Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by StumpHunter » Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:19 pm

Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:11 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:38 pm


You are leaving out the option to draft a really good rookie and pay him pennies compared to what Cousins makes.

Besides, what exactly is overpaying Kirk versus settling for a Fitz or Keenum getting us right now? A lesser team around the QB and absolutely no hope is all I am seeing.
That's an option if you can identify the "really good rookie" and be in position to get him. I'm still not sure who we haven't been able to get or keep as a result of Kirk's salary.
No one. The 84 million we spent over the past 3 years would have been spent on no one.

Having an extra 31 million next year wouldn't help us improve one bit either. Who needs cap when you have a ton of holes to fill?
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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by StumpHunter » Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:37 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:42 pm
CharVike wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:29 am

The stiff beat one team with a winning record in 2017 and it took a miracle for that to happen. He was far from a top QB in 2017. It was a feel good story. Elway found that out the hard way. Tomlin has had a HOF QB. Packers have had back to back HOF QBs. Bellichick had a HOF QB. Now that he don't he can't make the playoffs. The Saints have a HOF QB. HOF QBs don't grow on trees. They are hard to find. Every coach needs players. And to make the Super Bowl they need great players and most importantly a great QB. Jimmy Johnson found that out the hard way also. He went to the Dolphins and couldn't get them to the Super Bowl. That's with a HOF QB. I don't care if we move on from Zimmer. If Tomlin came here I don't see us as a Super Bowl favorite with him. We don't have that talent level. Especially on defense. Bring Eric B here. He better bring Mahomes with him. We don't become Super Bowl contenders with him. Our D isn't good enough and we don't have Rodgers at QB. Perhaps Eric B can build our D up. I don't know. Bring everybody in from KC that they can. They still need to find a top dog QB who plays for nothing. I don't see that in this draft with our projected pick or in FA. Maybe in 2022 or 23 or 24 ect..... When we started this rebuild this year many of us were happy with that fact that maybe we will get the 1st pick and this years stud QB. The kid looks like a great player. Well that won't happen now because we won some meaningless games. That hurt more than it helped. But you can't tell the team to lay down. Players won't do that. Bring in Eric send Kirk to the trash. Maybe we will make the Super Bowl in 2022.
Seriously man, you should look things up before you cite facts.

In addition to the New Orleans win in the playoffs, the 2017 Vikings also beat the Lions (9-7), the Ravens (9-7), the Falcons (10-6) and the Rams (11-5). That’s five total wins against teams with winning records. Three of those wins were on the road.
Man, remember when Zimmer used to be able to beat winning teams? Even in 2016 they beat a few playoff teams. What happened?
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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:16 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 11:37 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:42 pm

Seriously man, you should look things up before you cite facts.

In addition to the New Orleans win in the playoffs, the 2017 Vikings also beat the Lions (9-7), the Ravens (9-7), the Falcons (10-6) and the Rams (11-5). That’s five total wins against teams with winning records. Three of those wins were on the road.
Man, remember when Zimmer used to be able to beat winning teams? Even in 2016 they beat a few playoff teams. What happened?
Weirdly enough, we beat Green Bay this year and had both Tennessee and Seattle on the ropes. Technically, our victory over Chicago was over a winning team. Yet we lost to Dallas and Atlanta, two teams with 20 losses between them, and needed overtime to beat the 14-loss Jaguars.

Zimmer’s teams fight. They just don’t rise to the occasion against good competition most of the time.
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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by Fat Stupid Loser » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:30 am

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:13 pm
Frozen Rope wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:58 pm

I got it FSL. Dwayne Haskins!
Dwayne Haskins is garbage, have you seen him play today?
Yep, that was Frozen Rope's point. Washington took the swing, AGAIN, as so many here want the Vikes to do. Smart owners are more risk averse. Dan Snyder, not so much. They understand they are more likely to mortgage the future for RG3, Haskins, Rosen, Darnold than they are for Mahomes. Since there is only one of him. The rest aren't worth the mortgage. Not when you have a pretty darn good QB in his prime. If the next great one is reasonably within reach, go for it. The next great one is still a crap shoot. Doesn't mean you don't try to upgrade if he is reasonably within your grasp.
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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:32 pm

Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:30 am
RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:13 pm


Dwayne Haskins is garbage, have you seen him play today?
Yep, that was Frozen Rope's point. Washington took the swing, AGAIN, as so many here want the Vikes to do. Smart owners are more risk averse. Dan Snyder, not so much. They understand they are more likely to mortgage the future for RG3, Haskins, Rosen, Darnold than they are for Mahomes. Since there is only one of him. The rest aren't worth the mortgage. Not when you have a pretty darn good QB in his prime. If the next great one is reasonably within reach, go for it. The next great one is still a crap shoot. Doesn't mean you don't try to upgrade if he is reasonably within your grasp.
Washington was the worst case scenario for drafting a QB and they still have the same record as us.

