Need a Change !!!!

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Need a Change !!!!

Post by IIsweet » Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:57 am

So I get that Zimmer cannot control Bailey leaving 10 points out there... Totally understand that. BUT...
Down 23-6 in the 3rd quarter, why are we still constantly running the ball? Why are we throwing to everyone on the roster, when we have Thielen and Jefferson ? Who is calling this nonsense. Get them the Damn ball !!!! What was the game plan? I get it, Cook gets 22 carries 102 yds and a TD. But we were down 3 scores and have 2 of the top WR in the game. Get them the ball !!! TB had just given up over 800 yards and 6TD in the last 2 games to Mahomes and Goff. But the MINNESOTA VIKINGS are in town and they are going to not scheme to win and instead prove that we can run against anyone. Regardless of the fact that the TB secondary is reeling, we are going to win the Time of Possession game. 39 minutes to 21. Congratulations Zimmer, You held the ball longer. What is going on? We had a chance at the playoffs and this is the best coaching job that you can do? Are you unable to adjust your game plan?
Look at the stat line.... We were led by 2 TE's in receiving. 8 receptions by TE and 7 by WR... Whaaaaaat? Thielen and Jefferson a combined 78 yards on 12 total targets ??? Cousins was 24/37 225 and averaged 6 ypa. 12 targets to Thielen and Jefferson combined while 25 targets went to everyone else. Seriously? Can we not scheme plays to get them in space where Thielen catches everything! Where Jefferson has game changing ability!! Let's not overlook that Jefferson has been amazing and actually did not get the starts until into the season. Remember that Bisi Johnson and Beebe started ahead of him. He was 4th on the depth chart at the start of the season for a few games also ! This week, we throw to the TE before our play makers !
Coaching "not to lose" as opposed to coaching "to Win" !!!
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Re: Need a Change !!!!

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:45 am

IIsweet wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:57 am
So I get that Zimmer cannot control Bailey leaving 10 points out there... Totally understand that. BUT...
Down 23-6 in the 3rd quarter, why are we still constantly running the ball? Why are we throwing to everyone on the roster, when we have Thielen and Jefferson ? Who is calling this nonsense. Get them the Damn ball !!!! What was the game plan? I get it, Cook gets 22 carries 102 yds and a TD. But we were down 3 scores and have 2 of the top WR in the game. Get them the ball !!! TB had just given up over 800 yards and 6TD in the last 2 games to Mahomes and Goff. But the MINNESOTA VIKINGS are in town and they are going to not scheme to win and instead prove that we can run against anyone. Regardless of the fact that the TB secondary is reeling, we are going to win the Time of Possession game. 39 minutes to 21. Congratulations Zimmer, You held the ball longer. What is going on? We had a chance at the playoffs and this is the best coaching job that you can do? Are you unable to adjust your game plan?
Look at the stat line.... We were led by 2 TE's in receiving. 8 receptions by TE and 7 by WR... Whaaaaaat? Thielen and Jefferson a combined 78 yards on 12 total targets ??? Cousins was 24/37 225 and averaged 6 ypa. 12 targets to Thielen and Jefferson combined while 25 targets went to everyone else. Seriously? Can we not scheme plays to get them in space where Thielen catches everything! Where Jefferson has game changing ability!! Let's not overlook that Jefferson has been amazing and actually did not get the starts until into the season. Remember that Bisi Johnson and Beebe started ahead of him. He was 4th on the depth chart at the start of the season for a few games also ! This week, we throw to the TE before our play makers !
Coaching "not to lose" as opposed to coaching "to Win" !!!
OK so let's examine exactly what transpired when Tampa Bay went up 23-6

The Vikings took the ball, drove 75 yards down the field, and scored. They passed 9 times, completing 7. They ran 7 times, with one of those coming on a scramble by Cousins (a pass play). So there were 10 pass plays called vs. 6 rushing plays. That's balance. The Vikings scored to make it 23-14 with 1:36 left in the third quarter.

Tampa then went 3-and-out.

