The Bucs Stop Here

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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by 4mnvikings82 » Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:47 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:36 pm
Thaumaturgist wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:24 pm


Or he's learned from mistakes. That's something I'm comfortable with.
He still did not learn from his mistakes, remember when Zimmer decided to go for it instead of kicking the field goal and it costs the game against the Seahawks a few weeks ago?
Maybe he didn't have any Confidence in Bailey back then
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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by Texas Vike » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:01 am

Solid take, Viking Lord, per usual. I agree with every line.

I was pleasantly surprised in the 1st quarter with the way we moved the ball and simply looked like the more determined team; the team that desired the win more. But then things just had that Vikings sort of way of unraveling. We actually PLAYED better than I thought we would and we looked to be the superior team. We did the small things poorly and had biased refs and a yip-plagued kicker ruin the efforts of the rest of the team. It was frustrating to watch precisely BECAUSE we were outplaying them, yet the scoreboard didn't show it. I can see why posters are finding silver linings from this game, though. We have a core nucleus that is young and gelling together reasonably well.

One of my favorite plays was the 2 point conversion. Looks like Kubes realized that JJ is vicious after the catch. Nice design, and of course he got in.
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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:53 am

Texas Vike wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:01 am
Solid take, Viking Lord, per usual. I agree with every line.

I was pleasantly surprised in the 1st quarter with the way we moved the ball and simply looked like the more determined team; the team that desired the win more. But then things just had that Vikings sort of way of unraveling. We actually PLAYED better than I thought we would and we looked to be the superior team. We did the small things poorly and had biased refs and a yip-plagued kicker ruin the efforts of the rest of the team. It was frustrating to watch precisely BECAUSE we were outplaying them, yet the scoreboard didn't show it. I can see why posters are finding silver linings from this game, though. We have a core nucleus that is young and gelling together reasonably well.

One of my favorite plays was the 2 point conversion. Looks like Kubes realized that JJ is vicious after the catch. Nice design, and of course he got in.
JJ seems really tough to bring down for a lot of CBs.

Other positives from the game would be how effective the TEs were without Rudy on the field. I hate to say it because Rudy seems like really great person, but he is hurting this team when it is outside of the red zone.

I am wondering if people are concerned at all about the fact we had no real pass rush yet again, guys were getting open consistently on our secondary, and that the Oline still seems like a liability? Seems like there were significant issues outside of the kicker and the refs that might be getting overlooked.
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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:21 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:53 am
Texas Vike wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:01 am
Solid take, Viking Lord, per usual. I agree with every line.

I was pleasantly surprised in the 1st quarter with the way we moved the ball and simply looked like the more determined team; the team that desired the win more. But then things just had that Vikings sort of way of unraveling. We actually PLAYED better than I thought we would and we looked to be the superior team. We did the small things poorly and had biased refs and a yip-plagued kicker ruin the efforts of the rest of the team. It was frustrating to watch precisely BECAUSE we were outplaying them, yet the scoreboard didn't show it. I can see why posters are finding silver linings from this game, though. We have a core nucleus that is young and gelling together reasonably well.

One of my favorite plays was the 2 point conversion. Looks like Kubes realized that JJ is vicious after the catch. Nice design, and of course he got in.
JJ seems really tough to bring down for a lot of CBs.

Other positives from the game would be how effective the TEs were without Rudy on the field. I hate to say it because Rudy seems like really great person, but he is hurting this team when it is outside of the red zone.

I am wondering if people are concerned at all about the fact we had no real pass rush yet again, guys were getting open consistently on our secondary, and that the Oline still seems like a liability? Seems like there were significant issues outside of the kicker and the refs that might be getting overlooked.
Sure, I'm concerned about those things. But look at who we were trotting out there. Let's not forget, we're still missing all those defensive starters — Kendricks, Barr, Hunter, Pierce. We haven't had a pass rush all season. And our O-line just helped the Vikings rush for 162 yards against a defense that was giving up 74 per game. Pass blocking was poor in the second half, but at one point you had Samia at RG and Cleveland at RT because of injuries.

At the end of the day, you have to overcome adversity, and the Vikings just didn't get it done yesterday. Everyone in that locker room would tell you that (of course if you gave them sodium pentathol, they'd also tell you the both the refs and Dan Bailey sucked). But there's also reason for optimism. They were 8 yards from making it a 23-21 game in the 4th quarter (probably 23-20 or 23-22, as I seriously doubt Zimmer would have let Bailey kick the extra point). They showed a lot of heart in the face of the worst kicking performance in nearly 60 years. Mix these young guys and the experience they're getting with the return of some key vets, and we could be pretty good next year.

You're definitely right about the tight ends. Not only did they have 9 catches on 9 targets for 103 yards between them, but Kirk threw the ball more to them than he ever has thrown to Rudolph. To me, that means they're getting open, and Rudolph isn't.

