4th Quarter Cousins

A forum for the hard core Minnesota Vikings fan. Discuss upcoming games, opponents, trades, draft or what ever is on the minds of Viking fans!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1651
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 405

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by VikingsVictorious » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:19 pm

To the delight of some I've been gone for a long time, but it's just too damn depressing coming here to read all the whining when we lose or have a losing record. We have an above average team right now that in a couple years I believe will be a very strong contender to win it all.
The 1-5 start to the season was a combination of so many new players and some bad luck. The 5-1 rebound IMO is much more indicative on the team we are.
0 x

Frozen Rope
Backup
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:27 am
x 53

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by Frozen Rope » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:22 pm

chicagopurple wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:21 am
Cousins, our coach, our entire team barely beat one of the worst teams in the NFL, requiring overtime to do it. Most good college teams could beat the Jags and the Jags QB wouldnt be a starter on any big NCAA program at this point.......lipstick on a pig this week.
It happens CP. How do you think Seattle fans slept last night and several other teams. Vegas made a lot of money yesterday with many teams losing or not covering the spread. At least we won. Ugly, but decent teams, and we are a decent team, find ways to win, and that’s what we are doing right now. This thread would be the mothership of misery if we lost that game yesterday. The Vikings are doing just enough to keep us all corralled.
0 x

User avatar
J. Kapp 11
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8423
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:57 pm
x 1024

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:26 pm

VikingLord wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:09 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:58 am

I agree with you here.

But come on. We're talking 38 touches. That's overuse no matter how you look at it. Cook is at 30.2 touches per game since the bye. He's not going to hold up. I'd be frustrated, too!

Also, it's not just us noticing these things. Ben Leber was on the sidelines. He commented on it after the game. Again, not knocking Cook. He's getting the hell beat out of him.

You are correct about the play calling yesterday, especially in the first half. The Vikings were running Cook right into the teeth of a Jags defense that was selling out to stop him. Then when they did drop back to throw, it was all short routes and check-down Charlies. One way the Vikings could have reduced Cook's usage yesterday would have been to simply throw down the field more, especially off play action. When they did that in the second half, you correctly stated that the offense suddenly started to click.

The Vikings need to find a way to reduce this man's workload, or he's going to get hurt.
Yeah, I agree with that.

But here's my theory on the first half gameplan.

The Jags have struggled all year to stop opposing running games. They are 3rd worst in the league at stopping the run, so it was reasonable that the Vikings felt they could run on them and play more conservatively.

I don't know if the Jags took that personally, but they also came in with a lot of pep in their step. They played like a defense that wanted to change a narrative and prove something more than a team resigned to its flaws and its fate.

The combination of those two things resulted in what we saw in the first half yesterday - a Vikings offense that essentially played right into the strategy of the opposing defense. Cook's production suffered as a result. Vikings wake up and stop banging their heads into a wall, and the offense moves and Cook starts to break off some longer runs.

If I put the lack of production in the first half on anyone, it's Kubiak and his failure to adjust earlier to what he was seeing happening on the field.

I'll say one last thing about Dalvin Cook. I don't think he'd be getting the workload he's getting if he didn't want it. I think the Vikings coaches are very cognizant of what they're asking Cook to do, and I believe Cook is telling them he wants that load. If he needs to come out, he comes out. If he's banged up, he comes out. I think Cook wants the workload because he wants to win and he feels he can take it on.

Now whether that is a good idea overall or realistic, I don't know. Like you, I'm concerned about his health and ability to remain effective. It's something the Vikings need to consider as the season wears on.
I say this with every ounce of respect I can muster — does this surprise you?

Name me a back, a receiver, a tight end, any skill position player who doesn't want the ball more.

Dalvin Cook got offended when a reporter suggested he's getting worn down. He's a 25-year-old man playing in a sport full of alphas who believes he's invincible. Gary Kubiak has been coaching since Dalvin Cook's parents were in junior high. He ought to know better.
0 x
Image
Go ahead. I dare you.
Underestimate this man.