The Vikings took the ball at their own 47 after a terrible punt and drove 45 yards to the Tampa Bay 8. On that drive, they called 4 pass plays, completing 2 and Cousins scrambling for a first down on the other. They ran it 5 times for 30 yards. Think about that for a minute. With a balanced drive, the Vikings are 8 yards away from making it a 1- or 2-point game with 10:33 to play. At that point, they called two pass plays — and got sacked on both. That's when Bailey shanked his third field goal.

On the Vikings' final possession, when Tampa Bay knew we'd be throwing every down and pinned their ears back, Cousins was 4-for-9 for 30 yards. Meanwhile, he was sacked two more times. No balance, no success.

Maybe throwing the ball every down against a team that can get after the quarterback isn't the best plan.
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Re: Need a Change !!!!

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:27 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:45 am
IIsweet wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:57 am
So I get that Zimmer cannot control Bailey leaving 10 points out there... Totally understand that. BUT...
Down 23-6 in the 3rd quarter, why are we still constantly running the ball? Why are we throwing to everyone on the roster, when we have Thielen and Jefferson ? Who is calling this nonsense. Get them the Damn ball !!!! What was the game plan? I get it, Cook gets 22 carries 102 yds and a TD. But we were down 3 scores and have 2 of the top WR in the game. Get them the ball !!! TB had just given up over 800 yards and 6TD in the last 2 games to Mahomes and Goff. But the MINNESOTA VIKINGS are in town and they are going to not scheme to win and instead prove that we can run against anyone. Regardless of the fact that the TB secondary is reeling, we are going to win the Time of Possession game. 39 minutes to 21. Congratulations Zimmer, You held the ball longer. What is going on? We had a chance at the playoffs and this is the best coaching job that you can do? Are you unable to adjust your game plan?
Look at the stat line.... We were led by 2 TE's in receiving. 8 receptions by TE and 7 by WR... Whaaaaaat? Thielen and Jefferson a combined 78 yards on 12 total targets ??? Cousins was 24/37 225 and averaged 6 ypa. 12 targets to Thielen and Jefferson combined while 25 targets went to everyone else. Seriously? Can we not scheme plays to get them in space where Thielen catches everything! Where Jefferson has game changing ability!! Let's not overlook that Jefferson has been amazing and actually did not get the starts until into the season. Remember that Bisi Johnson and Beebe started ahead of him. He was 4th on the depth chart at the start of the season for a few games also ! This week, we throw to the TE before our play makers !
Coaching "not to lose" as opposed to coaching "to Win" !!!
OK so let's examine exactly what transpired when Tampa Bay went up 23-6

The Vikings took the ball, drove 75 yards down the field, and scored. They passed 9 times, completing 7. They ran 7 times, with one of those coming on a scramble by Cousins (a pass play). So there were 10 pass plays called vs. 6 rushing plays. That's balance. The Vikings scored to make it 23-14 with 1:36 left in the third quarter.

Tampa then went 3-and-out.

The Vikings took the ball at their own 47 after a terrible punt and drove 45 yards to the Tampa Bay 8. On that drive, they called 4 pass plays, completing 2 and Cousins scrambling for a first down on the other. They ran it 5 times for 30 yards. Think about that for a minute. With a balanced drive, the Vikings are 8 yards away from making it a 1- or 2-point game with 10:33 to play. At that point, they called two pass plays — and got sacked on both. That's when Bailey shanked his third field goal.

On the Vikings' final possession, when Tampa Bay knew we'd be throwing every down and pinned their ears back, Cousins was 4-for-9 for 30 yards. Meanwhile, he was sacked two more times. No balance, no success.

Maybe throwing the ball every down against a team that can get after the quarterback isn't the best plan.
Even though I'm not big proponent of the game time decisions and sometimes game prep of the current coaching staff, I agree with Kapp. And also, it's not just that easy to say you need to get Theilen and Jefferson in open space. If it was THAT easy, you'd just do it all the time. I mean, sometimes people forget that there is an opposing defense of the field to stop you from doing what you'd like to do.
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Re: Need a Change !!!!

