Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

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Pondering Her Percy
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Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:41 pm

Hey guys, unfortunately this wasnt the season we were hoping for but we're also entering my favorite time of year, the offseason leading up to the draft. I'm going to do a post 2020 review on coaching, positions, etc. I will do it in separate threads

FRONT OFFICE/COACHING

GM Rick Spielman- I'm know some of you like him and some of you dont. You all know that I've always been a fan of his. IMO, he is not the problem by any means. This team is still loaded with talent and Spielman is the person bringing that talent in. He's also given us 27+ draft picks between 2020 and 2021. That's what most teams get in 4 years, we're doing it in 2. Granted, Spielman has had his misses but tell me a GM that hasnt? No less he just nailed this past draft class IMO with another 11-12 picks coming up in the 2021 draft.

HC Mike Zimmer- This year has been a roller coaster for me with Zimmer. During the 1-5 start, I was done with him, sick of the conservative 1992 approach, etc. Then we went on a run and I said to myself "ya know, this team is depleted and he really has them tuned in right now I gotta give it to him.". And then how we finished the season out has me learning hard the other way again. Will Mike Zimmer get fired? No. I can just about guarantee it. Ownership will give him the benefit of the doubt given the defense was depleted and life will go on.....like we're still coaching in 1992. I think the biggest problem with Zimmer right now is I believe he has an EXTREMELY tight leash around the neck of this offense. The Vikings were very much a 2nd half team this year and my reasoning behind it? Mike Zimmer's conservative approach. I think Zimmer was going into to each and every game saying "okay we need to pound the ball and play good defense". Well, when halftime hits and you're in a tight game or down and you realize it's crunch time that's when the leash starts to loosen. This offense is loaded minus the OL. There is no reason to try and hold them back. ESPECIALLY, when you're practically starting a practice squad defense. There is literally 0 aggressiveness in Zim anymore. Offensively or defensively. He has not only became more and more conservative by the year, it's by the day at this point. Everything is predictable, everything is slow paced, there are zero wrinkles, a very vanilla playbook on both sides of the ball, his overall ability to evaluate talent and who should be on the field is pitiful, etc. And to add onto that, his overall game managing is just absolutely terrible. I just feel like this team is capable for so much more but he is holding them back.

OC Gary Kubiak- and the important piece I feel like nobody is talking about....Klint Kubiak. I mentioned his name last year during the offseason and possibly moving up the ranks. Many were down on this idea of him being the OC because "we've never seen him call plays before". Okay? Well this is how guys eventually get their start. Klint has been working under his father since 2016 and coached at the college ranks prior to that. We NEED some young blood in here calling some shots. We know Zim is sticking around. BUT, I think this would also be the perfect time for Gary and his son to sort of "swap roles". Rumors have always swirled about how involved Gary Kubiak wants to be. I think having his son Klint as the OC and Gary overseeing him like he did Stefanski would be the perfect setup for a possible in house head coach down the road. Not that I think Gary isnt a good playcaller because I think he is/was and now is being controlled by Zim. But I really want to see a young gun similar to a Kevin Stefanski take on a bigger role instead of the nursing home stable we currently have as coaches. Keep an eye on that sleeper....Klint Kubiak

Co-DC Andre Patterson/Adam Zimmer- I'm fine leaving this as is for now. #1, I dont believe a DC under Mike Zimmer does jack squat. And #2, this defense was so depleted this year that it's hard to tell if they even did a good job or not.

