'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:45 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:50 am

Why the improvement? PHP and I have been beating the drum. His name is Ezra Cleveland. We've all said that if you give Cousins some time, he will thrive. If you turn him into Patrick Mahomes and force him to scramble, he's going to flounder. Go back to the Green Bay game, when Cleveland was inserted at right guard. Since that time, he's been sacked exactly half as often as he was in the first six games. We're giving him time to throw. That includes the game against the Bears, who rush the passer really well. As a result, Kirk is lighting it up at a 124 passer rating with only 1 INT on a bobble by Thielen. Since Cleveland's insertion, our O-line has actually become a strength. When was the last time we said that in Minnesota? And guess what? When Cleveland has been out with injury, we haven't been as good.
Brett Jones is our second highest graded offensive lineman. He has given up 2 pressures total in 2 games. Cleveland has given up 10 in 4. Cleveland is 86th out of 90 qualifying guards in pass blocking grade. Overall he is 71st.

The real difference is the Vikings figured out they need to run Cook more and we are facing the softer part of the schedule. Not one of the worst RGs in the league.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:30 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:29 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:37 pm


lol I was waiting for someone to come in and take a crap on everyone's parade. First of all, "bad teams" dont float at .500 and possibly get into the playoffs after a 1-5 start. Bad teams are teams like the Jets that are in the hole and never come close to coming out of it. As for the Vikings not having a second round pick....ok? But they have an extra 3rd instead of a 2nd. Not really the end of the world. We'll determine cap space when next offseason hits.

As for the Panthers game, we all know....shi* happens at times. Sure enough in that panthers game, shi* hit the fan for the Vikings in the beginning of the 2nd half. Instead of pis*ing in everyone's cheerios and saying they should've never been there in the first place, maybe try recognizing the resiliency they showed to get back into the game and win it. You act like Carolina is some pushover team that doesnt belong in the league. Not saying they are a good team but they certainly have some pieces to work with. We all know you tried to make the excuse for Teddy before the season even started that he was going to a "'bad team with a bad defense". Well by the looks of it, Teddy looked like he was the one that wasnt holding up his end of the bargain against the Vikings. He had the weapons at WR, had the pass blocking in front of him, has a RB that's averaging 4 yards a carry on the ground and had a defense that made plays and gave him a commanding lead. Yet he couldnt get it done. Hmmm

No less someone could sit here and say the same thing you are but from the opposite side of the spectrum. Well the Vikings lost 3 games by a combined 5 points, they were 1 point away from beating Seattle (a playoff team), they were 1 point away from beating Tennessee (a playoff team) and they beat the Packers on the road (a playoff team). Granted 1 point losses arent wins by any means but if you put Seattle or Tennessee in front of the Vikings RIGHT NOW, I'd have to say I'd take the Vikings to win. And no, not because I'm a fan. I thought they were guaranteed losers against the Titans and Seahawks first time around. But I think the Vikings are simply playing that much better right now.
Sorry, but while this positivity might feel good to some Vikings fans, all it does is enable more mediocrity from the team. Fanbases who don't hold their front offices accountable for getting them a championship and who are happy with wins against bad teams and going .500 because the team "showed improvement, will end up with a bunch of .500 seasons where the team showed improvement and 0 rings.

If the fanbase is happy with progress instead of actual results, the Wilfs will be too.
Fine. B!tch about the Vikings. Enjoy your life. I’ll certainly enjoy mine.

Some of us root for the team we have, not the one we think we’re entitled to.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:56 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:30 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:29 pm

Sorry, but while this positivity might feel good to some Vikings fans, all it does is enable more mediocrity from the team. Fanbases who don't hold their front offices accountable for getting them a championship and who are happy with wins against bad teams and going .500 because the team "showed improvement, will end up with a bunch of .500 seasons where the team showed improvement and 0 rings.

If the fanbase is happy with progress instead of actual results, the Wilfs will be too.
Fine. B!tch about the Vikings. Enjoy your life. I’ll certainly enjoy mine.

Some of us root for the team we have, not the one we think we’re entitled to.
My life is great which is why I live in reality instead of retreating to a fantasy world where the Vikings can do no wrong.