Post by IIsweet » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:45 am

You are forgetting... We threw to the TE and WRs not named Thielen. He had 4.... yes 4 targets the entire game. Jefferson had 8 targets. That is more like it, but he only caught 4... why?
It's not just the pass plays... but who we are targeting. Who cares if they know to cover those guys. You still have to throw to them. You create crossing patterns and bunch formations to create separation. You run an occasional gadget play where we handoff to them. They are the playmakers who need the ball in their hands.
Look at the stat line. You honestly think we win games against a playoff caliber team when the 2 leading receivers are TE's not named Kelce, Kittle,or Waller?
Whatever.... keep accepting average and making excuses for average play. Frustrating to be a Viking fan.
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Re: Need a Change !!!!

Post by IIsweet » Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:06 pm

Let's look into some more data !!!
The Vikings have beaten Houston, GB, Detroit, Chicago, Carolina, and Jax. Combined records of those teams is 30-48. In fact, take away the GB win and everyone has a losing record. The records of those is 20-45.... That is who we have beaten, plus the 1 win against GB.
Our losses, the teams are a combined 53-38. GB, Indy, Tennessee, Seattle, Atlanta, Dallas, TB. That is 5 legitimate playoff teams and then a lost Dallas team and an underperforming ATL team with an interim HC.

In other words, if the team is a playoff contender under Zimmer, why do we lose to these teams every week? We are a perennial 6 or 7 seed playoff contender under Zim and co but when will we be a SB contender? Our 2 division winning seasons followed seasons where we were 3rd. The year after being a 1 seed, we immediately fell to 8 win seasons. We had the easy schedule and won when we were supposed.to. Against the better teams, we get beat. Are we better than the previous Frazier era? Absolutely. That was abysmal. They are better under Zimmer than many eras prior. However, do you believe that this staff can win a SB ??? Do you see the vision and plan of development for the future?
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Re: Need a Change !!!!

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:16 pm

IIsweet wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:45 am
You are forgetting... We threw to the TE and WRs not named Thielen. He had 4.... yes 4 targets the entire game. Jefferson had 8 targets. That is more like it, but he only caught 4... why?
It's not just the pass plays... but who we are targeting. Who cares if they know to cover those guys. You still have to throw to them. You create crossing patterns and bunch formations to create separation. You run an occasional gadget play where we handoff to them. They are the playmakers who need the ball in their hands.
Look at the stat line. You honestly think we win games against a playoff caliber team when the 2 leading receivers are TE's not named Kelce, Kittle,or Waller?
Whatever.... keep accepting average and making excuses for average play. Frustrating to be a Viking fan.
The Vikings should hire you. I mean, you make it seem so simple.

On the other hand, I'm wondering if the opponents' pass rush had anything to do with it. I know it's more entertaining to hit Jefferson deep, but it takes a little time for that to happen, which Cousins didn't have when the Bucs knew we were going to throw it. I don't know. Just a guess.

Yes, I do think we win against playoff caliber teams under any other circumstance than Dan Bailey shanking field goals and extra points. If that happens, then you're not making this predictable post today.

And say what you want about coaching, play-calling, game-planning, etc., but the coaches can only work with the guys they have on the roster. From a talent standpoint, the personnel we put out there yesterday simply didn't match up with the Bucs. Yet we dominated everything but the kicking game and the score. If that's not because of coaching, then what is it?

Here's the bottom line, which you obviously aren't going to agree with. The ONLY way the Minnesota Vikings had a chance to win that game yesterday was to establish the run and keep Brady off the field. That's it. Maybe that's not as fun to watch as targeting Jefferson and Thielen 15 times each, but an Air Raid offense was never going to work. The Bucs have better players up and down the roster, especially along the D-line. Plus, they had Bailey kicking for the Vikings and the officials in their hip pocket. So they won. But they did not outplay the Vikings in the other two phases, and the Vikings had something to do with it.

