Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

Fat Stupid Loser
Starter
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:36 am
x 49

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by Fat Stupid Loser » Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:11 pm

S197 wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:36 pm
Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:31 pm


Guys like Alex Smith don't get reasonable deals. He makes reasonably close to what Kirk makes. You want a reasonable deal QB, you get Case, Fitz, Tyrod Taylor. There is nothing reasonable about a good QBs deal. So yeah, if you want to run and ball control and don't care if your QB does much but hand off and throw screens, then those are your guys. They will still get 20 M if they start.
He makes nowhere near what Kirk makes. You could almost get two Alex Smith's for what we're going to be paying Kirk. He has zero guaranteed salary next year and in 2022 but even if he did, he's still $20 million cheaper than Cousins in 2022.
Not a contract guru here, but Alex signed a 4 year 94M contract with 71M guaranteed, 24M a year, the same year Washington wouldn't but Minny did pay Kirk a 3 year 84M contract? Most Washington fans were furious they wouldn't pay Kirk 28M but did pay captain checkdown 24M and gave up picks and players to do it. Now a lot of that is Brucifer Allen's doing, but nevertheless, the choice is have a chump QB or pay a good one too much.
1 x

User avatar
Maelstrom88
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1134
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:38 am
x 222

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by Maelstrom88 » Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:42 pm

I don't think there is any chance Zimmer isn't back next year. I'd prefer Bienemy but I have to believe this team makes the playoffs next year even with Zimmer. I think he will overhaul this defense in the offseason.
0 x
mael·strom

a powerful whirlpool in the sea or a river.

a situation or state of confused movement or violent turmoil.

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12469
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 551

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by S197 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:31 am

Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:11 pm
S197 wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:36 pm


He makes nowhere near what Kirk makes. You could almost get two Alex Smith's for what we're going to be paying Kirk. He has zero guaranteed salary next year and in 2022 but even if he did, he's still $20 million cheaper than Cousins in 2022.
Not a contract guru here, but Alex signed a 4 year 94M contract with 71M guaranteed, 24M a year, the same year Washington wouldn't but Minny did pay Kirk a 3 year 84M contract? Most Washington fans were furious they wouldn't pay Kirk 28M but did pay captain checkdown 24M and gave up picks and players to do it. Now a lot of that is Brucifer Allen's doing, but nevertheless, the choice is have a chump QB or pay a good one too much.
Yep that’s Smiths contract. But they can cut him and save $14.7M next year (vs the Vikings who have $31M dead cap). Or they can cut him in 2022 and save $21M (vs the Vikings dead cap of $45M). Mostly due to the extension Cousins received. Their initial contracts were closer but now they’re nowhere near the same.
0 x

User avatar
Mothman
Defensive Tackle
Posts: 38250
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:48 am
Location: Chicago, IL
x 368

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by Mothman » Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:53 am

VikingPaul73 wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:45 am
With Rick I was ready to move on a couple of years ago. This last draft has given me pause since it looks SOOOO promising . But you are right, he seems to be bullied by Zimmer. Is he just deferring his picks to zimmer and kubiak?? Seriously how many picks do we say “that’s a Zimmer pick” or “ that’s a Kubiak pick” vs “that’s a spielman pick”??? I can’t think of what a “Spielman pick “ would even mean? What’s his philosophy defensive or offensive??? His only signature pick is a non-pick and trading down
I think you see his philosophy reflected in Zimmer and vice versa. Spielman hired the head coach he wanted and rather than being bullied or intimidated into personnel choices by Zimmer, the two are simply on the same page. One might defer to the other at times but overall, what we've seen on the field over the past 7 seasons is their mutual approach at work.