Overall, I'm fine with our GM but I'm at the end of the road with the HC. Unfortunately, not much is going to change for at least another year or two.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by Husker Vike » Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:47 pm

I for the most part, agree with your post ,but I can't give a complete pass to Spielman. He has to know that we need a dominate O-line to be able to keep Cousins upright, and he has not properly addressed this problem area. I also think that the Wilfs will make no changes in the upcoming year.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by 9man » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:01 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:41 pm

OC Gary Kubiak- and the important piece I feel like nobody is talking about....Klint Kubiak. I mentioned his name last year during the offseason and possibly moving up the ranks. Many were down on this idea of him being the OC because "we've never seen him call plays before". Okay? Well this is how guys eventually get their start. Klint has been working under his father since 2016 and coached at the college ranks prior to that. We NEED some young blood in here calling some shots. We know Zim is sticking around. BUT, I think this would also be the perfect time for Gary and his son to sort of "swap roles". Rumors have always swirled about how involved Gary Kubiak wants to be. I think having his son Klint as the OC and Gary overseeing him like he did Stefanski would be the perfect setup for a possible in house head coach down the road. Not that I think Gary isnt a good playcaller because I think he is/was and now is being controlled by Zim. But I really want to see a young gun similar to a Kevin Stefanski take on a bigger role instead of the nursing home stable we currently have as coaches. Keep an eye on that sleeper....Klint Kubiak
Just read on Profootball Talk, Gary Kubiak is retiring. Another year another OC.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by halfgiz » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:13 pm

Another year and another OC. How often do you see that happen?
Kubs tired of Zimmer already?
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:31 pm

halfgiz wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:13 pm
Another year and another OC. How often do you see that happen?
Kubs tired of Zimmer already?
That's why the age of defensive coaches are at an end. An offense and QB needs a consistent offensive philosophy. Kirk is on his 5-6th OC in 5 years. We need to move on from Zimmer and higher an offensive coach. You can change defenses every year but changing offenses annually, is a bad idea.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:45 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:41 pm
Hey guys, unfortunately this wasnt the season we were hoping for but we're also entering my favorite time of year, the offseason leading up to the draft. I'm going to do a post 2020 review on coaching, positions, etc. I will do it in separate threads

FRONT OFFICE/COACHING

GM Rick Spielman- I'm know some of you like him and some of you dont. You all know that I've always been a fan of his. IMO, he is not the problem by any means. This team is still loaded with talent and Spielman is the person bringing that talent in. He's also given us 27+ draft picks between 2020 and 2021. That's what most teams get in 4 years, we're doing it in 2. Granted, Spielman has had his misses but tell me a GM that hasnt? No less he just nailed this past draft class IMO with another 11-12 picks coming up in the 2021 draft.

HC Mike Zimmer- This year has been a roller coaster for me with Zimmer. During the 1-5 start, I was done with him, sick of the conservative 1992 approach, etc. Then we went on a run and I said to myself "ya know, this team is depleted and he really has them tuned in right now I gotta give it to him.". And then how we finished the season out has me learning hard the other way again. Will Mike Zimmer get fired? No. I can just about guarantee it. Ownership will give him the benefit of the doubt given the defense was depleted and life will go on.....like we're still coaching in 1992. I think the biggest problem with Zimmer right now is I believe he has an EXTREMELY tight leash around the neck of this offense. The Vikings were very much a 2nd half team this year and my reasoning behind it? Mike Zimmer's conservative approach. I think Zimmer was going into to each and every game saying "okay we need to pound the ball and play good defense". Well, when halftime hits and you're in a tight game or down and you realize it's crunch time that's when the leash starts to loosen. This offense is loaded minus the OL. There is no reason to try and hold them back. ESPECIALLY, when you're practically starting a practice squad defense. There is literally 0 aggressiveness in Zim anymore. Offensively or defensively. He has not only became more and more conservative by the year, it's by the day at this point. Everything is predictable, everything is slow paced, there are zero wrinkles, a very vanilla playbook on both sides of the ball, his overall ability to evaluate talent and who should be on the field is pitiful, etc. And to add onto that, his overall game managing is just absolutely terrible. I just feel like this team is capable for so much more but he is holding them back.