That's why all the talking heads this morning are saying the Bucs are likely to lose in the first round. They got pushed around by less-talented Vikings team.
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Re: Need a Change !!!!

Post by mansquatch » Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:29 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:45 am
IIsweet wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:57 am
So I get that Zimmer cannot control Bailey leaving 10 points out there... Totally understand that. BUT...
Down 23-6 in the 3rd quarter, why are we still constantly running the ball? Why are we throwing to everyone on the roster, when we have Thielen and Jefferson ? Who is calling this nonsense. Get them the Damn ball !!!! What was the game plan? I get it, Cook gets 22 carries 102 yds and a TD. But we were down 3 scores and have 2 of the top WR in the game. Get them the ball !!! TB had just given up over 800 yards and 6TD in the last 2 games to Mahomes and Goff. But the MINNESOTA VIKINGS are in town and they are going to not scheme to win and instead prove that we can run against anyone. Regardless of the fact that the TB secondary is reeling, we are going to win the Time of Possession game. 39 minutes to 21. Congratulations Zimmer, You held the ball longer. What is going on? We had a chance at the playoffs and this is the best coaching job that you can do? Are you unable to adjust your game plan?
Look at the stat line.... We were led by 2 TE's in receiving. 8 receptions by TE and 7 by WR... Whaaaaaat? Thielen and Jefferson a combined 78 yards on 12 total targets ??? Cousins was 24/37 225 and averaged 6 ypa. 12 targets to Thielen and Jefferson combined while 25 targets went to everyone else. Seriously? Can we not scheme plays to get them in space where Thielen catches everything! Where Jefferson has game changing ability!! Let's not overlook that Jefferson has been amazing and actually did not get the starts until into the season. Remember that Bisi Johnson and Beebe started ahead of him. He was 4th on the depth chart at the start of the season for a few games also ! This week, we throw to the TE before our play makers !
Coaching "not to lose" as opposed to coaching "to Win" !!!
OK so let's examine exactly what transpired when Tampa Bay went up 23-6

The Vikings took the ball, drove 75 yards down the field, and scored. They passed 9 times, completing 7. They ran 7 times, with one of those coming on a scramble by Cousins (a pass play). So there were 10 pass plays called vs. 6 rushing plays. That's balance. The Vikings scored to make it 23-14 with 1:36 left in the third quarter.

Tampa then went 3-and-out.

The Vikings took the ball at their own 47 after a terrible punt and drove 45 yards to the Tampa Bay 8. On that drive, they called 4 pass plays, completing 2 and Cousins scrambling for a first down on the other. They ran it 5 times for 30 yards. Think about that for a minute. With a balanced drive, the Vikings are 8 yards away from making it a 1- or 2-point game with 10:33 to play. At that point, they called two pass plays — and got sacked on both. That's when Bailey shanked his third field goal.

On the Vikings' final possession, when Tampa Bay knew we'd be throwing every down and pinned their ears back, Cousins was 4-for-9 for 30 yards. Meanwhile, he was sacked two more times. No balance, no success.

Maybe throwing the ball every down against a team that can get after the quarterback isn't the best plan.
Man it has been awhile. I didn't forget about you guys.

I think in that last series the time on the clock was a consideration in us needing to throw and throw for chunks. Gary Kubiak and the rest of the offense know where their strengths and weaknesses are. That particular situation put them in a really bad spot, one that MOST teams, even great ones, rarely are successful in. I wouldn't get too bent out of shape on the passing offense at the end of the 4Q.

Just to toss it out there: This is a transition year for the secondary, one that has been overall positive. They are playing a lot better now than they were in first part of season. Defense also currently lacks a legitimate pass rusher with Hunter on IR. Losing Barr, Kendricks, and Pearce doesn't help either.

