4th Quarter Cousins

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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by allday1991 » Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:14 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:58 am
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:46 am


Here's a theory - Cook is getting frustrated by the fact that defenses are focusing on stopping him and he's not getting the favorable running looks he got earlier in the year. It's natural to attribute the struggles to some change in Cook's attitude, but I think it's more likely he's just seeing defenses selling out to stop him and as a result he's taking a lot of contact with not a lot to show for it.

I was a little surprised at how conservative the Vikings were on offense in the first half yesterday. I thought they played into what the Jags wanted to do on defense and it showed. There was no room to run because the Jags were selling out to stop it and getting a lot of penetration as a result. Kubiak seemed to wise up a bit in the 2nd half and had Cousins take more shots, and then Cook did get some room to roam.

And when he did, I saw his effort. On that play to end the 3rd where he nearly scored I don't see how anyone can doubt his attitude or effort. Even on the play before that where he got tripped up he pounded the ball because he knew if he stayed on his feet there he could have scored.

So I'm not really seeing a general change in his attitude as much as some frustration/resignation that as long as the Vikings can't or won't alter how defenses play against Cook when he's out there, the running is going to be tough going.

Think of it like you're in your Ferrari and you know how fast it can go, but you're stuck in the left lane of the highway behind granny and have a slow 18 wheeler next to you in the right lane. You know you can go faster. You want to go faster. But you're just going to have to be patient.

But as soon as granny gets out of the way,

ZOOM

Yeah, Cook will be fine as soon as Vikings start hitting teams over the top more when they cheat to play the run.
I agree with you here.

But come on. We're talking 38 touches. That's overuse no matter how you look at it. Cook is at 30.2 touches per game since the bye. He's not going to hold up. I'd be frustrated, too!

Also, it's not just us noticing these things. Ben Leber was on the sidelines. He commented on it after the game. Again, not knocking Cook. He's getting the hell beat out of him.

You are correct about the play calling yesterday, especially in the first half. The Vikings were running Cook right into the teeth of a Jags defense that was selling out to stop him. Then when they did drop back to throw, it was all short routes and check-down Charlies. One way the Vikings could have reduced Cook's usage yesterday would have been to simply throw down the field more, especially off play action. When they did that in the second half, you correctly stated that the offense suddenly started to click.

The Vikings need to find a way to reduce this man's workload, or he's going to get hurt.
I don't know about Cook. Lets be honest he is a great player and can do things when he gets a bit of space but I don't think he's a game changer, we seem to sometimes do fine without him (lions game) and other times we look lost, but its like that even when he is there sometimes, its just our offense. Even before the heavy work load he got this season he still has yet to play a full season with us and is always hurt or banged up. Was he worth the money, who knows. I wouldn't be surprised if 2020 was Cooks career year with us. Kirk has done enough to get some respect from defenses, we definitely get less stacked boxes than in Petersons day and less production running the ball. Cook should have more than enough room to do his thing but in my honest opinion he is not a top 5 back in the league.
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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by VikingLord » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:25 am

allday1991 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:14 pm
I don't know about Cook. Lets be honest he is a great player and can do things when he gets a bit of space but I don't think he's a game changer, we seem to sometimes do fine without him (lions game) and other times we look lost, but its like that even when he is there sometimes, its just our offense. Even before the heavy work load he got this season he still has yet to play a full season with us and is always hurt or banged up. Was he worth the money, who knows. I wouldn't be surprised if 2020 was Cooks career year with us. Kirk has done enough to get some respect from defenses, we definitely get less stacked boxes than in Petersons day and less production running the ball. Cook should have more than enough room to do his thing but in my honest opinion he is not a top 5 back in the league.
I think he's clearly a top 5 back and is being paid accordingly. He has had injury issues even this last season and he did seem to wear down a bit as the season wore on, but in my view he was a factor and heavily contributed to the success of the Vikings offense overall. He is the type of runner who fits the zone blocking scheme the Vikings use perfectly.

Is he as good individually as AD was in his prime? That's a little harder to say because AD was a unique physical talent at RB, but Cook is a very tough runner and, in my view, is a more complete player at the RB position than AD was.
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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by allday1991 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:45 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:25 am
allday1991 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:14 pm
I don't know about Cook. Lets be honest he is a great player and can do things when he gets a bit of space but I don't think he's a game changer, we seem to sometimes do fine without him (lions game) and other times we look lost, but its like that even when he is there sometimes, its just our offense. Even before the heavy work load he got this season he still has yet to play a full season with us and is always hurt or banged up. Was he worth the money, who knows. I wouldn't be surprised if 2020 was Cooks career year with us. Kirk has done enough to get some respect from defenses, we definitely get less stacked boxes than in Petersons day and less production running the ball. Cook should have more than enough room to do his thing but in my honest opinion he is not a top 5 back in the league.
I think he's clearly a top 5 back and is being paid accordingly. He has had injury issues even this last season and he did seem to wear down a bit as the season wore on, but in my view he was a factor and heavily contributed to the success of the Vikings offense overall. He is the type of runner who fits the zone blocking scheme the Vikings use perfectly.