OC Gary Kubiak- and the important piece I feel like nobody is talking about....Klint Kubiak. I mentioned his name last year during the offseason and possibly moving up the ranks. Many were down on this idea of him being the OC because "we've never seen him call plays before". Okay? Well this is how guys eventually get their start. Klint has been working under his father since 2016 and coached at the college ranks prior to that. We NEED some young blood in here calling some shots. We know Zim is sticking around. BUT, I think this would also be the perfect time for Gary and his son to sort of "swap roles". Rumors have always swirled about how involved Gary Kubiak wants to be. I think having his son Klint as the OC and Gary overseeing him like he did Stefanski would be the perfect setup for a possible in house head coach down the road. Not that I think Gary isnt a good playcaller because I think he is/was and now is being controlled by Zim. But I really want to see a young gun similar to a Kevin Stefanski take on a bigger role instead of the nursing home stable we currently have as coaches. Keep an eye on that sleeper....Klint Kubiak

Co-DC Andre Patterson/Adam Zimmer- I'm fine leaving this as is for now. #1, I dont believe a DC under Mike Zimmer does jack squat. And #2, this defense was so depleted this year that it's hard to tell if they even did a good job or not.

Overall, I'm fine with our GM but I'm at the end of the road with the HC. Unfortunately, not much is going to change for at least another year or two.
I'll start at the end.

Andre Patterson
The problem with him as co-DC is that he's not the D-line coach, where he excels. I hated this move when it was made, and I still hate it.

Adam Zimmer
I don't care. Honestly, I don't get how a guy who plays football at Trinity University can immediately get a coaching job in the NFL with the Saints UNLESS he's got a dad who's buddies with Sean Payton. Most kids in his position MIGHT get a grad assistant job at some little school. Freaking nepotism. Co-defensive coordinator? Whatever. Let's put it this way ... when you hear the talking heads opining about the next hotshot young DC, you never hear the name Adam Zimmer mentioned.

Gary Kubiak
I agree with you that he's been handcuffed by Mike Zimmer. And it makes no sense. It's not as though Kubiak doesn't understand the importance of a running game. He's ALWAYS had a great running game, wherever he's coached. But with Zimmer, it's not the amount of rushing attempts, it's that our tendencies are obvious. We always, ALWAYS run on 2nd and long and 3rd and short. I believe that's Zimmer's influence. Also, you're right ... with our weapons, we should be throwing more than we do. Now that we have tight ends who can actually get down the field, things could be even more explosive. Let Kubiak do his job. He knows what he's doing.

Mike Zimmer
I'm ready for a change. It's not gonna happen, but I'm ready. He did a good job on one hand of getting the team to stay connected to the season when they were 1-5. But for much of the season, the defense was just obliterated. For me, the issue is overall and offensive philosophy. He's stuck in 1992. This year, Kirk Cousins finished the season with 516 pass attempts, which was 15th most in the NFL. In 1992, that would have ranked second. The game has changed. Zimmer hasn't. Not everyone will agree. That's cool. And like I've said, the Wilfs value continuity over everything. Zimmer isn't going anywhere.

Rick Spielman
He's a puppet. He's supposed to be in charge, but I don't believe he is. Zimmer is. Mike Zimmer gets whoever he wants in the draft. Even this year, when we drafted one of the best rookies to ever play the game, we still took a corner in the first. You can't convince me that Zimmer didn't pull those strings. I don't hate him as GM, and I don't love him. Again, when the best GMs in the NFL are mentioned, Spielman's name doesn't come up. But yet again, he's not going anywhere. The Wilfs love the guy.

Bottom line: If we're going to contend for a Super Bowl, it's going to be with these guys. The only one that is questionable is Kubiak, who hasn't publicly declared whether he'll be back next year. He has said that he doesn't care to be a head coach anymore and enjoys working directly with the offense, breaking down film, etc. Don't know what that means for him staying in Minnesota. Beyond that, I don't see a whole lot of changes outside of Marwan Maalouf, who pretty much HAS to be gone after the disaster that were our special teams. If not for the L.A. Chargers, we easily would have been the worst in the league.