You keep on rooting for the team you have instead of the one you are entitled too. Enjoy never winning it all and keep enabling your favorite team's mediocrity. With that mentality that is all you deserve.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by S197 » Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:08 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:50 am
S197 wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:00 pm
The reason Cousins cap hit is low this year is because they freed up cap space by extending him. Basically you can take the signing bonus portion of the contract and pro rate it over the duration of the contract. You're kicking the can down the road but you will be paying the piper eventually. This is why he has a $31M and $45M cap hit in 2021 and 2022, respectively. Essentially even if Cousins is on another team next year, the Vikings are on the hook for $41M in dead cap over the next two years. I don't know that it's fair to contemplate his cap this year when there's a huge overhang like that which the Vikings cannot get out from under. It's very similar to the situation in NO where they will likely be paying Brees long after he's gone.

I took a deeper dive into the stats. Here's where Cousins ranks in the league:

Passing yards: 15th
Passing TD's: 9th
Passer Rating: 8th
Interceptions: 31st (tied)
Completion %: 12th
QBR: 17th

This is Tannehill for comparison since he's being brought up:

Passing yards: 18th
Passing TD's: 8th
Passer Rating: 6th
Interceptions: 2nd
Completion %: 22nd
QBR: 5th

Tannehill also leads the league with 5 game-winning drives, which I think is also pretty significant.

I don't like to get overly wrapped up in stats because there's a lot of nuance that goes behind them. But I think over an extended period it provides some dimension. Cousins trajectory is improving but is that because it's a softer part of the schedule or is it actual improvement? We'll need to wait and see. I personally don't think he's lived up to the cost the Vikings are paying and that price gets exponentially steeper. In any case, we're all along for the ride because he isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
I have to disagree with the cap assessment.

It's completely fair to contemplate his cap hit for this year because we're IN this year. Next year and 2022 aren't here yet. There are a ton of factors we don't know yet. For example, we don't know what the league-wide cap situation will bring. We also don't know what other veterans the Vikings will decide to keep or cut.

So let's look at next year, keeping in mind that we're speculating here. Cousins' $31 million cap hit will rank 9th in the NFL unless somebody signs for more. Say what you want, but from a comparative standpoint, that's not overpaying for a QB who hits 70% of his passes and leads the league in YPA.

And for the record, Tannehill does not have 5 game-winning drives. He has 3. He also has two fourth-quarter comebacks, which are part of those game-winning drives. Cousins has 2 and 1, so the difference isn't astronomical. Beyond that, they're similar players. Both have incredible running backs behind them, and both rely on those running backs to provide not only a lot of offense, but the threat of a lot of offense. Their stats are similar except that Cousins' completion percentage and YPA are higher. On the other hand, so is his INT percentage, and he has to own that.

Why the improvement? PHP and I have been beating the drum. His name is Ezra Cleveland. We've all said that if you give Cousins some time, he will thrive. If you turn him into Patrick Mahomes and force him to scramble, he's going to flounder. Go back to the Green Bay game, when Cleveland was inserted at right guard. Since that time, he's been sacked exactly half as often as he was in the first six games. We're giving him time to throw. That includes the game against the Bears, who rush the passer really well. As a result, Kirk is lighting it up at a 124 passer rating with only 1 INT on a bobble by Thielen. Since Cleveland's insertion, our O-line has actually become a strength. When was the last time we said that in Minnesota? And guess what? When Cleveland has been out with injury, we haven't been as good.

Bottom line, if Cousins plays the rest of the season like he has the past 5 games (big IF, I realize) then how on earth is he not worth the $31 million next year? Let's remove our personal biases against the guy and look at what he does. Again, we've all said, "Give him an O-line. Give him weapons." Well, he has those now. No excuses. Let's see how he does going forward. Early returns are promising.

That leaves the massive $45 million cap hit in 2022, which is projected to be the highest in the league (even higher than Patrick Mahomes' 2022 salary, and he signed the richest contract in league history). That's something the Vikings will have to deal with. But again, there are factors we simply can't see right now. For example, if the NFL rebounds and the cap jumps to, say, $210 million or $220 million, then it becomes more do-able. If it drops to $175 million next year and doesn't rebound, then we've got a problem.

Yes, a good organization projects its long-term financial future. But it's only a projection. My wife is CFO of a large company. She does projections all the time, and she's very good at it. But she will also tell you that for every major factor to the bottom line, there are dozens of other contributing factors that can move the needle either way. Some of those factors are impossible to predict, so you plan for best- and worst-case scenarios. I guarantee you, Rob Brzezinski has already done that, and he'll re-do it many times before 2022 arrives.
I pulled all my stats from Profootball Reference, which is a pretty reliable site. They credit Tannehill with 5 game winning drives and 4 comebacks.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/

I don't know their criteria and I don't follow the Titans super closely but that's where everything came from.