Is he as good individually as AD was in his prime? That's a little harder to say because AD was a unique physical talent at RB, but Cook is a very tough runner and, in my view, is a more complete player at the RB position than AD was.
My list would go,
1. CMC, all around best RB by quite a bit, Henry is a better pure rusher but CMC brings to much to the passing game
2. Henry
3. Nick Chubb
4. Kamara
5. Barkley when healthy

I guess Cook is top 5 in some people opinion (which is fine) just not mine. As stated he has never finished a full season yet (Yes this is hard for running backs but still can be done), and the more people focus on him the more discouraged he gets and seems to give up imo. I believe he helps our offense but he isn't a game changer like the top players at there positions in the league. I may be a little bias but comparing AP to Cook just cant be done yet, Cook would have to have another 3-5 seasons like he just had to even get into that conversation. Just comparing there best seasons atm Cook had 312 attempts for 1557 yards, Ap rushed 348 attempts for 2097 yards. On just 36 more attempts he put up 540 more yards, it's like comparing the potential one of the best, if not the best pure rusher to ever play to a top 10 RB of there generation, the gap is huge. Not to mentioned the boxes Peterson ran into, having Ponder as a QB and no decent WRs, Cooks stat line wouldn't exist if he ran into the type of boxes Peterson did. Sure Cook can block a bit better and is descent in the pass game (I don't think Peterson was bad, he was just rarely used in the passing, look as his first year with Washington) but I would trade an all around good player for the best pure rusher the league has seen in 20 years.
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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:11 am

I know this is a thread about Cousins, but how about former Viking Taylor Heinicke in the playoffs against Tampa Bay? Dude was dropping dimes all over the field in that game.

Leave it to the Vikings to have a really good player on the roster and not even know it.

Don’t know about you guys, but I found myself rooting for the kid.
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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by StumpHunter » Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:05 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:11 am
I know this is a thread about Cousins, but how about former Viking Taylor Heinicke in the playoffs against Tampa Bay? Dude was dropping dimes all over the field in that game.

Leave it to the Vikings to have a really good player on the roster and not even know it.

Don’t know about you guys, but I found myself rooting for the kid.
Yeah, he played amazing for how little time he had to prepare. His one pick was a ball hit at the LOS, and not really a poor throw. 300+ yards and a TD against one of the better defenses in the NFL and only lost by a score. Not bad at all.
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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by Frozen Rope » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:33 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:05 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:11 am
I know this is a thread about Cousins, but how about former Viking Taylor Heinicke in the playoffs against Tampa Bay? Dude was dropping dimes all over the field in that game.

Leave it to the Vikings to have a really good player on the roster and not even know it.

Don’t know about you guys, but I found myself rooting for the kid.
Yeah, he played amazing for how little time he had to prepare. His one pick was a ball hit at the LOS, and not really a poor throw. 300+ yards and a TD against one of the better defenses in the NFL and only lost by a score. Not bad at all.
Great instincts, can’t teach that. Played great
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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by IIsweet » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:53 pm

Sure wish we had Heinecke as opposed to Mannion and Stanley. Btw, what is Kyle Sloter doing now? Remember how we stole him from the Broncos and were so enamored with him we protected him?
Ooops another QB miss.
Have to also add, I think we will be on OC #6 next year in 6 years. Why???? Cousins has to be asking himself what he did to deserve this inconsistent NFL coaching carousel he has been handed.
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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by S197 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:44 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:11 am
I know this is a thread about Cousins, but how about former Viking Taylor Heinicke in the playoffs against Tampa Bay? Dude was dropping dimes all over the field in that game.

Leave it to the Vikings to have a really good player on the roster and not even know it.

Don’t know about you guys, but I found myself rooting for the kid.
Gutsy performance for sure.

Talk about ugly options to cheer for in the NFC... Packers, Saints, Bucs, and Rams. I guess Rams?