That's my take anyway. :)
2 x

User avatar
makila
Rookie
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:43 pm
x 21

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by makila » Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:23 am

Mothman wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:53 am
VikingPaul73 wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:45 am
With Rick I was ready to move on a couple of years ago. This last draft has given me pause since it looks SOOOO promising . But you are right, he seems to be bullied by Zimmer. Is he just deferring his picks to zimmer and kubiak?? Seriously how many picks do we say “that’s a Zimmer pick” or “ that’s a Kubiak pick” vs “that’s a spielman pick”??? I can’t think of what a “Spielman pick “ would even mean? What’s his philosophy defensive or offensive??? His only signature pick is a non-pick and trading down
I think you see his philosophy reflected in Zimmer and vice versa. Spielman hired the head coach he wanted and rather than being bullied or intimidated into personnel choices by Zimmer, the two are simply on the same page. One might defer to the other at times but overall, what we've seen on the field over the past 7 seasons is their mutual approach at work.

That's my take anyway. :)
Mine as well. They are married together. No point in getting rid of one. Both should go. This is their mutual vision being executed.
1 x

CharVike
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 219

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by CharVike » Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:58 am

Zimmer gets this team into the post season every other year. In this day and age that's great coaching. He took the team to the championship game with a total stiff at QB. Case is a great backup and I give Speilman credit for bringing him in. But he lacks the physical ability to beat the top dogs. He has zero chance. He proved it the year he had a long run. Every good team he faced made him look like the garbage he is. Even the miracle game he looked bad. After ripping the Eagles on the opening drive they stuffed him. He threw a pick 6 ect... The Eagles made the Super Bowl then missed the playoffs. The Rams made the Super Bowl then missed the playoffs. That's bad coaching. At least make the playoffs. Pete Carroll does a great job with the Hawks. He gets in every year. But then he needs to hit the road and bye bye. He hasn't built a D that's good enough. The guy from the Saints is in every year. They also get the boot every year but one. Last year a wildcard team beat him. A good coach smashes a wildcard team. Andy Reid was always considered a loser. Here's a quote Is Reid running out of time to shake his label as a postseason choker? Right now he has the best QB in the game for nothing. That's a huge advantage. To his credit he has taken advantage of it. Many feel this guy riding on Mahomes back as the next great one. I want to see him take some bum and make him Mahomes. What he does now is easy. Just get out of the way. If they blow it up I'm ok with that. Zimmer probably won't get us there anyway. The new guy can come in and throw the trash out and get his own signal caller. I'll say good luck with that one. You won't find it picking in the mid 1st round. I've seen that play over and over.
0 x

YikesVikes
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1404
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:04 am
x 188

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by YikesVikes » Sat Dec 26, 2020 3:48 pm

Us missing the playoffs this year is a sign of bad coaching. The playoffs have been extended. There are now 7 teams out of 16 possible. We aren't even in the top 7 teams in the conference. This was the year the every other year stat should have changed. The fact is, the Vikings are in a very bad place right now. We are mired in mediocrity. We will have peaks and lows but this is where we can expect to be with this FO. Simply stuck in the middle. With the offensive players we have... we should be much much better.
0 x

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8423
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1026

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:17 pm

CharVike wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:58 am
Zimmer gets this team into the post season every other year. In this day and age that's great coaching. He took the team to the championship game with a total stiff at QB.
No, honestly ... it's not.

Kansas City has been a playoff team 7 of the past 8 years.

The Patriots are missing the playoffs for the first time since 2008 and the second time since 2002.

The 49ers have been to the playoffs as much in the 2010s as the Vikings, with the difference being they've reached two Super Bowls.

The Saints have won six straight division titles.

The Pukers have missed the playoffs a total of six times in the past 27 years.

Mike Tomlin has been the coach of the Steelers since 2007. He has never had a losing season.

John Harbaugh has been coach of the Ravens since 2008. He has one losing season and is closing in on a 9th playoff trip.

These are examples of teams with great coaching.

As for the "stiff" Case Keenum, he finished top-10 in the 2017 MVP voting and was named by his peers to the list of Top-100 NFL players going into 2018 (Keenum finished 51st ... ahead of players like Xavier Rhodes and Stefon Diggs). While it's true he's been anything but an MVP-type player before or since, calling him a stiff for 2017 is far from accurate. Not coincidentally, the Vikings offense in 2017 was coached by Pat Shurmur, who has undoubtedly been our best OC under Zimmer.