You think smart owners are risk averse when it comes to drafting a QB instead of overpaying an average one?

Detroit and LV overpay average QBs instead of trying to find a great one via the draft. You don't see NE, KC, Baltimore, or Pitt doing that. You see the crap teams of the NFL doing it.
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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by Fat Stupid Loser » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:06 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:32 pm
Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:30 am


Yep, that was Frozen Rope's point. Washington took the swing, AGAIN, as so many here want the Vikes to do. Smart owners are more risk averse. Dan Snyder, not so much. They understand they are more likely to mortgage the future for RG3, Haskins, Rosen, Darnold than they are for Mahomes. Since there is only one of him. The rest aren't worth the mortgage. Not when you have a pretty darn good QB in his prime. If the next great one is reasonably within reach, go for it. The next great one is still a crap shoot. Doesn't mean you don't try to upgrade if he is reasonably within your grasp.
Washington was the worst case scenario for drafting a QB and they still have the same record as us.

You think smart owners are risk averse when it comes to drafting a QB instead of overpaying an average one?

Detroit and LV overpay average QBs instead of trying to find a great one via the draft. You don't see NE, KC, Baltimore, or Pitt doing that. You see the crap teams of the NFL doing it.
I don't know man. NE? Nobody NE drafted had any chance whatsoever of playing outside of injury until Brady didn't want to play there anymore. Who did they draft? I ask cause I don't know. Crapopalo? They drafted guys but nobody where any real capital was given up.
KC hit a home run. One time in the entire history of the franchise.
Pitt-- who have they drafted since Ben of any significance. Have they given up picks, players, capital of any kind to get a replacement for their aging, injury prone QB? That guy of Ok State?
Baltimore didn't have a QB and picked a guy nobody thought would be any good. Except Harbaugh I guess. Or he took a flier on a guy that had ability and it worked pretty well til the hits add up.

I'm not against upgrading, I just think you have to be really sure about these 3rd/4th round talent guys that get hyped by the draft machine into first round guys every year. If your QB sucks, and your team sucks, you take your shot. Problem is you get Sam Darnold and Dwayne Haskins 90% of the time. You've spent your capital and you still suck. And all the GMs know that. Teams with good QBs that aren't aging don't spend a lot of capital on serious competition for their QB. GMs that do will get fired far more than celebrated. Like 99% of them.
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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by VikingLord » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:38 pm

Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:06 pm
I don't know man. NE? Nobody NE drafted had any chance whatsoever of playing outside of injury until Brady didn't want to play there anymore. Who did they draft? I ask cause I don't know. Crapopalo? They drafted guys but nobody where any real capital was given up.
KC hit a home run. One time in the entire history of the franchise.
Pitt-- who have they drafted since Ben of any significance. Have they given up picks, players, capital of any kind to get a replacement for their aging, injury prone QB? That guy of Ok State?
Baltimore didn't have a QB and picked a guy nobody thought would be any good. Except Harbaugh I guess. Or he took a flier on a guy that had ability and it worked pretty well til the hits add up.

I'm not against upgrading, I just think you have to be really sure about these 3rd/4th round talent guys that get hyped by the draft machine into first round guys every year. If your QB sucks, and your team sucks, you take your shot. Problem is you get Sam Darnold and Dwayne Haskins 90% of the time. You've spent your capital and you still suck. And all the GMs know that. Teams with good QBs that aren't aging don't spend a lot of capital on serious competition for their QB. GMs that do will get fired far more than celebrated. Like 99% of them.
Your point is well-taken.

Look at the QBs who are leading a lot of the successful teams this year.

- Rodgers slipped past the Vikings twice in the draft he came out, along with the majority of the teams in the NFL.
- Wilson lasted to the 3rd round.
- Brady lasted to the 6th round.
- Even Mahomes didn't go #1.

It's pretty obvious that assessing college talent isn't trivial even for people who professionally do that, and the teams that ended up with those players were as lucky as they were good at doing that.