I’m definitely rooting for Buffalo in the AFC although I’d take any of those teams over whoever is representing the NFC.
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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by CharVike » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:44 pm

IIsweet wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:53 pm
Sure wish we had Heinecke as opposed to Mannion and Stanley. Btw, what is Kyle Sloter doing now? Remember how we stole him from the Broncos and were so enamored with him we protected him?
Ooops another QB miss.
Have to also add, I think we will be on OC #6 next year in 6 years. Why???? Cousins has to be asking himself what he did to deserve this inconsistent NFL coaching carousel he has been handed.
2 became head coaches. I'm sure the Zimmer haters will blame that on him. We hired a guy from the Eagles Defilippo who was canned because he couldn't handle the job and now is helping Mitch Tribisky become a stiff. He always gets a job for some reason. When Zim hired him I didn't hear to much about how bad the guy is. And now Kubiak who is retiring I guess. I never liked the Kubiak hire and the soft ground game he creates. But he has proven to be a super bowl winner. That takes a dam good coach no matter what I think. What I do like about Zim is he gets out of the way and lets the OC run the offensive show. Jerry Burns always let his coordinators do their thing. Bud did the same. Sloter had the skills I liked in a QB. I was glad we gave him a chance. But he lacked something to play at the pro level or maybe he carried on with another career. QB is a tough position to fill. I would like to hear a poster tell us all who the future HOF QB is in this class. I don't see one but I'm no scout either.
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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:49 pm

S197 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:44 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:11 am
I know this is a thread about Cousins, but how about former Viking Taylor Heinicke in the playoffs against Tampa Bay? Dude was dropping dimes all over the field in that game.

Leave it to the Vikings to have a really good player on the roster and not even know it.

Don’t know about you guys, but I found myself rooting for the kid.
Gutsy performance for sure.

Talk about ugly options to cheer for in the NFC... Packers, Saints, Bucs, and Rams. I guess Rams?

I’m definitely rooting for Buffalo in the AFC although I’d take any of those teams over whoever is representing the NFC.
I seriously can’t root for any of the NFC teams. Just ... repulsive. I can’t imagine the love fest this week for Brady-Brees.

In the AFC, I like the Bills. They’re fun to watch. And the Browns are my best friend’s team, plus the Stefanski connection (wish he was OUR coach), so I’m rooting for them to do well.

Vikings, Bills, Browns. Time for the long-suffering fans to get some run.
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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by CharVike » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:30 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:49 pm
S197 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:44 pm


Gutsy performance for sure.

Talk about ugly options to cheer for in the NFC... Packers, Saints, Bucs, and Rams. I guess Rams?

I’m definitely rooting for Buffalo in the AFC although I’d take any of those teams over whoever is representing the NFC.
I seriously can’t root for any of the NFC teams. Just ... repulsive. I can’t imagine the love fest this week for Brady-Brees.

In the AFC, I like the Bills. They’re fun to watch. And the Browns are my best friend’s team, plus the Stefanski connection (wish he was OUR coach), so I’m rooting for them to do well.

Vikings, Bills, Browns. Time for the long-suffering fans to get some run.
The Rams have a great pass defense. It showed with the pick six against Wilson. Maybe they can knock off the Packers. The Brady Brees love fest will make most want to throw up. We get to see two future HOF QBs battle it out. I guess Brees is retiring after this so that crap will go on also. It's great for the NFL in a down year. I thought with HFA the Packers were a shoe in but this Ram team is impressive against the pass. I'd like for them to win. I'd like Bills and Rams in the Super Bowl.
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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by VikingLord » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:20 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:11 am
I know this is a thread about Cousins, but how about former Viking Taylor Heinicke in the playoffs against Tampa Bay? Dude was dropping dimes all over the field in that game.

Leave it to the Vikings to have a really good player on the roster and not even know it.

Don’t know about you guys, but I found myself rooting for the kid.
Call me a skeptic, but if Heinicke is so good, why wasn't he already the starter?

I don't want to take anything away from his performance in that one game. He played well and as you noted, made some great throws. But I'm not ready to go further than that in terms of his praise, or criticize the Vikings for allowing him to leave. Nick Foles played a series of great games in relief of Carson Wentz and won a Superbowl while doing it. That doesn't mean Foles is awesome or has a bright future. He caught fire at the right time.

Maybe Heinicke is the one that got away from the Vikings and we'll all be kicking the braintrust for letting him walk, but something tells me that is highly unlikely to be the case.
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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by Fat Stupid Loser » Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:24 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:20 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:11 am
I know this is a thread about Cousins, but how about former Viking Taylor Heinicke in the playoffs against Tampa Bay? Dude was dropping dimes all over the field in that game.

Leave it to the Vikings to have a really good player on the roster and not even know it.

Don’t know about you guys, but I found myself rooting for the kid.

Call me a skeptic, but if Heinicke is so good, why wasn't he already the starter?

