The Bucs Stop Here

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12469
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 551

Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by S197 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:41 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:24 pm
S197 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:51 pm


I more or less went out of my way to not talk about the 2020 draft class because it's early and players need to acclimate. My only statement was that snaps doesn't equate to success. I just think it's wrong to say, "wow look how many rookies are playing, such a great sign" when really they're thrust into playing because there's no real other options. If Dantzler and Gladney don't play, we're putting guys like Hill (now cut), Boyd, Hand, Jones etc. out there. So it's not exactly like they're beating out solid competition.

I don't see it as half empty. I mentioned Dantzler was covering Chark and Godwin the last two weeks and both had very quiet games. I even talked about some progress on the O-line and was given flak for it. Which is all good but it's not like everything I've said is negative.

Let's try from a different perspective. Would it be fair to say 4th and 5th round picks aren't throwaway picks? You're not going to hit on a Diggs in the 5th every year but you can find very solid contributors in the middle of the draft. Guys like an Everson Griffen or Brian Robison as an example. Let's take a look at the last five years, excluding 2020 because it's too early to call. This is the list.

TJ Clemmings - Huge bust
Mycole Pruitt - Miss
Stefon Diggs - Homerun
Willie Beavers - Huge bust
Kentrel Brothers - Special teams LB
Jaleel Johnson - Underperforming starter
Ben Gedeon - Marginal mike LB
Rodney Adams - Cut before the season
Danny Isidora - miss
Jaylyn Holmes - Unproductive DE by even your account
Tyler Conklin - Solid run blocking TE
Daniel Carlson - Cut
Dru Samia - Huge bust
Cam Smith - Tough break with his condition but he didn't really see the field even when healthy

I'd say that's a decent sample size. Out of 14 I'd say Diggs, Conklin and Gedeon panned out. Is my glass really half empty when 21% of the picks in the last 5 years pan out?

This is why I'm saying our strategy worries me. We need guys like Wonnum, Lynch, Dye, Hand etc to work out. History says maybe one of them actually pans out. That's on top of guys like Cleveland, Dantzler and Gladney also needing to be hits.

I don't care for PFF's line grades but if they're saying Bradbury is that good then that's encouraging. I'll take it and rescind my comment on him for now. But what about guard? Who is the last decent guard we've had? If I'm feeling generous maybe Fusco? That was 9 years ago.

You guys are making it out like I'm looking very short term when in fact my concerns are because of Rick's long term track record particularly at certain positions.
I understand your entire argument and thesis here. I really do.

The problem is that it misses the point.

The point was that many of us have optimism for next year.

I've given plenty of reasons why I have that optimism, based on how I feel the rookies and young guys are playing this year. I'm looking at this year, what we have coming back next year, and feeling bullish.

You've given me the past as a reason for being bearish.

Yes, I realize you've pointed out a pattern, one that we all have seen. And yes, that pattern is continuing this year. Unless we win out, we won't make the playoffs, which means the every-other-year trend will continue.

But here's the thing. If I said, "The every-other-year pattern means we're GUARANTEED to make the playoffs next year," you'd hammer me for that, and rightly so.

Then why is it OK to use past years as a precursor to what's going to happen in 2021? You can't use the pattern to support a negative argument if I can't support it to support a positive one, can you?

I believe you have to look at each year as its own entity. And when I see the way the rookies and second-year players are developing, along with the talent we should have returning, I'm optimistic about next year. That doesn't mean a thing ... we could go 2-14. But I'll tell you what. Give Jefferson, Gladney, Dantzler, Wonnum and others OTAs, a full camp and preseason, and I wouldn't be surprised at a division title and high seed, either.

And for the record, I don't think there were many Vikings fans on this board who expected big things this year, if we're all being honest. We lost four defensive starters in the offseason, and we had no idea Jefferson would be Jefferson. Everyone here expected a dropoff. To my mind, the fact that we're still in the playoff picture entering Week 15 is a positive. Because I honestly didn't expect it.
I understand your optimism and looking at this season as standalone. For me this is year 7 with Zimmer and 10+ with Spielman depending on how much you want to give him credit when he was director of personnel. Zimmer isn’t Childress and Spielman isn’t Foley so in that sense they’re a lot more polarizing because both the bulls and the bears can make a pretty solid case for one or both of them.

In my case, a guy who was bullish can even capitulate to a bear. But I don’t want to be too much of a downer because that’s no fun and I don’t want to bring down other people’s optimism, so perhaps I should leave it at that. And while not certainly a guarantee I do think this team has a pretty good shot of making the post season next year.
0 x

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8423
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1026

Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:21 am

S197 wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:41 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:24 pm

I understand your entire argument and thesis here. I really do.

The problem is that it misses the point.

The point was that many of us have optimism for next year.

I've given plenty of reasons why I have that optimism, based on how I feel the rookies and young guys are playing this year. I'm looking at this year, what we have coming back next year, and feeling bullish.

You've given me the past as a reason for being bearish.

Yes, I realize you've pointed out a pattern, one that we all have seen. And yes, that pattern is continuing this year. Unless we win out, we won't make the playoffs, which means the every-other-year trend will continue.

But here's the thing. If I said, "The every-other-year pattern means we're GUARANTEED to make the playoffs next year," you'd hammer me for that, and rightly so.

Then why is it OK to use past years as a precursor to what's going to happen in 2021? You can't use the pattern to support a negative argument if I can't support it to support a positive one, can you?

I believe you have to look at each year as its own entity. And when I see the way the rookies and second-year players are developing, along with the talent we should have returning, I'm optimistic about next year. That doesn't mean a thing ... we could go 2-14. But I'll tell you what. Give Jefferson, Gladney, Dantzler, Wonnum and others OTAs, a full camp and preseason, and I wouldn't be surprised at a division title and high seed, either.