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12465
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 549

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by S197 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:53 pm

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:54 am
S197 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:21 am


It’s not ESPN’s QBR, it’s just a QBR. Someone posted the formula from the wiki in another thread. This thread, which I didn’t start, is about his QBR so why wouldn’t I bring it up?
For the record, the Quarterback Rating that I referenced when opening this thread is NOT the "Total Quarterback Rating" that is a proprietary rating system that ESPN created, and that you reference in that link. It is the QBR (or passing rating) that the NFL started using in 1973. Maybe I should have said "Passer Rating" instead so as not to confuse.
Ah okay, that makes more sense. I was thinking it's odd Cousins QBR is rated so low in aggregate yet so high in the 4th quarter. But passer rating makes more sense where he's currently 8th (rating may be before yesterday's game is factored).
0 x

User avatar
S197
Fenrir
Posts: 12465
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:28 pm
Location: Hawaii
x 549

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by S197 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:19 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:34 am
OK, at the risk of sounding anti-Cook, I'm going to share this. I also apologize in advance ... this is supposed to be about Cousins in the 4th. But in an indirect way, this contributes to Kirk's play.

Yesterday on the game chat, some of you will remember that I was questioning whether Cook was off. Whether he was worn down. Something was wrong. Many of you agreed ... he's being run into the ground.

Ben Leber, who was ON THE SIDELINE yesterday, said Cook's demeanor was "off." Leber said he didn't like Cook's body language. He lacked fire and intensity. I mean, Ben Leber was right there, walking amongst the team.

Well, what a surprise. Over the past six weeks, he's averaging 30.3 touches per game. Yesterday — 32 carries, 6 receptions. That's 38 touches!

Here's the deal. When you give a running back nearly $13 million per season, there's the natural temptation to use him to death. But it's unstutainable. We're talking about a 210-pound running back. Let's compare Cook to Earl Campbell. In his heaviest-use season, Campbell averaged 24 touches per game. The man can now barely walk. He's had both knees replaced, had half a dozen back surgeries, and battled substance abuse to control the pain. And he weighed 237 pounds, playing against linemen and linebackers who were smaller and slower than today's players. Cook is getting hammered out there. And the Vikings just keep calling his number.

This isn't a knock on Dalvin Cook. Not at all. It's a knock on the Vikings using him to death. We've seen Cook's energy level and explosiveness take a hit the past four weeks, and it's no wonder.

It's fairly obvious that we can move the ball through the air. And our other running backs, while not Cook, are not slouches. The Vikings have GOT to reduce Cook's exposure, or they won't even get through this season with him, let alone 5 years.
I agree. Ideally you would want to lower his workload over the last 5-games, which were against lower quality opponents but without those carries do they still win those games? Cook leads the league in all purpose yards so he was huge, arguably the biggest part of the current win streak. Tampa and NO are obviously both good teams and Chicago is stout against the rush when their DL is healthy. It could be a rough couple of games for him.

He and Derrick Henry are sort've in a league of their own in terms of the amount the offense uses them. And Henry is built like a freight train. Kamara is also up there but a lot of his yards comes in the passing game. He has more than a 100 less rushing attempts than Cook and that's with Kamara playing one more game than Cook.

I don't know that this offense does all that well without the run-first approach. It didn't work for JDF, that's for sure. I think situationally it can, as an example there was no one on the field that could cover Thielen or Jefferson yesterday so that was one game where I think they could have lightened Cook's load. The other problem is Mattison isn't as big a threat in the passing game, he's very much a north south runner. Abdullah had a nice catch yesterday but when he's in you know they're not going to run. Boone is also similar to Mattison. So you very much lose the dual threat, keep the defense honest, aspect without Cook on the field.

I'm going to try and steer away from Cousins so I'll focus on the other issue with a more pass happy Vikings offense. As improved as the OL is, it's still not very good. The Jags were one of the worst pass rush teams in the league and they were getting to Cousins fairly often. I think the only option is to keep the offense more or less the way it is and give Matti/Boone a much bigger load. But, I think the dropoff will be very noticeable. I mean, the one game where Cook didn't play, the Vikings were badly beaten by the 1-win Falcons and only had 32 yards rushing.
0 x

User avatar
VikingLord
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6827
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:12 pm
Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow
x 385

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by VikingLord » Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:03 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:26 pm
VikingLord wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:09 pm
I'll say one last thing about Dalvin Cook. I don't think he'd be getting the workload he's getting if he didn't want it. I think the Vikings coaches are very cognizant of what they're asking Cook to do, and I believe Cook is telling them he wants that load. If he needs to come out, he comes out. If he's banged up, he comes out. I think Cook wants the workload because he wants to win and he feels he can take it on.

Now whether that is a good idea overall or realistic, I don't know. Like you, I'm concerned about his health and ability to remain effective. It's something the Vikings need to consider as the season wears on.
I say this with every ounce of respect I can muster — does this surprise you?

Name me a back, a receiver, a tight end, any skill position player who doesn't want the ball more.