EDIT: Well, that shows how quickly things can change. Kubiak is retiring. Don't blame the man. I'd retire if I had a coach who made me run a race wearing lead shoes.
Last edited by J. Kapp 11 on Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by psjordan » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:48 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:41 pm
I think having his son Klint as the OC and Gary overseeing him like he did Stefanski would be the perfect setup for a possible in house head coach down the road. Not that I think Gary isnt a good playcaller because I think he is/was and now is being controlled by Zim. But I really want to see a young gun similar to a Kevin Stefanski take on a bigger role instead of the nursing home stable we currently have as coaches. Keep an eye on that sleeper....Klint Kubiak
Well now that Gary is retiring it may change your mind, but my one word summation of the above is "ick".

I'm curious - what part of the improvement in Kirk Cousins' game not only do you see, but that you attribute to Klint? I don't catch every presser or quote, but I've literally never heard Cousins even mention his name, much less giving Klint any credit for helping him improve.

I don't want to boil down the coaches to "you either stand out as an excellent coach or you suck", but I do recall some of Cousins' quotes early in the year about his struggles at the time and his comment was something along the lines of "well, the coaches told me I have to get better so I'll have to get better".

If we are going for a virgin OC, I'd MUCH MUCH prefer someone that has had (at a bare minimum) recognizable success being a QB coach.

I'm really uncomfortable with Zim's management style if half of what I've read is true. IMO he should be fired ASAP just for that, disregarding his head coaching gaffs. Zim may be a wonderful DC, and it could certainly be that younger coaches like Klint just get stifled by the "old crusty guy". I don't know.

But I've seen zero evidence of wild amounts of creativity and coaching prowess being throttled by Zim. I have seen several players frustrated beyond belief by our play calls however.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:49 pm

I think Anthony Lynn makes so much sense here.

1. Former RB.
2. Has a history of strong RB play (Bills lead league in rushing under him. Jets lead league in rushing under him)
3. Former Head Coach. Zimmer loves a OC that can be a HC on their side of the ball
4. Wants to play physical football (i.e run the ball)
5. Is not too strong a personality.

Most importantly he is a great coach. Dude lead the Chargers to a 12-4 record in a division with Mahomes and the Chiefs. He has had two bad seasons but those Chargers teams have been devastated by injuries and playing with a Rookie QB. Would love to have him but we will probably only have him for a year or so.
Last edited by YikesVikes on Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:52 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:49 pm
I think Anthony Lynn makes so much sense here.
1. Former RB.
2. Has a history of strong RB play (Bills lead league in rushing under him. Jets lead league in rushing under him)
3. Former Head Coach. Zimmer loves a OC that can be a HC on their side of the ball
4. Wants to play physical football ( i.e run the ball)
5. Is not too strong a personality.
And he's available.

Not only that, he coached a rookie who threw for 4,000 yards. Maybe he isn't TOO stuck in the running game.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by YikesVikes » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:01 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:52 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:49 pm
I think Anthony Lynn makes so much sense here.
1. Former RB.
2. Has a history of strong RB play (Bills lead league in rushing under him. Jets lead league in rushing under him)
3. Former Head Coach. Zimmer loves a OC that can be a HC on their side of the ball
4. Wants to play physical football ( i.e run the ball)
5. Is not too strong a personality.
And he's available.