As for the last five games, I'm skeptical it's due to Ezra Cleveland. I think it has more to do with those games being against the Lions, Bears, Cowboys, and Panthers. All losing teams. The Packers was a solid win for sure but Cook did the heavy lifting.

I'm absolutely with you that if Cousins can consistently play like he has the last 5 games he's worth the $31M. I just think after 2.5 years of watching the guy, "bad Kirk" is going to surface soon. Hope he proves me wrong. Like I said, Tampa Bay is the first big test and I think he can shut up a lot of people if he outplays Brady.

The problem is the Vikings don't have the luxury of moving on from Cousins if he doesn't perform. If he plays like a $2M QB to end the year, they're still on the hook. And not just for 2021 but also 2022. That's huge and my main gripe. He was extended too early and with a sweetheart deal. I haven't seen enough to warrant the amount of guaranteed money they gave him.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by psjordan » Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:37 pm

S197 wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:08 pm
The problem is the Vikings don't have the luxury of moving on from Cousins if he doesn't perform. If he plays like a $2M QB to end the year, they're still on the hook. And not just for 2021 but also 2022. That's huge and my main gripe. He was extended too early and with a sweetheart deal. I haven't seen enough to warrant the amount of guaranteed money they gave him.
Overall I'd love to have a "better" QB situation on our team, but I really think "competent and above" QB's and their agents by far have the upper hand nowadays. "Extended too early with a sweetheart deal" is definitely not outside the norm from a typical NFL team's fans perspective.

I just think almost every NFL team has to live with bull@!#$ contracts for their QB. Very, very few starting, veteran QB contracts have been "team friendly" in the last 10 years outside of the Brady years in NE.

Forgetting rookie contracts, I think there's only two groups of QB's out there, and one group is mighty small. Mahomes and Rogers, maybe one could argue Rothlisberger/Wilson - have contracts that seem like "we can't pay this guy enough" to their fan bases. I feel like you are chiding Rick because we don't have a QB in this group, which is exceptionally talented and exceptionally small.

The other group of QBs, Cousins/Goff/Wentz/Brees/Bridgewater/Tannehill/Ryan/Garoppollo/Stafford/Carr etc., and even TB Brady, all seem like "sweetheart deals" to me (IOW seemingly paid too much vs production) and I'd guess most of their fan base feels the same. I mean Stafford has a $135M contract $92M guaranteed, and has never won a playoff game, but we constantly paintball Spielman for our QB situation?

I just think it's the market for guys who can play QB well enough to start in the NFL. You HAVE to extend them with "too much" money and "too much" guaranteed.

As fans we just have to hold our noses on what our QB is making. Just like about 28 other teams. IMO anyways.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:58 pm

S197 wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:08 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:50 am

I have to disagree with the cap assessment.

It's completely fair to contemplate his cap hit for this year because we're IN this year. Next year and 2022 aren't here yet. There are a ton of factors we don't know yet. For example, we don't know what the league-wide cap situation will bring. We also don't know what other veterans the Vikings will decide to keep or cut.

So let's look at next year, keeping in mind that we're speculating here. Cousins' $31 million cap hit will rank 9th in the NFL unless somebody signs for more. Say what you want, but from a comparative standpoint, that's not overpaying for a QB who hits 70% of his passes and leads the league in YPA.

And for the record, Tannehill does not have 5 game-winning drives. He has 3. He also has two fourth-quarter comebacks, which are part of those game-winning drives. Cousins has 2 and 1, so the difference isn't astronomical. Beyond that, they're similar players. Both have incredible running backs behind them, and both rely on those running backs to provide not only a lot of offense, but the threat of a lot of offense. Their stats are similar except that Cousins' completion percentage and YPA are higher. On the other hand, so is his INT percentage, and he has to own that.

Why the improvement? PHP and I have been beating the drum. His name is Ezra Cleveland. We've all said that if you give Cousins some time, he will thrive. If you turn him into Patrick Mahomes and force him to scramble, he's going to flounder. Go back to the Green Bay game, when Cleveland was inserted at right guard. Since that time, he's been sacked exactly half as often as he was in the first six games. We're giving him time to throw. That includes the game against the Bears, who rush the passer really well. As a result, Kirk is lighting it up at a 124 passer rating with only 1 INT on a bobble by Thielen. Since Cleveland's insertion, our O-line has actually become a strength. When was the last time we said that in Minnesota? And guess what? When Cleveland has been out with injury, we haven't been as good.