I think this roster, assuming it stays mostly intact in 2021, should be very competitive. Two of the losses to winning teams were by 1 point. This squad, despite it's issues, is not very many plays from being 9-3. Looks to me like the defense is trending in the right direction for 2021, and offense continues to be good, just not prolific. ST issues are a concern, but those should be the easiest to address in the offseason. (relative to holes on offense/defense.) This season has been aggravating for sure, but I think we have a lot to look forward to in 2021.
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Re: Need a Change !!!!

Post by VikingLord » Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:39 pm

IIsweet wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:06 pm
In other words, if the team is a playoff contender under Zimmer, why do we lose to these teams every week? We are a perennial 6 or 7 seed playoff contender under Zim and co but when will we be a SB contender? Our 2 division winning seasons followed seasons where we were 3rd. The year after being a 1 seed, we immediately fell to 8 win seasons. We had the easy schedule and won when we were supposed.to. Against the better teams, we get beat. Are we better than the previous Frazier era? Absolutely. That was abysmal. They are better under Zimmer than many eras prior. However, do you believe that this staff can win a SB ??? Do you see the vision and plan of development for the future?
I think the answer to your first question, at least as it applies to the present, is they're not a playoff contender. To be fair to them, they are "contenders" in the sense that their record puts them in contention for a playoff spot this season, but I think everyone can see they're not ready to actually contend for anything more than that. Once again, that applies to *this* year.

When it comes to next year, assuming a few things normalize like they get a fairly regular offseason, get some key players on defense back, can count on continued growth and progression of their younger players, and maybe even find some more gems in the upcoming draft, I think the expectations for the team can be raised.

That season you mentioned where the Vikings were the 1 seed was the same season where they ended up having to go with their 3rd string journeyman QB who just happened to catch lightning in a bottle, as did the whole team. It was great, but hardly could be expected. How the team did on either side of that year is more likely a reflection of where they really were in terms of potential.

I guess I don't really see where the criticism of the GM and coaches is helpful this year. If anything, the team has held together and continued to outperform my expectations given the challenges they've faced. There are some pretty bad teams in the league this season. You can see how the players on some of them are not fully buying into whatever it is the coaches and GM are doing. The Vikings aren't one of those teams. They're giving it all they've got every week on both sides of the ball. There is no quit in them, and I'm sorry, but if anything that speaks very highly of the coaches at least.

In terms of the GM, I'm going to borrow one of my favorite lines from the movie "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" where Sir Arthur's knights meet up with a sorcerer named Tim and Tim takes them to the Cave of Caerbannog. There is supposed to be a terrible beast guarding this cave, but out comes a rabbit. The knights start to make fun of Tim and tell him he's crazy, but Tim points to the open area in front of the cave and says "Look at the bones!" as the field is littered with human bones. Of course, the rabbit actually tears into the knights when they attack and they have to resort to using the holy hand grenade of Antioch to defeat it, but I digress.

My point is, look at the rookie class Spielman's last draft produced. Look further at some of the other recent drafts and I think you'll see that Spielman has put together a pretty good foundation for the future. Yes, the jury is still out on some of those players, but it's hard not to see that potential and get excited about what it could mean for the overall competitiveness of the team as soon as next season. Couple that talent infusion with the core vets on the team and I think we're having a much different conversation at this point next year.

The loss yesterday is frustrating, as have been a lot of the losses this year. Still, peer past the score and everyone knows the Vikings beat the Bucs up and down the field for the most part on both sides of the ball.

Keep the faith. I do think it will be rewarded.
Last edited by VikingLord on Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Need a Change !!!!

Post by mansquatch » Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:40 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:16 pm
IIsweet wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:45 am
You are forgetting... We threw to the TE and WRs not named Thielen. He had 4.... yes 4 targets the entire game. Jefferson had 8 targets. That is more like it, but he only caught 4... why?
It's not just the pass plays... but who we are targeting. Who cares if they know to cover those guys. You still have to throw to them. You create crossing patterns and bunch formations to create separation. You run an occasional gadget play where we handoff to them. They are the playmakers who need the ball in their hands.
Look at the stat line. You honestly think we win games against a playoff caliber team when the 2 leading receivers are TE's not named Kelce, Kittle,or Waller?
Whatever.... keep accepting average and making excuses for average play. Frustrating to be a Viking fan.
The Vikings should hire you. I mean, you make it seem so simple.