Tell you what. If Tampa faces Washington in the playoffs, the Bucs will lose. Brady proved, even with a whimper of a pass rush — you get anywhere near him, he's terrible. That D-line of Washington's will eat him alive.
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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by Cliff » Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:08 am

I thought the offense looked good mostly but looking good isn't enough, you've got to score points. Only getting 6 points out of the offense when it's doing that well is terrible. The missing starters were obviously a factor as they have been much of the season. I was impressed by Kirk's poise and scrambling during the game for the most part.

Special teams was horrible. The score is what it is. People want to talk about Bailey's missing 10 points as if he isn't part of the team. It's really a testament to how much we fans tend to take special teams points for granted.

I'm not even going to bother discussing the defense. They're banged up and young and blah blah blah. The end result is that they're just not a good unit right now.

The Vikings played their first above average team in a while and were brought back down to earth a bit. That defense simply cannot complete with decent teams.

I'm also more and more convinced that Zimmer doesn't really have a feel for coaching an "offensive team" which is what the 2020 Vikings are.
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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:30 am

Cliff wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:08 am
I thought the offense looked good mostly but looking good isn't enough, you've got to score points. Only getting 6 points out of the offense when it's doing that well is terrible. The missing starters were obviously a factor as they have been much of the season. I was impressed by Kirk's poise and scrambling during the game for the most part.

Special teams was horrible. The score is what it is. People want to talk about Bailey's missing 10 points as if he isn't part of the team. It's really a testament to how much we fans tend to take special teams points for granted.

I'm not even going to bother discussing the defense. They're banged up and young and blah blah blah. The end result is that they're just not a good unit right now.

The Vikings played their first above average team in a while and were brought back down to earth a bit. That defense simply cannot complete with decent teams.

I'm also more and more convinced that Zimmer doesn't really have a feel for coaching an "offensive team" which is what the 2020 Vikings are.
I don't know about your comments about the defense. Until the last couple minutes, when Tampa Bay was running out the clock, our undermanned defense had given up less than 300 total yards. Granted, Tampa Bay only held the ball for 21 minutes, but that's winning football. Tampa Bay, which lives on explosive plays, had just two. And I mentioned this in another post — 17 of Tampa Bay's points came after missed field goals. They're back-breakers.

Which brings us to special teams. You're right ... we take special teams for granted, but if this game proves anything, it's that special teams really are a third of the formula. Marwan Malouf has to go. This is an ongoing problem, not just with Bailey's kicks, but the impending feel of doom every time that unit takes the field. You just KNOW the team itself feels the same way. There are guys who really coach special teams well — Joe Judge, now the head coach in New York, comes to mind. I think this organization HAS to prioritize finding a great special teams coach this offseason. That's a huge area of opportunity that can be fixed with almost no salary cap implications. Well, except cutting Dan Bailey ... almost unbelievably, if we cut him before June 1, we still take a $400,000 dead cap hit for 2021.
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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:48 am

PFF just posted their stats for the game yesterday, and boy did our rookies not look good.

I will avoid bringing grades into this, since many don't trust them (and for good reason), but the actual impact our rookies had was less than ideal.

Starting out with Cleveland (who did not play any snaps at RT): 8 pressures given up, 3 sacks given up +2 hits on the QB. He did supposedly have a great game run blocking according to PFF, and based on the results of what I saw while watching the game, I would agree with that. He was awful pass blocking though, and had the worst game of any RG in week 14, possibly all year.

CBs:
Gladney: Only gave up 31 yards but a poor decision to grab Evans in the end zone while he was falling down lead to a PI and eventual TD. He also had 2 missed tackles, an area where he has been really good in the past.

Dantzler: He too gave up only 42 yards, but PFF hated his play yesterday for whatever reason.

Seemed like guys were open a lot and Brady was struggling to hit open receivers early. Better than earlier in the year, but still not close to being good enough.

Dline:
Wonnum: 0 pressures on 15 pass rushes, was supposedly good against the run
Lynch: 7 snaps total and did have a stop, was supposedly good against the run
Dye: 0 impact

Whatever TB did to Jefferson, I expect other teams to emulate going forward. He was still solid, but he typically averages 2.66 yards per route run and he only averaged .97 Sunday.

Other players of note:
O'Neil had a good game and Hill looks to have done well, giving up 0 pressures in his 14 pass blocking snaps.
Dozier continues to be one of the worst LGs in the NFL, giving up 4 pressures and a sack.
Beebe ran 24 routes, and had 0 yards. Only 3 WRs ran more than 10 routes and had 0 receiving yards on Sunday and Beebe was the only WR who ran more than 20 routes and had 0 yards. That is with all of the attention by the D going towards stopping Thielen and Jefferson. He is terrible.
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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by VikingLord » Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:51 pm

Cliff wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:08 am
The Vikings played their first above average team in a while and were brought back down to earth a bit. That defense simply cannot complete with decent teams.