Good coaching matters. We don't have it.
2 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

StumpHunter
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2237
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 360

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:38 pm

Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:11 pm
S197 wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:36 pm


He makes nowhere near what Kirk makes. You could almost get two Alex Smith's for what we're going to be paying Kirk. He has zero guaranteed salary next year and in 2022 but even if he did, he's still $20 million cheaper than Cousins in 2022.
Not a contract guru here, but Alex signed a 4 year 94M contract with 71M guaranteed, 24M a year, the same year Washington wouldn't but Minny did pay Kirk a 3 year 84M contract? Most Washington fans were furious they wouldn't pay Kirk 28M but did pay captain checkdown 24M and gave up picks and players to do it. Now a lot of that is Brucifer Allen's doing, but nevertheless, the choice is have a chump QB or pay a good one too much.
You are leaving out the option to draft a really good rookie and pay him pennies compared to what Cousins makes.

Besides, what exactly is overpaying Kirk versus settling for a Fitz or Keenum getting us right now? A lesser team around the QB and absolutely no hope is all I am seeing.
1 x

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8423
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1026

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:46 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:38 pm
Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:11 pm


Not a contract guru here, but Alex signed a 4 year 94M contract with 71M guaranteed, 24M a year, the same year Washington wouldn't but Minny did pay Kirk a 3 year 84M contract? Most Washington fans were furious they wouldn't pay Kirk 28M but did pay captain checkdown 24M and gave up picks and players to do it. Now a lot of that is Brucifer Allen's doing, but nevertheless, the choice is have a chump QB or pay a good one too much.
You are leaving out the option to draft a really good rookie and pay him pennies compared to what Cousins makes.

Besides, what exactly is overpaying Kirk versus settling for a Fitz or Keenum getting us right now? A lesser team around the QB and absolutely no hope is all I am seeing.
You and I don't agree often, StumpHunter, but we do here.

Look, I don't dislike Kirk Cousins. I think he's played admirably this season given the circumstances. Talent-wise, he's been an upgrade over anybody we've had since Favre. His numbers are great. He'll wind up with 4,000+ yards, close to 35 TDs. He's been productive.

However, I think his personality puts a pretty hard ceiling on what he can be.

Aikman said it pretty well yesterday when he said, "Cousins is wound pretty tight." I think that sums it up well. A good example of how this hurts Cousins is the 2-minute drill. There is no doubt that he has the physical ability and the intelligence to lead a team to a score late in a half or game. But SOMETHING always seems to go wrong, and I think at least part of that is due to his penchant for tightening the screws. Like the Saints game at the end of the first half. Yes, the coaching staff screwed the pooch. But a great QB would say, "Screw this" and call a play. I covered Kyle Orton in high school — he did that as an 18-year-old. I remember it well. I was standing on the sideline, and he used those exact words right to his coach. He took charge. Kyle Freaking Orton! But Cousins, a 9th-year pro, panics when the play isn't sent in before the radio cuts off?

Buck and Aikman actually quoted Zimmer as saying the Vikings often call for a quick count simply to keep Cousins from overthinking things at the line. That's not a good thing for a veteran quarterback making $30 million.

Again, Cousins is "not the problem." But at his price, he should be better than "not the problem."

It's probably too cost-prohibitive to release Cousins now, so the point may be moot. But if we look back to early 2018, when the Vikings were deciding who should be the Vikings QB between Case Keenum, Sam Bradford, Teddy Bridgewater, and a free agent, I do not think we're better off for having chosen the free agent. And to be honest, I loved the signing and thought it would take us over the top (same with John DeFilippo ... not my finest hour). I suppose I should have known that a guy who maps out every day in 10-minute increments on an Excel spreadsheet might be wound a LITTLE too tight to be a great quarterback.

Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
0 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

Frozen Rope
Backup
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:27 am
x 53

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by Frozen Rope » Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:04 pm

Mothman wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:53 am
VikingPaul73 wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:45 am
With Rick I was ready to move on a couple of years ago. This last draft has given me pause since it looks SOOOO promising . But you are right, he seems to be bullied by Zimmer. Is he just deferring his picks to zimmer and kubiak?? Seriously how many picks do we say “that’s a Zimmer pick” or “ that’s a Kubiak pick” vs “that’s a spielman pick”??? I can’t think of what a “Spielman pick “ would even mean? What’s his philosophy defensive or offensive??? His only signature pick is a non-pick and trading down
I think you see his philosophy reflected in Zimmer and vice versa. Spielman hired the head coach he wanted and rather than being bullied or intimidated into personnel choices by Zimmer, the two are simply on the same page. One might defer to the other at times but overall, what we've seen on the field over the past 7 seasons is their mutual approach at work.