On the other hand, I'm wondering if the opponents' pass rush had anything to do with it. I know it's more entertaining to hit Jefferson deep, but it takes a little time for that to happen, which Cousins didn't have when the Bucs knew we were going to throw it. I don't know. Just a guess.

Yes, I do think we win against playoff caliber teams under any other circumstance than Dan Bailey shanking field goals and extra points. If that happens, then you're not making this predictable post today.

And say what you want about coaching, play-calling, game-planning, etc., but the coaches can only work with the guys they have on the roster. From a talent standpoint, the personnel we put out there yesterday simply didn't match up with the Bucs. Yet we dominated everything but the kicking game and the score. If that's not because of coaching, then what is it?

Here's the bottom line, which you obviously aren't going to agree with. The ONLY way the Minnesota Vikings had a chance to win that game yesterday was to establish the run and keep Brady off the field. That's it. Maybe that's not as fun to watch as targeting Jefferson and Thielen 15 times each, but an Air Raid offense was never going to work. The Bucs have better players up and down the roster, especially along the D-line. Plus, they had Bailey kicking for the Vikings and the officials in their hip pocket. So they won. But they did not outplay the Vikings in the other two phases, and the Vikings had something to do with it.

That's why all the talking heads this morning are saying the Bucs are likely to lose in the first round. They got pushed around by less-talented Vikings team.
That Bucs team is not the juggernaut everyone thought it would be coming into the season. Brady obviously is not the passer he was even 3-4 years ago even if he is too arrogant to admit it. This was apparent in NE last year despite limited talent around him. Now in Tampa he has legitimate offensive talent around him at every skill position nad he still isn't making it happen. Still, they are good enough to play spoiler in the playoffs. Who they knock off remains to be seen. I suspect the Saints are the likely victims.

The best overall NFC team right now is the Rams, but due to bad luck their path to the SB will be at least partially on the road due to NO and GB both playing in weak divisions. I do not see any NFC team capable of competing with KC other than the Rams. SEA and GB are both unbalanced teams that happen to have great QBs. Bucs have an over the hill QB on an otherwise decent roster.
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Re: Need a Change !!!!

Post by mansquatch » Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:42 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:39 pm
IIsweet wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:06 pm
In other words, if the team is a playoff contender under Zimmer, why do we lose to these teams every week? We are a perennial 6 or 7 seed playoff contender under Zim and co but when will we be a SB contender? Our 2 division winning seasons followed seasons where we were 3rd. The year after being a 1 seed, we immediately fell to 8 win seasons. We had the easy schedule and won when we were supposed.to. Against the better teams, we get beat. Are we better than the previous Frazier era? Absolutely. That was abysmal. They are better under Zimmer than many eras prior. However, do you believe that this staff can win a SB ??? Do you see the vision and plan of development for the future?
I think the answer to your first question, at least as it applies to the present, is they're not a playoff contender. To be fair to them, they are "contenders" in the sense that their record puts them in contention for a playoff spot this season, but I think everyone can see they're not ready to actually contend for anything more than that. Once again, that applies to *this* year.

When it comes to next year, assuming a few things normalize like they get a fairly regular offseason, get some key players on defense back, can count on continued growth and progression of their younger players, and maybe even find some more gems in the upcoming draft, I think the expectations for the team can be raised.

That season you mentioned where the Vikings were the 1 seed was the same season where they ended up having to go with their 3rd string journeyman QB who just happened to catch lightning in a bottle, as did the whole team. It was great, but hardly could be expected. How the team did on either side of that year is more likely a reflection of where they really were in terms of potential.