Bottom line, if Cousins plays the rest of the season like he has the past 5 games (big IF, I realize) then how on earth is he not worth the $31 million next year? Let's remove our personal biases against the guy and look at what he does. Again, we've all said, "Give him an O-line. Give him weapons." Well, he has those now. No excuses. Let's see how he does going forward. Early returns are promising.

That leaves the massive $45 million cap hit in 2022, which is projected to be the highest in the league (even higher than Patrick Mahomes' 2022 salary, and he signed the richest contract in league history). That's something the Vikings will have to deal with. But again, there are factors we simply can't see right now. For example, if the NFL rebounds and the cap jumps to, say, $210 million or $220 million, then it becomes more do-able. If it drops to $175 million next year and doesn't rebound, then we've got a problem.

Yes, a good organization projects its long-term financial future. But it's only a projection. My wife is CFO of a large company. She does projections all the time, and she's very good at it. But she will also tell you that for every major factor to the bottom line, there are dozens of other contributing factors that can move the needle either way. Some of those factors are impossible to predict, so you plan for best- and worst-case scenarios. I guarantee you, Rob Brzezinski has already done that, and he'll re-do it many times before 2022 arrives.
I pulled all my stats from Profootball Reference, which is a pretty reliable site. They credit Tannehill with 5 game winning drives and 4 comebacks.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/

I don't know their criteria and I don't follow the Titans super closely but that's where everything came from.

As for the last five games, I'm skeptical it's due to Ezra Cleveland. I think it has more to do with those games being against the Lions, Bears, Cowboys, and Panthers. All losing teams. The Packers was a solid win for sure but Cook did the heavy lifting.

I'm absolutely with you that if Cousins can consistently play like he has the last 5 games he's worth the $31M. I just think after 2.5 years of watching the guy, "bad Kirk" is going to surface soon. Hope he proves me wrong. Like I said, Tampa Bay is the first big test and I think he can shut up a lot of people if he outplays Brady.

The problem is the Vikings don't have the luxury of moving on from Cousins if he doesn't perform. If he plays like a $2M QB to end the year, they're still on the hook. And not just for 2021 but also 2022. That's huge and my main gripe. He was extended too early and with a sweetheart deal. I haven't seen enough to warrant the amount of guaranteed money they gave him.
My bad on Tannehill. Read the wrong line!

They pretty much had to extend Cousins to lower his cap number this year. Otherwise we'd have been trotting out a roster full of UFAs.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by StumpHunter » Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:55 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:58 pm

They pretty much had to extend Cousins to lower his cap number this year. Otherwise we'd have been trotting out a roster full of UFAs.
They used most of the money they saved this year to pay Ngakoue, so right there this makes your statement untrue.

However, let's assume that the Vikings did indeed need that 10 million this season or as you said, we would have been trotting out a bunch of UFAs. What are the other options the Vikings could have easily done to get that money anyway?

#1 Given Harris a long term deal and paid him 1 million of it this year.

#2 Restructured Kendricks, Barr and Thielen moving a few million each to signing bonus and pushing it to later years. The Vikings don't even have to ask the players to do this. They could have just done it.

#3 Traded Cousins.

#4 Paid only 1 million in cap to Pierce this year and pushing his cap hit down the road. Cut Stephen (post June 1st designation) save another 3 million.

#5 Create a void year on Cousins contract, moving 10 million in cap to next year without actually extending him.

#6 Realize this season is going to be incredibly tough to compete for a SB in, and 10 million more in cap will not come close to helping bridge the gap between the Vikings and the best in the NFL. Go with what you have, get young guys playing time, extend Cousins next season if he actually earns an extension and build towards a season where you can compete for a SB.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:46 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:30 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:29 pm

Sorry, but while this positivity might feel good to some Vikings fans, all it does is enable more mediocrity from the team. Fanbases who don't hold their front offices accountable for getting them a championship and who are happy with wins against bad teams and going .500 because the team "showed improvement, will end up with a bunch of .500 seasons where the team showed improvement and 0 rings.

If the fanbase is happy with progress instead of actual results, the Wilfs will be too.
Fine. B!tch about the Vikings. Enjoy your life. I’ll certainly enjoy mine.

