Gideon.
CB- You can't keep trying to look back to previous years. We have no depth. We are missing 1 starter. Gladney should be playing the slot permanently and even then, we have to wait and see.
S- No depth. We have backup safety. We are awful there.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:19 pm

Winning in the NFL is easy. You build the trenches and then swing for the fences at QB and skill positions. Spielman's performance in the trenches is either willfully neglectful or incompetence. Both are fireable offenses.
Last edited by YikesVikes on Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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