I guess I don't really see where the criticism of the GM and coaches is helpful this year. If anything, the team has held together and continued to outperform my expectations given the challenges they've faced. There are some pretty bad teams in the league this season. You can see how the players on some of them are not fully buying into whatever it is the coaches and GM are doing. The Vikings aren't one of those teams. They're giving it all they've got every week on both sides of the ball. There is no quit in them, and I'm sorry, but if anything that speaks very highly of the coaches at least.

In terms of the GM, I'm going to borrow one of my favorite lines from the movie "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" where Sir Arthur's knights meet up with a sorcerer named Tim and Tim takes them to the Cave of Caerbannog. There is supposed to be a terrible beast guarding this cave, but out comes a rabbit. The knights start to make fun of Tim and tell him he's crazy, but Tim points to the open area in front of the cave and says "Look at the bones!" as the field is littered with human bones. Of course, the rabbit actually tears into the knights when they attack and they have to resort to using the holy hand grenade of Antioch to defeat it, but I digress.

My point is, look at the rookie class Spielman's last draft produced. Look further at some of the other recent drafts and I think you'll see that Spielman has put together a pretty good foundation for the future. Yes, the jury is still out on some of those players, but it's hard not to see that potential and get excited about what it could mean for the overall competitiveness of the team as soon as next season. Couple that talent infusion with the core vets on the team and I think we're having a much different conversation at this point next year.

The loss yesterday is frustrating, as have a lot of the losses been this year. Still, peer past the score and everyone knows the Vikings beat the Bucs up and down the field for the most part on both sides of the ball.

Keep the faith. I do think it will be rewarded.
I'd add to this that at the start of this season most were lamenting that we wasted a SB window. Now 2021 is looking like we might see another one. That is a huge testament to the GM. I just wish they'd find a way to make Cousins play for about $10MM less per season.
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Re: Need a Change !!!!

Post by RhodesFan29 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:50 pm

This isn't Madden, you can't just line up 4-5 wide all game long.
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Re: Need a Change !!!!

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:17 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:39 pm
IIsweet wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:06 pm
In other words, if the team is a playoff contender under Zimmer, why do we lose to these teams every week? We are a perennial 6 or 7 seed playoff contender under Zim and co but when will we be a SB contender? Our 2 division winning seasons followed seasons where we were 3rd. The year after being a 1 seed, we immediately fell to 8 win seasons. We had the easy schedule and won when we were supposed.to. Against the better teams, we get beat. Are we better than the previous Frazier era? Absolutely. That was abysmal. They are better under Zimmer than many eras prior. However, do you believe that this staff can win a SB ??? Do you see the vision and plan of development for the future?
I think the answer to your first question, at least as it applies to the present, is they're not a playoff contender. To be fair to them, they are "contenders" in the sense that their record puts them in contention for a playoff spot this season, but I think everyone can see they're not ready to actually contend for anything more than that. Once again, that applies to *this* year.

When it comes to next year, assuming a few things normalize like they get a fairly regular offseason, get some key players on defense back, can count on continued growth and progression of their younger players, and maybe even find some more gems in the upcoming draft, I think the expectations for the team can be raised.

That season you mentioned where the Vikings were the 1 seed was the same season where they ended up having to go with their 3rd string journeyman QB who just happened to catch lightning in a bottle, as did the whole team. It was great, but hardly could be expected. How the team did on either side of that year is more likely a reflection of where they really were in terms of potential.

I guess I don't really see where the criticism of the GM and coaches is helpful this year. If anything, the team has held together and continued to outperform my expectations given the challenges they've faced. There are some pretty bad teams in the league this season. You can see how the players on some of them are not fully buying into whatever it is the coaches and GM are doing. The Vikings aren't one of those teams. They're giving it all they've got every week on both sides of the ball. There is no quit in them, and I'm sorry, but if anything that speaks very highly of the coaches at least.

In terms of the GM, I'm going to borrow one of my favorite lines from the movie "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" where Sir Arthur's knights meet up with a sorcerer named Tim and Tim takes them to the Cave of Caerbannog. There is supposed to be a terrible beast guarding this cave, but out comes a rabbit. The knights start to make fun of Tim and tell him he's crazy, but Tim points to the open area in front of the cave and says "Look at the bones!" as the field is littered with human bones. Of course, the rabbit actually tears into the knights when they attack and they have to resort to using the holy hand grenade of Antioch to defeat it, but I digress.

