Vikings-Saints Game Day

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J. Kapp 11
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Re: Vikings-Saints Game Day

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:07 pm

This was one of the most unwatchable games in Vikings history, at least from a defensive perspective. Three or four years ago, I looked forward to watching the defense. They flew to the ball. They were fast. They could generate pressure nearly every down. Now I sit there on the sofa, cringing and curling up in stress every time the opponent snaps the ball and our line gets pushed back 3 yards. I find myself praying for a fumble or the one of the gift interceptions like we saw yesterday from Brees. In other words, I never expect the Vikings to actually stop the other team. I just hope for the other team to screw up.

What's really sad is that the offense generated 25 first downs and 5 touchdowns against a Saints defense that's been ranked No. 1 for most of the season. Yet by the end of the game, we found ourselves complaining that Sean Payton was running up the score.

Once upon a time, there was a stat that talking heads used to bolster Zimmer's resume — his won-lost record when the Vikings score 21 points or more. For a long time, it was a ridiculously high winning percentage. Our complaint was that we simply didn't have enough games where we scored 21.

This year, the Vikings have lost SEVEN such games, including THREE games in which the offense put up 30 or more.

Sorry Zimmer, but when your stock in trade is defense, and you lose three games because you couldn't hold the opponent to less than 30, then you've worn out your stay.

Zygi and the Wilfs, here's your step-by-step path to a winner.
1. Fire Zimmer.
2. Fire Spielman.
3. Hire Mike Borgonzi, the Chiefs director of football operations, as GM. He's served as No. 2 in both the Chiefs and Patriots systems, and he's more than ready to assume a top position. He's the hottest GM candidate out there.
4. Encourage Borgonzi to hire Eric Bieniemy as head coach. He's the hottest head coaching candidate out there. If there truly is talent in our young players, Bieniemy will maximize it.

Do the right thing, Wilfs. For the love of God, hire some winners.
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Re: Vikings-Saints Game Day

Post by Bowhunting Viking » Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:37 pm

I don't even know where to begin complaining... I mean commenting.. on yesterdays pathetic attempt at playing. I don't even think I want to , or really need to, as most if you suffered through it also.

Kapp i am right there with you in your thoughts about the Vikes Defense in years past. I reminisce about so many seasons way in the past to the season just a few years ago. I remember being excited when the D took the field. We had the promise that we could make a stop, cause a turnover, get the ball back for the O, and were a freakin blast watching do it.

Yesterday it was pretty much "So will they RIP off a 7 yrd run or a 14? What reciever will Brees hit wide open yadda yadda. There was absolutely no hope whatsoever. My wife came down to the man cave and after about 4 plays she said " Man so many Vikings hit him and nobody tackled him ", of course she was talking about Kamara. I said Honey I don't think today they could tackle all 102 pounds of you!!

That was not at all a fun Christmas as far as football went. And I remember how excited I was when the schedule was released and I saw that we were playing a Christmas day game. If I only knew!

Want an example of just how bad our Defense has been??? Well, we are now fodder on pre game discussions to describe terrible team play. If anyone else watched the NFL Network pregame show today and caught it they know what I mean. They were talking about the Buccaneers starting slow in games and how they can't pull that off in the playoffs, as the teams get better and better as you advance. Said that the Bucs can't start that slow and expect to try and score and win in the second half. MJD said " I mean you're not going to be playing the Vikings every week". So that's the level we have descended to. And it sucks!

Big changes need to be made. We read many opinions on here of the changes many feel need to be made to make us a competitive team. Problem is, with the Wylf's seemingly being content of just being decent , making an appearance in the playoffs every other year or so and continuing to make money, those changes probably won't be made and we will continue to swim in the cesspool of mediocrity season after season. Sad isn't it??

I will try and end on a slightly humorous note. Yesterday before the game the wife was up in the kitchen and I was in the basement man cave watching pre game. They showed the list of inactives scrolling across the bottom of the screen, and it was the 1st that I had seen it, and I saw C.J. Ham on the list. I just said out loud " Oh man no Ham today!!". All of a sudden I heard " You said you wanted the Pork Loin" . It was about the only chuckle I had from about 2 - 8 pm yesterday.
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Re: Vikings-Saints Game Day

Post by VikingLord » Sat Dec 26, 2020 3:18 pm

Yesterday's game was a horror show for the Vikings defense for sure, but if you look at the front 7 of that defense, they were really under-manned and have been for the last 2 games and it showed on the field.