Not only that, he coached a rookie who threw for 4,000 yards. Maybe he isn't TOO stuck in the running game.
I think a lot of that had to do with their starting RB being out. Replaced the running game with more dumpoffs (although eckler is a pass catcher as well)
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by Mothman » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:35 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:45 pm
Adam Zimmer
I don't care. Honestly, I don't get how a guy who plays football at Trinity University can immediately get a coaching job in the NFL with the Saints UNLESS he's got a dad who's buddies with Sean Payton. Most kids in his position MIGHT get a grad assistant job at some little school. Freaking nepotism. Co-defensive coordinator? Whatever. Let's put it this way ... when you hear the talking heads opining about the next hotshot young DC, you never hear the name Adam Zimmer mentioned
Well said. I never liked this hire and I've hated the obvious nepotism on the team under Zimmer.
Rick Spielman
He's a puppet. He's supposed to be in charge, but I don't believe he is. Zimmer is. Mike Zimmer gets whoever he wants in the draft. Even this year, when we drafted one of the best rookies to ever play the game, we still took a corner in the first. You can't convince me that Zimmer didn't pull those strings. I don't hate him as GM, and I don't love him. Again, when the best GMs in the NFL are mentioned, Spielman's name doesn't come up. But yet again, he's not going anywhere. The Wilfs love the guy.
I think the question here is: puppet or partner? Was Zimmer pulling those strings or are he and Spielman simply on the same philosophical page? I lean toward the latter explanation.

Of course it's impossible to tell if Spielman talks like this because they share a vision for the team or just because it's the best "face" to put forward publicly:

https://www.vikings.com/news/presser-po ... are-vision
"When Coach Zim' came and we hired him as our head coach, we had a vision of how we wanted to build this team," Spielman said. "I know this year we have a lot of new faces that are coming into the organization, a lot of new players, a totally different challenge because the coaches haven't been able to work with these players until this time when we're technically kind of opening up training camp. But I think it's sticking to your principles, sticking to everything that you believe in on how you build a winning culture.

"He's talked about it numerous times, from the type of players that we want to bring in that are smart, very passionate, high-character guys off the field," Spielman added. "But also I think it's not only the players, but there's gotta be that culture with the coaching staff, there's gotta be that culture with everybody under the football operations umbrella, and when you can bring all that together with the same goals, the same common vision, I think that's where you hopefully will make the breakthrough."
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:01 pm

Mothman wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:35 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:45 pm
Adam Zimmer
I don't care. Honestly, I don't get how a guy who plays football at Trinity University can immediately get a coaching job in the NFL with the Saints UNLESS he's got a dad who's buddies with Sean Payton. Most kids in his position MIGHT get a grad assistant job at some little school. Freaking nepotism. Co-defensive coordinator? Whatever. Let's put it this way ... when you hear the talking heads opining about the next hotshot young DC, you never hear the name Adam Zimmer mentioned
Well said. I never liked this hire and I've hated the obvious nepotism on the team under Zimmer.
Rick Spielman
He's a puppet. He's supposed to be in charge, but I don't believe he is. Zimmer is. Mike Zimmer gets whoever he wants in the draft. Even this year, when we drafted one of the best rookies to ever play the game, we still took a corner in the first. You can't convince me that Zimmer didn't pull those strings. I don't hate him as GM, and I don't love him. Again, when the best GMs in the NFL are mentioned, Spielman's name doesn't come up. But yet again, he's not going anywhere. The Wilfs love the guy.
I think the question here is: puppet or partner? Was Zimmer pulling those strings or are he and Spielman simply on the same philosophical page? I lean toward the latter explanation.

Of course it's impossible to tell if Spielman talks like this because they share a vision for the team or just because it's the best "face" to put forward publicly:

https://www.vikings.com/news/presser-po ... are-vision
"When Coach Zim' came and we hired him as our head coach, we had a vision of how we wanted to build this team," Spielman said. "I know this year we have a lot of new faces that are coming into the organization, a lot of new players, a totally different challenge because the coaches haven't been able to work with these players until this time when we're technically kind of opening up training camp. But I think it's sticking to your principles, sticking to everything that you believe in on how you build a winning culture.

"He's talked about it numerous times, from the type of players that we want to bring in that are smart, very passionate, high-character guys off the field," Spielman added. "But also I think it's not only the players, but there's gotta be that culture with the coaching staff, there's gotta be that culture with everybody under the football operations umbrella, and when you can bring all that together with the same goals, the same common vision, I think that's where you hopefully will make the breakthrough."
It's probably splitting hairs, but I go with the former.