My point is, look at the rookie class Spielman's last draft produced. Look further at some of the other recent drafts and I think you'll see that Spielman has put together a pretty good foundation for the future. Yes, the jury is still out on some of those players, but it's hard not to see that potential and get excited about what it could mean for the overall competitiveness of the team as soon as next season. Couple that talent infusion with the core vets on the team and I think we're having a much different conversation at this point next year.

The loss yesterday is frustrating, as have been a lot of the losses this year. Still, peer past the score and everyone knows the Vikings beat the Bucs up and down the field for the most part on both sides of the ball.

Keep the faith. I do think it will be rewarded.
Virtually EVERYONE busted on Rick Spielman and his 15 draft picks in a year when there would be no OTAs and no preseason.

But let's now look at that draft class.

Justin Jefferson — Not sure what needs to be said here. A sure-fire pro bowler, odds-on for OROY, and perhaps even an all-pro as a rookie.
Jeff Gladney — Has gone through growing pains but is playing better and better every week. Hist talent is obvious — I look for him to break out in '21.
Ezra Cleveland — A rookie starter playing out of position and more than holding his own.
Cam Dantzler — Another rookie starter at corner who also gets better every week and has tremendous upside.
D.J. Wonnum — Without a doubt, the surprise of the draft and a definite candidate to break out in '21 with a full offseason under Andre Patterson.
James Lynch — A developmental DT for sure but has had some good moments in limited action. There is certainly potential.
Troy Dye — Another rookie starter, albeit due to Kendricks' injury. He's improving every week, as well.
Harrison Hand — A developmental corner who has been thrust into action due to injuries and has gained valuable experience.

That's just the first eight, all of whom have contributed, while six of them have started games. Name me another team that has that kind of record ANY YEAR with their draft picks. In addition, K.J. Osborn has been the return man and Josh Metellus has gotten time on special teams and some defensive snaps. So we're talking 10 players who have contributed. I would venture a guess there isn't another team in the NFL with 10 rookies who have even been on the game-day roster.

Now add in 2019, with Bradbury, Irv Smith, Mattison, Watts and Epps, and you're talking 15 players in two years who are playing regularly and contributing.

The Vikings are building a good roster. I like the potential for 2021, and even better for 2022. The ONLY problem with 2022 is Kirk Cousins and his $45 million cap hit. Let's hope the economy rebounds and the cap jumps for that year.
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Re: Need a Change !!!!

Post by VikeFanInEagleLand » Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:39 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:39 pm


I guess I don't really see where the criticism of the GM and coaches is helpful this year. If anything, the team has held together and continued to outperform my expectations given the challenges they've faced. There are some pretty bad teams in the league this season. You can see how the players on some of them are not fully buying into whatever it is the coaches and GM are doing. The Vikings aren't one of those teams. They're giving it all they've got every week on both sides of the ball. There is no quit in them, and I'm sorry, but if anything that speaks very highly of the coaches at least.
I agree that there are positive things to be said about Zimmer and the coaching staff, and I'm certainly not calling for them to get fired. What I do see, too often, are the Vikings losing to teams that they are better than. I feel that falls on the coaches. I also go crazy at many of the game time decisions and clock management. It's maddening.

I do agree that this team is showing promise. I no longer worry that Cousins can't lead a team to the Super Bowl. I think he can. I'm excited for what the next few years can bring.
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Re: Need a Change !!!!

Post by Raz » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:44 pm

Keep in mind in the nfc things are changing the bucs aren’t that good New Orleans is not what they used to be Erin is getting older maybe the Vikings can rise at the right time. A lot of good pieces here.
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Re: Need a Change !!!!

Post by VikingPaul73 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:21 pm

And what? 7 picks in first 4 rounds in April??
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