I'm also more and more convinced that Zimmer doesn't really have a feel for coaching an "offensive team" which is what the 2020 Vikings are.
Were they?

They held the Bucs to 20:57 TOP. Gave up 17 first downs.

I mean yeah, Brady got them a few times, but the refs got them more IMHO.

But I think saying they can't compete with decent teams is a bit too far, at least if we're going off of what actually happened yesterday.

I also don't agree with your take on the offense. First, Zimmer isn't the OC - Kubiak is, and that Kubiak offense statistically ranks 7th in YPG. Now that doesn't prove they're awesome, but it's a bit of a stretch to say they're not that good.

This is especially true given the struggles of the interior OL to start the year. Yesterday there were multiple injuries along the OL during the game, forcing Samia in and someone to shift to right tackle at one point. That against what pretty much is one of, if not the, best defensive fronts overall in the league this year. It made a difference late, especially in terms of pass blocking.

I just don't think they were brought back to earth yesterday, unless you consider the refs making and missing lots of critical, questionable calls and Dan Bailey missing lots of field goals as the definition of that. The Bucs were very fortunate to escape with a win yesterday, and if I'm a Bucs fan, I'm cringing thinking about what that team is going to do in the playoffs.
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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by VikingLord » Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:57 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:48 am
CBs:
Gladney: Only gave up 31 yards but a poor decision to grab Evans in the end zone while he was falling down lead to a PI and eventual TD. He also had 2 missed tackles, an area where he has been really good in the past.
BS call in that situation. Evans fell down, and based on the replays I watched it was Evans grabbing on to Gladney and not the other way around.

The missed tackles hurt.
StumpHunter wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:48 am
Dantzler: He too gave up only 42 yards, but PFF hated his play yesterday for whatever reason.

Seemed like guys were open a lot and Brady was struggling to hit open receivers early. Better than earlier in the year, but still not close to being good enough.
Dantzler should have gotten burned on that early deep route by Gronk that Brady badly overthrew. Other than that I thought he played pretty well.

Agree with you that there were some very open Buc receivers that Brady just flat out missed a few times.
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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by S197 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:28 pm

I'm curious why Bisi isn't our #3 WR. He looked pretty good in relief when Thielen was out. Why do we continually trot Beebe out there and throw go routes to Sharpe. Both Thielen and JJ can play in the slot so it would seem they could put Bisi wherever he's comfortable. Beebe wouldn't be so bad if his hands weren't suspect. He had that nice TD a couple weeks back but otherwise he's pretty invisible.
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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:32 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:30 am
Cliff wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:08 am
I thought the offense looked good mostly but looking good isn't enough, you've got to score points. Only getting 6 points out of the offense when it's doing that well is terrible. The missing starters were obviously a factor as they have been much of the season. I was impressed by Kirk's poise and scrambling during the game for the most part.

Special teams was horrible. The score is what it is. People want to talk about Bailey's missing 10 points as if he isn't part of the team. It's really a testament to how much we fans tend to take special teams points for granted.

I'm not even going to bother discussing the defense. They're banged up and young and blah blah blah. The end result is that they're just not a good unit right now.

The Vikings played their first above average team in a while and were brought back down to earth a bit. That defense simply cannot complete with decent teams.

I'm also more and more convinced that Zimmer doesn't really have a feel for coaching an "offensive team" which is what the 2020 Vikings are.
I don't know about your comments about the defense. Until the last couple minutes, when Tampa Bay was running out the clock, our undermanned defense had given up less than 300 total yards. Granted, Tampa Bay only held the ball for 21 minutes, but that's winning football. Tampa Bay, which lives on explosive plays, had just two. And I mentioned this in another post — 17 of Tampa Bay's points came after missed field goals. They're back-breakers.

Which brings us to special teams. You're right ... we take special teams for granted, but if this game proves anything, it's that special teams really are a third of the formula. Marwan Malouf has to go. This is an ongoing problem, not just with Bailey's kicks, but the impending feel of doom every time that unit takes the field. You just KNOW the team itself feels the same way. There are guys who really coach special teams well — Joe Judge, now the head coach in New York, comes to mind. I think this organization HAS to prioritize finding a great special teams coach this offseason. That's a huge area of opportunity that can be fixed with almost no salary cap implications. Well, except cutting Dan Bailey ... almost unbelievably, if we cut him before June 1, we still take a $400,000 dead cap hit for 2021.
I do not see Malouf getting fired since it is only his first year here
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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:19 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:32 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:30 am

I don't know about your comments about the defense. Until the last couple minutes, when Tampa Bay was running out the clock, our undermanned defense had given up less than 300 total yards. Granted, Tampa Bay only held the ball for 21 minutes, but that's winning football. Tampa Bay, which lives on explosive plays, had just two. And I mentioned this in another post — 17 of Tampa Bay's points came after missed field goals. They're back-breakers.