Some of us root for the team we have, not the one we think we’re entitled to.
Maybe he pis*ed in his own Cheerios this morning 😂
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:49 pm

StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:45 pm
J. Kapp 11 wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:50 am

Why the improvement? PHP and I have been beating the drum. His name is Ezra Cleveland. We've all said that if you give Cousins some time, he will thrive. If you turn him into Patrick Mahomes and force him to scramble, he's going to flounder. Go back to the Green Bay game, when Cleveland was inserted at right guard. Since that time, he's been sacked exactly half as often as he was in the first six games. We're giving him time to throw. That includes the game against the Bears, who rush the passer really well. As a result, Kirk is lighting it up at a 124 passer rating with only 1 INT on a bobble by Thielen. Since Cleveland's insertion, our O-line has actually become a strength. When was the last time we said that in Minnesota? And guess what? When Cleveland has been out with injury, we haven't been as good.
Brett Jones is our second highest graded offensive lineman. He has given up 2 pressures total in 2 games. Cleveland has given up 10 in 4. Cleveland is 86th out of 90 qualifying guards in pass blocking grade. Overall he is 71st.

The real difference is the Vikings figured out they need to run Cook more and we are facing the softer part of the schedule. Not one of the worst RGs in the league.
You’re hanging your hat pretty heavily on PFF rankings right now. Go watch Baldy’s breakdown of Cleveland and what he’s done for this offense. Anyone can type in “Ezra Cleveland PFF grade” into google. Remember when Pat Elflein was graded as one of our better lineman if not the best lineman at one point? Yeah. Using PFF as a reference is one thing but it sure isn’t the end all be all either.

Them needing to run cook more doesn’t make much sense to me. They’ve been pounding him all season. What has changed in regards to that? Nothing. It’s the fact they no longer have a swinging door at RG that was getting thrown around like a rag doll. Cook has been shut down for the better part of two games now. Granted, Jones has been in, not Cleveland but either way, a huge reason is the fact that Samia is out. It’s helped in the passing game tremendously.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by J. Kapp 11 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:28 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:49 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:45 pm


Brett Jones is our second highest graded offensive lineman. He has given up 2 pressures total in 2 games. Cleveland has given up 10 in 4. Cleveland is 86th out of 90 qualifying guards in pass blocking grade. Overall he is 71st.

The real difference is the Vikings figured out they need to run Cook more and we are facing the softer part of the schedule. Not one of the worst RGs in the league.
You’re hanging your hat pretty heavily on PFF rankings right now. Go watch Baldy’s breakdown of Cleveland and what he’s done for this offense. Anyone can type in “Ezra Cleveland PFF grade” into google. Remember when Pat Elflein was graded as one of our better lineman if not the best lineman at one point? Yeah. Using PFF as a reference is one thing but it sure isn’t the end all be all either.

Them needing to run cook more doesn’t make much sense to me. They’ve been pounding him all season. What has changed in regards to that? Nothing. It’s the fact they no longer have a swinging door at RG that was getting thrown around like a rag doll. Cook has been shut down for the better part of two games now. Granted, Jones has been in, not Cleveland but either way, a huge reason is the fact that Samia is out. It’s helped in the passing game tremendously.
Baldinger? Come on, PHP. What serious fan would listen to a guy who actually played the offensive line in the NFL? It’s far better to go by the grade of some out-of-work slob in his underwear living in his parents’ basement who got cut from his JV team, right? :lol:

And you just hit the nail on the head. Cleveland has been out for the past two games, Brett Jones has been in, and Cook has struggled. Coincidence?

But wait ... pass blocking grades from the guy in the donut-stained wifebeater are what count. Silly me.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by S197 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:29 pm

psjordan wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:37 pm
S197 wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:08 pm
The problem is the Vikings don't have the luxury of moving on from Cousins if he doesn't perform. If he plays like a $2M QB to end the year, they're still on the hook. And not just for 2021 but also 2022. That's huge and my main gripe. He was extended too early and with a sweetheart deal. I haven't seen enough to warrant the amount of guaranteed money they gave him.
Overall I'd love to have a "better" QB situation on our team, but I really think "competent and above" QB's and their agents by far have the upper hand nowadays. "Extended too early with a sweetheart deal" is definitely not outside the norm from a typical NFL team's fans perspective.

I just think almost every NFL team has to live with bull@!#$ contracts for their QB. Very, very few starting, veteran QB contracts have been "team friendly" in the last 10 years outside of the Brady years in NE.

Forgetting rookie contracts, I think there's only two groups of QB's out there, and one group is mighty small. Mahomes and Rogers, maybe one could argue Rothlisberger/Wilson - have contracts that seem like "we can't pay this guy enough" to their fan bases. I feel like you are chiding Rick because we don't have a QB in this group, which is exceptionally talented and exceptionally small.