I still think when it comes to evaluating a GM or a head coach the best measure is going to be comparing them to their peers over a period of time and further, to recognize that someone can be a very good GM or head coach and still never win it all. Max Winter and Bud Grant are examples of that. If the only metric of success is "did these guys get to and win a Superbowl", and if they didn't they are failures and need to be replaced, then it is possible you could be shipping out quality and taking in crap.

I don't think the Wilfs will make a change at GM or head coach this offseason even if the Vikings lose to the Lions. I think they invested in both Spielman and Zimmer with their extensions and are going to let things play out next season because the two of them have had enough success for the Wilfs to stay the course.
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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:39 pm

Dwayne Haskins have been released, what a bust
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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by makila » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:48 pm

QB development/support system by the NFL team is a huge factor. I don't care who you draft, where you draft them. If you don't have a great QB coach and QB room they aren't going to develop as expected. That's almost always a common thread with great QBs. They, the QB coach, the OC/HC (whoever calls plays) all function as one unit and think the same. It's as much mental as physical at the position. IMHO.

Who ran the QBs in 2017, the Keenum year? Stefanski and Shurmur.

As much as people want to say KC lucked into Mahomes. They also moved up to get him, so they identified something they wanted and went and got him. Don't rewrite history. This is something we almost never do as an organization. We move down.
----------------------------------------
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/new ... dzwew6ol9e

The Chiefs weren't the most obvious candidate to select a quarterback in 2017. They'd just gone 12-4 in 2016 with former No. 1 overall pick Alex Smith at quarterback. Andy Reid could count on a veteran, accurate QB like Smith to execute whatever fun or different offensive schemes he wanted to cook up.

Kansas City had identified Mahomes as the quarterback prospect it wanted to build around, though. That's what Clark Hunt told ESPN in 2019. Originally slated to pick 27th, Kansas City didn't feel that Mahomes would make it to that pick.

"We knew that we were interested in Patrick, and if the opportunity came along for us to trade up and get him, it was something that we wanted to do," Hunt told ESPN. "I would say that in a lot of ways, it made it more of a nervous first hour just watching the players come off the board."

The Chiefs had already been working to line up trades to move up before the draft began, and one of those deals set in place was with Buffalo, according to ESPN. When nine picks had gone by and Mahomes was still available, Kansas City made the move.
----------------------------------------

An example of they "just got lucky" is more comparable to Rick drafting AD. That was just dumb luck AD was still on the board, and yes Rick at least pulled the trigger. The Vikings made no effort to move up to grab the guy. They just get credit for being lucky and then drafting him when he fell, imho.

Ultimately there is no perfect formula for finding a franchise QB, as we can all point to numerous examples in the NFL. My BIGGEST complaint (which I've ranted about this year on these boards, heh) about this front office is their inability to identify who they are, what they need, and what to target. QB position screams to me as one of the biggest examples. You want a game manager or a gun slinger? Do you want someone dependent on Play Action schemes? Are you going to pay top dollar to a QB that can win a game on their arm alone? Or do you need to build up other parts of your offense for your QB to consistently play to their potential? They don't know, or have failed to execute their vision, imho.
Last edited by makila on Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by S197 » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:55 pm

Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:06 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:32 pm


Washington was the worst case scenario for drafting a QB and they still have the same record as us.

You think smart owners are risk averse when it comes to drafting a QB instead of overpaying an average one?

Detroit and LV overpay average QBs instead of trying to find a great one via the draft. You don't see NE, KC, Baltimore, or Pitt doing that. You see the crap teams of the NFL doing it.
I don't know man. NE? Nobody NE drafted had any chance whatsoever of playing outside of injury until Brady didn't want to play there anymore. Who did they draft? I ask cause I don't know. Crapopalo? They drafted guys but nobody where any real capital was given up.
KC hit a home run. One time in the entire history of the franchise.
Pitt-- who have they drafted since Ben of any significance. Have they given up picks, players, capital of any kind to get a replacement for their aging, injury prone QB? That guy of Ok State?
Baltimore didn't have a QB and picked a guy nobody thought would be any good. Except Harbaugh I guess. Or he took a flier on a guy that had ability and it worked pretty well til the hits add up.

I'm not against upgrading, I just think you have to be really sure about these 3rd/4th round talent guys that get hyped by the draft machine into first round guys every year. If your QB sucks, and your team sucks, you take your shot. Problem is you get Sam Darnold and Dwayne Haskins 90% of the time. You've spent your capital and you still suck. And all the GMs know that. Teams with good QBs that aren't aging don't spend a lot of capital on serious competition for their QB. GMs that do will get fired far more than celebrated. Like 99% of them.
NE drafted two players that went on to start for other teams, Jimmy G and Jacoby Brissett. Pittsburgh spent a high pick on Mason Rudolph. Green Bay just spent a 1st on Love. Everyone laughed and here they are the #1 seed in the NFC.