That's my take anyway. :)
You are correct. They are joined at the hip
0 x

User avatar
makila
Rookie
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:43 pm
x 21

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by makila » Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:06 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:46 pm
Buck and Aikman actually quoted Zimmer as saying the Vikings often call for a quick count simply to keep Cousins from overthinking things at the line. That's not a good thing for a veteran quarterback making $30 million.
I heard this during the game and immediately hit rewind it to make sure I heard it correct. I found it flabbergasting. Maybe I'm naive, I've never heard a HC saying they have to use a quick count to help HIS qb at the LOS. Made me go uhhh what??

Cousins has played good most of this season imo. That was incredibly telling though about limitations though.

And yeah, making the playoffs every other season is middle of the road coaching. Granted, I'll take it over being the Jets, I have higher expectations than that though. Strive to be better than middle of the road, which is where we live now.
0 x

VikeFanInEagleLand
Veteran
Posts: 249
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:31 am
x 78

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:07 pm

makila wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:06 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:46 pm
Buck and Aikman actually quoted Zimmer as saying the Vikings often call for a quick count simply to keep Cousins from overthinking things at the line. That's not a good thing for a veteran quarterback making $30 million.
I heard this during the game and immediately hit rewind it to make sure I heard it correct. I found it flabbergasting. Maybe I'm naive, I've never heard a HC saying they have to use a quick count to help HIS qb at the LOS. Made me go uhhh what??

Cousins has played good most of this season imo. That was incredibly telling though about limitations though.

And yeah, making the playoffs every other season is middle of the road coaching. Granted, I'll take it over being the Jets, I have higher expectations than that though. Strive to be better than middle of the road, which is where we live now.
Honestly, I think this might say more about Zimmer than it does about Cousins. When the Vikings used a time out after running 14 seconds off the clock at the end of the game, Cousins said it was because the headphones went dead and the play call didn't come in. Now, I'm thinking that most veteran QBs under the same scenario would have called a play themselves, but I'm sure Zimmer wouldn't allow Cousins to do that.
1 x

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12469
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 551

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by S197 » Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:11 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:46 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:38 pm


You are leaving out the option to draft a really good rookie and pay him pennies compared to what Cousins makes.

Besides, what exactly is overpaying Kirk versus settling for a Fitz or Keenum getting us right now? A lesser team around the QB and absolutely no hope is all I am seeing.
You and I don't agree often, StumpHunter, but we do here.

Look, I don't dislike Kirk Cousins. I think he's played admirably this season given the circumstances. Talent-wise, he's been an upgrade over anybody we've had since Favre. His numbers are great. He'll wind up with 4,000+ yards, close to 35 TDs. He's been productive.

However, I think his personality puts a pretty hard ceiling on what he can be.

Aikman said it pretty well yesterday when he said, "Cousins is wound pretty tight." I think that sums it up well. A good example of how this hurts Cousins is the 2-minute drill. There is no doubt that he has the physical ability and the intelligence to lead a team to a score late in a half or game. But SOMETHING always seems to go wrong, and I think at least part of that is due to his penchant for tightening the screws. Like the Saints game at the end of the first half. Yes, the coaching staff screwed the pooch. But a great QB would say, "Screw this" and call a play. I covered Kyle Orton in high school — he did that as an 18-year-old. I remember it well. I was standing on the sideline, and he used those exact words right to his coach. He took charge. Kyle Freaking Orton! But Cousins, a 9th-year pro, panics when the play isn't sent in before the radio cuts off?

Buck and Aikman actually quoted Zimmer as saying the Vikings often call for a quick count simply to keep Cousins from overthinking things at the line. That's not a good thing for a veteran quarterback making $30 million.