From what we've read about Zimmer's demeanor and personality around the Vikings facility on a daily basis, I have a hard time envisioning him being kum-ba-ya with anybody.

Then again, I'm just a crusty old fool whose perpetual optimism is beginning to fade.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:17 am

Kapp....
Andre Patterson
The problem with him as co-DC is that he's not the D-line coach, where he excels. I hated this move when it was made, and I still hate it.
Patterson is still the DL coach. He’s listed as co-DC and DL coach. And I’m sure he’s still quite involved with the DL.
Adam Zimmer
I don't care. Honestly, I don't get how a guy who plays football at Trinity University can immediately get a coaching job in the NFL with the Saints UNLESS he's got a dad who's buddies with Sean Payton. Most kids in his position MIGHT get a grad assistant job at some little school. Freaking nepotism. Co-defensive coordinator? Whatever. Let's put it this way ... when you hear the talking heads opining about the next hotshot young DC, you never hear the name Adam Zimmer mentioned.
Again, I don’t think the guys with the title DC really matter. Zimmer is calling the shots. If we all think zimmer has a leash on the offense and kubiaks play calling, what do you think he really allows these guys to do with HIS defense? I’ll tell you, absolutely nothing. That’s why Adam is still coaching LBs and Patterson is still coaching DL.

I mean look at George edwards. “He coached some very good defenses” but did he? My opinion? No he didn’t. He was a puppet with a title. He goes to Dallas who had a loaded front 7 and their defense was terrible. George edwards was a no-name and will continue to be a no-name. That’s like front offices thinking Adam Gase was an offensive guru. The only reason anyone knows who Adam Gase is is because he had Peyton manning (who could practically call his own offense no problem). George edwards was no different than Gase and Dallas got fooled by it. Just like the dolphins and jets got fooled by Gase. Those weren’t George edwards defenses. George edwards didn’t build those defenses. He was a placeholder for a title that did what zimmer asked.
Gary Kubiak
I agree with you that he's been handcuffed by Mike Zimmer. And it makes no sense. It's not as though Kubiak doesn't understand the importance of a running game. He's ALWAYS had a great running game, wherever he's coached. But with Zimmer, it's not the amount of rushing attempts, it's that our tendencies are obvious. We always, ALWAYS run on 2nd and long and 3rd and short. I believe that's Zimmer's influence. Also, you're right ... with our weapons, we should be throwing more than we do. Now that we have tight ends who can actually get down the field, things could be even more explosive. Let Kubiak do his job. He knows what he's doing.
Completely agree
Mike Zimmer
I'm ready for a change. It's not gonna happen, but I'm ready. He did a good job on one hand of getting the team to stay connected to the season when they were 1-5. But for much of the season, the defense was just obliterated. For me, the issue is overall and offensive philosophy. He's stuck in 1992. This year, Kirk Cousins finished the season with 516 pass attempts, which was 15th most in the NFL. In 1992, that would have ranked second. The game has changed. Zimmer hasn't. Not everyone will agree. That's cool. And like I've said, the Wilfs value continuity over everything. Zimmer isn't going anywhere.
Oh I agree there will be no change and I’m ready as well. You make some good points here. I like the 1992 stat.
Rick Spielman
He's a puppet. He's supposed to be in charge, but I don't believe he is. Zimmer is. Mike Zimmer gets whoever he wants in the draft. Even this year, when we drafted one of the best rookies to ever play the game, we still took a corner in the first. You can't convince me that Zimmer didn't pull those strings. I don't hate him as GM, and I don't love him. Again, when the best GMs in the NFL are mentioned, Spielman's name doesn't come up. But yet again, he's not going anywhere. The Wilfs love the guy.
I disagree here. I think he might be a puppet to an extent but go back and watch the draft footage of when they were selecting Jefferson this year. You heard zimmer say (in somewhat of an annoyed tone), “what corner is going to be there?”. Spielman responded with “the corners will be sitting there” and Spielman proceeded to draft Jefferson. Hell of a move. Now answer me this....if this was a Bill O’Brien situation and zimmer had all the control, do you think we would’ve drafted Justin Jefferson at 22? I’ll answer....not a chance in hell. That would’ve 1000% been a corner. Video link below:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssp ... erson/amp/