I agree with you that it's incredibly difficult to find a franchise QB but that doesn't mean you don't try. Good teams with franchise QBs still take shots because that's how important the QB position is.
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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by makila » Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:58 pm

S197 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:55 pm
I agree with you that it's incredibly difficult to find a franchise QB but that doesn't mean you don't try. Good teams with franchise QBs still take shots because that's how important the QB position is.
This very much.

Using KC as the obvious example. They had just had an awesome year with Smith (12-4). Identified they liked Mahomes a lot, and moved up in the draft to get him.

Would our front office do that? After being 12-4? With a QB very similar to Cousins? Nah.
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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by VikingLord » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:14 pm

makila wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:58 pm
S197 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:55 pm
I agree with you that it's incredibly difficult to find a franchise QB but that doesn't mean you don't try. Good teams with franchise QBs still take shots because that's how important the QB position is.
This very much.

Using KC as the obvious example. They had just had an awesome year with Smith (12-4). Identified they liked Mahomes a lot, and moved up in the draft to get him.

Would our front office do that? After being 12-4? With a QB very similar to Cousins? Nah.
It was a big gamble that paid off.

Lots of teams have made similar big gambles that didn't pay off (Herschel Walker trade anyone?)

Put another way, KC got lucky. Plain and simple. They made a bold move and hit paydirt, but it was far more likely to blow up in their face at the time they made it.
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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by makila » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:17 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:14 pm
makila wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:58 pm


This very much.

Using KC as the obvious example. They had just had an awesome year with Smith (12-4). Identified they liked Mahomes a lot, and moved up in the draft to get him.

Would our front office do that? After being 12-4? With a QB very similar to Cousins? Nah.
It was a big gamble that paid off.

Lots of teams have made similar big gambles that didn't pay off (Herschel Walker trade anyone?)

Put another way, KC got lucky. Plain and simple. They made a bold move and hit paydirt, but it was far more likely to blow up in their face at the time they made it.
Of course it was a gamble. As pointed out by S197, you have to try. You aren't going to hit paydirt if you don't try. They didn't just get lucky. They did research, liked a guy, and went up. Yes that's a gamble, not just luck though, it's both. Lucky that the panned out and smart they went to get him. If he was just sitting there at #27 and they took him, yeah that's pure luck. Having a plan and putting it in motion is more than luck. It's action.
Last edited by makila on Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by Mothman » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:19 pm

makila wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:48 pm
As much as people want to say KC lucked into Mahomes. They also moved up to get him, so they identified something they wanted and went and got him. Don't rewrite history. This is something we almost never do as an organization. We move down.
Well said. It's an important observation.

The Vikings don't land a Mahomes, a Wilson, or a Lamar Jackson because unless Spielman finds himself in a "must draft a young QB" position (see 2011 and 2014) they're not even looking for one. Once Spielman thinks he has the starting QB in place, the position seems to become little more than an afterthought. Just bring in a journeyman backup, add an undrafted free agent to the mix and then sit back and watch the magic happen...
Ultimately there is no perfect formula for finding a franchise QB, as we can all point to numerous examples in the NFL. My BIGGEST complaint (which I've ranted about this year on these boards, heh) about this front office is their inability to identify who they are, what they need, and what to target. QB position screams to me as one of the biggest examples. You want a game manager or a gun slinger? Do you want someone dependent on Play Action schemes? Are you going to pay top dollar to a QB that can win a game on their arm alone? Or do you need to build up other parts of your offense for your QB to consistently play to their potential? They don't know, or have failed to execute their vision, imho.
Again, well said.
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Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by Mothman » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:24 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:14 pm
It was a big gamble that paid off.

Lots of teams have made similar big gambles that didn't pay off (Herschel Walker trade anyone?)

Put another way, KC got lucky. Plain and simple. They made a bold move and hit paydirt, but it was far more likely to blow up in their face at the time they made it.
But they didn't get lucky. That's an assessment that utterly ignores the effort they put into the move. Luck is brought about by chance. They had a vision of what they wanted in a QB, scouted Mahomes, assessed his ability, identified him as a player with the attributes to be their guy, made pre-draft preparations to move up and get him and all of that scouting and preparation yielded a great result, which is exactly why they did it in the first place.

That's not luck. That's good work.
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