The defensive secondary, OTOH, wasn't under-manned for the most part. Chris Jones has got to go. He can't cover and he's not a good tackler. Gladney had an awful game, mostly in terms of his tackling, but his coverage sucked too. Not sure what was wrong with him as if he has a strength it's his ability to tackle. Dantzler and Hand did OK. Hand was probably their best corner yesterday, and that wasn't saying much.

But Harrison Smith and Anthony Harris deserve the most criticism. Harris especially was awful yesterday. He was late on reads and coverage and his tackling was atrocious. He just didn't seem like he wanted to commit to making tackles, took bad angles that made tackling much more difficult, and just generally seemed disinterested. Harrison Smith didn't seem disinterested, but his read and recognition was terrible. There were several plays where it seemed like he had no idea where the ball was. On other plays, it seemed like he as almost reckless in terms of the gambles he took. He wasn't as bad as Harris, but he didn't do anything to stabilize things, either.

I get the criticism of Zimmer, but what I saw on the field yesterday was a bunch of athletes who were ready to go home for the winter. They didn't look like they wanted to be there. There isn't much coaches can do when their players mail it in early.

The offense wasn't great either. Yes, they scored a decent amount of points against the Saints, but my criticism of the Vikings offense is that they seem to play one way now. There are no deep attempts. The last two games, the Vikings have just played their style of ball control, run with shorter passes offense. It works, but there are no deep attempts. There are no attempts to take the top off the defense with big plays downfield. Not to JJ, not to Thielen, not to Irv Smith.

The Vikings are giving up big plays to the opposition, but not getting any or even attempting any of their own. I don't understand that as they have the offensive players to make those attempts and give themselves a chance. Gone are the days of the big pass attempts to Diggs for quick scores. Gone even are the deep attempts to either Adam Thielen or JJ of earlier this year. The Vikings either don't or won't go deep, and without those deep attempts you see DCs bringing the CBs and safeties down and in. All of those extra defenders being ready to collapse on runs and shorter passes and screens make all of that shorter stuff more challenging. It isn't enough to completely shut the Viking offense down, but more than enough to slow it down and get it off the field one or two or three more times than the opposing offense needs to stay on to offset whatever points the Vikings can generate.

Very frustrating. The Vikings need to change that dynamic in this final game against the Lions. There have to be several deep attempts even if they get picked off.
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Re: Vikings-Saints Game Day

Post by S197 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:50 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:07 pm
This was one of the most unwatchable games in Vikings history, at least from a defensive perspective. Three or four years ago, I looked forward to watching the defense. They flew to the ball. They were fast. They could generate pressure nearly every down. Now I sit there on the sofa, cringing and curling up in stress every time the opponent snaps the ball and our line gets pushed back 3 yards. I find myself praying for a fumble or the one of the gift interceptions like we saw yesterday from Brees. In other words, I never expect the Vikings to actually stop the other team. I just hope for the other team to screw up.

What's really sad is that the offense generated 25 first downs and 5 touchdowns against a Saints defense that's been ranked No. 1 for most of the season. Yet by the end of the game, we found ourselves complaining that Sean Payton was running up the score.

Once upon a time, there was a stat that talking heads used to bolster Zimmer's resume — his won-lost record when the Vikings score 21 points or more. For a long time, it was a ridiculously high winning percentage. Our complaint was that we simply didn't have enough games where we scored 21.

This year, the Vikings have lost SEVEN such games, including THREE games in which the offense put up 30 or more.

Sorry Zimmer, but when your stock in trade is defense, and you lose three games because you couldn't hold the opponent to less than 30, then you've worn out your stay.

Zygi and the Wilfs, here's your step-by-step path to a winner.
1. Fire Zimmer.
2. Fire Spielman.
3. Hire Mike Borgonzi, the Chiefs director of football operations, as GM. He's served as No. 2 in both the Chiefs and Patriots systems, and he's more than ready to assume a top position. He's the hottest GM candidate out there.
4. Encourage Borgonzi to hire Eric Bieniemy as head coach. He's the hottest head coaching candidate out there. If there truly is talent in our young players, Bieniemy will maximize it.