And for the record, I don't think there were many Vikings fans on this board who expected big things this year, if we're all being honest. We lost four defensive starters in the offseason, and we had no idea Jefferson would be Jefferson. Everyone here expected a dropoff. To my mind, the fact that we're still in the playoff picture entering Week 15 is a positive. Because I honestly didn't expect it.
I understand your optimism and looking at this season as standalone. For me this is year 7 with Zimmer and 10+ with Spielman depending on how much you want to give him credit when he was director of personnel. Zimmer isn’t Childress and Spielman isn’t Foley so in that sense they’re a lot more polarizing because both the bulls and the bears can make a pretty solid case for one or both of them.

In my case, a guy who was bullish can even capitulate to a bear. But I don’t want to be too much of a downer because that’s no fun and I don’t want to bring down other people’s optimism, so perhaps I should leave it at that. And while not certainly a guarantee I do think this team has a pretty good shot of making the post season next year.
Hey, let me tell you something. You add a lot to the conversation. Your takes are intelligent and measured. There's nothing wrong with that. And you don't get personal, which I appreciate. So hang in there, and keep adding your perspective.

In the end, we all want the same thing — a Super Bowl Trophy in Minnesota (I won't even call it the Lombardi Trophy, so much is my disdain for all things Packer).

I will admit, it really is unfortunate we can't get all three phases of the game clicking at the same time. At one point or another in the Spielman/Zimmer era, each has been really good, but not at the same time. 2017 was the closest. I mean, if we could combine the 2016-17 defense with this offense, and maybe Blair Walsh's rookie year for special teams ... then we'd have something!
1 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8423
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1026

Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:41 pm

Oh my gosh, did you guys see the end of the Bucs-Falcons game today?

Third down, Bucs up 4, in the Atlanta red zone, less than a minute to play. The Falcons are out of time outs, so if Tampa makes the first down, the game is over.

Tampa guy runs the ball and is tackled what appears to be clearly short of the line to gain.

Refs give the Bucs a generous spot. What a surprise.

Then they measure. They're an inch short. Ref still signals first down. What?

Then they review. The guy clearly comes up at least a half yard short, maybe more. "The ruling on the field stands," says the ref.

Brady kneels. Game over.

I realize the actual likelihood of Atlanta driving the length of the field in less than a minute was remote. But man, if there were ever a case of the fix being in, this was it. Even Moose Johnston hinted at the NFL badly wanting Brady in the playoffs.
1 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

User avatar
Bowhunting Viking
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 725
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:39 am
Location: Convoy, Ohio
x 380

Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by Bowhunting Viking » Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:15 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:41 pm
Oh my gosh, did you guys see the end of the Bucs-Falcons game today?

Third down, Bucs up 4, in the Atlanta red zone, less than a minute to play. The Falcons are out of time outs, so if Tampa makes the first down, the game is over.

Tampa guy runs the ball and is tackled what appears to be clearly short of the line to gain.

Refs give the Bucs a generous spot. What a surprise.

Then they measure. They're an inch short. Ref still signals first down. What?

Then they review. The guy clearly comes up at least a half yard short, maybe more. "The ruling on the field stands," says the ref.

Brady kneels. Game over.

I realize the actual likelihood of Atlanta driving the length of the field in less than a minute was remote. But man, if there were ever a case of the fix being in, this was it. Even Moose Johnston hinted at the NFL badly wanting Brady in the playoffs.
Only one thing to say here Kapp

It's SICKENING!!!

OK 2 THINGS...

It's TOTAL ####!!!!
0 x
I just wanna die as a Super Bowl Champion Viking Fan!!

User avatar
Bowhunting Viking
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 725
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:39 am
Location: Convoy, Ohio
x 380

Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by Bowhunting Viking » Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:16 pm

And that ####!!!!! would have read BULLS...!!
0 x
I just wanna die as a Super Bowl Champion Viking Fan!!

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8423
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1026

Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:37 pm

Bowhunting Viking wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:16 pm
And that ####!!!!! would have read BULLS...!!
There have been years where the NFL's bias was so obvious that it was worse than the 1919 Black Sox scandal.

2009 New Orleans. Poor Saints fans. Katrina. We love Drew Brees.

2020 Tampa Bay Buccaneers. The Brady/Gronk Swan Song. Tom's the G.O.A.T. Covid. Super Bowl in Tampa.

Yeah man, you hit it on the head. Bullsh!t is accurate. So also are chicken sh!t, dog sh!t, horse sh!t, and pig sh!t. OK, let's also add pirate sh!t. Yo-ho-ho.
1 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

User avatar
Bowhunting Viking
Pro Bowl Elite Player
Posts: 725
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:39 am
Location: Convoy, Ohio
x 380

Re: The Bucs Stop Here

Post by Bowhunting Viking » Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:23 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:37 pm
Bowhunting Viking wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:16 pm
And that ####!!!!! would have read BULLS...!!
There have been years where the NFL's bias was so obvious that it was worse than the 1919 Black Sox scandal.

2009 New Orleans. Poor Saints fans. Katrina. We love Drew Brees.

2020 Tampa Bay Buccaneers. The Brady/Gronk Swan Song. Tom's the G.O.A.T. Covid. Super Bowl in Tampa.

Yeah man, you hit it on the head. Bullsh!t is accurate. So also are chicken sh!t, dog sh!t, horse sh!t, and pig sh!t. OK, let's also add pirate sh!t. Yo-ho-ho.
.... and the bias against us has been very obvious lately.

And let me add a few more that are dear to my heart
Whitetail Deer S$#T
Elk S$#T
Mule Deer S$#T
Moose S$#T
I could do this all day
0 x
I just wanna die as a Super Bowl Champion Viking Fan!!