The other group of QBs, Cousins/Goff/Wentz/Brees/Bridgewater/Tannehill/Ryan/Garoppollo/Stafford/Carr etc., and even TB Brady, all seem like "sweetheart deals" to me (IOW seemingly paid too much vs production) and I'd guess most of their fan base feels the same. I mean Stafford has a $135M contract $92M guaranteed, and has never won a playoff game, but we constantly paintball Spielman for our QB situation?

I just think it's the market for guys who can play QB well enough to start in the NFL. You HAVE to extend them with "too much" money and "too much" guaranteed.

As fans we just have to hold our noses on what our QB is making. Just like about 28 other teams. IMO anyways.
I'd probably put Brees in the top tier, granted he's on the decline but he's still extremely productive. And I get your point, due to the importance of the position, QB's are always going to get big contracts that seem ridiculous at signing. But Cousins is next level. Lets take a look at contracts by their largest cap number:

Kirk Cousins: $45 million
Matt Stafford: $33 million
Goff: $34.6 million
Wentz: $34.6 million
Bridgewater: $26 million
Tannehill: $34 million
Ryan: $41.6 million
Garoppolo: $27 million
Carr: $22.1 million

Stafford has been bleeding the Lions for a long time now. And they're not exactly the franchise I think the Vikings want to emulate. Matt Ryan did a number of restructurings to help with their cap situation but his contract is still obviously weighing them down. Another franchise I don't think should be emulated. And keep in mind Cousins' extension came on the heels of a 3-year 100% fully guaranteed no-trade contract. Something that has never happened in the NFL before.

Not even guys like Russell Wilson or Aaron Rodgers are going to make over $40 million. We're literally paying our QB like he's Patrick Mahomes. And here's the other thing, not all of those contracts above are guaranteed like Cousins' contract will. Not effectively two years before they start. The only other team that's somewhat in a similar situation is the Falcons with Ryan and they're a 4-win team because of it. Now, you could argue that the Vikings don't pay Cousins $45 million, they could do ANOTHER extension and lower the cap that year. But as I mentioned in a previous post, guaranteed money means just that, it's guaranteed. You can push it around but at the end of the day, you need to pay it eventually. And it's not like Cousins is going to sign a $20M APY contract going forward when he knows he's due $40M. There's a reason he signs short 3-year contracts, it's so he can double and triple dip. And of course that would mean the Vikings would be tied to him even longer.

Think about it from an optionality standpoint. Lets say we were to draft Lawrence/Fields/Lance or anyone else next year. This is the options Rick has left the team. You can cut Cousins and he'll play for another team. And the Vikings will be paying him $31 million to play for someone else. Plus another $10 million cap hit in 2022. Or, you can let the rookie learn under Cousins for a year and then have Cousins hold a clipboard in 2022. And the Vikings will pay Cousins $45 million to hold a clipboard. That's it, those are the only two options I'm supposed to be okay our GM came up with because remember his $45M is guaranteed BEFORE next year starts. Not before 2022, the beginning of the 2021 NFL year. So basically what I'm saying is the odds we draft anyone and/or move on from Cousins is effectively zero. He could throw 3 picks a game until the end of the season and what are we going to do about it?

The only way Rick comes out of this looking good is if Cousins continues to play like he has over the last 5-games. He's yet to show he can do that but it's the only outcome I can think of where we're not in 2022 and everyone is saying why the #### are we paying this guy $45 million?
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StumpHunter
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by StumpHunter » Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:44 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:49 pm
StumpHunter wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:45 pm


Brett Jones is our second highest graded offensive lineman. He has given up 2 pressures total in 2 games. Cleveland has given up 10 in 4. Cleveland is 86th out of 90 qualifying guards in pass blocking grade. Overall he is 71st.

The real difference is the Vikings figured out they need to run Cook more and we are facing the softer part of the schedule. Not one of the worst RGs in the league.
You’re hanging your hat pretty heavily on PFF rankings right now. Go watch Baldy’s breakdown of Cleveland and what he’s done for this offense. Anyone can type in “Ezra Cleveland PFF grade” into google. Remember when Pat Elflein was graded as one of our better lineman if not the best lineman at one point? Yeah. Using PFF as a reference is one thing but it sure isn’t the end all be all either.

Them needing to run cook more doesn’t make much sense to me. They’ve been pounding him all season. What has changed in regards to that? Nothing. It’s the fact they no longer have a swinging door at RG that was getting thrown around like a rag doll. Cook has been shut down for the better part of two games now. Granted, Jones has been in, not Cleveland but either way, a huge reason is the fact that Samia is out. It’s helped in the passing game tremendously.
Don't like PFF now that it is inconvenient to your point? Interesting.

