Spielman's performance

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psjordan
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Spielman's performance

Post by psjordan » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:56 am

Thought this was detailed and interesting. I didn't agree with every conclusion but it seems fair. It does not address the cumulative effect of prior years, which I suspect will be a rub for folks. But at least the writer took a whack:

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2020/12/2 ... k-spielman
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Re: Spielman's performance

Post by RandyMoss84 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:44 am

Speilman needs to go
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Re: Spielman's performance

Post by Texas Vike » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:37 am

psjordan wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:56 am
Thought this was detailed and interesting. I didn't agree with every conclusion but it seems fair. It does not address the cumulative effect of prior years, which I suspect will be a rub for folks. But at least the writer took a whack:

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2020/12/2 ... k-spielman
Solid article. I enjoyed reading it. Thanks for posting it. It forced me to remember that this year Spielman has been pretty solid overall. I suspect a five year review would be less favorable.
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Re: Spielman's performance

Post by psjordan » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:14 am

Texas Vike wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:37 am
Solid article. I enjoyed reading it. Thanks for posting it. It forced me to remember that this year Spielman has been pretty solid overall. I suspect a five year review would be less favorable.
Oh I agree, but that would be a monstrous task to write that article, with all the zigging and zagging Rick does every year.

My real question is will the Wilf brothers put a sliding scale on "performance", and weight the 2020 draft too heavily by saying "we can't fire a guy after THAT 12 months of work", basically disregarding prior year failures?

Dunno. Just glad I don't have to evaluate GM's and make the hire/fire decisions.
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Re: Spielman's performance

Post by VikingLord » Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:34 am

Thanks for posting that link.

This article highlights why I believe the Wilfs won't fire Spielman this offseason.
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Re: Spielman's performance

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:20 pm

Spielman is awful. No other GM has has had the multitude of picks he has had especially in the 1st round and turned it into nothing.
Notable first round misses based on draft position in the last 7 years are...
Waynes - Barr - Hughes - CP

Thats 4 in 7 years. Our depth is horrendous.
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Re: Spielman's performance

Post by RandyMoss84 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:10 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:20 pm
Spielman is awful. No other GM has has had the multitude of picks he has had especially in the 1st round and turned it into nothing.
Notable first round misses based on draft position in the last 7 years are...
Waynes - Barr - Hughes - CP

Thats 4 in 7 years. Our depth is horrendous.
You forgot Treadwell
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Re: Spielman's performance

Post by makila » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:41 pm

Thanks for sharing, enjoyable read.

What I think the Wilfs will do, and what I think should happen are two different things. Completely aware of that. I think it is unlikely the Wilfs clean house. I think as along as the team is "good" they are content. No insight, just speculation. I think they should clean house. I'm not NFL owner though. Haha. I think this current "regime" has peaked.

When you've been involved drafting NFL players for 15ish years, and been the GM since 2012 (?), there are going to be examples we can point to that are hits (Diggs), we can point to examples that are misses (Treadwell). At this point, with the volume of picks he's been part of in his career, he'll have both. Just a numbers things.

Obviously the article is focusing just on the roster, which yes is probably the biggest part of his job. It doesn't talk about coaching at all. Which is part of his job. I think the game has passed our coaching staff by. Does Spielman think this? Or does he just want to roll it back with the exact same staff? This should factor into Spielman's overall evaluation, from the top to the bottom.

Something I was talking with a friend about a few days ago, just in a thought exercise. Is it fair to say teams trade up when they've identified something in a player that they feel strongly about that fits the system they use? If your answer to that question is yes, does Spielman always trading down mean they don't identify the traits they want or does he think he can just get them later and out maneuver the other front offices?
Last edited by makila on Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Spielman's performance

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:41 pm

psjordan wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:14 am
Texas Vike wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:37 am
Solid article. I enjoyed reading it. Thanks for posting it. It forced me to remember that this year Spielman has been pretty solid overall. I suspect a five year review would be less favorable.
Oh I agree, but that would be a monstrous task to write that article, with all the zigging and zagging Rick does every year.

My real question is will the Wilf brothers put a sliding scale on "performance", and weight the 2020 draft too heavily by saying "we can't fire a guy after THAT 12 months of work", basically disregarding prior year failures?

Dunno. Just glad I don't have to evaluate GM's and make the hire/fire decisions.
Given the fact that the Wilfs extended Spielman's contract, I'd say their view of his previous five years varies from yours.