Dalvin Cook got offended when a reporter suggested he's getting worn down. He's a 25-year-old man playing in a sport full of alphas who believes he's invincible. Gary Kubiak has been coaching since Dalvin Cook's parents were in junior high. He ought to know better.
Yes and no.

This is the NFL we're talking about. While it's true that its a sport full of alphas, its also a sport full of divas.

For example, I think Randy Moss was a great receiver and I like the guy, but there were many games where he outright quit on the team or the play. One time he started walking to the locker room before the game even ended. Another time he wore a cap with the names "Carter" and "Reed" crossed out after a loss, implying he was shouldering all of the pressure of performing in the passing game by himself.

So yeah, I could see Cook start to walk things back when the going gets tough. He has excuses. Even now the OL hasn't been great in front of him. The Vikings many times play offense like it's the 70's, or at least seem to want to play it that way. And defenses are keying on Cook, especially on the early downs. Cook has taken a lot of punishment as a result.

So Cook has excuses, and if he were more diva than alpha, especially given that he got paid before the season started, I could easily see his attitude being a problem.

But you're right that both Zimmer and Kubiak make the playtime decisions and I also think you're right that it's wise to have some limits on the number of plays and touches any player should get. Like pitchers in baseball, though, you don't necessarily follow a strict formula with that. If a guy is pitching well and he tells you he can keep going, I think smart coaches listen to that. Why bring in a reliever if your starter can finish the game?

Same thing with a guy like Cook. Like I said earlier, if Cook wants out or needs to come out, he comes out. And if you sit a guy like that when he doesn't want to sit, that could actually have a bigger negative impact on him than letting him play and contribute, especially if he feels strongly about it.

I say the best medicine for Cook is for the Vikings to force defenses to back off from solely focusing on him, and the best way to do that is by hurting defenses over the top. Make em pay for cheating their secondary players and linebackers up.
0 x

User avatar
Texas Vike
Hall of Fame Inductee
Posts: 4125
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:52 am
x 219

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by Texas Vike » Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:19 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:34 am
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:06 am


Good post Kapp. Yeah I've watched that pick 6 play over a few times. There was definitely some confusion there. Watching Cousins and Bradbury, it looked like they were trying to run a screen. Watching Dalvin, he looked like he was simply going out for a route on a pass play. The reason Cousins got nailed when he threw that ball was because Bradbury bailed for the screen. Dalvin just wasnt looking. Even though Dalvin ran for 120 yards, I think this was one of his worst games this year. He just made a lot of boneheaded plays.
OK, at the risk of sounding anti-Cook, I'm going to share this. I also apologize in advance ... this is supposed to be about Cousins in the 4th. But in an indirect way, this contributes to Kirk's play.

Yesterday on the game chat, some of you will remember that I was questioning whether Cook was off. Whether he was worn down. Something was wrong. Many of you agreed ... he's being run into the ground.

Ben Leber, who was ON THE SIDELINE yesterday, said Cook's demeanor was "off." Leber said he didn't like Cook's body language. He lacked fire and intensity. I mean, Ben Leber was right there, walking amongst the team.

Well, what a surprise. Over the past six weeks, he's averaging 30.3 touches per game. Yesterday — 32 carries, 6 receptions. That's 38 touches!

Here's the deal. When you give a running back nearly $13 million per season, there's the natural temptation to use him to death. But it's unstutainable. We're talking about a 210-pound running back. Let's compare Cook to Earl Campbell. In his heaviest-use season, Campbell averaged 24 touches per game. The man can now barely walk. He's had both knees replaced, had half a dozen back surgeries, and battled substance abuse to control the pain. And he weighed 237 pounds, playing against linemen and linebackers who were smaller and slower than today's players. Cook is getting hammered out there. And the Vikings just keep calling his number.

This isn't a knock on Dalvin Cook. Not at all. It's a knock on the Vikings using him to death. We've seen Cook's energy level and explosiveness take a hit the past four weeks, and it's no wonder.

It's fairly obvious that we can move the ball through the air. And our other running backs, while not Cook, are not slouches. The Vikings have GOT to reduce Cook's exposure, or they won't even get through this season with him, let alone 5 years.
I agree whole heartedly.