Point is, Spielman might bow down to him here and there, but I don’t think that’s always the case. Spielman can spot talent, and he spotted that one and didn’t give a damn what anyone else wanted.

As for mentioning who the top GMs in the league are, there really is no tell. And what I mean by that is I remember seeing rankings back in 2013-2014 somewhere in there and they had Chris Ballard in the top 5 (old colts GM). Simply because he drafted Andrew luck. Now last I checked, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to have the #1 overall pick and Andrew luck coming out and taking him. Yet Ballard continued to fail at building any sort of worthwhile defense and was then fired.

Or someone like Howie Roseman. The Eagles win the SB, they have a loaded roster even though their backs are against the wall cap wise, etc. And now look at Roseman. He’s on the verge of being the laughing stock of the league. They look like they are heading into a much worse situation cap wise, performance wise and injury wise with Carson Wentz. He clearly has no control over his big headed d-bag of a head coach after this weeks debacle with Jalen Hurts, he passed on the best rookie WR the league has seen ever in Justin Jefferson for Jalen Reagor and has pretty much struck out on 3 straight draft classes since the SB. He might’ve hit on hurts but that remains to be seen. And to top it all off, the Eagles won 4 games this year in a historically bad division. So someone that was once declared the “best GM in the league”, just 3 years later is now flirting with being a flat out embarrassment.

Spielman has had his “misses”. But when you look at draft classes like 2015 and this year, they are no joke. Then you add in getting guys like Dalvin with no first rounder, Bradbury, O’Neill, irv, mattison, Conklin, etc. you’re going to have a roster that can and will be compete. This year was a little different story given injuries and such. But again, this team still competed with a defense that shouldn’t even be allowed on a field. A practice squad/scout team defense. I remember you saying when the Vikings were 1-5 that you didn’t see a difference between them and the jets and that the only difference is the Vikings have one more win. And what did I keep saying? There is too much talent in this roster, they are nowhere near the jets. Literally MILES away from being that bad and that’s WITH a practice squad defense. This team could’ve very well been a 2 win team with that defense. But again, the talent is there. And that’s without guys like Barr, kendricks, hunter and Pierce. And a slew of rookies corners starting. The only legitimate players left on that defense were our two safeties. And we STILL won 7 games. That says something. That says the GM is still putting enough talent on this roster that when his entire defense gets completely wiped out, they can still win games.

I’m honestly excited for this years draft and see what Spielman pulls off. Especially with 11 picks already coming our way again and gaining everyone back from injury and opt outs.

I don’t head into draft night thinking “shi* what’s this idiot going to do?”. Many fans of teams cannot say that. Granted I’d like him to address guard and DT more than he does but overall, I think Spielman is a very good GM. I just Zimmer is past his old school days but refuses to let them go.
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 7:58 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:17 am
Kapp....
Andre Patterson
The problem with him as co-DC is that he's not the D-line coach, where he excels. I hated this move when it was made, and I still hate it.
Patterson is still the DL coach. He’s listed as co-DC and DL coach. And I’m sure he’s still quite involved with the DL.
Adam Zimmer
I don't care. Honestly, I don't get how a guy who plays football at Trinity University can immediately get a coaching job in the NFL with the Saints UNLESS he's got a dad who's buddies with Sean Payton. Most kids in his position MIGHT get a grad assistant job at some little school. Freaking nepotism. Co-defensive coordinator? Whatever. Let's put it this way ... when you hear the talking heads opining about the next hotshot young DC, you never hear the name Adam Zimmer mentioned.
Again, I don’t think the guys with the title DC really matter. Zimmer is calling the shots. If we all think zimmer has a leash on the offense and kubiaks play calling, what do you think he really allows these guys to do with HIS defense? I’ll tell you, absolutely nothing. That’s why Adam is still coaching LBs and Patterson is still coaching DL.
Forgot about their dual roles. Thanks for correcting me.