I don't want to take anything away from his performance in that one game. He played well and as you noted, made some great throws. But I'm not ready to go further than that in terms of his praise, or criticize the Vikings for allowing him to leave. Nick Foles played a series of great games in relief of Carson Wentz and won a Superbowl while doing it. That doesn't mean Foles is awesome or has a bright future. He caught fire at the right time.

Maybe Heinicke is the one that got away from the Vikings and we'll all be kicking the braintrust for letting him walk, but something tells me that is highly unlikely to be the case.
He is really good. He is one of these guys that has it (almost) all. There are actually quite a few of those guys out there that don't make it. A coach on the Washington site said he is a true 5 read QB. He even has the IT factor. But he lacks an NFL body. And that limits him at times and in certain situations. It ultimately prevents guys like him from consistently performing at an NFL level. But man, that kid is a baller.
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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by VikingLord » Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:27 pm

Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:24 pm
He is really good. He is one of these guys that has it (almost) all. There are actually quite a few of those guys out there that don't make it. A coach on the Washington site said he is a true 5 read QB. He even has the IT factor. But he lacks an NFL body. And that limits him at times and in certain situations. It ultimately prevents guys like him from consistently performing at an NFL level. But man, that kid is a baller.
He is really good? You base that on a single game?

Just for the record and because I suspect there will be a lot of Vikings fans on this board lobbing additional criticism at Spielman for "allowing" Heinicke to "get away":

- Heinicke went undrafted in 2015
- He was signed to a UDFA contact by the Vikings that year
- Despite the Vikings being an uber-needy QB team, Heinicke was released by the Vikings in 2017. Not traded. Not because he got a better offer from someone. Released with an injury settlement (not sure if he was actually injured or the Vikings had to do that to cut bait with him)
- Heinicke was then signed by the Patriots. Yes, those Patriots of Bill Belichek and Tom Brady who should know a keeper at QB when they see one. He didn't last the season with the Patriots, either. He was released in early October of that season.
- He then landed with the Texans and Panthers.
- He then went to the St. Louis Battlehawks of the now defunct XFL. He saw no playing time while there.
- Finally, he arrived at Washington this year, only playing when the team had no other viable option at QB and being promoted from the practice squad on December 19th. Basically, he was the "best of what's left" at that point.

So for you to claim that he is really good and has had that sort of pro career merely because of physical limitations is difficult for me to accept. The NFL has had plenty of smaller QBs (although Heinicke isn't really all that small), slower QBs, weak-armed QBs, etc., that have had more prolific careers than Heinicke has so far.

If I were the Washington GM, though, I'd strike while the iron is hot and see if a QB-needy team might be willing to trade for him based on that sole performance. If the comments on this board reflect more general thinking, it sounds like someone might be willing to give something up for him.
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Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by StumpHunter » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:11 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:27 pm
Fat Stupid Loser wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:24 pm
He is really good. He is one of these guys that has it (almost) all. There are actually quite a few of those guys out there that don't make it. A coach on the Washington site said he is a true 5 read QB. He even has the IT factor. But he lacks an NFL body. And that limits him at times and in certain situations. It ultimately prevents guys like him from consistently performing at an NFL level. But man, that kid is a baller.
He is really good? You base that on a single game?

Just for the record and because I suspect there will be a lot of Vikings fans on this board lobbing additional criticism at Spielman for "allowing" Heinicke to "get away":

- Heinicke went undrafted in 2015
- He was signed to a UDFA contact by the Vikings that year
- Despite the Vikings being an uber-needy QB team, Heinicke was released by the Vikings in 2017. Not traded. Not because he got a better offer from someone. Released with an injury settlement (not sure if he was actually injured or the Vikings had to do that to cut bait with him)
- Heinicke was then signed by the Patriots. Yes, those Patriots of Bill Belichek and Tom Brady who should know a keeper at QB when they see one. He didn't last the season with the Patriots, either. He was released in early October of that season.
- He then landed with the Texans and Panthers.
- He then went to the St. Louis Battlehawks of the now defunct XFL. He saw no playing time while there.
- Finally, he arrived at Washington this year, only playing when the team had no other viable option at QB and being promoted from the practice squad on December 19th. Basically, he was the "best of what's left" at that point.

So for you to claim that he is really good and has had that sort of pro career merely because of physical limitations is difficult for me to accept. The NFL has had plenty of smaller QBs (although Heinicke isn't really all that small), slower QBs, weak-armed QBs, etc., that have had more prolific careers than Heinicke has so far.

If I were the Washington GM, though, I'd strike while the iron is hot and see if a QB-needy team might be willing to trade for him based on that sole performance. If the comments on this board reflect more general thinking, it sounds like someone might be willing to give something up for him.
I would be shocked if he even makes a team next season. I am really impressed with what he did against Tampa but he has struggled to stay on a roster for a reason.
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