Again, Cousins is "not the problem." But at his price, he should be better than "not the problem."

It's probably too cost-prohibitive to release Cousins now, so the point may be moot. But if we look back to early 2018, when the Vikings were deciding who should be the Vikings QB between Case Keenum, Sam Bradford, Teddy Bridgewater, and a free agent, I do not think we're better off for having chosen the free agent. And to be honest, I loved the signing and thought it would take us over the top (same with John DeFilippo ... not my finest hour). I suppose I should have known that a guy who maps out every day in 10-minute increments on an Excel spreadsheet might be wound a LITTLE too tight to be a great quarterback.

Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
Like when he was supposed to spike the ball in a 2-minute drill but took a knee instead.

https://streamable.com/01gvlz

I think after the game he said it was due to miscommunication, perhaps the coach told him to take a knee when he meant spike the ball. But just like when your mic cuts out, you have to know the situation and understand what to do. Situational awareness under pressure is huge when you’re a QB, maybe an even bigger trait than something tangible like arm strength. You can’t just go into robot mode and do exactly what you’re told.

I also agree that Cousins isn’t the problem. He’s just not the solution either, not for this team and not for that price.
0 x

CharVike
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:28 pm
x 219

Re: Tell me again how Zimmer is a great coach?

Post by CharVike » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:29 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:17 pm
CharVike wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:58 am
Zimmer gets this team into the post season every other year. In this day and age that's great coaching. He took the team to the championship game with a total stiff at QB.
No, honestly ... it's not.

Kansas City has been a playoff team 7 of the past 8 years.

The Patriots are missing the playoffs for the first time since 2008 and the second time since 2002.

The 49ers have been to the playoffs as much in the 2010s as the Vikings, with the difference being they've reached two Super Bowls.

The Saints have won six straight division titles.

The Pukers have missed the playoffs a total of six times in the past 27 years.

Mike Tomlin has been the coach of the Steelers since 2007. He has never had a losing season.

John Harbaugh has been coach of the Ravens since 2008. He has one losing season and is closing in on a 9th playoff trip.

These are examples of teams with great coaching.

As for the "stiff" Case Keenum, he finished top-10 in the 2017 MVP voting and was named by his peers to the list of Top-100 NFL players going into 2018 (Keenum finished 51st ... ahead of players like Xavier Rhodes and Stefon Diggs). While it's true he's been anything but an MVP-type player before or since, calling him a stiff for 2017 is far from accurate. Not coincidentally, the Vikings offense in 2017 was coached by Pat Shurmur, who has undoubtedly been our best OC under Zimmer.

Good coaching matters. We don't have it.
The stiff beat one team with a winning record in 2017 and it took a miracle for that to happen. He was far from a top QB in 2017. It was a feel good story. Elway found that out the hard way. Tomlin has had a HOF QB. Packers have had back to back HOF QBs. Bellichick had a HOF QB. Now that he don't he can't make the playoffs. The Saints have a HOF QB. HOF QBs don't grow on trees. They are hard to find. Every coach needs players. And to make the Super Bowl they need great players and most importantly a great QB. Jimmy Johnson found that out the hard way also. He went to the Dolphins and couldn't get them to the Super Bowl. That's with a HOF QB. I don't care if we move on from Zimmer. If Tomlin came here I don't see us as a Super Bowl favorite with him. We don't have that talent level. Especially on defense. Bring Eric B here. He better bring Mahomes with him. We don't become Super Bowl contenders with him. Our D isn't good enough and we don't have Rodgers at QB. Perhaps Eric B can build our D up. I don't know. Bring everybody in from KC that they can. They still need to find a top dog QB who plays for nothing. I don't see that in this draft with our projected pick or in FA. Maybe in 2022 or 23 or 24 ect..... When we started this rebuild this year many of us were happy with that fact that maybe we will get the 1st pick and this years stud QB. The kid looks like a great player. Well that won't happen now because we won some meaningless games. That hurt more than it helped. But you can't tell the team to lay down. Players won't do that. Bring in Eric send Kirk to the trash. Maybe we will make the Super Bowl in 2022.
0 x