Here's the thing. What they do on game day doesn't matter to me. For sure, Mike Zimmer is in charge on game day. I'm more concerned about how they spend their time during the week. I would imagine that Patterson and Adam Zimmer do the sh!t jobs within the DC role that Zimmer doesn't want to do, which takes them away from their roles as position coaches. Or worse, they actually do lots of DC stuff during the week and have even less time for their position players. In general the "co-this, position-that" titles are goofy and inefficient. Mike Zimmer would do well to hire an actual DC, let him do his job, and step back so he can see the big picture.

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:17 am
I mean look at George edwards. “He coached some very good defenses” but did he? My opinion? No he didn’t. He was a puppet with a title. He goes to Dallas who had a loaded front 7 and their defense was terrible. George edwards was a no-name and will continue to be a no-name. That’s like front offices thinking Adam Gase was an offensive guru. The only reason anyone knows who Adam Gase is is because he had Peyton manning (who could practically call his own offense no problem). George edwards was no different than Gase and Dallas got fooled by it. Just like the dolphins and jets got fooled by Gase. Those weren’t George edwards defenses. George edwards didn’t build those defenses. He was a placeholder for a title that did what zimmer asked.
Gase then went on and fooled the Jets AFTER fooling the Dolphins. Now there's a rumor he's in the running for the Alabama OC job. Talk about leading a charmed life.

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:17 am
I disagree here. I think he might be a puppet to an extent but go back and watch the draft footage of when they were selecting Jefferson this year. You heard zimmer say (in somewhat of an annoyed tone), “what corner is going to be there?”. Spielman responded with “the corners will be sitting there” and Spielman proceeded to draft Jefferson. Hell of a move. Now answer me this....if this was a Bill O’Brien situation and zimmer had all the control, do you think we would’ve drafted Justin Jefferson at 22? I’ll answer....not a chance in hell.
You're probably right. I guess my feeling on Spielman is that I don't buy into the whole "shared vision" thing he keeps putting out. I know he has to say that for PR purposes, but there's no way he and Zimmer are simpatico on everything. The example you cite with Jefferson is a perfect example. If the Vikings fired Zimmer and kept Spielman, I wouldn't be upset. But if they fired both, I'd still snore loudly at night (allegedly, according to my wife).

Also, I'd already seen the video you cite, but after re-watching, I think some context is needed here. The video starts with Spielman saying there will be corners at 25, and THEN Zimmer asks, "What corners are available?" That's when Spielman says, "They'll be sitting there." But Zimmer is just as excited to get Justin Jefferson as Spielman is. My problem is simple ... why is Zimmer asking, "What corners are available?" Shouldn't he know? I mean, ask anybody on this board, and they could probably answer that question. Shouldn't the head coach know such basic things?
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Re: Heading into the 2021 Offseason- FO/Coaching

Post by VikingPaul73 » Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:41 am

Are we sure Kubiak is retiring ?? I keep reading he is leaning towards retirement but not that he has officially decided or formally announced.

I hope they fully clean house on the coaching staff- full reset

But if they don’t (and like many I believe they won’t) then I hope Gary stays. There has just been WAAAAYYYYYY too much turnover there during the Zimmer era. And as TV said in another thread the team is built around his philosophy of smaller, athletic lineman, 2 TE sets, etc.

I’d hate to go through another offensive rebuild under Zimmer.
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