Do the right thing, Wilfs. For the love of God, hire some winners.
Borgonzi is a good prospect and I think a likely upgrade over Spielman. Ed Dodds would probably be my top pick. I like what he’s done with finding good value in mid-round picks, which is where I feel a GM really earns his keep. Plus he’s done a good job of assembling solid defenses in both Seattle and Indy. I think pairing him up with Bienemy or a similar coach with a more modern approach to the offense would work well together.

No matter who, I hope the Wilfs make changes. My biggest fear is they see a fan base that is content with average and will stay with the safety of Spielman/Zimmer. They don’t seem like owners hungry for a championship, I think their top priority is keeping the stands filled and the Vikings are average enough to do that. They may fear blowing it up and having a down year or two particularly after the lost revenues from covid.
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Re: Vikings-Saints Game Day

Post by Frozen Rope » Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:50 pm

psjordan wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:47 am
psjordan wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:11 pm
6) The players are not responding to a nepotistic, sarcastic and caustic coaching staff led at the top by Mike Zimmer, and it’s particularly hard on the OL. I want to give this some credence, but Belichick is/was getting away with it in NE to some degree (maybe not anymore). Maybe you can be caustic and hire your son when you have Tom Brady at the helm, I don’t know. I do think Belichick’s personality is a lot friendlier than Zim’s with the team (based on what I’ve heard). But if players think the three sons on our coaching staff shouldn’t be there and Zim’s a tool, that’s a problem.
I realize it is bad form to quote yourself AND grab it out of context from another thread (didn't want to hijack that one), but ...

After listening to Zim's post-Saints-game comments, imma go ahead and give the above more credence than before.

Who on defense yesterday would want to play for this guy in the future after NONE of his comments included "it starts with the coaches - I did not do a good enough job coaching"? Yeah Zim, you have a bunch of guys short on experience and talent in there yesterday, but goodness you are going to rely on what, between 3 and 5 of them to start in the future?

Seems like player failures are NEVER Zim's fault. And the world would come crashing down if he called out his coaching staff. "This is my first bad defense, ever". Really dude? You and your staff had ZERO defensive backups ready to play yesterday. And the vets seemed to say screw this.

I am liking Zim less and less every year. He's down to a non-negotiable show-him-the-door in my book.
I think you are dead on Jordan. I believe the culture is to motivate through fear. You never see the coaches happy and congratulating players on the sideline. One could make the argument that Belichick is ornery and caustic and it works for him. Or someone could point out Zimmer record. Good points, but my feeling is you can have a lot of talent and never reach your potential. Most coaches can be successful with a talented roster, but great coaches find a way to motivate through a blend of encouragement and discipline. That was on full display yesterday. And you’re right Jordan, he never takes responsibility. Reminds me of the saying “the beatings will continue until morale improves”. You guys have been around this organization a lot longer than me, but this is the feeling I have after watching him for three years. Loved the stink eye Kirk gave Zimmer before the half.
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Re: Vikings-Saints Game Day

Post by Maelstrom88 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:11 pm

https://youtu.be/r7IGyWnqrCc

Good video breakdown of some of the ways the Saints were able to dominate. Tackling obviously was a huge problem. As much as I like Wilson in coverage is he a reliable tackler?

Offensively he shows Bradbury just get dominated on a bull rush. I realize strength was a weakness of his coming out but he's been in an NFL strength and conditioning program for 2 years now and this is pathetic. He looks like he is on ice and has no anchor.
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Re: Vikings-Saints Game Day

Post by CharVike » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:58 am

Maelstrom88 wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:11 pm
https://youtu.be/r7IGyWnqrCc

Good video breakdown of some of the ways the Saints were able to dominate. Tackling obviously was a huge problem. As much as I like Wilson in coverage is he a reliable tackler?

Offensively he shows Bradbury just get dominated on a bull rush. I realize strength was a weakness of his coming out but he's been in an NFL strength and conditioning program for 2 years now and this is pathetic. He looks like he is on ice and has no anchor.
That was the knock on Bradbury when he came out. He may never get an anchor. Everybody responds to strength training differently. But he was the best center available and he fits this zone blocking crap which is what most teams use. I prefer getting the bigger guy and going head to head straight up. Hard nose football. Not this zone BS. Maybe I'm in a dream land but IMO size and speed advantage is key in football. Give me the bigger guy and just pound people. Give me the fastest guy and blow the roof off. Teams don't do that and maybe it's impossible. The Saints got beat the week before by a better team. They were in must win and couldn't step up at home. Maybe they didn't want it enough. They wanted us that's for sure and dominated. S happens.
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