I'm not even all that concerned about what Spielman has done in the past, other than the fact that his moves have produced little in the way of true contention for a title. If the Wilfs want a title, I believe they're gonna need a different administration, from Spielman on down.
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Re: Spielman's performance

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:43 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:10 pm
YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:20 pm
Spielman is awful. No other GM has has had the multitude of picks he has had especially in the 1st round and turned it into nothing.
Notable first round misses based on draft position in the last 7 years are...
Waynes - Barr - Hughes - CP

Thats 4 in 7 years. Our depth is horrendous.
You forgot Treadwell
:wallbang: :wallbang:
5 first round busts in 7 years.
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Re: Spielman's performance

Post by YikesVikes » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:47 pm

However, his biggest sin is seeing what we had on roster on defense and choosing to extend Cousins to a near guaranteed deal.
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Re: Spielman's performance

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:50 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:20 pm
Spielman is awful. No other GM has has had the multitude of picks he has had especially in the 1st round and turned it into nothing.
Notable first round misses based on draft position in the last 7 years are...
Waynes - Barr - Hughes - CP

Thats 4 in 7 years. Our depth is horrendous.
Just playing devil's advocate ...

Some will say that Anthony Barr is a 4-time Pro Bowler.

Others will say that Waynes was a 4-year starter with 7 picks who parlayed his success(?) with the Vikings into a 3-year, $42 million contract on the free agent market.

Still others will say that Cordarrelle Patterson is a 4-time All-Pro. Sure, it's as a kick returner, but they could say it.

Spielman has also drafted Justin Jefferson in the first, Eric Kendricks, Danielle Hunter, and Dalvin Cook in later rounds, and pulled guys like Adam Thielen off the UFA scrap heap. It hasn't been total misses.

I'm not gonna argue that the Vikings need a change. IMO they do, from Spielman right on down. This whole defense, play-not-to-lose ideology doesn't work in the modern NFL. But Rick Spielman has hit on plenty of draft picks. The thing is, he's MADE so many draft picks, he was bound to hit on a few.
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Re: Spielman's performance

Post by makila » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:51 pm

YikesVikes wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:47 pm
However, his biggest sin is seeing what we had on roster on defense and choosing to extend Cousins to a near guaranteed deal.
Yeah it focuses a bit in a vacuum. Kudos to them for even trying. Haha.
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Re: Spielman's performance

Post by S197 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:31 pm

I think the author makes some good points but also cherry picks quite a lot.

He compares Rhodes to Dantzler instead of our 1st round pick Gladney. The difference had he done that would be a 78.4 grade for Rhodes vs a 49.8 grade for Gladney. I know, Gladney is playing in the slot (not a ringing endorsement) but even then, Alexander is outplaying him and was a cheap re-sign. We definitely could have used him this year. And of course no mention of Mike Hughes, another 1st round corner that was a huge draft miss.

He compares Linval to Pierce's play...on another team? He glosses over Stephen, probably because he ranks second to last in pass rush win rate amongst DTs. The only player graded worse was Jaleel Johnson. Also conveniently left out.

He talks at length about Josh Kline but then fails to mention that PFF has Dozier as the worst graded guard in the NFL.

He talks about Anthony Harris but then mentions his PFF grade from last year. What about this year? I'm betting it's dropped significantly and was like many other poor scores, conveniently left out.

Maybe I'm biased because I want Rick gone but he seemed to focused heavily on the positives while downplaying or flat out ignoring the negatives.
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Re: Spielman's performance

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:50 pm

S197 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:31 pm
I think the author makes some good points but also cherry picks quite a lot.

He compares Rhodes to Dantzler instead of our 1st round pick Gladney. The difference had he done that would be a 78.4 grade for Rhodes vs a 49.8 grade for Gladney. I know, Gladney is playing in the slot (not a ringing endorsement) but even then, Alexander is outplaying him and was a cheap re-sign. We definitely could have used him this year. And of course no mention of Mike Hughes, another 1st round corner that was a huge draft miss.

He compares Linval to Pierce's play...on another team? He glosses over Stephen, probably because he ranks second to last in pass rush win rate amongst DTs. The only player graded worse was Jaleel Johnson. Also conveniently left out.

He talks at length about Josh Kline but then fails to mention that PFF has Dozier as the worst graded guard in the NFL.

He talks about Anthony Harris but then mentions his PFF grade from last year. What about this year? I'm betting it's dropped significantly and was like many other poor scores, conveniently left out.

Maybe I'm biased because I want Rick gone but he seemed to focused heavily on the positives while downplaying or flat out ignoring the negatives.
No, the author is completely out of his mind.

He said this draft compares favorably to the 2015 one, but outside of JJ, there isn't anyone who looks like a star in that draft. Maybe some decent depth or even a solid starter, but Kendricks, Hunter and Diggs could be considered the best at their individual positions. Even Waynes ended up being good.

Rookies playing a lot doesn't necessarily mean they are good rookies. Rookies playing a lot and playing well does.
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