Fine then, let's look at how the tackles opposite Cleveland have performed compared to other games:

Atlanta's Grady Jarret: 2nd most pressures on the season at 6, 2nd most hits on the QB at 2.

GB's Lowry and Clark: Both had the most tackles of their season against the Vikings, and Lowry notched his only sack of the year.
Cleveland did do a good job in this game though in limited pass blocking and a lot of run blocking.

Detroit Lion's Nick Williams: Williams has two games with pressures this season and had a career game against the Vikings with 3 pressures, and 2 hits on the QB and 3 stops. His other game with pressure came against the Houston Texans btw, a team with the worst starting guards in football. Must just be a coincidence.

Chicago Bears Hicks: 3 pressures in just 3 quarters of play. Even the most deluded of Vikings fans will admit he was destroying Cleveland before getting hurt.

Those are his four games. 2 against 2 of the best DTs in football which is no easy task, but Nick Williams is one of the worst tackles in football and he had a career game.

As far as the run game goes, Cooks best and worst YPA came with Cleveland in the lineup and his average YPA is indeed higher in the 3 games Cleveland started at 5.67 than Cooks average on the season, 5.2. Is that .47 YPA, a number skewed significantly by the Detroit game, really enough to give Cleveland credit for turning the team around? What happened against Atlanta when Cook wasn't available?

In fact, what is the common factor in all 3 blowout losses? I will give you a hint: 12, 14, 0.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by psjordan » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:42 am

S197 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:29 pm
Think about it from an optionality standpoint. Lets say we were to draft Lawrence/Fields/Lance or anyone else next year. This is the options Rick has left the team. You can cut Cousins and he'll play for another team. And the Vikings will be paying him $31 million to play for someone else. Plus another $10 million cap hit in 2022. Or, you can let the rookie learn under Cousins for a year and then have Cousins hold a clipboard in 2022. And the Vikings will pay Cousins $45 million to hold a clipboard.
A few points from my perspective. And really I'm just typing stuff waiting for the games to start...

First, teams will eat what they have to eat to get their "franchise" QB, i.e., the Cardinals and how they got to Murray. Eating $20-40M and cutting a recent first rounder is nothing compared to getting a franchise QB, so I think if the Vikes were anywhere near shooting range for that young QB they would not care one iota what Kirk is owed.

My caveat here is that I'm concerned we were not able to trade up to get JJ, which obviously worked out great for us, but fact remains we were unable to trade up to get the guy we wanted. Could we move up for a QB? I have my doubts our front office has that kind of conviction. Of course I have no idea if we have made offers to team who picked QB's in the top 8 picks in the past few years. But if we did, we obviously did not have the conviction to offer more to close the deal. I think we'd all be fine with eating $40M and a few #1's if we had Herbert, but I don't see our FO making that kind of move. Of course if we did, we might be 3-8 like they are and asking how we move forward, but we'd have our QB. If the Chargers do not win a SB in the next 5-8 years will it have been worth it?

Second, and this is my overall point I guess, we are not in an unusual position in the NFL (I'll come back to this). We are floundering to find our franchise QB. So are the vast majority of teams. And I really do not think it's unreasonable for our staff to feel if we get the right things around Kirk we can make a run. They may be dead wrong, and it's apparently the opposite of the GB stance (to Rodgers ire), but I do not think it's an unreasonable position. I mean if GB does not win it all this year, you don't think there's any justified shade on using a high pick on Love? Maybe that cost them a SB win this year for goodness sake. So there is likely downside in just about every direction - sure, you can keep swinging at the "next QB" but if you are not winning SB's in the meantime AND your team seems one or two pieces away, there should be critical review of the swings at QB that match those thrown at not taking the chance. Just for the record however, I think Love will be a good one.

So, we have a long time veteran GM who is in the same position as the majority of NFL teams, with no top-five QB or even a plan (that we know of) on the horizon. Does that mean he absolutely stinks at what he does? For me it's hard to go there. IMO if you are on the verge of being fired you should be in the bottom third of your profession, and I just don't think Rick is there.

I do however think Zim and staff are Mendoza-line guys and they should be getting warm fannies from where they sit. A few more WTF losses and this coaching staff should be finding realtors IMO.
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by VikingPaul73 » Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:09 am

Has there been steady improvement or is it strictly level of competition? Lot's of good points on both sides in this thread. The good news is that we have 2 road games remaining against playoff teams (including the likely #1 seed in the NFC). These two games should tell us a lot about where this team is trending.