Couple of things I noticed yesterday: 1) Cook avoided hits at times yesterday, something I've never seen him do before EVER. He actually sat down in order to avoid a hit at the end of one run. The oddest thing I've seen him do. Leber's observations are interesting. Something was definitely off. IMO, he is dinged up but doesn't like his reputation as injury prone, so that, plus his new contract, makes him play through it. Compare this game to how Cook played in his first game back (GB) when he was fresh or last year's playoff win vs. Saints. in those games he looked unstoppable and it was because he was fresh and not dealing with injury.
2) Kirk was angry at times yesterday. He argued with Cook on the sideline after the fumble and with some coaches too. I suspect he wasn't fond of the play calling and wanted to throw some long balls. Jax had an injury plagued, weak secondary and we weren't testing them initially. Way too conservative play-calling in the first half especially.
2 x

StumpHunter
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2231
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 359

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by StumpHunter » Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:00 am

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:19 pm
To the delight of some I've been gone for a long time, but it's just too damn depressing coming here to read all the whining when we lose or have a losing record. We have an above average team right now that in a couple years I believe will be a very strong contender to win it all.
The 1-5 start to the season was a combination of so many new players and some bad luck. The 5-1 rebound IMO is much more indicative on the team we are.
Above average teams don't need to go to OT to beat a 1-10 team playing with their 3rd string QB.

They don't need two missed FGs to beat a Carolina team down their best offensive weapon.

They don't lose a terrible Dallas team playing their backup QB.
0 x

Dmizzle0
Franchise Player
Posts: 494
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:03 pm
x 33

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by Dmizzle0 » Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:09 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:00 am
VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:19 pm
To the delight of some I've been gone for a long time, but it's just too damn depressing coming here to read all the whining when we lose or have a losing record. We have an above average team right now that in a couple years I believe will be a very strong contender to win it all.
The 1-5 start to the season was a combination of so many new players and some bad luck. The 5-1 rebound IMO is much more indicative on the team we are.
Above average teams don't need to go to OT to beat a 1-10 team playing with their 3rd string QB.

They don't need two missed FGs to beat a Carolina team down their best offensive weapon.

They don't lose a terrible Dallas team playing their backup QB.
You're proving his point with all the whining.
3 x

User avatar
VikingPaul73
Hall of Fame Candidate
Posts: 3253
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:07 pm
x 110

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by VikingPaul73 » Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:30 am

I don't know.....there is sooooo much parity now in the NFL that the difference between "winning" teams and "losing" teams is really razor thin.

Seattle just lost to the 4-7 Giants at home. I'd rather need OT to beat a 1-10 team than lose
Undefeated Steeler lost to 4-7 FT
etc
etc
1 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1651
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 405

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by VikingsVictorious » Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:08 pm

Dmizzle0 wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:09 am
StumpHunter wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:00 am


Above average teams don't need to go to OT to beat a 1-10 team playing with their 3rd string QB.

They don't need two missed FGs to beat a Carolina team down their best offensive weapon.

They don't lose a terrible Dallas team playing their backup QB.
You're proving his point with all the whining.
Yes he is. We win a game and he's whining because we didn't win it good enough. Just imagine if we had lost. I don't have time for that crap.
0 x

User avatar
VikingsVictorious
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1651
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm
x 405

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by VikingsVictorious » Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:10 pm

VikingPaul73 wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:30 am
I don't know.....there is sooooo much parity now in the NFL that the difference between "winning" teams and "losing" teams is really razor thin.

Seattle just lost to the 4-7 Giants at home. I'd rather need OT to beat a 1-10 team than lose
Undefeated Steeler lost to 4-7 FT
etc
etc
Exactly. A win is a win. I'll take one any time and I don't care if it's ugly as hell.
1 x

StumpHunter
Career Elite Player
Posts: 2231
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 am
x 359

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by StumpHunter » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:14 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:08 pm
Dmizzle0 wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:09 am


You're proving his point with all the whining.
Yes he is. We win a game and he's whining because we didn't win it good enough. Just imagine if we had lost. I don't have time for that crap.
Pointing out reality isn't whining.

Do you think barely beating two bad teams and losing to THE worst team in football since week 5 over the past 3 games is a sign that this team is above average?
0 x

User avatar
RandyMoss84
All Pro Elite Player
Posts: 1187
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:12 pm
x 404

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by RandyMoss84 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:54 pm

I just saw this stat:

Cousins is actually the only quarterback in the NFL who has thrown for at least 3,000 yards and 25 touchdowns in each of the last six seasons.
1 x

Frozen Rope
Backup
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:27 am
x 53

Re: 4th Quarter Cousins

Post by Frozen Rope » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:13 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:19 pm
To the delight of some I've been gone for a long time, but it's just too damn depressing coming here to read all the whining when we lose or have a losing record. We have an above average team right now that in a couple years I believe will be a very strong contender to win it all.
The 1-5 start to the season was a combination of so many new players and some bad luck. The 5-1 rebound IMO is much more indicative on the team we are.
Glad you’re back VV
1 x