Which brings us to special teams. You're right ... we take special teams for granted, but if this game proves anything, it's that special teams really are a third of the formula. Marwan Malouf has to go. This is an ongoing problem, not just with Bailey's kicks, but the impending feel of doom every time that unit takes the field. You just KNOW the team itself feels the same way. There are guys who really coach special teams well — Joe Judge, now the head coach in New York, comes to mind. I think this organization HAS to prioritize finding a great special teams coach this offseason. That's a huge area of opportunity that can be fixed with almost no salary cap implications. Well, except cutting Dan Bailey ... almost unbelievably, if we cut him before June 1, we still take a $400,000 dead cap hit for 2021.
I do not see Malouf getting fired since it is only his first year here
It's his second. And we weren't particularly good last year.

I can't see him being retained for 2021.
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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:25 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:19 pm
RandyMoss84 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:32 pm


I do not see Malouf getting fired since it is only his first year here
It's his second. And we weren't particularly good last year.

I can't see him being retained for 2021.
I am not sure about that, Vikings kept Priefer for 7 years and refused to fire him until Priefer finally left on his own, I can see Vikings keeping Malouf for 7 years or longer because Vikings are too stubborn to fire anyone
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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:55 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:25 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:19 pm

It's his second. And we weren't particularly good last year.

I can't see him being retained for 2021.
I am not sure about that, Vikings kept Priefer for 7 years and refused to fire him until Priefer finally left on his own, I can see Vikings keeping Malouf for 7 years or longer because Vikings are too stubborn to fire anyone
John DeFillipo and Norv Turner come to mind as coaches Zimmer has not been too stubborn to fire. And Turner was his buddy from their Dallas days.

You can see it on the sidelines when STs mess up. Zimmer is furious at Maalouf, and rightfully so. You battle and battle offensively and defensively, and then special teams comes in for 8 plays a game and about a minute and a half of game time and loses it for you? It's been an absolute nightmare of blocked punts, missed kicks, penalties ... even a successful fake punt that got called back.

I don't know where you get this narrative of Zimmer being too stubborn to let coaches go, but the history just doesn't match. And for the record, Vikings special teams under Mike Priefer were pretty darned good. He made Marcus Sherels the primary punt returner in 2012, and Sherels ended up with a franchise-record 5 punt-return TDs over the next five years. Priefer was NFL Special Teams Coach of the Year in 2012, so his peers clearly thought he was doing a good job. And when Zimmer couldn't coach the Dallas game in 2016 because of his eye surgery, he named Priefer the interim head coach for that game. The Vikings and Zimmer clearly thought highly of Priefer, which is why he was never fired (not because Zimmer was stubborn). The only reason he left was because Cleveland is his hometown, and he had a chance to coach there.

Right about now, I'd donate a kidney to have Priefer back.
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Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by RandyMoss84 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:04 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:55 pm
RandyMoss84 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:25 pm


I am not sure about that, Vikings kept Priefer for 7 years and refused to fire him until Priefer finally left on his own, I can see Vikings keeping Malouf for 7 years or longer because Vikings are too stubborn to fire anyone
John DeFillipo and Norv Turner come to mind as coaches Zimmer has not been too stubborn to fire. And Turner was his buddy from their Dallas days.

You can see it on the sidelines when STs mess up. Zimmer is furious at Maalouf, and rightfully so. You battle and battle offensively and defensively, and then special teams comes in for 8 plays a game and about a minute and a half of game time and loses it for you? It's been an absolute nightmare of blocked punts, missed kicks, penalties ... even a successful fake punt that got called back.

I don't know where you get this narrative of Zimmer being too stubborn to let coaches go, but the history just doesn't match. And for the record, Vikings special teams under Mike Priefer were pretty darned good. He made Marcus Sherels the primary punt returner in 2012, and Sherels ended up with a franchise-record 5 punt-return TDs over the next five years. Priefer was NFL Special Teams Coach of the Year in 2012, so his peers clearly thought he was doing a good job. And when Zimmer couldn't coach the Dallas game in 2016 because of his eye surgery, he named Priefer the interim head coach for that game. The Vikings and Zimmer clearly thought highly of Priefer, which is why he was never fired (not because Zimmer was stubborn). The only reason he left was because Cleveland is his hometown, and he had a chance to coach there.

Right about now, I'd donate a kidney to have Priefer back.
:lol: :thumbsup:
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