I will say..... this is the most excited/optimistic I've been about a 5-6 team since I can remember. I understand the level of competition argument, but I really do think this is the best OL we've had in a long time. Draft an OG early next year and keep Reiff and this can be a top 10 OL. Cook is the best RB in the NFL. AT is AT. JJ is the most exciting Viking rookie since AD and is already a star. I am still worried about "bad Kirk" showing up, but I have to admit he's looked great lately with a reasonably clean pocket.

On D, obviously there are more ???. But Pierce will help tremendously in the Running D. And Gladney and Dantzler are looking better and better every week and with (hopefully) a normal offseason should hit the ground running in 2021. Ditto for Wonnum. EK is all pro. Smith is slowing down but still a good S. some HUGE question marks this offseason:
1. Will Hunter be fully healthy to start next year? This is the biggest ? for this D next year. If he's back at full strength it helps on so many levels!
2. Barr, Harris, Wilson - will they be back? Likely not so potential holes at LB and S which will have to be addressed in the draft (or maybe Harrison Hand??)
3. Need a pass rushing DT to put next to Pierce. Stephen is serviceable in running situations, but a pass Rusher he is not.

the $45M 2022 contract looks insane and potentially roster crippling, but hopefully Rob B can do something about this between now and then. I for one will enjoy watching this rookie class (which is potentially a blockbuster draft!!) continue to develop over the last 5 weeks and look forward to the offseason decisions and the Draft!!! Really really looking forward to Tampa and NO to gauge where this team is at!!
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Re: 'Hey, Teddy': Vikings Laud Bridgewater Before QB's Return to Play Minnesota

Post by Pondering Her Percy » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:38 am

StumpHunter wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:44 pm
Pondering Her Percy wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:49 pm


You’re hanging your hat pretty heavily on PFF rankings right now. Go watch Baldy’s breakdown of Cleveland and what he’s done for this offense. Anyone can type in “Ezra Cleveland PFF grade” into google. Remember when Pat Elflein was graded as one of our better lineman if not the best lineman at one point? Yeah. Using PFF as a reference is one thing but it sure isn’t the end all be all either.

Them needing to run cook more doesn’t make much sense to me. They’ve been pounding him all season. What has changed in regards to that? Nothing. It’s the fact they no longer have a swinging door at RG that was getting thrown around like a rag doll. Cook has been shut down for the better part of two games now. Granted, Jones has been in, not Cleveland but either way, a huge reason is the fact that Samia is out. It’s helped in the passing game tremendously.
Don't like PFF now that it is inconvenient to your point? Interesting.

Fine then, let's look at how the tackles opposite Cleveland have performed compared to other games:

Atlanta's Grady Jarret: 2nd most pressures on the season at 6, 2nd most hits on the QB at 2.

GB's Lowry and Clark: Both had the most tackles of their season against the Vikings, and Lowry notched his only sack of the year.
Cleveland did do a good job in this game though in limited pass blocking and a lot of run blocking.

Detroit Lion's Nick Williams: Williams has two games with pressures this season and had a career game against the Vikings with 3 pressures, and 2 hits on the QB and 3 stops. His other game with pressure came against the Houston Texans btw, a team with the worst starting guards in football. Must just be a coincidence.

Chicago Bears Hicks: 3 pressures in just 3 quarters of play. Even the most deluded of Vikings fans will admit he was destroying Cleveland before getting hurt.

Those are his four games. 2 against 2 of the best DTs in football which is no easy task, but Nick Williams is one of the worst tackles in football and he had a career game.

As far as the run game goes, Cooks best and worst YPA came with Cleveland in the lineup and his average YPA is indeed higher in the 3 games Cleveland started at 5.67 than Cooks average on the season, 5.2. Is that .47 YPA, a number skewed significantly by the Detroit game, really enough to give Cleveland credit for turning the team around? What happened against Atlanta when Cook wasn't available?

In fact, what is the common factor in all 3 blowout losses? I will give you a hint: 12, 14, 0.
When did I ever once say I dont like PFF? I simply said using it as a reference is one thing, using it as the end all-be all is another. And I'd much rather listen to someone that actually played OL in the NFL over what PFF says. Baldy never had to do that film breakdown of Cleveland. It was just obvious that with Cleveland in the lineup we have been much better. And you mention the Atlanta game.... it was Clevelands first career start. Bottom line is, the protection has been better and the pocket is not collapsing nearly as often on Cousins as it was when Samia was in there. Cleveland has been a huge reason why this offense has taken a leap.
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